[NF] "Sorry." "It's not your fault!"

[SilkRoad]

i found the canadian "i'm sorry for your loss" to be confusing, and i don't think the time of loss is the best time to expect someone to remember their social graces, often loss is difficult to acknowledge straight after it happens so people don't associate "i'm sorry" with the condition they are in on an immediate basis, and treat "i'm sorry" the way they are used to otherwise.

so i directly translated the hebrew "i share in your sorrow". it was very appreciated and immoderately understood because there was no automatic response to it. but being a foreigner might have given it legitimacy.

alternatively, feel free to try this ready-made condolences poetry from south africa's finest.

Yeah, that is pretty tragic stuff on that link. It makes me want to tell the poets I'm sorry for their lack of talent.

It doesn't pain me when they say "it's not your fault" - just makes me feel a bit silly and wonder if I've made things worse for them, which is the last thing I would want to do, obviously. It's hard to know what is going through someone's mind when they've experienced something harsh.

I like "I share in your sorrow" but it does sound sort of "foreign", so might sound strange if you're from an English-speaking country.

Us Canadians do apologise a lot!

 

[Society]

Us Canadians do apologise a lot!

it was explained to me by the locals to be an internationally misunderstood hidden sarcastic tone that if expanded upon would be "o i'm sorry was my foot in your way?!", along the same lines as "pardon me", which apparently means "o am i bothering you so much that you need to bother me? find the gas station yourself!".

little do most citizens know, the government has taken the same approach, declaring canada's uniqueness to be it's welcoming nature and diversity as a melting pot of all cultures, which really means "the most fucked up immigration proccess by the thickest red tape ever, demanding you'd survive at least 8 months without a work visa if you can afford both that and a really good immigration lawyer, or alternatively a few years of back and forth telling you each time about that one error that for some reason we couldn't notice the previous time, and apparently had to do the fact you wrote it in blue pen instead of a red pen and didn't put your initials next to a correction to a detail that is also written a page bellow it and could have clearly being copied and pasted by the bureaucrat putting it into the computer if he was that welcoming".

 

[Halla74]

Not really an "NF" topic, but I wasn't sure where to put this and figured I'd get good responses here.

...When someone tells me that...they have a serious illness; a good friend just died tragically; their marriage is ending; etc, my tendency is to look at them bug-eyed and say "I'M SO SORRY." (And I mean it, too, especially if I'm close to them.)...

Thoughts?

People are unnecessarily nitpicky sometimes, I swear.

If you got to all the effort to say "Your friend's passing is unfortunate. I hope they had a good life and wish you and their family peace in this difficult time." then there is less opportunity for the person you're conversing with to be unecessarily nitpicky and snarky about your social graces.

Saying "I'm sorry" or "I regret" both imply remorse, and thus somehow imply you feeling "at fault" when of course there is no damn way you were in such a situation.

Or, you could be very blunt and say "You know damn well what I meant. I was being polite; stop being nitpicky."

English is such a fun language.



-Alex

 

[Stanton Moore]

When my sister died a few years ago, this guy I work with came up to me and said 'Man, if you ever want to talk about it, I'm here.' I was really touched by it, and it seemed an appropriate response to me. It was 'I'm sorry' but better...

I woldn't worry about what people think or how they respond to statements of sympathy. They may push against it ('You don't have to be sorry') but they heard it at a more fundamental level, and that's the intent anyway.

 

[CrystalViolet]

I'm socially awkard any way. I'd almost inevitably say something goofy, or seems goofy here. If it's a good friend I honestly don't think social graces matter, not so close acquaintances.....I tend to be very careful with.

 

[Thalassa]

It's cultural. I tend to tell people "I'm so sorry" too. If they say "it's not your fault" or "you didn't do anything" I inwardly either think they've never heard that expression, or they're being obstinate....saying "I'm so sorry to hear that" might make it clearer.

Like [MENTION=5953]Elaur[/MENTION], it can work to say "that sucks" but only AGAIN to people from a particular age group or culture. You can't say that to your grandma or your aunt, they'd look at you like you're the most disrespectful twat on the face of the earth.

 

[skylights]

Well, I can relate to what you've shared SilkRoad.

When I've been on the receiving end, and someone gives me the big-eye emotional look and generic "I'm so sorry!", I realize it's sincere, and I can appreciate the effort, but I can sometimes feel annoyed because I don't want a misinterpretation of my emotional state reflected back to me. And that emotional expression makes me feel as though I now have to manage your emotional state and downplay things so you don't mirror to me this huge sadness.

Wow, I'm surprised to see my own reaction worded so precisely. This is exactly my gut response too. I know that the other person is trying to be kind and sympathizing but I have an emotional reaction that is first almost offended (it can feel like the other person assumes they know the situation well enough to make a value judgment on it deserving sympathy), and subsequently responsible to comfort the other person. Of course, I realize mentally that they are just responding socially, so usually I think little of it, even though it twinges a little emotionally.

But on the other side of the fence, I'm pretty sure I've ended up telling of people "I'm sorry" for lack of more comfortable wording. Like Starry said, I think it's just become sort of a scripted response. Ever since Fidelia explained to me about Fe and the politeness of questions, I have used that as a route, too. I have found that sometimes it feels much easier to just ask gentle questions than provide a judging response, even though questioning is not my native tendency in emotional conversation.

I think that all exchanges like this are rather touchy anyway and they deserve leeway on both sides of the conversation. Of course it's going to be a little uncomfortable and awkward for both the speaker and the listener.

 

[Istbkleta]

Us Canadians do apologise a lot!

I have never met so many rude, annoying, racist and close-minded people in one place. A looot of issues regarding their inferiority complex to Americans (hiding behind their fake superiority).

EDIT: Just remembered all the jokes about the brits preparing for the Olympics and warning everybody in the UK how touchy the Canadians are, so not to mistake them for Americans. Canadians took offence (of course . Funny people.


[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]
Pretty spot on

This is Fi-Te land. Oversensitive Fi backed by brutish, immature Te.


On topic: People have always said: "Thank you". Sometimes: "Thank you. It's OK".

Probably you are overdoing the empathy. If they all respond in a weird way, it's probably you, not them.

 

[NotOfTwo]

I faced this recently, a client told me her assistance dog was dying of cancer. Tragic on a lot of levels. I was sincerely sorry for her impending loss and told her so.

I have grown over the years. I used to back away, mumbling in confusion, when confronted with a grieving person. I have a handle on that now, thank goodness.

 

[Joehobo]

this is how its done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7FyO7-2t6s

Hahahaha, a fine example good sir!

 

[SilkRoad]

I have never met so many rude, annoying, racist and close-minded people in one place. A looot of issues regarding their inferiority complex to Americans (hiding behind their fake superiority).

EDIT: Just remembered all the jokes about the brits preparing for the Olympics and warning everybody in the UK how touchy the Canadians are, so not to mistake them for Americans. Canadians took offence (of course . Funny people.


[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]
Pretty spot on

This is Fi-Te land. Oversensitive Fi backed by brutish, immature Te.


On topic: People have always said: "Thank you". Sometimes: "Thank you. It's OK".

Probably you are overdoing the empathy. If they all respond in a weird way, it's probably you, not them.

Aw bless!

I made the point that it was only some people who responded that way, and that it seemed to have happened to me mainly (only?) since moving to this part of the world, but I guess you didn't notice. *pats head*

Re the Canadian thing: I'm a Canadian living in the UK. I don't mind at all if people say "you're American, right?" What I do mind is if they disbelieve me and imply that I'm lying when I say that I'm Canadian. Otherwise it's all good.

 

[Society]

Pretty spot on

This is Fi-Te land. Oversensitive Fi backed by brutish, immature Te.

huh? we're typing cultures now? if anything, its the Te taking things as overwhelming generalizations that channels the Fi. i can say as an NT that when it comes to the embrace of reasoning on an objective, canada is more welcoming towards that attitude then Israel (which is very F>T), while the dialogue tends to dismiss emotional expression, and NFs/SFs might feel less at home in Canada then NTs/STs. manners and norms are actually dictated more by Si then Fe, as its less acts of inconsideration and more general breaks from the expected behavior that are considered inappropriate, and the diversity of cultures is only accepted when all the other expectations are met, suggesting inferior Ne.
i'd say Canada is Si>Te>Fi>Ni, or ISTJ.


hmm... israel:
a clear warm hearted and hot tempered, both being more culturally acceptable then reason or rational thought, which can get you stoned in way too many circles. Israel is actually worst then canada on issues of sensitivity, yet in the same time has not developed a culture of accommodating sensitivity, rather instead keeping touch with one's own sensitivity while being insensitive towards each other, a distinct Fi>Te.
i would actually say that israel is one of the rare cultures that are more accepting of intuitive's then it is of sensors, while tending towards divergent spirituality and having the big unknown everywhere from its slang and most common sayings forming the mentality to an economical tendency to take stupid high risks even throughout the middle class, while having an inferior Si which is constantly feeling suppressed by mainstream culture.. and its certainly extroverted, certainly not accepting to regiment and structure (probably a counter-reaction to the overwhelming draft)...
i would say Israel is an ENFP.

this is sot of interesting... but i guess it can correlate to the main topic - what would be england's type?

 

[SilkRoad]

huh? we're typing cultures now? if anything, its the Te taking things as overwhelming generalizations that channels the Fi. i can say as an NT that when it comes to the embrace of reasoning on an objective, canada is more welcoming towards that attitude then Israel (which is very F>T), while the dialogue tends to dismiss emotional expression, and NFs/SFs might feel less at home in Canada then NTs/STs. manners and norms are actually dictated more by Si then Fe, as its less acts of inconsideration and more general breaks from the expected behavior that are considered inappropriate, and the diversity of cultures is only accepted when all the other expectations are met, suggesting inferior Ne.
i'd say Canada is Si>Te>Fi>Ni, or ISTJ.


hmm... israel:
a clear warm hearted and hot tempered, both being more culturally acceptable then reason or rational thought, which can get you stoned in way too many circles. Israel is actually worst then canada on issues of sensitivity, yet in the same time has not developed a culture of accommodating sensitivity, rather instead keeping touch with one's own sensitivity while being insensitive towards each other, a distinct Fi>Te.
i would actually say that israel is one of the rare cultures that are more accepting of intuitive's then it is of sensors, while tending towards divergent spirituality and having the big unknown everywhere from its slang and most common sayings forming the mentality to an economical tendency to take stupid high risks even throughout the middle class, while having an inferior Si which is constantly feeling suppressed by mainstream culture.. and its certainly extroverted, certainly not accepting to regiment and structure (probably a counter-reaction to the overwhelming draft)...
i would say Israel is an ENFP.

this is sot of interesting... but i guess it can correlate to the main topic - what would be england's type?

I think the thread should be split if you guys want to discuss country types...

 

[Xenon]

Here's a Country Type Thread from last November, for all your country typing needs.

Edit: Actually it looks like it's a few years old, but the last posts are more recent.

 

[Istbkleta]

I made the point that it was only some people who responded that way, and that it seemed to have happened to me mainly (only?) since moving to this part of the world, but I guess you didn't notice. *pats head*

Wriggles tail*

Poor attention to details, sorry

Rly?! If anything brits appear to be more accepting of Ti (based purely on never been there

I guess it's hard trying to constantly gauge how people will react/how they see you if it's your aux. I know so little of the way an INFJ thinks.

From what I can gather you guys are pretty weird and head strong. I've noticed a couple of INFJs falling back onto Fe values in hard times even though it's not their forte. Also INFJ's Fe seems more prominent (pushed into people's faces) than an ENFJ's, yet more childish (not accepting the limitations of reality).


Regarding countries: I'd say dif cultures require us to adapt. Ni doesn't sound very adaptive to me. Good luck!

 

[011235813]

When I say I'm sorry and people respond that it's not my fault, I usually say, "I know!"

 

[stalemate]

I typically go with "that sucks" or some
variation.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I think it's a regional thing. I dated an ENTP from Texas and it drove him nuts when I would say that or "Oh, that's too bad. " He thought it was some dumb illogical thing to say, when it just is a way to convey sympathy.

I hated that he always said "Yes, ma'am" or "No, ma'am" to me.

I find it odd how when I (or anyone really) posts threads like this, there are always so many people willing to pile on telling you you're doing it all wrong and that's why you get an odd reaction from a FEW people.

Anytime I make a thread I tell myself I am going to get positive and negative responses and then I am not surprised when that occurs. You can't control how people respond to you. So why care?

 

[EJCC]

When I was in college, I took a personality psychology class. The teacher was explaining a chapter I can't quite remember, but I remember this coming up. He said that people suffering the loss of perhaps a loved one or something of that nature does not need someone to give sympathy by saying your sorry, but instead that it is best to ask the person, "Is there anything I can do for you?"

That's interesting. My first reaction to that idea is to think that it's extremely personal. It seems like a good thing to say to close friends or family if they're going through something bad, but if it's someone you don't know well, then I feel like that question would not only be awkward for the person asking it, but the response from the person you're asking would be "Why on earth are you asking??"

I mean, your teacher is the expert and I'm not. That was just my gut reaction.

I feel compelled to add too - most folks know that the socially graceful thing to do is NOT to say back, "Why, it's not your fault". People who do make a choice to shift the situation to awkward as well, so shouldn't be completely absolved of responsibility there.

"I'm sorry" is a quick shorthand for the extended version, and we all know that. I think too as women we tend to apologize a lot, don't know why we do that, but we do.

The socially appropriate response is simply "Thanks".

That's how I feel about it, too. The only people I've known who said "Why? It's not your fault", have been awkward people in general.

Yeah, I think the thing I worry about in saying "when I went through this, I felt like..." is that they're going to think I'm saying "I KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL" which to me would be a dismissive/presumptuous reaction. If I said anything along those lines, I'd probably qualify it massively. Like, "I know it's not really the same situation, but it might be a bit like when I went through x and y, and I felt like such and such..." But then that's almost over-qualifying it...dunno.

Fe vs. Fi? I feel like I've seen talk similar to this on other threads, about how the NFP/STJ method of comforting others is saying "Here's how I handled it in a similar situation", whereas the NFJ method is more straightforwardly comforting, if that makes sense.

And the downside is that you can get this sort of vibe from it: i.e. the Fi person goes "I know how you feel" and proves it, hoping that the camaraderie will make the person feel like they're not alone, and the Fe person will get upset and think that the Fi attempt at comforting was presumptuous.

Or, you could be very blunt and say "You know damn well what I meant. I was being polite; stop being nitpicky."

I have said almost that exact thing to my INTJ roommate, when we've had the interchange from the OP. But I would never ever try it with an NF, unless I knew them well! And even then, I have some very close INFJ friends who would probably be like this

Wow, I'm surprised to see my own reaction worded so precisely. This is exactly my gut response too. I know that the other person is trying to be kind and sympathizing but I have an emotional reaction that is first almost offended (it can feel like the other person assumes they know the situation well enough to make a value judgment on it deserving sympathy), and subsequently responsible to comfort the other person. Of course, I realize mentally that they are just responding socially, so usually I think little of it, even though it twinges a little emotionally.

And here's the Fe/Fi comforting conflict from the other side!! VERY interesting. *strokes imaginary beard*

 

[SD45T-2]

Re the Canadian thing: I'm a Canadian living in the UK. I don't mind at all if people say "you're American, right?" What I do mind is if they disbelieve me and imply that I'm lying when I say that I'm Canadian. Otherwise it's all good.

You should try telling them about Rush, hockey, and Red Green.

One of my cousins (ENFP would be my guess) is an archaeologist. She's traveled to some places that are very hostile to America. On one trip everyone in the group she was with claimed they were Canadians and made up stories about where they grew up.