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[ENFP] sp/sx ENFPs: Wierdos? :)

sculpting

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I know exactly what you're saying unfortunately. From where I'm coming from, this folks are like unintentional psychopaths.

1 and 4 I think it would be better for them and everyone around to be quiet and not say anything. I don't know what's going on in their heads when they say such things. They shock everyone. I wish it was funny or logical like it is sometimes to them but it's just VERY akward. It's above brutal honesty, almost like complete lack of social intelligence. It's like watching grown ups acting like nuts but in a totaly bad way. I feel embaressed for them. They can hurt others feelings and be oblivious about it. But the switch you're talking about is what makes them hard not to love..

I think it is total lack of an Fe filter...I have had a lot of interesting discussion with [MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] about if some enfps can really use Fe or not. I do know we can use Te to memorize social patterns to a certain extent and that, since we are motivated by Fi to (mostly) be kind, we try to behave reasonably. However perhaps if Nardi strapped his EEG on so/sx enfps, he'd find they really are utilizing some of the parts of thier brains that the FJs do. I really dont know.

I have no Fe filter, personally, so often I do exactly what you say-say nothing. Thus the introverted apperance.

2 and 3 yes and sounds like OCD. Maybe they're trying to escape from what is going on inside them, like what's been said in 1 and 4.

I think you have a good suggestion with the OCD like behaviors. I tend to link them back to inferior Si perhaps.

Obviously I find it hard to be around them and avoid them eventhough I know they are not bad people just immature on a whole new level. A lot of people do this to them which it understandable as they can pretty easily make you hate them. But I don't think they deserve it.

:smile: Hate them? Not at all, I actually really enjoy them-they feel like extroverted INTJs. Once you recognize that thier bluntness is unintentional and isnt personal, even when it inadvertantly is, I find I just accept them as being who they are. It is actually REALLY nice to deal with them in some ways, because the convos are all about the problem at hand and nobody's ego gets involved, no hurt feelings, so you can hammer like crazy on ideas, with no resentment.

With the exception of stuttering, this just sounds like ENFP's in Ne-Te loops. I'm in a bit of this funk now, so threads like "How to use Te without being a jerk" are really interesting to me. But to say that there are ENFP's that just are this way, like permanently.. I'm not sure if I agree with that. People in Ne-Te loops do look a bit weird though.
So do ENFP's with good access to all functions, lol.

Most of these folks that are in this category are older men, 40 plus. I do wonder if it is an endpoint of sorts...the NeTe is a serious business face, then they put back on the ridiculous goof face, then back to the serious business face.

Orobas, do you have any thoughts on why there would be such a clusterf*ck of unhealthy ENFPs in your workplace? (I'd love to know what kind of HR / Psych screening test is skewing the results to uber ENFPness.)

Hehehe, do you really think they are unhealthy or are they just weirdos? They dont seem to do the damage that an NeFeTi does to other people. They seem to be fairly happy and they seem to be fairly competent-people just think they are weirdos.
 

Such Irony

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I agree these folks are totally not entps. An entp can be piercing, but typically they are very deliberate when they do so (ignoring inadvertant debating when younger) and not overtly blunt and blundering in thier speech.

I have always felt that Somatic Narcissism aligns very nicely with SeFeTi and Cerebral Narcissism aligns very nicely with NeFeTi. Having spent a great deal of time studying a particular entp man who was NeFeTi, it strikes me that it was not simply a choice for him to "not be self-centered". His entire mindset was altered and in his mind his worldview seemed very reasonable.

What's the difference between somatic and cerebral narcissism?

I recently began working with a new company in which they give verious sorts of screening tests to all applicants. The result is about 70% ENFPs.

The increased concentration allows for a lot of fun observation of how many shades of neurotic enfps can really be under stress, but I also have had a chance to observe the much more Te sided ENFPs. I suspect these guys are sp/sx as the so/sx enfps have a VERY different feel to them (sorta like cuddly.honest, used car salesmen).

Things I notice:

1. Very poor social skills at times-totally oblivious about ettiquette-Fe blind. Thy will vary from being very silent and watching and then just blurt out inapproiate things. Then they turn on the silly switch and can become very goofy and silly, sweet.

2. Hyperanalytical, watching everything, tendency to fixate on certain types of information

3. Obsessed with patterns

4. Rude, excessively blurt, tend to stutter on words.

5. They look and act like STJs most of the time, but really strange goofy ones.

Have you guys seen these folks around?

Yep. I know one who tested ENFP and also agrees with that typing. At first I thought there is no way she could be ENFP because she can be overly rude and blunt. Add to that someone who can be a stickler for certain rules and things must be a certain way. So I figured she was just another mistyped TJ type. Now that I think about she could be ENFP with a particularly well developed Te. She does have strong Ne and might in a Ne/Te loop.

I think that [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] fits your description to a T.

I think so too.
 

sculpting

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What's the difference between somatic and cerebral narcissism?
.

Both are defined by sense of grandiose elitism and a feeling of being socially more elite and better than other people-more deserving. They also tend to exclude people who dont support thier self notion from being around them-extreme shunning of others. Somatic NPD is foucsed on things you have/own/how good you look. All people place some value in this stuff, but someone with NPD takes it to an extreme. Cerebral NPD takes this elitist notion and applies it to intelligence. There is a very real fixation on how clever they are. In reality, thier ideas can be quite questionable but they never really expose enough of them to allow for a full critique. I knew a man who likely would have qualified as cerebral NPD. He could be SO VERY SWEET and cloying, with extremely heavy Fe usage. Like he was starving for affection and attachment. But he used people terribly and then would drop them instantly, was obsessed with women. He also created so much conflict in my workplace due to creation of political battles and it was only after a year that we all understood he had never actually done any work-he seemed to feel above doing the actual work. It was like...like he felt the Fe conversations were the work, rather than the actual work? I dunno, very odd guy.

The NeTe folks dont seem to do this level of damage to others. The tend to take on extra work, rather than shrug it off and they tend to absorb blame. They do a lot of monday morning quarterbacking and can be prone to micromanaging. The "stutter" I think is something I noted in the "I'm sorry" thread. I think they cant figure out things to say, as they are driven to be authentic, so they start to say something and then stop, trying to figure out what they should say, then start again.

Instead of being sweet like NPD, they can appear cold and distant
Instead of being manipulative like NPD, they can appear hesitant to engage in interactions at a personal level at all
Instead of being honey-tongued, they are stutteringly silent
They do feel like they can "see" things other people cant, so there is a sense of cognitive superiority at times, but it is typically in very narrow slices related to thier area of expertice.
They are self-centric, and inconsiderate of others at times, but not out of disdain as in NPD-more just obliviousness.
If you get them to break into the goof mode-then they can be oddly sweet, but it is almost always 1:1
 

Esoteric Wench

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I'd say the ENFPs are a split across a couple of different sub-types..maybe 20% NeTe sp/sx, 10% NeFiTe so/sx and 60% NeFiTe sx/so.

Orobas, can you define the differences between

- NeTe sp/sx,
- NeFiTe so/sx, and
- NeFiTe sx/so.

I know on an intellectual level what the various Enneagram subtypes are, but I've never seen them paired with the JCFs like this before and I find it fascinating.
 

Viridian

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Hehehe, do you really think they are unhealthy or are they just weirdos? They dont seem to do the damage that an NeFeTi does to other people. They seem to be fairly happy and they seem to be fairly competent-people just think they are weirdos.

Both are defined by sense of grandiose elitism and a feeling of being socially more elite and better than other people-more deserving. They also tend to exclude people who dont support thier self notion from being around them-extreme shunning of others. Somatic NPD is foucsed on things you have/own/how good you look. All people place some value in this stuff, but someone with NPD takes it to an extreme. Cerebral NPD takes this elitist notion and applies it to intelligence. There is a very real fixation on how clever they are. In reality, thier ideas can be quite questionable but they never really expose enough of them to allow for a full critique. I knew a man who likely would have qualified as cerebral NPD. He could be SO VERY SWEET and cloying, with extremely heavy Fe usage. Like he was starving for affection and attachment. But he used people terribly and then would drop them instantly, was obsessed with women. He also created so much conflict in my workplace due to creation of political battles and it was only after a year that we all understood he had never actually done any work-he seemed to feel above doing the actual work. It was like...like he felt the Fe conversations were the work, rather than the actual work? I dunno, very odd guy.

The NeTe folks dont seem to do this level of damage to others. The tend to take on extra work, rather than shrug it off and they tend to absorb blame. They do a lot of monday morning quarterbacking and can be prone to micromanaging. The "stutter" I think is something I noted in the "I'm sorry" thread. I think they cant figure out things to say, as they are driven to be authentic, so they start to say something and then stop, trying to figure out what they should say, then start again.

Instead of being sweet like NPD, they can appear cold and distant
Instead of being manipulative like NPD, they can appear hesitant to engage in interactions at a personal level at all
Instead of being honey-tongued, they are stutteringly silent
They do feel like they can "see" things other people cant, so there is a sense of cognitive superiority at times, but it is typically in very narrow slices related to thier area of expertice.
They are self-centric, and inconsiderate of others at times, but not out of disdain as in NPD-more just obliviousness.
If you get them to break into the goof mode-then they can be oddly sweet, but it is almost always 1:1

So what you're saying is... ENTPs do more damage when in loops than ENFPs? Is that correct? :huh:
 

sculpting

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Orobas, can you define the differences between

- NeTe sp/sx,
- NeFiTe so/sx, and
- NeFiTe sx/so.

I know on an intellectual level what the various Enneagram subtypes are, but I've never seen them paired with the JCFs like this before and I find it fascinating.

oh, ha, that is just how i tend to clump them to be honest. [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] recently had a thread where most of the enfps said the descriptions dont feel right. There seem to be different variations on the enfp theme. For me roughly, the above groupings are sorta okay, but they are just a real sketchy start. For instance I didnt even know if these NeTe folks I was seeing were legit until I posted the thread-and other people have seen them as well.

Roughly, please give a lot of feedback and your corrections which would be delightful:

NeTe types seem to have an sp/sx social type. I think I have described them pretty well so far, so wont rehash.

NeFiTe so/sx folks feel really easy going and friendly and smooesy. The men can feel a bit TOO friendly, even sleazy, oddly evasive. They seem to be using Te to plan but it is hidden under a faux-Fe interaction style that can be really Ne and tend to blow off logical objections. This may sound like a negative description, but I find these folks tend to clash most in terms of value alignment with myself, especially the type 7's. Instead of being direct and dealing with things head on, they can use highly inductive communication techniques to lure others in. They also come across as snotty and arrogant and dismissive of others. I work with a young guy right now who is like this and he spends a lot of time smoozing with executives, but looks like an ass. I worked with a COO like this. He was known as the "silent assassin" at a 50,000 person company as he was so nice as he laid you off-he terrified people. Maybe these are just type 7s? (although you dont strike me as being this way, Ms Te warrior! :) )

NeFiTe sx/so- First I think this is too broad a clump and could suck wrt being a correct classification system and I dont think my "sx/so" is really correct at all. This is basically the rest of enfp-dom (Ha!) running the continuum from young kids who are still pretty NeFi to older folks in the workforce who are very serious and are NeFiTe. It could use refinement.

Hmm...

NeFi sx/sp could describe folks with borderline personality disorder.

(Sorry ^^ pretty lame :) )

So what you're saying is... ENTPs do more damage when in loops than ENFPs? Is that correct? :huh:

well...I am very much thinking aloud and jotting down ideas, so dont take them too seriously. I dont think it is a "loop", as much as a permenant formation of a personality sub-type through external pressure at a young age? And it may very well be that if you drop one of these NeTe folks into an Fe social group, they would cause a great deal of damage as they blunder about inadvertantly. If Fe is what holds the group together, and they Te the crap out of it, then they could be just as bad as an NeFeTi type person in a high Te group. I would actually love to hear other's experiences with this and how they perceive these folks to cause damage. [MENTION=15697]lost[/MENTION] said they seemed psychopathic...why is that exactly?
 

lost

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I would actually love to hear other's experiences with this and how they perceive these folks to cause damage. [MENTION=15697]lost[/MENTION] said they seemed psychopathic...why is that exactly?

Psychopaths wear mask of sanity. I'm not saying the guys we're talking about are insane. But they seem to have in abundance the very traits most desired by normal persons. And that very partially but still sort of fits the psycho definition. Read about it. I'll come back to it when I found time.
 

Cimarron

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[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] You mean ENFPs who seem to lack/not use a lot of Fi? Or that it's still obvious they use Fi, but the Ne and Te just come so clearly to the forefront? If the latter, quite a few ENFPs seem like that to me.

It seems that you meant both, because you listed NeTe and also NeFiTe kinds.
 

erikric

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I recently began working with a new company in which they give verious sorts of screening tests to all applicants. The result is about 70% ENFPs.

Sounds like a real fun way of getting nothing done :)

I hope you guys are in the business of making and selling ideas, otherwise I can't see how such a constellation of people could be profitable.

I do recognize a lot of the things you mention. It has gotten better with age. I shut up more now, and don't insult people when I try to be funny as much as I used to.
 

CzeCze

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I think that [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] fits your description to a T.

Haha. No.

Every applicant is prescreened with an abstract IQ test, pattern recognition test and then a personality screening test of unknown categorization-to assess for values. Only after poassing that do they get an interview. Certain positions seem to have particular attriutes of intorversion/extroversion that are being sought out as well. I spoke mistakenly-for dev roles it is a mix of INTJs, INTPs, then INFPs. For everything else, it is about 70% ENFPs.

I'd say the ENFPs are a split across a couple of different sub-types..maybe 20% NeTe sp/sx, 10% NeFiTe so/sx and 60% NeFiTe sx/so.

Ooh immediate thoughts:

The ENFP personality is linked with cognitive strengths (the IQ test) but in any case you employer just likes thee types for those roles so seems them out. Another possibility is self selecting. What roles are the ENFPs? Also, people may self type on the test to better fit what they think the employer wants.

When my friend did the Myers in nursing school she was the lone INTP in a sea of ESFJs. I think that was also a case of the three ^^ factors above.

I've been thinking more about your "Te ENFP" etc. inquiries on the board and I think now that some of the ENFPs you're speaking of are stressed or otherwise environment (nature vs nurture) example of ENFPs who "grew up" in a particular corporate culture that has no place and no pity for soft wuvy duty hippies.

I have 2 female ENFP friends who are very successful in their careers in corporate/tech/academia/business. They are bossy and in charge but still very ENFP. One would wear flip flops and bring green smoothies and teach yoga to her investment/corp accounting something something firm. The other works in tech so has a less orthodox corporate culture on the surface but she worked her way up from being a lowly temp by being extremely bossy (Te) and is now a project manager of sorts.

Isn't agent furring a boss lady too? Where are you [MENTION=12102]agentfurrina[/MENTION] (<-- prolly did not spell her name right)

Those two friends are very socially well adjusted and popular though. They succeeded partly because of not in spite of their people skills.

I think for ENFPs who have this weird Jekyll and Hyde personality and the things you mention, is it grossly unfair/inaccurate to say those people while technically well suited to their jobs just weren't cut out for the corporate environment? It's like sticking a square peg through a circle or vice versa, this is the best they could do.

I had an ENFP boss (very bad, she fits into your description more or less) and remember incidents with 2 other ENFPs who I know IRL and act like they are so nice and friendly but I had email convos with both about volunteering or work stuff and my impression was "wow what a bitch" in both cases. (1 guy, 1 girl). I dropped both from my "list of acquaintances" afterward. It's like all of a sudden they lose all ability to be even be civil and get incredibly rude. Personally I think thats weak and shows a lack of self integration.

ENFJs can flip fast but with them the anger or admonishment seems organic. It's believable. With an ENfP who developed specifically for work and not life (if that makes sense) it seems bizarre and extremely off putting.

I think if you've been forced to develop and use your Te and completely suppress your "fun carefree sensitive side" which is a big part of your personality and never really learned or developed a true eye for social context and rules and merely learned to mimic (again adapting to corporate culture), then yeah, you'll constantly be putting your foot in your mouth.

However, I think those kind of ENFPs are a special breed. Most of the ENFP females I know are very diplomatic. Then again, the ENFPs I know are more of the hippy/community organizer variety. It's a different culture, different values, different skill set developed. Also no doubt attracts different ENFPs (mostly)

Phew! So how's that for an answer? :p
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=1009]CzeCze[/MENTION]

How does he not fit the description?
 

Pre

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I recently began working with a new company in which they give verious sorts of screening tests to all applicants. The result is about 70% ENFPs.

The increased concentration allows for a lot of fun observation of how many shades of neurotic enfps can really be under stress, but I also have had a chance to observe the much more Te sided ENFPs. I suspect these guys are sp/sx as the so/sx enfps have a VERY different feel to them (sorta like cuddly.honest, used car salesmen).

Things I notice:

1. Very poor social skills at times-totally oblivious about ettiquette-Fe blind. Thy will vary from being very silent and watching and then just blurt out inapproiate things. Then they turn on the silly switch and can become very goofy and silly, sweet.

2. Hyperanalytical, watching everything, tendency to fixate on certain types of information

3. Obsessed with patterns

4. Rude, excessively blurt, tend to stutter on words.

5. They look and act like STJs most of the time, but really strange goofy ones.

Have you guys seen these folks around?

This is exactly like me!
 

Elfboy

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I think it is an ENFP sp/sx instinctual variant description perhaps-there are a significant number of these folks around.

yes
 

sculpting

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[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] You mean ENFPs who seem to lack/not use a lot of Fi? Or that it's still obvious they use Fi, but the Ne and Te just come so clearly to the forefront? If the latter, quite a few ENFPs seem like that to me.

It seems that you meant both, because you listed NeTe and also NeFiTe kinds.

I think I am just confused on exactly what I am seeing, so I swapped terms. These folks have a very strong sense of Fi but they dont display it in terms of overt caring-instead they work really, really hard at some goal or another that is value driven. If you get close to them, you see the caring side as they get kind goofy and will share stuff with you. Not well equipped wtih social graces. I think this may really be a reflection of an older sp/sx ENFP...

Other things I note are them being OCD and ADHD at the same time as Si and Ne are being torqued to make cognitive leaps. They also micro-manage like a mother fucker unless guided not to, and can be obnoxious in thier need for you to follow thier Si detail in a plan, typically some ridiculous detail or use of a particular word that allows them to "see" thier vision in your work, while being sloppy about all types of other things. They never stop working and judge results over amount of effort-you can work hard all day long and still fail in thier eyes. They will never fail to leap in and try and catch the ball-often resulting in a bit of a scuffle as they step on each other's toes in the process. They also have a tendency to Monday morining quarterback other people's work-as it can always be made better. They also seem to have serious guilt issues. One of the test questions is "whose fault is it when soemthing fails on a project?" and the answer is A) mine or B) someone elses. These guys all picked A. The end result is a combination of chaos and productivity, but I'll keep watching :)

The ENFP personality is linked with cognitive strengths (the IQ test) but in any case you employer just likes thee types for those roles so seems them out. Another possibility is self selecting. What roles are the ENFPs? Also, people may self type on the test to better fit what they think the employer wants.

When my friend did the Myers in nursing school she was the lone INTP in a sea of ESFJs. I think that was also a case of the three ^^ factors above..

Interestingly the first self-selection effect is that many folks get pissed when asked to take a test for employment, then dont bother. But after that different positions seem to have different selection criteria-for instance they look for introversion on development staff but extroversion in support and management. (The test isnt MBTI-it is home grown) That much they actually told us. I have also heard mention that the profiles they select for will identify things like "this type of person will feel like a victim when things become problematic and try and get other people to do thier work through asking for help". That a test could have that level of resolution seems questionable to me, so I dunno.

I've been thinking more about your "Te ENFP" etc. inquiries on the board and I think now that some of the ENFPs you're speaking of are stressed or otherwise environment (nature vs nurture) example of ENFPs who "grew up" in a particular corporate culture that has no place and no pity for soft wuvy duty hippies.

I have put some thought in this and I halfway agree with you-I do agree it is molded over a lifetime. But i think the result can be an so/sx or an sp/sx mold. The so/sx fends off issues with an Ne twist and an odd mimic of Fe-ish skills, where an sp/sx fends of stress by seeking to control things or hyperanalyze things with Te. Thus the so/sx ends up with better social skills, perhaps being flippant at times, and the sp/sx ends up being extremely analytical, and perhaps overly blunt and obnoxious at times.

An sx/sp enfp who exhibits a Te stress episode acts very bad. I recently watched this and it is like the guy had no conscious control over his Te and he became extremely tyrannical and HORRIBLE to other people on his team- "Just keep your mouth shut and do your job, who are you to think you can tell me how to better do my job?" while rattling off his credentials. Normally he is extremely sweet and an amazingly caring enfp, so it was a huge character shift. He aslo has almost no ability to detach his emo investment from his work product-He cant accept any critique at all without getting very defensive...

I have 2 female ENFP friends who are very successful in their careers in corporate/tech/academia/business. They are bossy and in charge but still very ENFP. One would wear flip flops and bring green smoothies and teach yoga to her investment/corp accounting something something firm. The other works in tech so has a less orthodox corporate culture on the surface but she worked her way up from being a lowly temp by being extremely bossy (Te) and is now a project manager of sorts.

Isn't agent furring a boss lady too? Where are you [MENTION=12102]agentfurrina[/MENTION] (<-- prolly did not spell her name right)

Those two friends are very socially well adjusted and popular though. They succeeded partly because of not in spite of their people skills.

I think for ENFPs who have this weird Jekyll and Hyde personality and the things you mention, is it grossly unfair/inaccurate to say those people while technically well suited to their jobs just weren't cut out for the corporate environment? It's like sticking a square peg through a circle or vice versa, this is the best they could do..

I know some enfps like this at work and they seem pretty happy. Sometimes they do strike me as the boss in "better off dead" though. Like it is an oozy, freindly sorta bossiness and not sincre in thier affection for you, which seems reasonable at work I guess. I suspect they think people like them more than they really do, however , and I think they may also over estimate the power of thier influence to some extent.

Oddly some the ENFPs I am describing are extremely successful. I didnt see these folks at all in biotech, but have seen several in IT, not sure why the diff. They tend to start small companies where all that matters are that you produce results-the deliverable takes the cake. Also highly focused on providing solutions to customers-they are rewarded by solving a problem for the customer others could not. One..the most amazing one..is famous for visiting a customer site and resolving every issue the customer had in a 30 day period after the site visit. I have such a man-crush on this guy. He is so amazing..like you sit in a room with him and you can just feel parts of his brain expanding and relaigning...It is sooo awesome. Totally hyepr focused-hyper active and interrupted all of us as we tried to present.

I had an ENFP boss (very bad, she fits into your description more or less) and remember incidents with 2 other ENFPs who I know IRL and act like they are so nice and friendly but I had email convos with both about volunteering or work stuff and my impression was "wow what a bitch" in both cases. (1 guy, 1 girl). I dropped both from my "list of acquaintances" afterward. It's like all of a sudden they lose all ability to be even be civil and get incredibly rude. Personally I think thats weak and shows a lack of self integration.

You mean after an email convo, you decided they were rude? Yikes. I have people do this to me sometimes-becuase in my brain when I type, I type thoughts, the words tend to lack emotion. If I am particularly focused, they can be very directive. Only long after the fact have people told me they were too blunt and I was totally taken aback as that wasnt the intent-I just was thinking about what I wrote. I have went back in a fairly formulaic way and learned to ask rather than tell and add fluffy openers and such so people dont take things the worng way, but it is something I have to plan-it isnt natural.

As you describe this I am recalling an interaction I had recently with an so/sx ENFP guy I worked with. We had a meeting and he was being all chilled out and suave-friendly and he seemed confused why I wasnt being goofy with him. In my own mind I was going "hmmm, dont you know it is thinking time? fun time can come in a few minutes, but right now is thinking time. Whya rent you thinking with me.?" Not in a mad way or angry or judgemental-more perpelxed as I like him quite a bit. He seemed puzzled and then I tried to smile and be friendly as he is a nice guy, and I didnt mean to be mean, but when I think I am very serious and focused on the topic at hand.

From your perspective, you would regard the inability to keep on a happy face to be rude? It feels so forced and when I am trying to think, it feels exhausting to pretend to be happy. Oddly I am having a lot of fun typically, and quite satisfied, but in the manner of a puppy playing with a chew toy with another puppy-its really fun to find the answer to a tough problem, but to do so I have to put on my serious face and focus.

You know I recently got shit from another so/sx enfp about being "bitter" when I was in this mode-oddly it is when I am at my most neutral and detached and trying to understand how the problem, not bitter!

It speaks to an interesting divide across our happy enfp family! :)

ENFJs can flip fast but with them the anger or admonishment seems organic. It's believable. With an ENfP who developed specifically for work and not life (if that makes sense) it seems bizarre and extremely off putt

I think if you've been forced to develop and use your Te and completely suppress your "fun carefree sensitive side" which is a big part of your personality and never really learned or developed a true eye for social context and rules and merely learned to mimic (again adapting to corporate culture), then yeah, you'll constantly be putting your foot in your mouth.

However, I think those kind of ENFPs are a special breed. Most of the ENFP females I know are very diplomatic. Then again, the ENFPs I know are more of the hippy/community organizer variety. It's a different culture, different values, different skill set developed. Also no doubt attracts different ENFPs (mostly)

Phew! So how's that for an answer? :p

Hmm, I am trying to think about the ENFJs I knew in science..Interestingly the one would do some really odd stuff at times....maybe he is an example of some sort of enfj variant, i dunno. I think you are on to something wrt the different values/different skills notion.
 

CzeCze

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I have put some thought in this and I halfway agree with you-I do agree it is molded over a lifetime. But i think the result can be an so/sx or an sp/sx mold. The so/sx fends off issues with an Ne twist and an odd mimic of Fe-ish skills, where an sp/sx fends of stress by seeking to control things or hyperanalyze things with Te. Thus the so/sx ends up with better social skills, perhaps being flippant at times, and the sp/sx ends up being extremely analytical, and perhaps overly blunt and obnoxious at times.

:yesss:

So/Sx that's me :D

LOL. I getya on the 'mimicing Fe' part. So/sx primary is Not Fe but a decent approximation in the workplace.

An sx/sp enfp who exhibits a Te stress episode acts very bad. I recently watched this and it is like the guy had no conscious control over his Te and he became extremely tyrannical and HORRIBLE to other people on his team- "Just keep your mouth shut and do your job, who are you to think you can tell me how to better do my job?" while rattling off his credentials. Normally he is extremely sweet and an amazingly caring enfp, so it was a huge character shift. He aslo has almost no ability to detach his emo investment from his work product-He cant accept any critique at all without getting very defensive...

Sounds like some ENTPs I know. HA.. HA.. HA..

Partly kidding. But yeah, I guess some types are more prone to taking criticism very personally. Generally I've found INTJs don't do this MOST of the time so they are easy to work with in that aspect.

I know some enfps like this at work and they seem pretty happy. Sometimes they do strike me as the boss in "better off dead" though. Like it is an oozy, freindly sorta bossiness and not sincre in thier affection for you, which seems reasonable at work I guess. I suspect they think people like them more than they really do, however , and I think they may also over estimate the power of thier influence to some extent.

Haha, you know, as an Fi heavy type I can be really suspicious of Fe. Not all the time. I actually like Fe. But sometimes, I just can't tell how sincere someone is being and I am a bad judge of how others are interpreting it. I take it back, it's not that I don't trust Fe, it's just that I definitely look at friendliness and other things with more judicious eyes. I especially am sensitive to the good natured "I don't give a funk" kind of friendliness (more evident in fellow Ne doms ENTPs) where the person seems jovial and jokey but I'm pretty sure they don't have any personal or emotional investment in what they are working nor do they necessarily like you or not, they are just shooting the breeze. This is often why I get frustrated at people who I feel fall for the "used car salesmen" shtick, I want to shake them and go, "You fool! This person doesn't respect you one bit! They're playing you!"

I think I am just paranoid, and I sometimes think someone is trying to overtly manipulate me but I'm not sure what the appropriate response is in that instance. Othertimes, things are just peachy and I think someone is just being friendly or whatnot.

Oddly some the ENFPs I am describing are extremely successful. I didnt see these folks at all in biotech, but have seen several in IT, not sure why the diff.

Yes, IT!

You mean after an email convo, you decided they were rude? Yikes. I have people do this to me sometimes-becuase in my brain when I type, I type thoughts, the words tend to lack emotion. If I am particularly focused, they can be very directive. Only long after the fact have people told me they were too blunt and I was totally taken aback as that wasnt the intent-I just was thinking about what I wrote. I have went back in a fairly formulaic way and learned to ask rather than tell and add fluffy openers and such so people dont take things the worng way, but it is something I have to plan-it isnt natural.

Ha, no it wasn't that they were devoid of smiley faces and soft openers. Blunt emails are de rigeur in a business setting. I don't take them personally and can write pretty plainly myself. But, this was for volunteer or other non-work related stuff. It's like in their daily personas they tried to be soft and friendly and whatnot but then all of a sudden when I needed help or made a mistake in one case it was like BAM, absolutely none of the friendliness, helpfulness, goofiness, etc. that I felt they went out of their ways to be known for. I was really desperate for some advice in one instance and it was related to shared volunteer work I did with this one ENFP and their response basically said to me they couldn't give a fuck, that's also why I was put off. I found out later that they had slept with a friend of mine but then my friend never called them back. So they may have been predisposed to not be very friendly towards me.

I think in retrospect, with Fi, because ENFPs regardless of tritype are so fluffy and have vulnerable feelings that when feeling attacked (either overtly or someone is trying to 'get' something from you) that you can enter vigilant mode and just go the other extreme and see rude or even hostile.

As you describe this I am recalling an interaction I had recently with an so/sx ENFP guy I worked with. We had a meeting and he was being all chilled out and suave-friendly and he seemed confused why I wasnt being goofy with him. In my own mind I was going "hmmm, dont you know it is thinking time? fun time can come in a few minutes, but right now is thinking time. Whya rent you thinking with me.?" Not in a mad way or angry or judgemental-more perpelxed as I like him quite a bit. He seemed puzzled and then I tried to smile and be friendly as he is a nice guy, and I didnt mean to be mean, but when I think I am very serious and focused on the topic at hand.

Ha, I remember you described the ENFP "serious face" and that it looked like we were slightly pissed off as opposed to an ENTP "serious face" which was more blank?

From your perspective, you would regard the inability to keep on a happy face to be rude?

Ooh, that sounds like a loaded question but I would say there is a time and place for everything. Sometimes it can just feel inexplicably abrupt or confusing when someone seems to flip-flop regardless of context. My ENFP boss was like this. Sometimes she seriously seemed loopy and would joke around with coworkers and other times she was directive and lecturing. Aside from time and place it made me feel like I didn't really get her and made me keep her at arm's length. Personally, at work at least I'm more for 1 or the other. I'm typically all business and I don't talk about my personal life and I'm friendly but only as much as I keep a cordial distance to everyone. It's either work or pleasure for me, not both.

It feels so forced and when I am trying to think, it feels exhausting to pretend to be happy. Oddly I am having a lot of fun typically, and quite satisfied, but in the manner of a puppy playing with a chew toy with another puppy-its really fun to find the answer to a tough problem, but to do so I have to put on my serious face and focus.

I think for a work environment this is perfectly normal.

You know I recently got shit from another so/sx enfp about being "bitter" when I was in this mode-oddly it is when I am at my most neutral and detached and trying to understand how the problem, not bitter!

Ha! I wish I could offer some so/sx insight but I rarely think people are being bitter about anything.
 
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