[INFJ] INFJ Hate Thread

[redacted]

I think where I am having issues with your explanation is in how you claim to utilize Ni.

That is what Ne does, not what Ni does. INFJs are called the foreseers because we utilize Ni to predict what will happen with patterns, not comparing data to past patterns. It is Ne that takes new data and interprets it.

really? that's not my understanding of Ne and Ni at all. Ne seems to be more of an in the moment connection-making function, whereas Ni is a longer-term pattern interpreter.

extroverted perception focuses on the specific moment in time, introverted perception sees the present in terms of the past... sensation is concrete, intuition is abstract.

and how can Ni not interpret new data? where does the data come from then?

from Ni's perspective, new data is just a small piece in a long-term pattern. that's why we strive to take the "spin" off of new information -- so that we can piece it in with our web of connections.

@ the bolded part: we can predict what will happen because we see new situations in terms of the patterns we already know. Ne doesn't care as much about that -- it just tries to see the connections in the present.

 

[heart]

My experience with Ne is the more info I take in from the external world, the more active my imagination becomes. I get out of it what I give to it. Without active stimulation it will wind down and I get more Fi, more introspective. It is very humbling to realize how dependent my imagination is on outside stimulation. I need to be fed outside data to stimulate my Ne into energy. I am thinking the Ni person is not so dependent on this outside, fresh data...however they have to deal with Fe and needing connection to other people to get into better touch with their feelings in the same way so it is all a trade off?

 

[Kiddo]

really? that's not my understanding of Ne and Ni at all. Ne seems to be more of an in the moment connection-making function, whereas Ni is a longer-term pattern interpreter.

Well look at it from these descriptions.

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone's behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That's it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

and how can Ni not interpret new data? where does the data come from then?

Let me explain. Ni utilizes observations, experiences, and reason to predict whereas Ne interprets observations, experiences, and reason to discover or understand underlying patterns.

from Ni's perspective, new data is just a small piece in a long-term pattern. that's why we strive to take the "spin" off of new information -- so that we can piece it in with our web of connections.

There you go again. Piecing connections together. Interpreting the true meaning of people's behavior and body language. These are Ne.

 

[heart]

from Ni's perspective, new data is just a small piece in a long-term pattern. that's why we strive to take the "spin" off of new information -- so that we can piece it in with our web of connections.

My husband who is INFJ will come up with very distinct original ideas when trying to solve a problem, but he will get stuck on his original details and they don't match the real world situation. But if he shares his dilemma with me, I can brainstorm more extensive things with his idea and help him come up with a way to make it work. He cannot do this well, his imagination gets too tightly focused on his internal vision.

 

[redacted]

There you go again. Piecing connections together. Interpreting the true meaning of people's behavior and body language. These are Ne.

wrong. that's just N.

if you think of extroverted and introverted intuition as a spectrum, the more towards the introverted side you get, the more you view the present in terms of the past. the more extroverted you get, the less the past has anything to do with your connections.

my interpretation of people's behavior is almost entirely based on my past observations of how people work. i'm not just guessing (which is what pure Ne would do)...i'm comparing the data i see to my overall abstract understanding of human behavior. that's Ni.

you're saying Ni can't interpret people's behavior and body language? is that not a key trait of INFJs?

 

[Atomic Fiend]

It's the INFJ hate thread alright.

 

[wedekit]

wrong. that's just N.

if you think of extroverted and introverted intuition as a spectrum, the more towards the introverted side you get, the more you view the present in terms of the past. the more extroverted you get, the less the past has anything to do with your connections.

my interpretation of people's behavior is almost entirely based on my past observations of how people work. i'm not just guessing (which is what pure Ne would do)...i'm comparing the data i see to my overall abstract understanding of human behavior. that's Ni.

you're saying Ni can't interpret people's behavior and body language? is that not a key trait of INFJs?

Oh wow, a key trait of an INFJ that actually applies to you. Now we're getting somewhere, lol.

 

[Kiddo]

you're saying Ni can't interpret people's behavior and body language? is that not a key trait of INFJs?

There is only one description that suggests that.

INFJs readily grasp the hidden psychological stimuli behind the more observable dynamics of behavior and affect. Their amazing ability to deduce the inner workings of the mind, will and emotions of others gives INFJs their reputation as prophets and seers.

Of course that kind deduction is readily observable in the way I described INTJs in the INTJ Hater's thread. It's taking fairly limited information from dozens of unrelated discussions and making conclusions about the way their minds work from the observable patterns. The weird part is it is usually right. It is no way observing people's body language and tone and making deductions. In fact, I have never seen INFJs described as good at interpreting body language. That is "here and now" stuff and that is related to Ne.

 

[heart]

This is like INFJ survivior. Someone's gonna get voted off the island?

 

[Kiddo]

This is like INFJ survivior. Someone's gonna get voted off the island?

Of course not!

*to wedekit* Wanna form an alliance?

I'm insulted by the insinuation!

*to Silently Honest* You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

So rude!

 

[Atomic Fiend]

*to Silently Honest* You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

Sure Thing!

I go first!

 

[Kiddo]

Er...nevermind.

Anyways, it's your turn to go fishing in the shark and piranha infested waters. I prepped you boat.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Nice try, who in they're right minds gets on a boat with no life jackets.


Sheesh...

 

[redacted]

i think i'm done with this discussion. i know the functions, and i know i'm an INFJ. my Ne is weak, and my Ni is dominant. i have stronger Ti than any other INFJ i've interacted with, which is why i don't relate to a lot of you guys that much. but wedekit, of course we share many traits. i only point out traits that i don't share to prove that sometimes people make generalizations that don't apply to each individual.

 

[wedekit]

Of course that kind deduction is readily observable in the way I described INTJs in the INTJ Hater's thread. It's taking fairly limited information from dozens of unrelated discussions and making conclusions about the way their minds work from the observable patterns. The weird part is it is usually right. It is no way observing people's body language and tone and making deductions. In fact, I have never seen INFJs described as good at interpreting body language. That is "here and now" stuff and that is related to Ne.

I know that I can read people fairly easily, but I have never really pinpointed why I was able to do that. Here's how I think it happens based on what you said. Tell me if it sounds right to you:
I agree that my method has always been to try and get "inside their head". I don't pool all the data together in order to make connections and decide on an answer. I concentrate on coming up with the answer that I envision first and then see if the data connects properly afterwards. Usually it does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but could it be seen that Ne tries to solve problems from the beginning (data) to the end (answer) while Ni tries to solve problems from the end (their "vision") to the beginning (data)?

 

[Kiddo]

I know that I can read people fairly easily, but I have never really pinpointed why I was able to do that. Here's how I think it happens based on what you said. Tell me if it sounds right to you:
I agree that my method has always been to try and get "inside their head". I don't pool all the data together in order to make connections and decide on an answer. I concentrate on coming up with the answer that I envision first and then see if the data connects properly afterwards. Usually it does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but could it be seen that Ne tries to solve problems from the beginning (data) to the end (answer) while Ni tries to solve problems from the end (their "vision") to the beginning (data)?

Hm...that is an interesting way of thinking of it. Well said.

 

[Carebear]

There is only one description that suggests that.

Still, even if it's not suggested, I'm pretty sure INFJs pull from past experiences as well, just more subconsciously. dissonance's explanation does fit rather well with how my INFJ wife seems to be reasoning, but then again, it might be that's only when she's discussing things with me so it's heavily influenced by my Ne input (like heart talked about). Perhaps Ni is less about drawing from past experience and more a matter of applying insights gained from said experience. (If there is a difference.)

 

[redacted]

I concentrate on coming up with the answer that I envision first and then see if the data connects properly afterwards. Usually it does.

how do you envision it, though? you have to start off with something to get a vision. Ne would make a bunch of random guesses that would have to be analyzed by a judging function. Ni would connect the data with a long term framework, which would explain why the data is much more likely to connect properly when analyzed by a judging function. (and it also explains why Ni is so much slower than Ne).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but could it be seen that Ne tries to solve problems from the beginning (data) to the end (answer) while Ni tries to solve problems from the end (their "vision") to the beginning (data)?

yes. but you can't just jump to an answer without a framework guiding you. it's not like Ni just magically knows the answer.

 

[Kiddo]

Still, even if it's not suggested, I'm pretty sure INFJs pull from past experiences as well, just more subconsciously. dissonance's explanation does fit rather well with how my INFJ wife seems to be reasoning, but then again, it might be that's only when she's discussing things with me so it's heavily influenced by my Ne input (like heart talked about). Perhaps Ni is less about drawing from past experience and more a matter of applying insights gained from said experience. (If there is a difference.)

That's it! Because another consistent thing I notice about INFJs is we don't necessarily remember the experience that lead to our insight, just the actual insight. Like when I read a book, I don't really remember so much what I read, but rather just the point it was trying to get across.

yes. but you can't just jump to an answer without a framework guiding you. it's not like Ni just magically knows the answer.

Actually that is kindof how it is. The Ni's vison comes from insights, not data. We may not even remember where the original insights came from.

 

[redacted]

think about Ne/Ni as an analogy of Se to Si. Se sees the concrete of the present. Si sees the present in terms of the concrete of the past.

therefore Ne sees the abstract of the present. Ni sees the present in terms of the abstract of the past.