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[INFJ] Te + INFJ = !

AgentF

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INFJs, pls help...and Te-users, too. i'm trying to avoid breaking an INFJ's heart. he's a friend. we've tried dating before but i just never felt it* and somewhere along that path he fell in love.

INFJs:
1 - if you were to fall in love with a friend, what is the best way for that friend to tell you she doesn't see a romantic future between the two of you? (short explanation? in person or written?)
2 - have you ever tried pressuring someone into a relationship, by making yourself hyper-available/-accommodating or turning on the big saucer eyes? oblique/indirect displays of romantic feelings that may be difficult to pick up on?
3 - if you are rejected by a friend, does that usually mean the end of the friendship?

Te-users:
1 - how do you reign in your Te in relationships? are you able to soften the blow when rejecting someone for a relationship? (my tendency is to lay out specific reasons why it won't work, but the more manipulated or pressured i feel** the more heartless the Te becomes. i dislike this but Te just wants to solve a problem, after all.)
2 - do you find yourself becoming less of a feeler with the more Te you develop? more emotionally objective? as an ENFP, it seems that sometimes Te is the only recourse...and anyway, if we're already at Te you're kinda fucked: my Fi won't help you and chances are good my Ne helped get us in this situation to begin with!


thanks for your help folks. i feel like i'm about to eviscerate a baby goat.



*that is not a euphemism.
**i think there's a problem with Te and the negative reaction to feeling manipulated that goes beyond explaining it away by claiming tertiary temptation. i have developed a certain amount of Te and in certain situations feel disgusted by irrational displays of emotion. which is odd for an NF, but makes its own perverse kind of sense: you've worked your ass off to *get* some damn Te and someone comes and ruins it with subjective emotion. it's like finishing a beautiful painting and a dog comes along and sprays it. <- rather ectopic thinking but you get the picture.
 

Starry

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My advice would be to tell him how you feel in the way you would like to be given the same information if the roles were reversed.
And then prepare for this INFJ to never talk to you again.
 

AgentF

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My advice would be to tell him how you feel in the way you would like to be given the same information if the roles were reversed.

thanks for your advice. i've tried this. many times. the more i do, the more stubborn he gets.

And then prepare for this INFJ to never talk to you again.
i'm figuring. which chaps my hide: if you claim to love someone, and they haven't wronged you (they just don't see a romantic future with you) why can't you go back to being friends?

ETA: maybe that's silly, but from my understanding INFJs just hit the goddamn road. seems so punitive.
 

cascadeco

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i'm figuring. which chaps my hide: if you claim to love someone, and they haven't wronged you (they just don't see a romantic future with you) why can't you go back to being friends?

ETA: maybe that's silly, but from my understanding INFJs just hit the goddamn road. seems so punitive.

The INFJ just needs time to get over the feelings, which sometimes can take a while. In the meantime... for those X number of months, it's difficult to be around the person and try to be 'just friends', while knowing or seeing that person date other people or become involved romantically with others. It's probably why it's easier to cut them out completely for that interim, until feelings are worked through / no longer cause a stumbling block to true friendship. For me this has really only applies if I was actually in a relationship and it ended, but I suppose the same could apply for INFJ's who fall for someone and the relationship never happens? It seems odd on one level, but plausible.

Is this different for non-Fe-er's? Do Fi-ers have the ability to switch instantaneously into friend-mode and watch the other person be involved with others and be perfectly ok with that?
 

Starry

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thanks for your advice. i've tried this. many times. the more i do, the more stubborn he gets.


i'm figuring. which chaps my hide: if you claim to love someone, and they haven't wronged you (they just don't see a romantic future with you) why can't you go back to being friends?

ETA: maybe that's silly, but from my understanding INFJs just hit the goddamn road. seems so punitive.

Ooohhh so you’ve got one of them more persistent/powerful/prevailing INFJs. My sister is this kind of INFJ…but I find it difficult to get meaningful advice online regarding how to deal with her because many people don’t seem to…even believe me…that this kind of INFJ does exist. I’m almost wondering if reaching-out to some ENFJs for some advice on how to communicate with this person would be more effective. The good news, however, is that I find this specific kind of INFJ to be less retiring and less likely to end the relationship when all is said and done. (edit: I should add that there will be some dramatics though...and then the friendship should be able to return to normal. And it's awesome to see you again!!!)
 

AgentF

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The INFJ just needs time to get over the feelings, which sometimes can take a while. In the meantime... for those X number of months, it's difficult to be around the person and try to be 'just friends', while knowing or seeing that person date other people or become involved romantically with others. It's probably why it's easier to cut them out completely for that interim, until feelings are worked through / no longer cause a stumbling block to true friendship.

this makes sense. thank you! i will resist the urge to invite him out to play during his convalescence...which would have been my [possibly insensitive] impulse.

Is this different for non-Fe-er's? Do Fi-ers have the ability to switch instantaneously into friend-mode and watch the other person be involved with others and be perfectly ok with that?

not sure about other Fi users but i can flip flop pretty easily in most cases. i see relationships as evolving and highly elastic. i also invest a lot in my relationships and want them to last a long time, regardless of what form they take along the way. sometimes ENFPs are accused of being casual about relationships, but i don't see it that way. if you're in my life it's for the long haul and i expect us to be changing each other's diapers one day. cc: [MENTION=4806]violaine[/MENTION]

Ooohhh so you’ve got one of them more persistent/powerful/prevailing INFJs. My sister is this kind of INFJ…but I find it difficult to get meaningful advice online regarding how to deal with her because many people don’t seem to…even believe me…that this kind of INFJ does exist. I’m almost wondering if reaching-out to some ENFJs for some advice on how to communicate with this person would be more effective. The good news, however, is that I find this specific kind of INFJ to be less retiring and less likely to end the relationship when all is said and done.

yes. this guy is like a piece of bubble gum i can't get off me shoe. he's a lovely person but JESUS is he proud and stubborn! not sure about women INFJs but i've read that INFJ males sometimes develop that pride+stubborn combo as a way of compensating for the effeminate rap they sometimes get. try giving this guy advice on something (i'm a 7w6 so that is what i do): he just digs his heels in and only listens when i pull out the Te hammer. but by then i've lost a wee bit of respect for him because i've almost had to assume a goddamn pulpit to get him to listen. it's almost like i'm trying to tell him that reality isn't the way he's envisioned it to be and he gets resentful.

anywhosies, NF on NF is just messy.
 

Starry

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not sure about other Fi users but i can flip flop pretty easily in most cases. i see relationships as evolving and highly elastic. i also invest a lot in my relationships and want them to last a long time, regardless of what form they take along the way. sometimes ENFPs are accused of being casual about relationships, but i don't see it that way. if you're in my life it's for the long haul and i expect us to be changing each other's diapers one day.

I was answering [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] 's question and then my computer had to shut down for updates (so irritating haha)...but then lookey here...you answered this the same way I would. I get the sense an INFJ starts out with a vision/ideal of how they want a relationship to proceed...and if it looks like that will not be lived-out...they will close-up-shop (INFJs can certainly come on here and correct me if my understanding is faulty though). For me...while I do have hopes and dreams surrounding my relationships...I'm much more 'go-with-the-flow'. I don't have a desire to control/guide the relationship in one way or the other. As long as the individual is in my life...I'm happy and can make adjustments as necessary. Now I've gotta get my head-screwed on straight and take a look at the other part of your message.
 

cascadeco

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^That's interesting, to both of you.

I guess I was focusing in on the feelings element. In the event that you harbor feelings for someone and they do not, it's just a blink of an eye and you can kind of quickly work through those so they no longer exist, so that you're not jealous/bothered/upset seeing the other person dating someone else? Just curious.

I mean, I feel like I'm able to adjust to what I'll call relationship 'realities', but that's at more of an intellectual level. The feelings don't adjust at the same rate.

[MENTION=12102]agentfurrina[/MENTION] -- while I think I can understand your losing respect by the very fact that you have to wield the Te-hammer (as you put it), on the other hand, if you simply convey a message in a more feeling-ish way so as to try not to hurt his feelings, he might see that as something he can 'work with' and that has maneuvering room. By being blunt and direct, you're actually being more helpful in the long run, imo.

Basically - if trying to let him down easy isn't doing much, then try the blunt method. That'll make things crystal clear for him so that he doesn't have any wiggle room, thinking '...well maybe,', or '.. she wasn't that harsh, so maybe she isn't super solid on what she's saying...'

Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm an unusual one or not, but I actually appreciate directness.
 

Starry

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yes. this guy is like a piece of bubble gum i can't get off me shoe. he's a lovely person but JESUS is he proud and stubborn! not sure about women INFJs but i've read that INFJ males sometimes develop that pride+stubborn combo as a way of compensating for the effeminate rap they sometimes get. try giving this guy advice on something (i'm a 7w6 so that is what i do): he just digs his heels in and only listens when i pull out the Te hammer. but by then i've lost a wee bit of respect for him because i've almost had to assume a goddamn pulpit to get him to listen. it's almost like i'm trying to tell him that reality isn't the way he's envisioned it to be and he gets resentful.

Yah...I mean I'll just say...INFJ males are not for the faint-of-heart. Although the INFJ male I knew irl...while he had some serious issues with anger, pride, bitterness and stubborness...he was also very retiring and if I even looked at him sideways he would basically stop talking to me. But like I said...I do have some experience with this more persistant variety...and honesty I don't really know what to tell you as I've attempted and failed to get good advice here myself. My sister...she just won't listen at all and rejects all incoming information that doesn't line-up with her 'idealistic world'. I'll think on this some more my dear.
 

AgentF

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I guess I was focusing in on the feelings element. In the event that you harbor feelings for someone and they do not, it's just a blink of an eye and you can kind of quickly work through those so they no longer exist, so that you're not jealous/bothered/upset seeing the other person dating someone else? Just curious.

our flexibility is probably due to having explored many possible scenarios with a given person --> having accepted the possible outcomes (just imagine what bisexual Ne-doms go through!). but there's probably some scary truth underneath it all: if we are able to maintain some degree of objectivity in a romantic context...you probably never had us to begin with. we just didn't realize it until it's too late, or never at all. or maybe we did and struggled to communicate it. this is entirely possible. perhaps we were intellectually willing to consider the relationship, but our full machinery wasn't employed.

maybe we were waiting for the unicorn of love to appear and take us f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶h̶i̶n̶d̶ away...

while I think I can understand your losing respect by the very fact that you have to wield the Te-hammer (as you put it), on the other hand, if you simply convey a message in a more feeling-ish way so as to try not to hurt his feelings, he might see that as something he can 'work with' and that has maneuvering room. By being blunt and direct, you're actually being more helpful in the long run, imo.

word.

i think my compassion has been mistaken for hesitation...and he's met that with persistence and determination that he will somehow prevail. it's a rare kind of romanticism that borders on quixotic. he doesn't understand that my Fi is filtering everything and you simply can't tell Fi it doesn't feel what it feels. in this case, a lack of compatibility.

problem is, he responds to my being blunt with weird little comments about disappearing. and even sent me an email saying "our friendship is in jeopardy more than ever" because i hadn't communicated with him in over a week! wtf. there are odd little manipulations here and there that on one level crack me up (who does he think he's manipulating? i'm a ENFP for fuck's sake. we wrote the goddamn playbook even if we choose not to use it) and on another level piss me off (is this the face of love? because if he can't handle a little bit of rejection how's he going to handle a LTR and the external shit that will inevitably test it?).

i think INFJs commit too soon romantically. i do not understand the means by which they commit, but it seems that they try superimposing a reality on the "relationship" before confirming that it's even there.


or maybe i'm the most unromantic ENFP that ever was.
 

cascadeco

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our flexibility is probably due to having explored many possible scenarios with a given person --> having accepted the possible outcomes (just imagine what bisexual Ne-doms go through!). but there's probably some scary truth underneath it all: if we are able to maintain some degree of objectivity in a romantic context...you probably never had us to begin with. we just didn't realize it until it's too late, or never at all. or maybe we did and struggled to communicate it. this is entirely possible. perhaps we were intellectually willing to consider the relationship, but our full machinery wasn't employed.

Hmm... I'm not sure how to interpret this.

Ok, so IF your full machinery is employed, and you fall for someone - really fall for them/love them/want to be with them/whatever - and if it turns out they don't return that, can you instantly turn that off and go to 'just friends' with them?

I think that would be analagous to the INFJ situation.

But, I'm gathering you don't even allow yourself to go there until/unless you already know the other person is fully there with you, so are you saying the scenario would never happen for you?

i think INFJs commit too soon romantically. i do not understand the means by which they commit, but it seems that they try superimposing a reality on the "relationship" before confirming that it's even there.

Yeah, I think there's truth to this. I think to some degree it applies to al IxxJ's, though. [I mean, you can peruse a certain typ-c users 'Shyness' thread - he's fully committed to a girl he's never even interacted with!!]

It's something I've learned over time - that in many ways there's no 'point' in committing super early, if you don't even know whether there's something THERE. I've learned to let things flow more, rather than impose a reality/vision, as you say, that might not even be a reality.

As for your INFJ, I dunno.. but I wouldn't feel bad if on your end you just need to do what you have to do, especially if he's not able to respect or hear what you're saying.
 
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Riva

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Ah the magical ability of ENFPs to attract unwanted attention and potential lovers.

What is the secret I often wonder.
 

AgentF

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Ok, so IF your full machinery is employed, and you fall for someone - really fall for them/love them/want to be with them/whatever - and if it turns out they don't return that, can you instantly turn that off and go to 'just friends' with them?

I think that would be analagous to the INFJ situation.

good point.

ENFPs feel free to chime in. it seems like it's a process on our end, a little door is opened and after that anything is possible. but that's reserved for romantic relationships; all the outer chambers are available for friends but deep intimacy (perhaps similar to INFJs) is best with one.

and that is perhaps where we differ from INFJs in our romantic ideals. i said "best with one": we can be intimate romantically with people in situations where that little door hasn't opened up, but with the hope that it will. INFJs seem to replace hope with knowledge or certitude.

But, I'm gathering you don't even allow yourself to go there until/unless you already know the other person is fully there with you, so are you saying the scenario would never happen for you?

it depends, infuriatingly. ENFPs have to reign in a shitload of impulses (good and bad) when a heart is dropped on our doorstep and i can't understand how INFJs so easily give it away...i know, it's not done casually but that shit is precious and how are the recipients supposed to handle it when they're dealing with a mysterious personality we haven't figured out yet? it's like being given a new xbox but no user manual!!!


i'll give this more thought. i'm terribly distracted right now and am not thinking straight but will get back to you [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] with hopefully less tangled responses...
 
V

violaine

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INFJs, pls help...and Te-users, too. i'm trying to avoid breaking an INFJ's heart. he's a friend. we've tried dating before but i just never felt it* and somewhere along that path he fell in love.

INFJs:
1 - if you were to fall in love with a friend, what is the best way for that friend to tell you she doesn't see a romantic future between the two of you? (short explanation? in person or written?)
2 - have you ever tried pressuring someone into a relationship, by making yourself hyper-available/-accommodating or turning on the big saucer eyes? oblique/indirect displays of romantic feelings that may be difficult to pick up on?
3 - if you are rejected by a friend, does that usually mean the end of the friendship?

Te-users:
1 - how do you reign in your Te in relationships? are you able to soften the blow when rejecting someone for a relationship? (my tendency is to lay out specific reasons why it won't work, but the more manipulated or pressured i feel** the more heartless the Te becomes. i dislike this but Te just wants to solve a problem, after all.)
2 - do you find yourself becoming less of a feeler with the more Te you develop? more emotionally objective? as an ENFP, it seems that sometimes Te is the only recourse...and anyway, if we're already at Te you're kinda fucked: my Fi won't help you and chances are good my Ne helped get us in this situation to begin with!


thanks for your help folks. i feel like i'm about to eviscerate a baby goat.



*that is not a euphemism.
**i think there's a problem with Te and the negative reaction to feeling manipulated that goes beyond explaining it away by claiming tertiary temptation. i have developed a certain amount of Te and in certain situations feel disgusted by irrational displays of emotion. which is odd for an NF, but makes its own perverse kind of sense: you've worked your ass off to *get* some damn Te and someone comes and ruins it with subjective emotion. it's like finishing a beautiful painting and a dog comes along and sprays it. <- rather ectopic thinking but you get the picture.

I would tell him you don't see a future and you would hope if he cared for you that he would respect and accept that. That should zing him good! Tell him the ball's in his court as far as continuing the friendship. I think the wise thing to do would be to cut off all contact so he can get over it. I think people who are in a feeling-trance require a bit of time to switch modes/break the trance. That's not your problem to deal with. If he gets insistent or weird, tell him you're going to drop contact for a while to give you/him time to regroup so you can relate again as just friends one day. Appeal to his relationship logic side.

He might be in made-for-each-other or rescuer mode and will need a jolt to surrender the fantasy. Really drive the "I hope you can respect my wishes and boundaries" point home. On the plus side, I do think the more he pushes, the less concerned you will be about hurting his feelings.
 

Tiltyred

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My read is that he's pushing because he's receiving mixed signals. If you don't want him, tell him so, and then leave him alone. That's really all there is to it.
I would not even try "Can't we be friends?" If your INFJ is anything like me, it won't be well-received if it is understood, and there's a chance it will be misunderstood as stringing him along. Just leave him be.
I can't even begin to explain to you how foreign your thinking is to me on this. Prolly I don't have to, since you've already got a dose of INFJ-in-relationship thinking. But fuck no, you can't be friends, ok? Go be friends with somebody else.
 

Tiltyred

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... I get the sense an INFJ starts out with a vision/ideal of how they want a relationship to proceed...and if it looks like that will not be lived-out...they will close-up-shop (INFJs can certainly come on here and correct me if my understanding is faulty though).

That's correct.

P.S. I am being very blunt in an effort to be helpful.
 
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violaine

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And agree with Tiltyred... You can't give mixed messages. The INFJ who hasn't had a dose of reality before will just err on the side of hope if you do.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Meh, just do what you need to do for yourself. Trust me, and INFJ can take care of himself. :harhar:
 
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011235813

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You can't have it both ways. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who'd said they didn't see any kind of romantic future with me. And no, it's not because I'm trying to punish them because it really isn't about them at that point, it's about me not wanting to spend time with someone who rejected me.

Make it clear that you don't want to be with him because it's unfair to lead him on. But it's unreasonable to expect him to seek out your friendship after that.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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You can't have it both ways. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who'd said they didn't see any kind of romantic future with me. And no, it's not because I'm trying to punish them because it really isn't about them at that point, it's about me not wanting to spend time with someone who rejected me.

Isn't that an intensely self-serving notion? "Okay, it's not how I want it to be, therefore I don't want it [you] anymore." Ick.

Though I do understand most people behave this way.
 
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