[MBTI General] Is my lack of certainty about other people an indication that I'm not iNtuitive?

[SilkRoad]

I have to admit this is something I wonder about. There are so many INFJs, in particular, who seem quite certain about their insights into others. I mean, I've heard other types say stuff like this too, but the "I have never been wrong about anyone, ever" thing seems to be very INFJ.

I tend to think that "I have never been wrong about anyone" is a necessarily unbalanced viewpoint and is more indicative of an inflated ego or over-confidence, than it's indicative of N vs S. However, even people I would consider more mature and balanced Ns often seem to say "when I feel a certain way, I'm never wrong about people's motives - even if it only happens sometimes", etc.

I just don't relate to this a great deal. My personal opinion is that I am indeed an Ni user, but that I am also a 6 enneagram and that this makes me question myself and my insights all the time. I don't have enormous self-confidence about my insights into people. One of the things I am working on, actually, is trusting my gut instincts more readily. Also, hanging onto my first impressions of people, and paying more attention to those, instead of letting them get swept away on a tide of warm feelings when I get to know someone better. I am finding more and more that those very first impressions are usually accurate. But I doubt they are 100% accurate. And I think that both N and S types can have very accurate gut feelings. I also have the problem sometimes that I get very strong feelings about someone or something but I can't quite put my finger on WHAT those feelings are, or to what conclusion I should follow them.

The area where I use Ni very freely (more consciously than I do in everyday life, perhaps) and am highly confident about it is in the aesthetic/cultural areas where I have some expertise. I've had a lot of confirmation in those areas, both from within myself and from others, that my insights, patterning and connection-drawing are unusually insightful and accurate (for what's that worth, as far as you can say "accurate" in the area of the arts.) But that's something different, to me. Other human beings are such wild cards. You can discern patterns of behaviour and trends and develop more understanding of how others act, or will act, based on those. But there seems to be an N tendency to think that Ns understand others better than others understand themselves. Sometimes true, perhaps...but nebulous at best.

So does all this make me more of an S? Or am I just an SJ-like INFJ who doesn't take her own instincts too seriously, perhaps not seriously enough, sometimes...which is what I suspect.

 

[KDude]

I'd think it'd be weak "F" (be it Fi or Fe... just in different ways). It's why I stopped typing as one.

 

[SilkRoad]

I'd think it'd be weak "F" (be it Fi or Fe... just in different ways). It's why I stopped typing as one.

That is a very interesting perspective. Do you mean that strong F types are more likely to think that they "know it all" in regards to others?

Thing is, I'm a very strong F, so it wouldn't apply in my case, I don't think. I have occasionally tested as E, or S, or P (not all together!!)...but never a T, not even once to my recollection, at least since I exited my teens or thereabouts.

I'm very heavy on the F and I have actually tested more than once as an Fe-dom. I think my Fe is very strong in part due to being IxFJ but partly due to societal/community demands.


EDIT: I should perhaps clarify that this isn't something to do with feeling I simply don't "get" people, or feeling I have lousy social skills, or anything like that. I really think that I relate to a lot of different kinds of people well, and I've certainly had independent feedback to that effect. I'm quite fascinated by people and I like to figure out what makes them tick and how I can get the best out of them, so to speak. I like facilitating human relationships so that everyone feels happier and so that there is a healthy environment for people to be individuals and to express themselves and so on, also without constantly treading on each other's toes.

It's really just that I hardly ever feel I have some sort of magic radar for people. I seldom feel I have infallible instincts and that sort of thing. And it seems to be a common thread with N-aux and dom to feel that way.

 

[INTP]

this isnt about N, this is about a stereotype

 

[SilkRoad]

this isnt about N, this is about a stereotype

Well, yeah. I can tell when people are either very unbalanced INFJs (not so sure about other intuitive types) or not INFJs at all, because they're doing the streotypical "I AM AN INFALLIBLE PSYCHIC" thing.

It's just that I seem to have EVEN LESS of that tendency that N types who I genuinely find to be very balanced and realistic about themselves. And I didn't exactly want to say "well, this plainly just makes me a super-balanced and realistic INFJ."

I really think the e6 makes me question and second-guess everything and that has a lot to do with it too. It's kind of good and bad in that regard.

 

[KDude]

That is a very interesting perspective. Do you mean that strong F types are more likely to think that they "know it all" in regards to others?

Fair enough. I was just tossing it out there, from my pov. I don't think strong F types know it all, but I think F is kind of a "people oriented" attitude. Even Fi, which sometimes gets defined as just a personal "values" function, is also a function with an eye on "humanity" too.. On what it should be, what ideas or expressions crystalize it, etc.. Fe is more environmental, but often amounts to the same thing.

 

[SilkRoad]

Fair enough. I was just tossing it out there, from my pov. I don't think strong F types know it all, but I can think F is kind of a "people oriented" function. Even Fi, which sometimes gets defined as a personal "values" function, is also a function with an eye on "humanity" too.. On what it should be, what ideas or expressions crystalize it, etc.. Fe is more environmental, but often amounts to the same thing.

Yeah, definitely F is people oriented (depending on how selfish/unselfish the person is, it tends to either mean they're enraptured with themselves, or interested in others). I kind of thought that was what you were getting at. I guess T types might be more likely to throw up their hands and say "well, people/human issues aren't my strong point anyway, so..."

 

[KDude]

I guess T types might be more likely to throw up their hands and say "well, people/human issues aren't my strong point anyway, so..."

Pretty much. I don't know how to address most of those things. Even if I say something, I'll change my mind anyways. I would say some TJs might do it better though. They have all kinds of ideals on how the world should work, but it's not the same as Fi dom/aux exactly.

As for Fe type of relations, every once in awhile I get the bad idea of thinking I understand, trying to create some kind of "closeness", but then failing. Enough fails and you realize it's not your strong point. I also know it's not strong because it literally creates an out of body sensation.. I'm all screwed up trying to figure things out, if by chance someone holds my interest. I also know I can read things really badly and see offenses when there might not be any. And look like an ass because of it. So that all said, I'm not afraid of saying I don't know people anymore. lol

 

[Santosha]

I have rarely heard my good INFJ friend air insights of what will occur. And this is how i distinguish Ni vs Ne.. What will it be vs what could it be. I think you are right to believe that e6 cp would continually doubt their own insights. It seems like I've noticed this doubting ones Ni in a few different threads for both ni doms and aux, but regardless of the doubting how often do you find yourself trying to see what something will be instead of what it is or has been?


Si dom would pay more attention to the object, evaluating it and storing its impressions.
Ni would pay less attention to the object itself, look for some kind of symbolic meaning and pattern through archetypes, I think.

Consider how sensory focused you are...

 

[SilkRoad]

I have rarely heard my good INFJ friend air insights of what will occur. And this is how i distinguish Ni vs Ne.. What will it be vs what could it be. I think you are right to believe that e6 cp would continually doubt their own insights. It seems like I've noticed this doubting ones Ni in a few different threads for both ni doms and aux, but regardless of the doubting how often do you find yourself trying to see what something will be instead of what it is or has been?


Si dom would pay more attention to the object, evaluating it and storing its impressions.
Ni would pay less attention to the object itself, look for some kind of symbolic meaning and pattern through archetypes, I think.

Consider how sensory focused you are...

Yeah... I'm pretty future-oriented, especially in terms of worrying about things and possibilities. And symbols/patterns/archetypes mean a great deal to me.

I am probably less afraid to make what I'd think of as leaps/assumptions (even if based on a lot of instinctive weight) when it comes to patterns based on my personal interests and fascinations, rather than thinking I know all about what other people are about or what other people will do. I'm a huge fan of meaningful coincidences...at the moment I keep seeing people reading George Orwell on the subway and it is freaking me out...it reminds me of a poem I was supposed to write...

I really think that the e6 has done a lot to give me a somewhat different flavour of INFJ in this regard. I basically do think I'm INFJ and don't have much significant doubt about it. And I feel like I haven't expressed myself that well in this thread. It's obviously not that ALL Ni/Ne users are certain about other people and their motives. But I feel like I miss out on a lot of the "magical"/"click"/"just knowing" stuff which is supposed to come with Ni. At least, in terms of human relationships. I feel it a lot in terms of my personal fascinations/worldview etc. Like the meaningful coincidences everywhere - I can never decide if they're objectively meaningful or just because I want them to be.

 

[Randomnity]

I kinda doubt those people are actually right as often as they claim to believe. I think it's likely to be a combination of 1) legit good people-reading skills and empathy 2) confirmation bias/selective memories/selective interpretation and rationalizing 3) exaggeration to self or others, whether consciously or subconsciously and 4) desire to be part of a "special" group, and overidentifying with (ridiculously) described group traits.

It's silly but mostly harmless, much like the common INTJ insistence that they are always right. Maybe it's a dom-Ni thing - it seems SO RIGHT in your mind that you wll often end up twisting the facts to suit the "insight" that you had. They may well be right much of the time, depending on the person, but definitely not all the time.

My best friend is INFJ - he's often right when reading people's intentions, and often wrong - sometimes disastrously, and on a few occasions when it's clear to me that he's misreading the person. That doesn't make him a sensor, it makes him human.

fwiw, you seem pretty clearly INFJ, and a well-balanced one at that.

edit: also I see a trend for Ni-doms to state things far more forcefully than they actually believe, so that may be a factor as well.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I've noticed that S types, especially mature ones or those with life experience, are actually more accurate about people's intentions than I am. I pretty much suck at knowing people's intentions, or what someone is about; sizing someone up.

I guess because my Ni is busy looking below the surface finding what is a person's true underlying persona/core, their unconscious substance, is about. This is not intentional on my part, it's just how I am and what I do. Little good this does me in the 'real world,' but I think it does help me to see the essence of a person. And I find that beautiful. Sometimes especially so.

 

[FDG]

In socionics you would probably be a Fi-INFj, so relatively more ISFj-like and feeling-like and IJ-like. Which would explain your feelings. I don't know how such a construct could be translated in MBTI terms.

 

[SilkRoad]

Thanks all.

[MENTION=857]FDG[/MENTION] I'm definitely a more ISFJ-like INFJ, and a lot of type 6s are ISFJ or ISTJ, apparently. I don't identify a lot with Fi though (in fact I find it quite hard to comprehend in a lot of ways). But then, I don't know a lot about socionics.

[MENTION=6336]AphroditeGoneAwry[/MENTION] I think looking below the surface can sometimes get you right to the truth/to the essence of things - and sometimes lead you seriously astray. So, yeah. That's human, too.

[MENTION=206]Randomnity[/MENTION] I think you make a very good point about something feeling so right in your head that you can MAKE it right, force it to be right, use its "rightness" as a starting point, and that being an Ni-dom tendency. Personally, I think I also don't like putting myself "out there" to get shot down. Sometimes I reach very definite conclusions about people. I might judge someone harshly and definitively when I've reached a point of real anger and hurt with them. But I'll keep most of it to myself. I may feel very very right and sure about them, but I know it's subjective too. Hard to explain. I guess I hedge my bets a lot.

 

[Reverie]

Most of the time I don't get any hunches or anything unusual about people, sometimes when I'm preoccupied with something I don't even notice their physical body standing in front of me and I'm prone to bumping into people. I'm very easily distracted by my thoughts at times. I think of it more like a fart. It happens unexpectedly and without warning that I get some sudden insight. It's not something that happens at will at my command. I'd make a pretty bad psychic. I personally think ENFJs and ENFPs are better at sussing people out. I think first of all they are more interested in them in general... ;D
I see the whole thing as a sudden unrelated weird piece of information popping up in my head at an unpredictable time. Sometimes I get a very strong impression of someone and if that happens I'm usually right. Most of the time it's just nothing, no impression out of the ordinary. More often than not I don't care about my surroundings and what's going on enough to be even paying attention. Unless I'm relaxing by observing extra intently and intentionally not thinking.

Now group atmospheres I'm sensitive to and the emotional dynamics in them.

Generally the whole INFJs are psychic label thing is a huge disservice. It's misleading. That said I'm quite spiritual and have had unusual experiences like hauntings. So what can I say? I think talking about Ni is a "damned if you do damned if you don't" type a deal. Mostly I'd say I'm not so particularly interested in people as to be thinking about them all the time trying to sniff them out anyway, to be brutally honest. I'm more interested in the said archetypes and things...

 

[MacGuffin]

I kinda doubt those people are actually right as often as they claim to believe. I think it's likely to be a combination of 1) legit good people-reading skills and empathy 2) confirmation bias/selective memories/selective interpretation and rationalizing 3) exaggeration to self or others, whether consciously or subconsciously and 4) desire to be part of a "special" group, and overidentifying with (ridiculously) described group traits.

It's silly but mostly harmless, much like the common INTJ insistence that they are always right. Maybe it's a dom-Ni thing - it seems SO RIGHT in your mind that you wll often end up twisting the facts to suit the "insight" that you had. They may well be right much of the time, depending on the person, but definitely not all the time.

My best friend is INFJ - he's often right when reading people's intentions, and often wrong - sometimes disastrously, and on a few occasions when it's clear to me that he's misreading the person. That doesn't make him a sensor, it makes him human.

fwiw, you seem pretty clearly INFJ, and a well-balanced one at that.

edit: also I see a trend for Ni-doms to state things far more forcefully than they actually believe, so that may be a factor as well.

Oh good, someone wrote a post even better than I was intending so I can just quote it!

 

[KDude]

Thanks all.

[MENTION=857]FDG[/MENTION] I'm definitely a more ISFJ-like INFJ, and a lot of type 6s are ISFJ or ISTJ, apparently. I don't identify a lot with Fi though (in fact I find it quite hard to comprehend in a lot of ways). But then, I don't know a lot about socionics.

Like FDG says, there isn't a direct correlation with Socionics. Socionics was built from the ground up as a model for intertype relations, and some of the function definitions are reconfigured towards this. Fi in Socionics is still about a "personal values" system, but when it comes to friends, a lot of it would revolve around forming quiet, strong bonds and shared values. Fe is expressive and conveys feeling at all times. A relationship can dissipate if others aren't receptive. A Fi dominant wouldn't doubt closeness merely because of a lack of external expression. Once they've formed a friendship, it's hard to break. Same goes for enemies. lol

Something like that..

 

[SilkRoad]

Like FDG says, there isn't a direct correlation with Socionics. Socionics was built from the ground up as a model for intertype relations, and some of the function definitions are reconfigured towards this. Fi in Socionics is still about a "personal values" system, but when it comes to friends, a lot of it would revolve around forming quiet, strong bonds and shared values. Fe is expressive and conveys feeling at all times. A relationship can dissipate if others aren't receptive. A Fi dominant wouldn't doubt closeness merely because of a lack of external expression. Once they've formed a friendship, it's hard to break. Same goes for enemies. lol

Something like that..

Ok, I see - hmm, maybe I need to look at socionics a bit more...I do relate (at least somewhat) to what you say about its "Fi" above.

 

[Reverie]

I find it slightly annoying though that people tend to define Ni as "things that pop in into Ni doms heads that are just ideas that they take as gospel for some reason cause they are deluded narcissists" It's not like we have ideas so rarely that when we have one we always think it's true.
So shame on people for being so closed minded and claiming that the whole function is bogus. It's not. nor is it
I hope that Nardi research continues and actually validates some of the experiences Ni doms experience.
Here's Dario Nardi's description:

Introverted Intuiting is more than a font of revelations, realizations, and inspiring visions. It is a cognitive process that we can actively engage to produce a sophisticated result. What happens varies depending on our psychological response when called to engage it.

Table 4: lifecycle of introverted Intuiting
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1) strange experience, experience a premonition or strange "knowing", feel pulled to the symbolic, archetypal or mysterious, suddenly realize an "ah ha!" answer out of no where

2) magical guide, follow a vision or dream of how things will be in the future, rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict or transform, gain a profound realization from a mystical state or catharsis


3) cognitive tool, freely produce complex insights into problems and issues not yet encountered, enhance oneself for a situation by bringing in other aspects of oneself, foresee results of applying intuitive insights and pre-adjust

4) growth, catalyst, create by partnering with the unconscious, conceive of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal create transcendent experiences or solutions that transcend a problem


The “stages” are for organizational purposes and reflect points along a continuum. Typically, if introverted Intuiting is dominant, then stages 1 and 2 show in childhood, stage 3 shows in adolescence and one’s twenties, and stage 4 hopefully shows somewhat later. Where we are is somewhat “fuzzy.” A thirty-something INFJ or INTJ may function at stage 3 on a daily basis, visit stage 4 during peak moments of creativity and leadership, and respond from stage 2 when under stress or playing around. Other personality types mature into introverted Intuiting more slowly and get less successful results. For personality types that use introverted Intuiting as a second, third or sixth function, an adult ENFJ, ENTJ, INFP, INTP, ISFP or ISTP would likely engage introverted Intuiting at stage 1 or 2, with peak moments at 3 if well developed.
Our human inheritance provides us with instinctual stage 1 experiences. For introverted Intuiting, archetypes and a capacity for mystical experiences are hardwired into the brain. For stage 2, culture provides both socially-normative and alternative ways for us to engage each function. Most “magic guides” such as tarot readers or secret societies are outside mainstream society but the culture provides these for us. In contrast, stage 3 is our personalized cognitive toolbox. It is diverse and sophisticated. We use it toward personal ends, whether to help solve a scientific mystery, creatively build a business, or further develop our human potential. Broadly, usage allows us to solve problems that do not yet exist and provides insights into issues we have not yet faced. (This is “active” foreseeing.) Stage 4 is a synthesis of the others. The result of engaging it shifts people and paradigms, and produces heroic results.

Note: A person “engages” a function. This does not necessarily mean the person consciously decides to use the function. Rather, the person as an organism or whole system is engaging in the function. A person might engage a function unconsciously. This definition moves us away from thinking of functions as entities or “homunculi” that act separately from the organism.

http://www.darionardi.com/functions.html

I think if you're a Ni dom that would sound familiar to you and not weird or alien or bogus. It would sound like you.

 

[RaptorWizard]

What is intuition?