[INFJ] Te + INFJ = !

[Tiltyred]

Yeah, no, I'm entirely with you on this.

 

[21%]

But what about demanding that person still be your friend? Like "omgz u bad person for not sticking by my side although I decided to end the more romantic aspects of our relationship." That's not about their own guilt. That's like trying to transfer their own guilt on to the other person.

Stuff like that. Or "you should be happy for me" if they start dating someone else. To me that's entirely narcissistic.

In fact, typically if someone is THAT taken with me, and I cannot return their feelings, I actually want away from them, because I don't want that energy continuing to be directed at me. It makes me uncomfortable to spend a great deal of time with someone who I know is sitting there WANTING ME if I have zero feelings in return. It can even feel icky, like I can feel their vibes wanting more from me.

It's better for everyone involved in a situation like that for people to take space from each other. And if you cannot do that, I seriously wonder if you're being honest when you say you have no feelings for that person you continue to maintain a closeness to...or if you're "using" them for your own ego, vanity, or what that friend does for you because they're in love with you (for example, doing you favors, or always being available at 3 AM if you need them).

I totally agree with this! It's for his own good, really. If you continue to be friends, he will just hang around hoping that you will change your mind, and that's excruciating. I think it's better to say something along the line of "I greatly value our friendship and I would like to be friends, but I don't think it's a good idea to be around each other now, because only bitter feelings can come of it. This does not mean in any way that I don't care about you or that I think any less of you, but it's because I really, really value our friendship and want that to continue in the future once we have moved on."

He might not take it well, though. I'm sorry for him. I know how it feels and it totally sucks. Don't say things just to be nice, though (like "I don't think we have a chance right now, but perhaps in the future..."), because then he might decide to wait. Stress on how great a person you think he is, but leave absolutely no opening for 'future possibilities'. He needs to know that it's not his fault and there's nothing he can do about it. Sometimes people just don't work out.

At least that's how I'd like it if it's happening to me.

 

[Laurie]

Ah the magical ability of ENFPs to attract unwanted attention and potential lovers.

What is the secret I often wonder.

I think we offer a form of intimacy to everyone and it's too tempting for some.

 

[violaine]

Eh, I'm friends with an ex (or two). I know loads of peeps who are friends w their exes. Just cos it didn't work out romantically, doesn't mean my ex and I were entirely incompatible. TBH, I rather enjoyed the challenge of getting over my feelings. I also didn't think I should just throw someone on the scrap heap because it didn't turn out the way I wanted in that moment. But I think I'm good at not wanting someone who doesn't want what I want. I take notice of that as a fact that is set in stone and that I don't wish to change. I want the truth of the feeling and then I'll act accordingly. So I don't think it's out of the realms of the possible to keep a friendship. Has to be emotionally cut and dried though. So maybe later might be better for him. Sounds like it's been complicated enough... Esp if any kind of manipulation has entered the picture.

It can also have strange ramifications - I was totally over my ex and he ended up wanting me back. Hah. That was weird. Gotta watch that. Now we are good, if infrequent, friends and we don't even talk about when we were dating. Def not been the case w all exes. I'm glad to sever the ties completely sometimes. And I don't mourn the loss of a possible friendship in those cases.

 

[Starry]

I realize that I'm a little mentally out-of-it today...but I've become a little confused about this thread. In fact, I kinda feel like I may have ended-up contradicting myself because of it...and while I don't necessarily think I'll be able to correct that (possible) error (if there even was one I don't even know) tonight...I'm just wondering where this 'expecting/forcing/guilt-tripping' or whatever...someone into staying with you after you refused them romantically came from. I'm hoping someone can set me straight. I totally didn't...and still don't get the sense that furrina is keeping this dude around as a 'play-toy'. I believe she truly cares for this person and is dealing with a challenging situation (and attempting to prepare herself for what may come - while hoping for the best). Or is all of this coming out of AGA's comment to senza? What is going on here?

 

[Crescent Fresh]

Sometimes, I think a person needs a hard blow to wake up from the land of one-way infatuation.

To be honest, I think it'll be hard for your INFJ to take on your Te, but I think it's for the best and you'll just have to expect for the worst that he might cut you off entirely.

I've always felt INFJ + ENFP's friendship can be quite genuine, as long as it's not involved romantically. Opposite do attract in the world of la la land, but not in reality.

 

[21%]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

I don't think anyone's trying to say the OP is trying to keep this guy around for her own amusement. But speaking from experience, I think it's way better to 'take some time apart' after you reject someone romantically than to keep on 'being friends and acting as nothing has happened'. In the long run, I think it makes it harder for the other person to move on if you're still hanging out with them, etc. (And of course when you start dating other people it will be like hell for your 'friend' who still has feelings for you)

I think the point is, you might want to remain friends, but for the other person's own good, it might be better not to (at least for a while). I tried to 'remain friends' with someone I liked and that didn't do anything for me, and I wasted a lot of time 'waiting'. I was young and naive then. It would have been nicer, in retrospect, if the guy had just said "No, nothing can ever happen between us and I really like you as a person. But this is it. Move on. I will be very happy if you come back and be my friend in the future when you're ready".

 

[AgentF]

wow. what a controversial topic.

agreed with [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]: a man who can pull on his big boy pants is hot. a man who asks for things without disclosing "by the way, our friendship is soon to disappear if you don't reciprocate" is not. that's smells like a threat and a fairly sneaky one at that (why ask for something you claim to passionately want, without disclosing the conditions and quid pro quos at that time?) i can't imagine being with someone (pardon me) so weak he would permanently run away simply because his friend didn't love him back in precisely the way he wants her to. i, after all, never stopped caring for you as a friend. take your time, lick your wounds, and come back when you're ready. i won't expect a damn thing of you during your convalescence. but dumping your supposed very good friend permanently because she didn't see a future with you? after repeatedly explaining that she had doubts about compatibility and impact on the friendship? nothing blithe here, i was crystal clear about where i stood.

and who has time for games, manipulation and boy toys? that's rather laughable. i respect people too much to do that.

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] yeah, his heart is going to be broken but i do wonder how much of that was an imagined reality. i certainly had a role to play by saying i would "consider it" but who the hell knew the consequences of agreeing to that.

i would also hope [MENTION=6336]AphroditeGoneAwry[/MENTION] is correct in saying that her fellow INFJs can take care of themselves. i have several good INFJ friends and doubt they have hidden conditions they're ready to spring on me.

and [MENTION=4806]violaine[/MENTION] is probably right in suggesting he might be in made-for-each-other/rescuer mode. i'm pretty objective about inbound romantic interest, and the more i explained to him that we had a lot to lose and i had serious doubts about a future, the more he would stubbornly, quietly determine to prove me wrong.

i've taken a more consultative, open approach to the whole thing because i thought he could handle it (i know i take that approach to life and relationships). he certainly claimed he could handle it. but i think he was exaggerating his ability to remain objective so that he could buy time and win me over. when i recently tried creating some space to focus on some really important work projects, he became pretty demanding. and when i called him out on it the next time i saw him, he broke down sobbing and claimed to have not eaten for a coupla days he was so freaked out about my 10-day absence.

sorry, folks, i need an adult whose feet are standing on solid ground. if you're goin on a hunger strike it had better be to protest the British rule of India. and for the love of science don't manipulate or try to trick me while you're at it! if you lack the communication skills and are afraid to ask for what you want in a relationship (because you aren't sure you'll get what you really want or are somehow intimidated) SAY SO! express your fears, don't just withdraw and hurt yourself and later tell me about it expecting pity.

in other words: don't shit on my chest and tell me it's vegemite.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

....vegemite. awesome.





Ah, well, another one [of your 'loves'] bites the dust.

ce la vi
there are more fish in the sea.

eh?

 

[SilkRoad]

Haven't read through the thread yet, sorry. But just to add my two cents: as an INFJ, if I've been involved with or even just had strong feelings for someone, and they reject me, the friendship is over, and probably forever (or at least, I dunno, for...ten years or more). Nothing else has ever worked for me.

Well, I have once re-established acquaintanceship with someone a few years down the line, but just as a very distant acquaintance. And they didn't really "reject" me outright, so probably not quite the same thing anyway...


EDIT: I should add something. I know I'm mildly delusional...but only mildly delusional. Ie. I am pretty sure I have assumed that a person felt more for me than they actually did.

HOWEVER. I am not the type of person, in the least, who assumes that every guy/friend/guy friend is in love with her. If I don't get the sense that someone has feelings for me, any feelings I have for them tend to die away... So, essentially, when I've sensed that someone really liked me (and especially when we've actually dated!) and then they are like "uh no, I think you're a great friend but you misread my feelings" or "oh well I'm going to date this girl, but I know you and I will be the best of friends" - there is pretty much always an element of me feeling that they have led me on. And I do not think I am wrong/delusional about that. You know, don't tell me how much you love me, or make suggestive remarks or keep bringing up sex in conversation with me, or tell me how wonderful I am, and assume it means nothing and it's harmless flirtation (or a relationship that doesn't mean a whole lot) and I'm just harmlessly flirting back or viewing it as a fun, non-serious relationship. (I do not flirt unless I am seriously interested in someone - pretty much full stop - and I do not date people unless I might ultimately be interested in marrying them.)

I do not like or respect people who treat me like that. People who I do not like or respect are not going to stay in my life.

 

[SilkRoad]

Yeah I love how someone will call someone else selfish for not doing what they wanted. "Hey yeah I want to completely devalue your feelings, but you should respect mine. It's much more convenient for me to rely on you for your constant, loyal companionship so that I'm not alone/bored/whatever rather than just make a new friend, so why not just hang out and behave yourself and be happy for me that I want to fuck other people."

YES. + 1 million.

 

[ilovelurking]

YES. + 1 million.

Add another!

 

[21%]

If I don't get the sense that someone has feelings for me, any feelings I have for them tend to die away...

This is so true for me as well! I think if they don't show any sign of being attracted to me, I can safely keep them at the "crush" level, and can really be happy for them if they find someone. The lack of clarity of where things are going is much harder to handle. If a guy shows interest in me, flirts, asks me to hang out, and I end up having feelings for him, especially if we have both 'acknowledged' this on some level, but if he then suddenly wants to 'be friends', it will drive me absolutely crazy. In this case, directly telling me it's not going to work and why will be helpful in the long run (if the friendship is going to survive).

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

I don't think anyone's trying to say the OP is trying to keep this guy around for her own amusement. But speaking from experience, I think it's way better to 'take some time apart' after you reject someone romantically than to keep on 'being friends and acting as nothing has happened'. In the long run, I think it makes it harder for the other person to move on if you're still hanging out with them, etc. (And of course when you start dating other people it will be like hell for your 'friend' who still has feelings for you)

Thank you so much 21% for taking the time to answer my question in this thread. I really appreciate it. But yah...I guess I'm still a little confused and that's okay (this is certainly not an uncommon experience for me haha!!!). I mean...I do hear what your saying. And I believe the 'model' you outline above is the path that most people take in these type of circumstances (although I disagree that the only way to handle this is 'acting like nothing happened'. I've known couples who worked through these type of things by keeping the communication open and discussing feelings as they arise). I guess what was confusing me was the suggestion that it was the only valid way to handle these scenarios...or the 'better' choice...and that I just don't buy.

If there is someone in my life...that I cherish...and their greatest fault is that they don't like me romantically when I wanted a little bit more ??? Oh you'd be damn-straight that I'm going to (actively) work through my 'hurt' and continue the friendship with them. And I'm not all that fond of the 'hidden' suggestion that I can do this because my feelings are somehow not as profound or meaningful or deep. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I do is focus on the person...it is the person where I keep my focus...and in this way the storyline can change.

 

[Cimarron]

The INFJ just needs time to get over the feelings, which sometimes can take a while. In the meantime... for those X number of months, it's difficult to be around the person and try to be 'just friends', while knowing or seeing that person date other people or become involved romantically with others. It's probably why it's easier to cut them out completely for that interim, until feelings are worked through / no longer cause a stumbling block to true friendship. For me this has really only applies if I was actually in a relationship and it ended, but I suppose the same could apply for INFJ's who fall for someone and the relationship never happens? It seems odd on one level, but plausible.

I totally agree with this...also with your note that it's much stronger of an effect after relationships than after rejections.

Regarding the Te, I like to think that in the right language and tone, with additional background info if necessary, Te can be used without much more harm than other functions. But I don't know whether I can speak for the results...

Edit: Wait, wow, this thread got complicated.

 

[skylights]

I honestly wonder about people who continue platonically clinging to a person who they say they aren't interested in, although they know the other person is in love with them.

Why are you clinging to that person if you really don't feel anything? How come you can't move on with your own life if you have no feelings?

This is the point where I start to question if sometimes people confuse the "infatuation" stage of love (omg you're so hot, I can't keep my hands off you) with real, enduring love. Yeah, real enduring love isn't always as physically exciting. Grow up.

Clearly you've formed some kind of attachment to someone if you demand continuing companionship from someone you no longer feel those hormonal infatuation feelings for.

THIS IS WHY THE DIVORCE RATE IS SO HIGH.

/leaves thread

Actually, I've kind of been in this situation. Where you care for someone very deeply, sex with them is really appealing, and you still really like hanging out with them. But there's a loss of "sparkle".

Is this grown-up love and I am still too much of a child to have recognized this? D:

 

[AgentF]

update:

had the conversation with the INFJ. it went really well!!!

he said he understood, but wanted some specifics, which was fine as i'd had a chance to think things through more clearly. and when i told him i'd understand if he needed time away, even an indefinite period, he said he wouldn't because he'd miss me too much, and also realized this might be the outcome for some time based on our previous talks.

so thank you to all the awesome INFJs and Te-users who posted here, as the advice to be clear but gentle really helped. even the bizarro contributions of a few embittered types lent perspective on how cruelly some have been rejected, so that i'd never be tempted to do that to my friend.

he said he was deeply disappointed but would be honored to resume our friendship...and said he felt closer to me from the conversation (even if the outcome wasn't his ideal).

anyway, just so relieved, grateful, happy!

 

[21%]

Thank you so much 21% for taking the time to answer my question in this thread. I really appreciate it. But yah...I guess I'm still a little confused and that's okay (this is certainly not an uncommon experience for me haha!!!). I mean...I do hear what your saying. And I believe the 'model' you outline above is the path that most people take in these type of circumstances (although I disagree that the only way to handle this is 'acting like nothing happened'. I've known couples who worked through these type of things by keeping the communication open and discussing feelings as they arise). I guess what was confusing me was the suggestion that it was the only valid way to handle these scenarios...or the 'better' choice...and that I just don't buy.

If there is someone in my life...that I cherish...and their greatest fault is that they don't like me romantically when I wanted a little bit more ??? Oh you'd be damn-straight that I'm going to (actively) work through my 'hurt' and continue the friendship with them. And I'm not all that fond of the 'hidden' suggestion that I can do this because my feelings are somehow not as profound or meaningful or deep. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I do is focus on the person...it is the person where I keep my focus...and in this way the storyline can change.

I was in no way implying the bolded at all! After reading [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] 's post I'm a bit clearer on the subject as well. If there is open communication, then I'm perfectly fine. If the guy clearly states that nothing will happen and that he values our friendship, I can handle that and I can move on. It's only hell when he's confused and doesn't know what to do but decides to keep me around, especially when he acts as if he still has feelings for me. It's a bit strange that a lot of people don't realize the importance of open communication and prefer to 'see how it goes', which often leads to things getting weird and awkward...

Thinking back, I've had both situations happen to me, and the guy who I knew did not have feelings for me I'm still friends with

[MENTION=12102]agentfurrina[/MENTION]
Congrats and good luck!

 

[Fidelia]

I know that your problem is now resolved, but I thought this problem was interesting as it highlights our very different approaches and ways of interpreting the same behaviours.

INFJs:
1 - if you were to fall in love with a friend, what is the best way for that friend to tell you she doesn't see a romantic future between the two of you? (short explanation? in person or written?) Matter-of-factly with no room for misinterpretation, but don't embarrass the other person if you can avoid it.
2 - have you ever tried pressuring someone into a relationship, by making yourself hyper-available/-accommodating or turning on the big saucer eyes? oblique/indirect displays of romantic feelings that may be difficult to pick up on? No, and I actually don't think this is a manipulative move. INFJs generally tend to be pretty accommodating, and when they like someone, they are indirect and just make themselves very ubiquitously available, almost in spite of themselves. I think this honestly is not an attempt to pressure you.
3 - if you are rejected by a friend, does that usually mean the end of the friendship?
No, but I think it takes time to get over feelings and it happens much sooner if stuff can be revisited as needed and questions answered. (Serves to douse the fire nicely and stamp out the remaining sparks when there's resolution. Ni sucks sometimes as it creates so many possibilities and questions and I have a hard time letting go of something until I have the variables accounted for and the possible outcomes of each determined. I know that I at least can often obsess about the whys or ifs, even more that I do about the whats.). Otherwise, it requires no contact for awhile so those unresolved questions can dwindle in importance or so that new possibilities are not introduced. Contact is like adding logs to the fire that you are trying to squelch.

I think there is definitely a divide between how Ps envision relationships (pretty fluid) vs how I do. I like people in my life to be categorized. I'll move them around as needed, but pretty soon after meeting anyone, I have an idea of what kind of potential there is for the friendship or relationship or what the nature of it might be. I like knowing what to expect and can adjust fairly well to any mode of relating, but I like it to be consistent and clear. I personally tend to be reluctant to cut anyone out of my life, unless they introduce something unredeemably negative. I don't like some types of change and tend to like keeping familiar people around, even those of little importance to me. For example, I would miss the people on my every day route (coffee shop regulars, people on the street, acquaintances at work, television characters) if they suddenly weren't there, even if they didn't occupy a significant role in my life. For those that are important to me or were at one time, I am generally sorry to see them exit my life entirely, even if their significance changes.

.

 

[SilkRoad]

If there is someone in my life...that I cherish...and their greatest fault is that they don't like me romantically when I wanted a little bit more ??? Oh you'd be damn-straight that I'm going to (actively) work through my 'hurt' and continue the friendship with them. And I'm not all that fond of the 'hidden' suggestion that I can do this because my feelings are somehow not as profound or meaningful or deep. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I do is focus on the person...it is the person where I keep my focus...and in this way the storyline can change.

I see what you mean with this and I think it's something I personally (and perhaps a lot of INFJs) are bad at doing. However, I've found that in some cases the way the storyline has unfolded has shown me a lot about what that person is really like. To the extent that I no longer wish to continue a friendship, even if I could get through the long painful process of working through my feelings. I don't think there's anything wrong with deciding you no longer want to be friends with someone who is a selfish user, or who leads others on for their own amusement. I am not saying that this is ALWAYS how such situations play out, of course. But where they do the idea of "working through" things and continuing a friendship may seem utterly pointless and bizarre.

The fact is - with the small number of people who have disappeared from my life in this manner, while I've had long mourning periods and there may be some permanent sore spots and scars, it ultimately hasn't proved to be a great loss. I'm sure that sounds very cold but...it's true. I end up seeing how we were bad for each other in various ways and how keeping them in my life would have resulted in further damage. They may even have gone on to behave similarly with other people, or make really unfortunate/destructive decisions, etc, which have tended to confirm that my decision was more or less correct and that they're not the type of people I need or want in my life. Again - I am NOT saying that this is how things are in all or even most such situations, or that everyone will want to have the same approach. These have been my feelings and my approach in a few situations. I'm also of the opinion that those who want to keep everyone around in their life - even if some of those people treated them badly - end up in bad situations, a lot. I have a friend who I've mentioned before in various contexts who is still at least friendly with virtually every ex (and occasionally falls in love with them again) - although these guys did things like treat her semi-abusively, become habitual drug users, use her for money, try to commit suicide when she broke up with them, cheat on her, etc. I mean, this isn't minor stuff either, some of it is pretty extreme. The fact that she wants them in her life in any context (unless it's absolutely necessary, and it usually isn't) just makes me go . Perhaps she has good reasons for it, but they aren't reasons I understand, I don't think. And she also ends up living out the same patterns repeatedly in her relationships, with guys using her and treating her badly, her putting in all the work, etc.

As I probably mentioned already (and as others have mentioned), things have gone much better for me in friendships if there was attraction on either side but it was slight and just died away; or if the person was open with me about how they see me in their life, and didn't send me mixed messages and give a general impression of wanting to keep their options open - etc.