[MBTI General] Is my lack of certainty about other people an indication that I'm not iNtuitive?

[SilkRoad]

I think the problem is it turns us into some kind of caricatures, when there are many concrete benefits that you have with Ni. One is to be able able to reframe events, which comes in handy if you're for example a psychologist, because you can actually help people who are stuck in a mental rut. I think we don't see it as a simple black and white thing but how to communicate that in a way that encompasses all the different aspects of what any one thing is. That's an artform in itself. ;D

I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
I think one major problem is in commmunication and HOW you communicate a subject. Language is somewhat limited and in real life you have to condense things to communicate anything. Otherwise you'll not say anything at all because it'll come out in a crude and biased way no matter how hard you try.

I like your point about reframing. And re: confirmation bias, I think a lot has to do with self-awareness, and any type can have that, or not have that.

A few people I'd like to see comments from :

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]
[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]
[MENTION=13209]Wanderer[/MENTION]
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

 

[highlander]

Ne dom judginess

As a few have already mentioned, I think that INJs (both F and T) can be in the habit of saying things more declaratively than they realize.

Here’s the post Esoteric Wench alluded to, which highlander wrote. I agree that it’s a good ‘un. I especially like (and agree with) the way he phrased the paragraph about Ni doms.

And I agree with sentiments expressed (in this thread) that the psychic/mystic shtick does INJs a disservice.

I guess I forgot to say something about Ne doms in my post. I think they seem to not be judgey at all on the outside but they can be a bit judgey on the inside because their auxiliary function is an introverted judging function. So, the Ti or Fi does have some judgeyness to it.

 

[violaine]

Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer.

I have a constantly running inner dialogue of hunches. I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figured it out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I'm not super risk-averse. I love taking a bit of a risk. (Actually, thinking about it, my entire life is made up of taking leaps to get to where I want). I don't know if that's Ni related.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think everyone SHOULD question their perceptions...I guess it's just finding a balance between doing it too much.

well said. The media and other aspects of popular culture encourages people to lash onto sound bites and then treat them like wholistic, absolute truth. We are taught flawed thinking skills especially when it comes to passing judgment on other people, so it is a refreshing to hear someone see the value in rethinking assumptions.

It may be in part that I apply the skill of empathy on a daily basis for my jobs, especially when I play music for the sick and dying, or when I'm teaching students with any level of special needs, but I'm comfortable viewing situations from perspectives outside my own. This is a strength because it provides a lot of information to work with to understand and make choices, but it has two major drawbacks. The first is I can so easily absorb other perspectives that I get overwhelmed by all the subtle (and masses of unconscious) information which takes a long time to process. The second drawback is that I rarely get angry because I end up understanding too much about the person to just feel some of that certain, simplified view of the world that justifies and bolsters up good old rage. I can still feel hurt, but I know enough about why the person did it to see the cause that produced the effect. I still need to find ways to express frustration over my own hurt even if I do understand what happened ( or in some cases I have a few compelling theories that could explain the hurtful behavior)

 

[entropie]

I have to admit this is something I wonder about. There are so many INFJs, in particular, who seem quite certain about their insights into others. I mean, I've heard other types say stuff like this too, but the "I have never been wrong about anyone, ever" thing seems to be very INFJ.

I tend to think that "I have never been wrong about anyone" is a necessarily unbalanced viewpoint and is more indicative of an inflated ego or over-confidence, than it's indicative of N vs S. However, even people I would consider more mature and balanced Ns often seem to say "when I feel a certain way, I'm never wrong about people's motives - even if it only happens sometimes", etc.

I just don't relate to this a great deal. My personal opinion is that I am indeed an Ni user, but that I am also a 6 enneagram and that this makes me question myself and my insights all the time. I don't have enormous self-confidence about my insights into people. One of the things I am working on, actually, is trusting my gut instincts more readily. Also, hanging onto my first impressions of people, and paying more attention to those, instead of letting them get swept away on a tide of warm feelings when I get to know someone better. I am finding more and more that those very first impressions are usually accurate. But I doubt they are 100% accurate. And I think that both N and S types can have very accurate gut feelings. I also have the problem sometimes that I get very strong feelings about someone or something but I can't quite put my finger on WHAT those feelings are, or to what conclusion I should follow them.

The area where I use Ni very freely (more consciously than I do in everyday life, perhaps) and am highly confident about it is in the aesthetic/cultural areas where I have some expertise. I've had a lot of confirmation in those areas, both from within myself and from others, that my insights, patterning and connection-drawing are unusually insightful and accurate (for what's that worth, as far as you can say "accurate" in the area of the arts.) But that's something different, to me. Other human beings are such wild cards. You can discern patterns of behaviour and trends and develop more understanding of how others act, or will act, based on those. But there seems to be an N tendency to think that Ns understand others better than others understand themselves. Sometimes true, perhaps...but nebulous at best.

So does all this make me more of an S? Or am I just an SJ-like INFJ who doesn't take her own instincts too seriously, perhaps not seriously enough, sometimes...which is what I suspect.

I think one shouldnt mix intuition with life experience. one thing is for sure: one can never be sure what other peoples motives are. Its an equation with infinite outcomes and even if you think you have narrowed a possible peoples behaviour down to only a few results, you can at some point just flip a coin and pray for this or that to happen. Thats what separates people from machines.

Intuition is a way of perceiving the World. The very general difference between a Sensor and an Intuitive is that the sensor is more in the real world while the intuitive is more in a fantasy world. Thats about it. Intuitives that think they have a better understanding of people or thinks like hunches or epiphanies or whatsoever, have lost it. We are all prone to the same simple concept of cause and effect and deduction and induction like anybody else. It may be possible that intuitives are more likely to come up with stuff, cause they think out of boxes but thats no magical force or whatsoever.

I'ld rather have the theory that a sensor is due to his foundation in reality more likely to have a better understanding of people than an intuitive is. Just due to life experience. But everything beyond that is religious nonsense or mystical nonsense and I wouldnt go too far.

 

[SilkRoad]

Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer.

I have a constant running inner dialogue of hunches. I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figuredit out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I'm not super risk-averse, in fact I love taking a bit of a risk. (Actually, thinking about it, my entire life is made up of taking leaps to get to where I want). I don't know if that's Ni related.

It definitely sounds Ni-related.

I relate to some of what you say here. Flashes of something, but then wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, and getting tripped up that way - yeah. That's part of my whole "listening to the little nagging voices more" project. I feel like my feelings towards people often cloud the issue and make things very hard to read, though. Some people I don't "read" all that much because I'm just not that interested in them. If I develop romantic feelings toward someone I find it extraordinarily difficult. Even just warm platonic feelings in general can cloud things. I want too much to give them the benefit of the doubt then, I think - even if the voices are screaming at me.

I get a ton of feelings/impressions coming at me all the time - but I don't exactly have a quiet mind (more like racing mind) and perhaps there is too much background noise to know what the message is, often...

I...kind of relate to what you say about people reading? But from what you say I think I came to it later. I mostly had at least a close friendship or two throughout my life growing up, but overall I had a sort of "I prefer the people in books, because they're sooo much easier to get along with" thing going. I feel like I was more INTJ-like for a long time. Though now I don't think I'm INTJ-like at all. But I used to be more interested in concepts than people, for sure. That has changed, probably especially since age 25 or so and it makes sense as personality tends to settle down by then.

I don't come from a very sociable family although aspects of my life have always been very social. We always tended to do our own thing and not get very involved with other people, I think. (I think that may have placed a bit of a handicap on me that I later had to overcome, actually). We're all shy in our own different ways - all IxxJs. I think I've actually turned out to be the backslapping extrovert of the family and it's probably partly because I've moved away and met a ton of different types of people, but it's partly nature too, I guess. The more I think about it, I think a lot of the feelings I've expressed in this thread have to do with the dynamics I grew up with. The way I've turned out though, I'm both more ready to adapt to other people than the rest of my family - and also more easily hurt by other people. Unless I'm much mistaken. (Though I am an awful lot like my dad.)

As much as I like other people, they scare me too. Their unpredictability and capacity to hurt others scares me, and even if I were to tell myself "oh, I can see what you're doing and why", it wouldn't change that unpredictability and capacity to hurt.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think the problem is it turns us into some kind of caricatures, when there are many concrete benefits that you have with Ni. One is to be able able to reframe events, which comes in handy if you're for example a psychologist, because you can actually help people who are stuck in a mental rut. I think we don't see it as a simple black and white thing but how to communicate that in a way that encompasses all the different aspects of what any one thing is. That's an artform in itself. ;D



I think confirmation bias is something that you're quite naturally aware of if you can see an event or matter from several angles. I don't think other's are aware of us being aware of it. Like many things that's one that should be mentioned in any conversation...from a practical standpoint it would make very long conversations...
In general I would say that INFJs (atleast the older ones who've been around to observe things for a long time) tend to be very aware of confirmation bias constantly.
It makes some normal human functions hard. Try being angry at someone. ;D Doesn't really work easy unless you willfully and rigidly decide to take the low road and not see the event from many perspectives: yours theirs, the neigbour's, the neighbour's dog's, from a group dynamic POV, from a spiritual POV, from an efficiency POV...it's an issue for me atleast. ;D
I think one major problem is in commmunication and HOW you communicate a subject. Language is somewhat limited and in real life you have to condense things to communicate anything. Otherwise you'll not say anything at all because it'll come out in a crude and biased way no matter how hard you try.

Many good thoughts here and I just finished a post about the difficulty feeling anger when viewing multiple perspectives also. I enjoyed reading your post because it expresses a deeply thought through approach to life and relating to other people. I'll retread it because there is a lot there.

When you mention the limitations of communication are you implying that it is easy to sound more certain and final than what the actual thought processes are? I think that has happened to me, and I feel frustration with language because it always feels like a crude representation of the actual concepts.

 

[violaine]

Yeah, I was going to say that perhaps you were focused on things other than people... (But I'm on my phone and not able to edit my posts quickly enough). And perhaps you were not so much of a sideline dweller. I was definitely that, for reasons you prob understand and so I just turned to watching people.

And lest I sound um, pretentious or something, I have to say I feel dumb as a rock sometimes - like the time I didn't notice my driving instructor had two fingers and part of his hand missing until the eighth lesson. (And the whole needing at least eight lessons to learn to co-ordinate all the parts needed to drive. But, hmm, my biggest problem then was that I always needed to know what the aim of something was. What I was working towards. I'd just mess things up otherwise. The down side of having a forward focus.)

 

[KDude]

Do you get flashes of something and then feel bad for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt? I know that has hamstrung me a bit in the past... But I listen to my own self more these days and the flashes are clearer. I have a constant running inner dialogue of hunches.

I don't even know how I'd be in life without that. I think it's that I've watched people since I can remember and a lot of behavior is predictable... And for me it's like reading. I can't not read words in front of me. It's an automatic process I don't have to guide and don't consciously go through laborious steps to accomplish. Same with people reading. It just comes to me so clearly sometimes. And, ugh, hate to put myself out there like this but I am right, so often. Though, I actually try not to take too much notice anymore because what does it mean if I was right? I got a bit of a head start on a few other people who figuredit out later, that's all. I also just think its because I have a predictive mindset in general. I absolutely love spotting a trend, a good stock and benefitting from doing something about it. I like taking leaps. I don't know if that's Ni related.

Man, I suck at this. I might be better at hunches when it comes to some situations or actions. I can see a sort of domino effect there, but not people. One situation comes to mind where a new person came into a circle of friends, and for some reason, he provoked suspicion in me. I told the friend who invited him that I thought there'd be trouble. He laughed about it. And this guy kept showing up and everyone was getting closer..he fit in right away. It annoyed me.. I was hoping to say "I told you so" when he screwed everyone over. Fast forward a year -- or to the present - and he's one of the funniest as well as observant people I know. It was stupid to not trust him. I respect him nowadays, but it just goes to show what a poor initial impression I had, based off of trends or patterns. And this isn't exactly an isolated incident. It also happens in the reverse. Someone I might initially get good impressions of ends up causing a lot of drama later.

Not that I'm totally crap at reading. It's much different if I have actual things to go by (probably Se). It's best for me to ignore things that aren't there.

 

[SilkRoad]

Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

I'm maybe a little too self-aware or too reluctant to contradict myself and look like an idiot, to do this. But so many people will tell you that they were right about someone all along, when you know from what they said that they totally changed horses mid-stream. I have an ESFJ friend who would do that all the time. She'll be quite infatuated with someone for a while, going on about how lovely and wonderful they are - then when things go a bit wrong, you'll hear her saying "oh, I never liked her. I always knew she was dodgy/up to no good/not a nice person. I'm never wrong about people" (yeah, I've heard her say that). Hmmm.

 

[entropie]

people say a lot when the day is long.

 

[violaine]

Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

I'm maybe a little too self-aware or too reluctant to contradict myself and look like an idiot, to do this. But so many people will tell you that they were right about someone all along, when you know from what they said that they totally changed horses mid-stream. I have an ESFJ friend who would do that all the time. She'll be quite infatuated with someone for a while, going on about how lovely and wonderful they are - then when things go a bit wrong, you'll hear her saying "oh, I never liked her. I always knew she was dodgy/up to no good/not a nice person. I'm never wrong about people" (yeah, I've heard her say that). Hmmm.

And perhaps because her behavior makes you cringe a bit, it makes you not want any part of being like that? (I actually try to keep my mouth shut about my people hunches. They only relate to me anyway). The older I get, the more I'm turning my focus away from people and towards things that are less difficult to make myself understood about. And profitable.

I agree that upbringing and family dynamics also play into it. My family were very sociable and none of them were at all self-conscious. So, really different to how I was. I spent most of my childhood wondering how they did it in order to try to get there too. I was thrust into social situations a lot. I would sit back and watch. (Wow, I sound like such a creepy kid).

And my father made a living through fairly risk intensive means for a sizable portion of his life. I saw that taking risks could pay off. I was quite risk averse and not very self-confident as a kid. I felt I had it in me if I could just develop myself. So I just took notes from the sidelines until I felt confident enough to make my way.

 

[BlackCat]

Probably Ni making you 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th... guess everything you see about people. I'm an S and I'm very, very certain about my perceptions of people.

 

[UniqueMixture]

[MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION]: I dunno. I feel like isfjs are good ar reading the body language of "drama" and tend to avoid it. Usually infjs are good at it, but can be drawn tp it if they have codependent tendencies.

 

[violaine]

I also think you have to go through the process of being wrong in order to hone things. I feel like hunches can either be flimsy and underdeveloped or well developed depending upon whether they are pushed to the side or seized upon and investigated.

I also think it's important to note whether you're overlaying something you've noticed with your own judgements. Or deriving validation or pleasure from it. I think it's good to try to take oneself out of it as much as possible. e.g. Not to be the catty guy or girl looking to take people down for one's own ends or for gossip value. I think that approach helps combat confirmation bias too, because there's less of a personal payoff.

I'm kind of talking in circles now and not being precise enough, so I'll leave off for a bit.

 

[Reverie]

When you mention the limitations of communication are you implying that it is easy to sound more certain and final than what the actual thought processes are? I think that has happened to me, and I feel frustration with language because it always feels like a crude representation of the actual concepts.

Yeah...I mean the whole personality issues comes to play. There are the several points of view and dynamics that you perceive inside, with varying levels of clarity and intricacy. When do we feel a need to express anything at all as value judgements are concerned? There is some kind of a need. I think that's when personality comes to play. When I think of what a personality is it's like it's arbitrary: We're born somewhere by chance and are raised in a specific surrounding with a set of values and ideas and appreciations and that has a bearing on communication style. I'm from a secular background where scientific knowledge is appreciated so I don't mind getting down and dirty e.g. kind of dissecting religions in a much more careless way than someone who's raised in a very religious setting. I think they'd be much more careful about such things. I found my first sniff of a real sense of freedom to express anything in music and after developing a series of attitudes, affections, decisions, habits and life choices most my friends are quite subculture non mainstream where it's very acceptable to express critical opinions of certain (not all ;D) things and the style of conversing is quite blunt and to the point attacking issues head on.
In effect I think that though my inner landscape and ideas may be quite refined and diverse, my habitual style is a tad combative and poignant. I do at times express things bluntly but it doesn't mean I'm blunt on the inside. It's more that when whatever idea is projected through the filter of the personality via the not so accurate vehicle of language it inevitably presents as a caricature of itself. Usually people argue over things without even ever making sure they are arguing over the same matter because they understand the issue very differently.
But I suppose we still have to speak... ;D

 

[Reverie]

Another thought, and beyond the whole NF/INFJ/Ni thing - I think it's difficult for a lot of people to NOT reframe things later to make it sound like they were right about someone else, all along.

I think if you're keeping an eye on your thought processes it's easier to spot. I keep journals (when I remember to) to keep myself in check. I write them down and then review later if needed, however painfully terrible it may be sometimes to revisit my ramblings. ;D

 

[SilkRoad]

I think if you're keeping an eye on your thought processes it's easier to spot. I keep journals (when I remember to) to keep myself in check. I write them down and then review later if needed, however painfully terrible it may be sometimes to revisit my ramblings. ;D

Oh yeah, I used to be an obsessive journaler, though I don't any more. I wrote enormous amounts in my journal from about ages 14 to 27 or so. In a lot of ways it was just an outlet/a way to work things out, but I think it also helped make me both self-aware, and overly analytical/neurotic.

 

[Reverie]

Oh yeah, I used to be an obsessive journaler, though I don't any more. I wrote enormous amounts in my journal from about ages 14 to 27 or so. In a lot of ways it was just an outlet/a way to work things out, but I think it also helped make me both self-aware, and overly analytical/neurotic.

I think it's all well and good since we're here on these forums to gain deeper understanding and perspectives into our own and others' mind (as much as is possible) but for anyone who actually IS an INFJ I think the most fertile way to be is to not overanalyze. (EDIT: haha...contradicting myself. Keep a journal...don't analyze! ;D) Some things you just can reason yourself around, through, behind or between. There has to be an acceptance of certain things about ourselves that may get labelled whatever they are labelled (I feel because of misunderstanding, because if we were able to experience a different "head" it would most likely be one of those "Ohhhhh...ok....that's the most natural and normal way to perceive/ be ;D) I don't want to pick myself apart I want to bloom, if you know what I mean. I want to contribute and do my own dance. You'd think that's what everyone really wants, wouldn't you? If all this analyzing of our type promotes a kind of awareness/acceptance I'll gladly contribute because I feel right now that I want to but in my own life I just want to be myself and create things that express how things look to me and embrace the Ni-inniness ;D.

 

[Fidelia]

There are a lot of really great posts here.

I used to be unsure about Ni as I didn't see how I used it. Someone suggested that our aux and tert functions are much more easy to become aware of because our dominant function is so pervasive that we are often unaware of where it is at work.

Ni focuses on patterns and extrapolations, which is why the future is more interesting to a lot of Ni doms than present or past (except as they relate to the future). In the INFJ case, usually that area of focus is on human models of behaviour and dynamics, while I've found that the NT flavours of Ni focus more on business/invention/programming based areas of specialty. If Ni has an extensive data base of previous patterns to help extrapolate with, I think it is easier for Ni users to trust their hunches. Otherwise, it needs to keep proving the veracity of the theory using Fe and Ti to keep refining it.

Unfortunately for most INFJs, I think this means that even if something sometimes seems a little off, they need to be able to explain it before they will feel it is legitimate. Because their focus is people, that may mean that they tolerate poor behaviour until they can actually observe and articulate a pattern which they are confident is unlikely to change, or until something serious enough happens that they feel fair in making a judgement on it.

Ni seems kind of flexy to me and will look at a situation from a lot of points of view, which is an advantage in remaining understanding and open-minded, but it makes it difficult to know when something is a big enough deal to say something about.

I don't see Ni as something mystical either, but rather more as umlauu describes. Because we focus on a different aspect of interaction (dynamics and principles rather than stored facts and rules), some things just seem obvious that aren't to other people. I find this is particularly true when interacting with leadership of an organization. It just seems so obvious that something is going to turn out badly if a particular course of action continues to be pursued, but many people almost need to see the "blood on the knife" before they will really believe that is the case. I find it painful to be so sure and yet have no definitive way to prove it until the damage has been done.

It's interesting - I read a couple of threads that complained that Ni users rarely explain their POV enough for others to understand it and then act annoyed when people don't get them. I realized in the course of the discussion that often we don't think to explain certain things because it almost would feel condescending to do so. They are so much a part of the scenery that we take it for granted that other people see what we do. (It's almost like talking about something that requires colour recognition with a person who doesn't realize that they are colourblind and neither do we. We'd be happily to verbalize the criteria for recognizing red and where it may be found, but we assume other people see it just as clearly, so don't get their dismissal or mounting frustration).

I don't mean that we are so much more insightful than others (I was actually very surprised at how effectively my ESTJ was able to read people based on noticing small details, rather than looking at patterns and extrapolating like I did), but rather that our focus is something that allows us to notice some elements that the majority of the population doesn't. At the same time, I miss details that are both important and obvious, so I value having other people's perspective to help round out my perceptions.

I find I'm a lot more accurate at having hunches about other people before I get emotionally involved with them. After that, I find it harder to sort and separate all the information from each other and rely on a longer time period to arrive at the same kinds of conclusions. I don't think I can always predict what will happen, but I found during my years of busking that it was increasingly easy to recognize and trust gut instincts about when a person displayed subtle differences in the way they related which contributed to an uneasy, though unarticulatable negative feeling about them.

For what it's worth, I think that you are not ISFJ, Silkroad. You are interested in how people interact and you like to know the whys about it when things go wrong. You revisit the same issue until you feel you`ve resolved it in your own head and can tuck it away safely. You use the circumstances that you`ve come across to help see a pattern emerging (either in you or the other person). These all seem Ni-ishly INFJ to me.