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[MBTI General] short rant on NFs

Jack Flak

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Note: I tend to sound outraged and super-invested when arguing or debating something. I'm actually neither... just enthusiastic.
*eats apple* Do you talk this way to your psychiatrist as well? lol.

Yes, decisions based on feeling can indeed make people appear flaky. Being that around half of all decisions are feeling based, this should come as no surprise.

I came up with an example on the spot of something light, which might still offend someone. It's something anyone could do, so I'm surprised at the objection. Of course the average NF cares about people--I could come up with another example based on that: Instead of a band, it's an old friend come to visit. Then you have to prioritize among people, possibly make an F decision, and likely trust whatever choice you make to be the best one, ignoring any criticism.
 

phoenix13

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*eats apple* Do you talk this way to your psychiatrist as well? lol.

Yes, decisions based on feeling can indeed make people appear flaky. Being that around half of all decisions are feeling based, this should come as no surprise.

I came up with an example on the spot of something light, which might still offend someone. It's something anyone could do, so I'm surprised at the objection. Of course the average NF cares about people--I could come up with another example based on that: Instead of a band, it's an old friend come to visit. Then you have to prioritize among people, possibly make an F decision, and likely trust whatever choice you make to be the best one, ignoring any criticism.


Oh come on, your example wasn't at all offensive. The trusting judgements and ignoring any criticism sounds awfully Ni... but then I'm right back where I started. Fuggit, I'm going to bed, and I'm taking my F'n with me ;).
 

Jack Flak

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Oh come on, your example wasn't at all offensive. The trusting judgements and ignoring any criticism sounds awfully Ni... but then I'm right back where I started. Fuggit, I'm going to bed, and I'm taking my F'n with me ;).
I meant the jilted party could be offended.

I can use functions in arguments if that's the modus operandi: People make decisions with Feeling and Thinking. They gather information (however accurate) with Sensing and Intuition. This is why F&T are called judging functions and S&N are called perceiving functions. In other words, people don't make decisions with S or N.
 

animenagai

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i felt really offended till i saw that it was sakuraba posting. funny that.
 

CzeCze

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NF's in my experience are the kings and queens of the following back-handed apologies:

- I'm sorry you feel that way
- I didn't mean to bring it up
- I'm sorry it upset you
- I don't know how I could've acted otherwise

etc... none of which actually acknowledges any fault on their own part except for unintentionally causing your negative emotions, but never, never for your emotion being VALID because what they did was WRONG.

Ahahahahhaha!

Dude, I've taken conflict resolution and 'communication' classes and I'll have you know, that's what you are SUPPOSED to say!

Hahahahaha.

BTW, it's actually part of an overall validation tactic. Your feelings are valid, my feelings are valid, we're all valid. It's a happy flippin' world! :laugh: I don't things those sentences in themselves are invalidating, but tone and context color in the rest.

And you NT's are so funny, wanting people to say, "I'm wrong, you're right." :harhar:

I know an INTP who said almost the exact same thing to someone she was arguing with when that was said ie "I'm sorry you feel that way". The INTP shot back "That's not a real apology." And I remember thinking, "Umm... I don't think that's *meant* to be an actual apology, because that girl obviously doesn't think she's done anything 'wrong' -- and I have to agree with her!"

I only know from my own experiences that most of the time in most conflicts I don't think there's a clear "right" or "wrong" or one person who was 'bad' and the other who was 'faultless'. Different personalities = conflict. Different people = conflict. Such is life.

Also, I think it may be a communication/intent/interpretation issue.

"I'm sorry [I made you] feel that way."

Better now?

:D
 

Jack Flak

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Dude, I've taken conflict resolution and 'communication' classes and I'll have you know, that's what you are SUPPOSED to say!
I'm sure there are different schools of thought on the issue, such as...

BTW, it's actually part of an overall validation tactic. Your feelings are valid, my feelings are valid, we're all valid. It's a happy flippin' world! :laugh: I don't things those sentences in themselves are invalidating, but tone and context color in the rest.
I don't know if I can speak for substitute when I say it's the obvious insincerity which would be the annoyance in a case like that--for me, at least. I can take plenty of brute force (like "go to hell, you're wrong, and your brain is made of shit, and here's why:"), but misdirection is never appreciated. Diffr'nt strokes for diffr'nt folks, I suppose.
 

Anja

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"I'm sorry you feel that way." Sounds to me like an indirect way to tell the person the problem is theirs and doesn't acknowledge that one's own act contributed to the problem.


The concept of "You MADE me feel. . ." implies that one has no control over their feelings and is at the mercy of others.

If one is genuinely sorry it's better communication to say, "I did _______, and you feel __________ and I am sorry." That acknowledges that two people helped create the situation and implies that two people will contribute to the solution.

Get into excuses and reasons and you'll lose the conflict resolution focus. Focus on the other person instead of one's self will also muddy the waters. Each person needs to own and express their own feelings and needs.
 

Domino

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I'll apologize if I've done something wrong, but I won't be lead. If I see what I've done has caused upset, but I still believe what I said was accurate to the situation, then I will say I'm sorry for hurting the other person because my aim wasn't to cause harm, and I *DO* feel their agitation and upset inside myself. I'm sorry to cause hurt with someone I care about. But I won't go back on what I said.
 

Brooke

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I'll apologize if I've done something wrong, but I won't be lead. If I see what I've done has caused upset, but I still believe what I said was accurate to the situation, then I will say I'm sorry for hurting the other person because my aim wasn't to cause harm, and I *DO* feel their agitation and upset inside myself. I'm sorry to cause hurt with someone I care about. But I won't go back on what I said.

I agree. If I don't feel like what I said was wrong, then I won't apologize for it, but I will apologize for upsetting them.

Also, this whole thing about NFs being uber selfish is just... pissing me off. I mean, in a friendly way (I love a good argument), but still pissed. I tend to (and I wonder, do other INFJs do this?) work so hard to protect those around me's view of the world and their feelings that I forget or just decide to ignore my own needs. Now, I'm not saying I'll forget to eat or something, but I do things for them even if I REALLY don't feel like it. Thereby kind of denying myself a nice time or whatever. And yeah, I know it's kind of self destructive (at least, my shrink assures me it is:D) but I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Anybody else have this problem?
 

epsilon72

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Are NF's loyal? IME... No. They are flighty. Never have their priorities straight. For people who are so "people-orientated" a lot of them dont have many close friends.

IME Sp and Sj are far more loyal. Sticking with their true friends when they most need them. NFs are so wrapped up in themselves. I think they are the most selfish people out there. Ever talk to an NF on the phone? Garauntee the conversation will always find a way back to the NF's favorite topic.... themself.

However, NF's are prone to the "holding onto a shitty relationship way too long" syndrome. Could that even be considered loyal? It seems like something else to me. Neediness, clinginess. Not loyalty.


They're also hypocrites. Will leech onto you and depend on you for everything. For emotional stability. For friendship. Will want to share their whole life with you. They want to tell you all their problems. But as soon as you need them for something, it's never as important as when THEY have a problem.

These are the type of people... You could save their life one day. And they next day they would end your friendship because they need to "find themself and start over".
I dunno if the bolded parts would be true for all NF's....my INFP friend for instance is quite the opposite of those statements.
 

nolla

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I don't know if I can speak for substitute when I say it's the obvious insincerity which would be the annoyance in a case like that--for me, at least. I can take plenty of brute force (like "go to hell, you're wrong, and your brain is made of shit, and here's why:"), but misdirection is never appreciated. Diffr'nt strokes for diffr'nt folks, I suppose.

Hmm... I would feel annoyed with a fake apology, but I'd feel worse if they said my brain is full of shit. The first case would mean that they don't agree and are maybe hurt, but they don't hate me. The second case, I wouldn't have any clue if they now hate me or not.

But, at least to me it is true that it is very hard for me to apologize, even when I know I was wrong. I still can say I was wrong. I just wont apologize.
 

Jack Flak

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Hmm... I would feel annoyed with a fake apology, but I'd feel worse if they said my brain is full of shit. The first case would mean that they don't agree and are maybe hurt, but they don't hate me. The second case, I wouldn't have any clue if they now hate me or not. But, at least to me it is true that it is very hard for me to apologize, even when I know I was wrong. I still can say I was wrong. I just wont apologize.
I think the resilience to direct insults is probably an INTP thing, ENTP to lesser extent. Maybe we're just used to being around pissed off NTs? LOL.
 

mlittrell

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just what mbticentral needs lol

chill dude or dudet, whatever you might be
 

Lady_X

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StoryOfMyLife

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:shock:

Wow...such a brutal attack.

Couldn't it be said of any human being that deep down, their favorite topic would be themselves? We're all a little bit selfish, I don't think that goes completely in accordance to what type we are. If you're a living, breathing, functioning human being, there's at least an ounce of selfishness inside of you. The level of conceitedness in a person could be subject to change depending on the person-- not the type. Take into consideration, as well, what each individual has grown up with, or how they have grown up...it's different for each of us. At least, that's my take on it. Perhaps I'm wrong, as I very well could be. [Yes! I don't always have to be right! It is apparently said of the NT types that they shove it down someone's throat if they believe they are right about something-- but I won't dwell..].

As for NF types being flighty or disloyal, that could be a misinterpretation. Must depend on the situation, of course, but perhaps an NF would 'take flight' so to speak if they somehow feel cornered by something? A fight or flight instinct is imbued within all people...all animals, even. I could see it easily being interpreted as being disloyal, but that, again, might depend on the events leading up to the sudden departure. Different points of view with lack of communication is going to provide some confusion, after all. :blush:

...'for people who are so 'people-oriented' a lot of them don't have many close friends..'

This statement by itself bothers me...it shows a lack of understanding of NF types. I'm not completely 'in the know', however, from what I have learned already-- to be true about myself [le-gasp, I'm talking about myself, how dare I?!]-- AND about other NF and NF possibles I have read about/know in person...we don't let people get close for our own personal reasons. It's a choice, not because we're not 'people-oriented'. What is the worth of having several 'close friends' who we think we can fully trust or connect to...when we can have a close-knit few whom we know will be there for us no matter what-- and vice-versa. I've stuck by friends who have done wrong by me, or who have lied to me merely because we all make mistakes. I've also dropped friends for the same reasons, but the circumstances were far worse than a white lie or petty arguement-- however, doesn't any person retain the right to drop somebody from their life who offers nothing but negativity, or whom they feel has betrayed their trust or is inherently bad for them?

These NFs being referred to, as others have stated, may have been unbalanced or maybe were not NF types at all and were only misunderstood as such...in any case, you can't generalize an entire group of people based on only a few experiences. It'd be like having three kids come into your store and they shop-lifted-- then assuming because of this, all kids of that age group must be shop-lifters.

Utter nonsense... :steam:

*This noted upon noticing sakuraba's 'x' in the place of T or F*
I wouldn't be bashing another type if you don't even know what you are yourself...just saying...you could very well be including yourself in your own bad-mouthing...
 

Anja

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No problem. Theres a huge difference between being self-focussed and being self-centered. The one is valuable for being a good friend and the other isn't.

Pehaps you're just meeting and befriending the wrong folks? Work on your feelers and not by observing labels?
 

littledarling

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Are NF's loyal? IME... No. They are flighty. Never have their priorities straight. For people who are so "people-orientated" a lot of them dont have many close friends.

IME Sp and Sj are far more loyal. Sticking with their true friends when they most need them. NFs are so wrapped up in themselves. I think they are the most selfish people out there. Ever talk to an NF on the phone? Garauntee the conversation will always find a way back to the NF's favorite topic.... themself.

However, NF's are prone to the "holding onto a shitty relationship way too long" syndrome. Could that even be considered loyal? It seems like something else to me. Neediness, clinginess. Not loyalty.


They're also hypocrites. Will leech onto you and depend on you for everything. For emotional stability. For friendship. Will want to share their whole life with you. They want to tell you all their problems. But as soon as you need them for something, it's never as important as when THEY have a problem.

These are the type of people... You could save their life one day. And they next day they would end your friendship because they need to "find themself and start over".

You are absolutely, unequivically, correct. I have been all of those things, if not more, at some point in my life. But to state that somehow you are none of those things, could never been any of those things, or that ONLY NF's are those things, is in my opinion, incorrect. Everyone is selfish. It's the human condition and it is not related to personality "type".
 

Anja

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I was wondering if that wasn't why the Ex is there in the signature. You've noticed the personal conflict, I think, little darling.
 

INA

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You are absolutely, unequivically, correct. I have been all of those things, if not more, at some point in my life. But to state that somehow you are none of those things, could never been any of those things, or that ONLY NF's are those things, is in my opinion, incorrect. Everyone is selfish. It's the human condition and it is not related to personality "type".

How do you know he would be incorrect to say he hasn't been those things? Is that an exercise to make your actions more palatable to yourself?
 
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