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[Fi] Fi - disliking the very idea of trying to turn feelings into words?

The Great One

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Yes, you understand the difference well....


Oh, and for the record, I don't even really grasp much of what you guys are talking about much less relate :p

I once had an ENFP try to put his emotions into words for me and he just couldn't. He told me that there just weren't words that could describe how he was feeling. Then, when he tried to put his feelings into words, it sounded almost med-evil. Fi is a very strange function.
 

lunalum

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I once had an ENFP try to put his emotions into words for me and he just couldn't. He told me that there just weren't words that could describe how he was feeling. Then, when he tried to put his feelings into words, it sounded almost med-evil. Fi is a very strange function.

That is strange.... and that even in the auxiliary position that Fi would be so deep and mysterious. I'm pretty feely but don't have that depth, more like a knob that has settings: excited, bored, frustrated, and totally bleh. Sometimes it seems like Fi? But I go about it so shallowly that it makes things confusing. But I guess it isn't that extremely strange, because I think I experience the same with my rationale for things sometimes.
 

The Great One

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That is strange.... and that even in the auxiliary position that Fi would be so deep and mysterious. I'm pretty feely but don't have that depth, more like a knob that has settings: excited, bored, frustrated, and totally bleh. Sometimes it seems like Fi? But I go about it so shallowly that it makes things confusing. But I guess it isn't that extremely strange, because I think I experience the same with my rationale for things sometimes.

I've had questions about whether I'm ENFP or ENTP and I seem more ENTP because I can always easily express my feelings. Also, I don't seem to be as moral as a typical ENFP, lol
 

Thalassa

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Yeah when I was younger I always used to "hide" what I was writing. I didn't want anyone else to read it. Ever. If I let anyone read what I SERIOUSLY wrote, it was a big major thing. When I first started keeping a Live Journal, I was very distanced and even had a very clear persona (Miss Wiss, and I had this "school marm" thing going on...) and I would get embarrassed even posting things in my friends only posts of my Live Journal.

Clearly, I have come a very long way in my lifetime. However, I think even though I'm much more open now, I still do have that sarcastic or distanced vibe to me from people I don't know well. I also can get very embarrassed sometimes when people reach out to me IRL...depends on the person and the situation.

However, I always need an outlet. My outlets tend to be music, and guys. I feel like I pour a lot of my feelings into whatever guy I happen to be seeing or am in love with. It reminds me of how the Jungian Fi dom "secretly lets their passion flow into their children" or whatever.

People IRL usually know me for quite a while before they see me get emotional, and sometimes they're even shocked at first, because I can seem reserved when first meeting people. Well, either I'm reserved, or I have a very friendly but non-emotional chatty side, that is still guarded I think.

I am extremely emo, though. I don't think I have to tell anyone here that.
 

Thalassa

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While I am an INTJ, I have an extremely high usage of Fi (and a decidedly poor use of Fe) and I understand exactly what you are saying. I write poetry and paint and I feel those express my feelings in a much more comfortable manner. I have also journaled in the past, and I felt just as you do. I would read what I wrote and find it beyond trite. Reading my poetry doesn't generally garner such a negative reaction from me. I think Lady X is right...poetry might be your answer to therapeutically work through your feelings. It helps me.

At any rate, just trying to show some solidarity, here. I get it. It makes perfectly good sense. I often CAN'T even verbalize what I am feeling, but the poetry writing sorts that all out fairly well.

I wonder if it's even harder for IxTJs. It seems so, from what I've observed. Like I know an ISTJ who has Fi-centered personality traits that somewhat remind me of me, when I was seventeen, if I had been covered in a block of ice.

Sometimes I feel bad for IxTJs for this reason. Other times I wanna fuckin' shake 'em.

No offense to you personally.
 

The Great One

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Yeah when I was younger I always used to "hide" what I was writing. I didn't want anyone else to read it. Ever. If I let anyone read what I SERIOUSLY wrote, it was a big major thing. When I first started keeping a Live Journal, I was very distanced and even had a very clear persona (Miss Wiss, and I had this "school marm" thing going on...) and I would get embarrassed even posting things in my friends only posts of my Live Journal.

Clearly, I have come a very long way in my lifetime. However, I think even though I'm much more open now, I still do have that sarcastic or distanced vibe to me from people I don't know well. I also can get very embarrassed sometimes when people reach out to me IRL...depends on the person and the situation.

However, I always need an outlet. My outlets tend to be music, and guys. I feel like I pour a lot of my feelings into whatever guy I happen to be seeing or am in love with. It reminds me of how the Jungian Fi dom "secretly lets their passion flow into their children" or whatever.

People IRL usually know me for quite a while before they see me get emotional, and sometimes they're even shocked at first, because I can seem reserved when first meeting people. Well, either I'm reserved, or I have a very friendly but non-emotional chatty side, that is still guarded I think.

I am extremely emo, though. I don't think I have to tell anyone here that.

Yeah, I kind of figured that after seeing your cat picture.
 

Thalassa

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That is strange.... and that even in the auxiliary position that Fi would be so deep and mysterious. I'm pretty feely but don't have that depth, more like a knob that has settings: excited, bored, frustrated, and totally bleh. Sometimes it seems like Fi? But I go about it so shallowly that it makes things confusing. But I guess it isn't that extremely strange, because I think I experience the same with my rationale for things sometimes.

Yeah Fi is very deep. Like the reason why I used to be so "embarrassed" of things when I was in my teens especially, and even a little into my early twenties, is because everything felt so HUGE and IMPORTANT and MONUMENTAL if I ACTUALLY FELT IT. When my ESFJ ex met me, his mom thought I was "cold" because compared to him being an Fe dom...I seemed pretty much like Daria or something. I actually have had to have therapy and life experience to help draw me out of myself and make it okay to have my intense feelings. I think that's why I'm so intense and proud now, because I spent so much of my earlier life being anxious or embarrassed. I actually feel like my ESFJ ex helped me in this regard because he was so warm, and so insistent about displaying emotion, and he was constantly reaching out. I remember being a teenager and a kid, and having a similar feeling (though not romantic or sexual) toward girls who had Fe, because they seemed like they had motherly qualities, they were so warm and I wondered why I couldn't reach out the way that they could, because I did feel so strongly inside, and when it came out, it seemed to only come out with certain people or at inappropriate times or way too intense.

I think this is part of what my social anxiety stemmed from.

My grandfather was an ISTJ and he very much had this same issue, but to the Nth degree. Even as a 50 or 60 year old man, public displays of affection embarrassed the shit out of him, and sometimes he'd say "I love you" all muffled and self-conscious like he was a young guy instead of a middle-aged or old man. He was also very affectionate and loving toward me as a small child, but the older I got the more he put an intentional wall between us, and I realized that this was the way he was with EVERYONE over the age of ten or twelve years old.

But he had this deep sensitivity that I felt intuitively, instinctively even as a small child. I got mad when other people couldn't see how fragile he could be inside. I even saw him cry a couple of times. I guess it was like my Fi radar picking up on his Fi. He carried this depth inside him, but it was well-hidden.

That's why when I think of IxTJs and their Fi, I think of that dude from Lord of the Rings standing over their tertiary whispering "my precious, my precious" with a paranoid, guarded look toward any "outsiders."
 

The Great One

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Yeah Fi is very deep. Like the reason why I used to be so "embarrassed" of things when I was in my teens especially, and even a little into my early twenties, is because everything felt so HUGE and IMPORTANT and MONUMENTAL if I ACTUALLY FELT IT. When my ESFJ ex met me, his mom thought I was "cold" because compared to him being an Fe dom...I seemed pretty much like Daria or something. I actually have had to have therapy and life experience to help draw me out of myself and make it okay to have my intense feelings. I think that's why I'm so intense and proud now, because I spent so much of my earlier life being anxious or embarrassed. I actually feel like my ESFJ ex helped me in this regard because he was so warm, and so insistent about displaying emotion, and he was constantly reaching out. I remember being a teenager and a kid, and having a similar feeling (though not romantic or sexual) toward girls who had Fe, because they seemed like they had motherly qualities, they were so warm and I wondered why I couldn't reach out the way that they could, because I did feel so strongly inside, and when it came out, it seemed to only come out with certain people or at inappropriate times or way too intense.

I think this is part of what my social anxiety stemmed from.

My grandfather was an ISTJ and he very much had this same issue, but to the Nth degree. Even as a 50 or 60 year old man, public displays of affection embarrassed the shit out of him, and sometimes he'd say "I love you" all muffled and self-conscious like he was a young guy instead of a middle-aged or old man. He was also very affectionate and loving toward me as a small child, but the older I got the more he put an intentional wall between us, and I realized that this was the way he was with EVERYONE over the age of ten or twelve years old.

But he had this deep sensitivity that I felt intuitively, instinctively even as a small child. I got mad when other people couldn't see how fragile he could be inside. I even saw him cry a couple of times. I guess it was like my Fi radar picking up on his Fi. He carried this depth inside him, but it was well-hidden.

That's why when I think of IxTJs and their Fi, I think of that dude from Lord of the Rings standing over their tertiary whispering "my precious, my precious" with a paranoid, guarded look toward any "outsiders."

Yeah, I'm an extremely affectionate person, and don't come off as cold at all. My Fe is very powerful
 

Thalassa

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Yeah, I'm an extremely affectionate person, and don't come off as cold at all. My Fe is very powerful

I love physical affection. Touch is one of my love languages. It has nothing to do with my capacity to be physical. It has more to do with the reserved distance I keep from people I don't know well, or if I don't trust someone, or if they make me angry. It was also partly anxiety. I remember even in the 4th grade being called a "snob" because I was shy.

Me over 25 is a lot different than me under 25.
 

The Great One

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I love physical affection. Touch is one of my love languages. It has nothing to do with my capacity to be physical. It has more to do with the reserved distance I keep from people I don't know well, or if I don't trust someone, or if they make me angry. It was also partly anxiety. I remember even in the 4th grade being called a "snob" because I was shy.

Me over 25 is a lot different than me under 25.

I can just kind of get ins-inc with the other person emotionally and make them feel better. Also, touch is my number one love language.
 

Thalassa

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I can just kind of get ins-inc with the other person emotionally and make them feel better. Also, touch is my number one love language.

Touch is my number one love language. Touch has nothing to do with Fi or Fe. If anything, I would guess it to maybe be more important to people with Se or Si versus Ni or Ne.

No, I don't sync up with other people, unless I genuinely like them or feel a real connection. Then I'm very open. Otherwise it's the me show. When I was a child I could sing, dance, act, and show-off...but interpersonal interactions made me nervous.

I used to feel more comfortable on stage than I did talking to a new person one-on-one. I don't know how much of this is due to having Fi versus Fe, or simply having social anxiety.
 

The Great One

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Touch is my number one love language. Touch has nothing to do with Fi or Fe. If anything, I would guess it to maybe be more important to people with Se or Si versus Ni or Ne.

No, I don't sync up with other people, unless I genuinely like them or feel a real connection. Then I'm very open. Otherwise it's the me show. When I was a child I could sing, dance, act, and show-off...but interpersonal interactions made me nervous.

I used to feel more comfortable on stage than I did talking to a new person one-on-one. I don't know how much of this is due to having Fi versus Fe, or simply having social anxiety.

There are a couple things that seperate Fe and Fi users:

1. Fe users can feel others emotions better than their own, but yet express their feelings and put them into words more easily. Fi users on the other hand, can feel their own emotions better than others, but yet have trouble putting their feelings into words.

2. Fe moral values come from an outside source, such as upbringing or possibly their religion. Fi morals come from the inside and are created by that personal individual. It should also be noted that Fi users often lay out their moral values and tell you what they are, much more easily than Fe users can.

3. Fe is much more into social graces than Fi. Fe users are more likely to be polite, not offend people, and not to go against the group. Fi users don't tend to follow social graces as much, and tend to do things based on their moral values and how they feel about things.

4. Fe is much more self-sacrificing than Fi. Fi is more concerned about what they want than what others want.
 

Thalassa

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There are a couple things that seperate Fe and Fi users:

1. Fe users can feel others emotions better than their own, but yet express their feelings and put them into words more easily. Fi users on the other hand, can feel their own emotions better than others, but yet have trouble putting their feelings into words.

2. Fe moral values come from an outside source, such as upbringing or possibly their religion. Fi morals come from the inside and are created by that personal individual. It should also be noted that Fi users often lay out their moral values and tell you what they are, much more easily than Fe users can.

3. Fe is much more into social graces than Fi. Fe users are more likely to be polite, not offend people, and not to go against the group. Fi users don't tend to follow social graces as much, and tend to do things based on their moral values and how they feel about things.

4. Fe is much more self-sacrificing than Fi. Fi is more concerned about what they want than what others want.

Yes, I can read Jung myself thanks. I'm still not sure what this has to do with you loving physical affection. I don't mean SEXUALLY cold or AFFECTIONATELY cold toward people I actually love. Why would his mom think anything about my physical need for touch? o_0

One more thing: Fi isn't always self-centered or entirely concerned with themselves. It's just that they have to genuinely feel another Fi rationale for thinking of others like "these are my people."

I've seen Fe doms be selfish, also. I can see you have much to learn.
 

The Great One

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Yes, I can read Jung myself thanks. I'm still not sure what this has to do with you loving physical affection. I don't mean SEXUALLY cold or AFFECTIONATELY cold toward people I actually love. Why would his mom think anything about my physical need for touch? o_0

One more thing: Fi isn't always self-centered or entirely concerned with themselves. It's just that they have to genuinely feel another Fi rationale for thinking of others like "these are my people."

I've seen Fe doms be selfish, also. I can see you have much to learn.

Yes, I don't understand Fi that well
 

Thalassa

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Yes, I don't understand Fi that well

It made so much sense to me when I read Jung's Extraverted Feeling type versus the Introverted Feeling type. The "cold" or "childlike" mask ...which seem like two extremes, like an innocent babe in the woods (my ESFJ friend said when she first met me she thought I was so sweet, nice, couldn't stand up to anyone, and pictured me standing in West Virginia feeding Bambi from my hand) or like coming across all Pe (I think the childlike aura could come from Se or Ne rather than Fi, the extroverted perceiving) and playful...or the inward emotional reservation that can seem cold, that hides deep, deep, intense feelings.

Though young Fi is self-contained and even self-centered (and this is why it makes me crazy sometimes in adult IxTJs, because it's like their Fi is permanently somewhat childlike in the tertiary position) it doesn't mean Fi types can't be polite or think of others or want to help others...it's just that if an Fi type is polite, they can explain to you exactly why they were polite, like they have a certain individual ethic for it.

As Fi matures it tends to tap more into universal tolerance, and in an Se/Fi or Fi/Se type, greater and greater empathy would grow for others from having more and more life experiences. Because Fi empathy comes from Fi types RELATING to someone else's pain, like "how would I feel if I were them?" and feeling it...rather than necessary syncing up with what the other person feels.
 

Coriolis

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As Fi matures it tends to tap more into universal tolerance, and in an Se/Fi or Fi/Se type, greater and greater empathy would grow for others from having more and more life experiences. Because Fi empathy comes from Fi types RELATING to someone else's pain, like "how would I feel if I were them?" and feeling it...rather than necessary syncing up with what the other person feels.
Does this even work, though? Does "if I were them" mean "if I were experiencing the same type of situation they are"? In my experience, how I feel in situations is often quite different from how others feel, or at least how they say they feel. This is why I hesitate to make assumptions about other people's reactions and behavior based on my own.

Sometimes I feel bad for IxTJs for this reason. Other times I wanna fuckin' shake 'em.
What reason - because we have only tertiary Fi and aren't that good with it?

Your comment about being possessive of our Fi information was interesting. I do journal sometimes, to include inner feelings, and usually want to burn the pages forthwith because I am paranoid that someone might find and read them.
 

Thalassa

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Does this even work, though? Does "if I were them" mean "if I were experiencing the same type of situation they are"? In my experience, how I feel in situations is often quite different from how others feel, or at least how they say they feel. This is why I hesitate to make assumptions about other people's reactions and behavior based on my own.

I think with Fi dom/aux it's just "instinctive" with us and we don't even consciously think "if I were them" ...it's not even that contrived. We just feel pain for another's suffering. As Fi types grow older, though, I think it does help to develop other functions so that this empathy is as accurate as possible. I think Ni development has really helped me to look at things from other perspectives.

It's weird, that sometimes I can FEEL that other people have Fi, which leads me to my next point...


What reason - because we have only tertiary Fi and aren't that good with it?

Um a lot of times IxTJs can seem self-centered and wayyy too guarded to a much older age because their Fi is tertiary rather than dom/aux, which can be frustrating of course for someone who strongly values Fi. I say that INTJs without Fi development are some of the most infuriating people...but that's not even true. IxTJs always have this little soft spot, even when they're totally immature, so they just seem kind of like a self-congratulatory self-absorbed kid...sometimes when they're 26. I mean xxFPs can be this way as adults, too, but Fi tends to get more and more ethically refined with age and maturity, and this happens more easily in the dom/aux position.

I feel that IxTJs are very sensitive when I'm close to them, though. Like if they actually let you in at all...I swear it's like I feel it. I remember the strong, strong awareness I had of it in my grandfather as a child, like I felt like I understood his inner person, as much as his inner person could be vaguely understood, because he was a very private, guarded individual who tended to show love by deep loyalty, consistency and acts of service, as well as occasional displays of lavish generosity rather than being very "emo."

I knew JTG was an ISTJ for a similar reason. Like he communicates his feelings through music, and told me about himself, and I was like OMG YOU HAVE Fi. And at first it was just a feeling, like an inner knowing, and later he actually described to me verbally manifestations of tertiary Fi in an IxTJ.

However, with strange IxTJs (especially young-ish INTJs) sometimes I have to remind myself that if they are acting bratty, they are actually squishy on the inside.

I think mirrors can frustrate people. Like "your immature Fi reminds me of my bad/immature Fi....arrgh I hate you!"

But on the other hand it can give you a sense of understanding a person.

Your comment about being possessive of our Fi information was interesting. I do journal sometimes, to include inner feelings, and usually want to burn the pages forthwith because I am paranoid that someone might find and read them.

Yep, totally know that feeling, though it was more intense when I was younger, and I've opened up more as I've gotten older.
 

The Great One

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It made so much sense to me when I read Jung's Extraverted Feeling type versus the Introverted Feeling type. The "cold" or "childlike" mask ...which seem like two extremes, like an innocent babe in the woods (my ESFJ friend said when she first met me she thought I was so sweet, nice, couldn't stand up to anyone, and pictured me standing in West Virginia feeding Bambi from my hand) or like coming across all Pe (I think the childlike aura could come from Se or Ne rather than Fi, the extroverted perceiving) and playful...or the inward emotional reservation that can seem cold, that hides deep, deep, intense feelings.

Though young Fi is self-contained and even self-centered (and this is why it makes me crazy sometimes in adult IxTJs, because it's like their Fi is permanently somewhat childlike in the tertiary position) it doesn't mean Fi types can't be polite or think of others or want to help others...it's just that if an Fi type is polite, they can explain to you exactly why they were polite, like they have a certain individual ethic for it.

As Fi matures it tends to tap more into universal tolerance, and in an Se/Fi or Fi/Se type, greater and greater empathy would grow for others from having more and more life experiences. Because Fi empathy comes from Fi types RELATING to someone else's pain, like "how would I feel if I were them?" and feeling it...rather than necessary syncing up with what the other person feels.

Why would empathy be stronger in an Se<Fi user, than an Ne<Fi user?
 

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Verbalizing ?


That is nothing compared to searching for logical and strategic inconsistencies in the persons Fi. While in the end you make a chart of how many of their feelings lead to something realistic in the given situation , how much of them are non sense or bitching and how many are mixed.


And in the end you give them the chart and openly suggest what they should do to solve the problem(s). In order to clean the negative side of the emotional chart.



Dont worry I dont do this any more since I matured.
 

The Great One

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Verbalizing ?


That is nothing compared to searching for logical and strategic inconsistencies in the persons Fi. While in the end you make a chart of how many of their feelings lead to something realistic in the given situation , how much of them are non sense or bitching and how many are mixed.


And in the end you give them the chart and openly suggest what they should do to solve the problem(s). In order to clean the negative side of the emotional chart.



Dont worry I dont do this any more since I matured.

Give me an example of an Fi flow chart. This sounds interesting.
 
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