[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Co-operation of iNFJ and eNTP?

[alcea rosea]

What do you say about co-operation of iNFJ and eNTP? Could it work? What could be the possible problems? What would be the benefits? Any ideas?

 

[the state i am in]

for those in adult stages, the personal developmental arc promotes learning rather than strictly symbiosis. the best part is the capacity to teach each other. as this unfolds, communication becomes more and more effortless and as close to complete as seemingly possible. like in most social situations, the willingness of both participants to be taught rather than do all the teaching is the biggest obstacle.

 

[sulfit]

What do you say about co-operation of iNFJ and eNTP? Could it work? What could be the possible problems? What would be the benefits? Any ideas?

Should be smooth sailing. INFJs and ENTPs speak the same language of Ti and Fe, but ENTPs like to expand options (Ne) where INFJs like to unify and limit them, which is where they don't intersect. In socionics their relationship is that of mirage: Mirage Relations (INFJ is INFp/IEI in socionics, ENTP stays same, ENTp/ILE)

 

[RaptorWizard]

^ Typical technical INTP above me who has to go into each little functional detail like oh ENTPs are so expansive and INFJs are so holistic because of x function equalling y to extrapolate back to z wtf I don/t even understand what I'm talking about!

Me no talk INTP speak!

 

[Ene]

I hope it works. My new boss is an ENTP. So far, so good.

 

[SilkRoad]

If we're talking about romantic relationships, or possibly even friendships, the widest consensus from my own experience and from reading those of others on this site is that INFJ-ENTP is one of the most overrated relationships out there, if not THE most overrated.

It's supposed to be magically passionate and fabulously intellectual. However, it appears that IRL, INFJs tend to find ENTPs too aggressive and fickle, and ENTPs find INFJs too uptight, serious and...er...fickle.

I would suspect it works better in friendship or business relationships than in romance.

 

[1487610420]

No.

 

[Society]

What do you say about co-operation of iNFJ and eNTP? Could it work? What could be the possible problems? What would be the benefits? Any ideas?

tl;dr: refer to phobik's post above.

It sounds like you mean in a team situation, such as in a work or study environment. in which case, yes, co-operation between INFJs and ENTPs can be theoretically wonderful, Ne and Ni are extremely productive in brainstorming, Fe flattered by Ti is wonderful in understanding how can something be perceived and understood and is a great tool for extracting the social dynamics of a group, Ti flattered by Fe is a pretty good problem solving tool to see what can be done with the ideas from the Ni/Ne brainstorm and the information at hand, and to break down any problem to manageable bits.

I say theoretically, because there are likely problems along the way that can cause a lot of tension.


first of all: space. E vs. I
extroverts in general do not intuitively understand the idea of "needing space", i mean sure i am a large guy and probably consume a large a sizable agricultural area within this planet, but other people are allowed to be there (to work the farms). i do need space for myself on occasions, but i don't need space away from people in order to contemplate things. it took me a very long time to figure out why introverts start - what appeared to me - to be acting insane, as if after some point in a conversation your mere presence is pushing them with their back against the wall (and not in the sexy way).



a larger question is the question of questioning:
when the ENTP's Ti>Fe pushes the INFJ into Ni-Ti analysis-paralysis.

xxTPs swims in doubt, because doubt is very much an element of who we are, the way Ti (for both NTPs and STPs), is almost like a question generator in the back of your head, and so we live in a constant state of doubt about almost everything. the cooping mechanism for that is an over confidence in one's competence. we are incredibly used to making the wrong gambles, and so become over confident in our ability to deal with whatever consequences come. to quote a battler who never quite bothered to exist, "Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up".
xNxJs do not function very well in states of doubt. Not intellectually mind you, many of them like the idea of doubt, but to quote Douglas Adams, “We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!”. in action, 'analysis paralysis' seems to be a genuine problem for them. the cooping mechanism for that is an overconfidence in one's understanding.

while this might seem like a good thing, and often it is when facing external challenges, it also creates problems in long term dynamics, because while initially their cooperation might be facing an external subject, more and more, their dynamic will include facing each other, and the xNFJ can find themselves flooded in the doubt generated by the xxTP, pushing them into Ni-Ti loops, a state in which they find themselves unable to properly function or make decisions.


this leads to another problem: objectivity.
when the INFJ's Fe>Ti pushes the ENTP into a Ti-Si grinding-water.
as said before, INFJs Ni-Fe can be wonderful at figuring out the perception of things, what something mean to people, what things look like. but many of the less mature ones, that is all that there is, that is what compels them, the part that matters to them, how something appears to be is what something is. this leads them into quite the life long struggle with the desire for something genuine, and the ability to define and identify what something genuine would look like. you know the saying "clothes make the person"? replace "clothes" with "an intricate understanding of the sociological meanings, context and innuendo" and you pretty much got it. the desired need for resolution can make one quite comfortable in taking the appearance as it is, with no further inquiry.
ENTPs on the other hand, have an innate desire for the objective. while many of us might be subjective in our philosophy, Ti cringes at rational inconsistencies, desires to fix them, point them out, or alternatively make light of them so that the space-humor continuum can rest in peace. basically, in the end everything has to come down to a leveled playing field we're all playing in, and we might as well call it "objective reality", because calling it The-iScream didn't sit well.

again, on the surface it looks like a perfect match, one to take care of this area and another to take care of that area, and sometimes it is, again, as long as what they face is external, but soon enough the realities they will face won't be merely the external challenges, but each other, and sooner or later, the xNFJ is going to make a decision, a conclusion about something whose rational basis smells very unsatisfying. for the xNFJ, that means no more inquiry, its a done deal, topic closed. for the NTP, no further inquiry means having to relay on past inquiries, it means going to our baby Si and asking it for help. except no matter how many questions you ask your memories, if no new information comes, your not going to get new answers. each question just leads to more inconsistencies, more hypocritical patterns found, more possible answers which lead to more questions... and there's no discovery to save you or guide you, because the information you have just sits there and degrades on it's neurological ass, and your mind just starts grinding water. the part of you that cares about the matter can't let go, because it can't reach anything to go to.


hypothetically, any two mature indeviduals can overcome such problems, and many others. practically, your talking about the tricksters who get their grove by 1up-manship (and asserting that we are better), and mystics aspiring to world peace by believing they are always right (so everyone else is wrong)... maturity becomes a scarce resource.

have you considered hiring SJs instead?

 

[Society]

What do you say about co-operation of iNFJ and eNTP? Could it work? What could be the possible problems? What would be the benefits? Any ideas?

now i am wondering if you fired or didn't hire someone based on the feedback you got here from others and myself because you figured they didn't work with the person you already where working with...

*looks around at the massive Fe failures*

the truth is that the response is negative for a somewhat conflicted reason. it's sort of like.. well, you know the sayings "all men are assholes" and "all women are crazy"? well, that comes because with most people being hetrosexual, members of the other sex are those they form the deepest relationships with and those that hurt them the most. its people hating other people for the very same traits that drew them and made them work while their dynamic was ongoing.

if i am honest with myself, i think that for MBTI aware people, quite a bit of the same dynamic goes on between NFJs and NTPs, so just like type awareness leads to type-fetishers (NTPs and NFJs who are constantly looking for members of other type), it also leads people into the other extreme. there are good reasons that the MBTI suggests NFJs and NTPs have a good dynamic, its just the only time you'll find anyone admitting towards those is when they are within such relationship of sorts, where most of the feedback your going to get here are from people who had relationships of those kind, relationships that had reasons they ended, and so characterize the other type with those reasons.

so yes, despite all the shit i said above and everyone else's, there are quite a bit of good reasons for NFJs and NTPs to work together, and since you used the word cooperation, i am guessing you aren't going for a matchmaking service.

 

[Istbkleta]

tl;dr: refer to phobik's post above.
...
have you considered hiring SJs instead?[/QU it a couple of time.

I don't understand your post. It seems too much of a stream of consciousness. Could you refine it?

 

[Society]

I don't understand your post. It seems too much of a stream of consciousness. Could you refine it?

i was trying to pin point some of the specific difficulties that might arise in INFJ ENTP interaction within a work environment.
basically you have a lot of traits that are great when working together to deal with something other then themselves, like a task at hand, an external challenge, a mutual project, etc'. but the very same traits create problem when dealing with each other and leads to a lot of difficulties in fostering a good dynamic.

in the second post i added the disclaimer, that me and many others here - INFJs and ENTPs - are likely to be very biased against that idea for the wrong (or rather irrational) reasons:

basically the MBTI has created a set of hypothetical "couples" that supposedly work well together:
NTPs and NFJs
NFPs and NTJs
STPs and SFJs
SFPs and STJs

the basis for it is not without merit. it includes judgement functions in opposite order (Ti>Fe & Fe>Ti, Fi>Te & Te>Fi), and apposing perceiving functions (Ne & Ni, Se & Si). the first part means you have a similar way of thinking but with different strengths. the second part means that you are able to gauge different information from the subject matter at hand. those really are very positive interactions.

but it also creates the reverse affect: just like you have people who go with the MBTI's suggestion and idealize the idea of a relationship with the other type, you also have people who rebel against the idea of it. in both cases the reason can include personal experience, but in the later its a negative one. in other words you have people who had relationships with their "ideal match" that ended, caused pain, and they associate it with that type as a whole (i'm somewhat of an extreme example guilty of doing that myself).