[Fe] Any INFJs who think Fe is "fake"?

[sulfit]

If you are intuitive subtype of INFJ and value Ni and Ti more, then you might feel like Fe is fake. See description of Ni-IEI here for intuitive subtype: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/14-Type-and-subtype-descriptions-Meged-Ovcharov The Fe-subtype has less qualms about it.

 

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My take on "unhealthy" Fi would be: insistence on "honestly" vomiting your emotions everywhere regardless of how it makes others feel; and "unhealthy" Fe would be: manipulating left right and centre, and sucking up. But that may be oversimplifying. It just seems to me more that these people are using "unhealthy Fi" than any kind of Fe.
[\QUOTE].

If I may comment, not an INFJ, no offense intended, and only hope my comments may contain something of value..

I would agree that your friends are likely not INFJs..the things you describe are more Fi in nature..

I disgaree that openly sharing negative emotions in a close friendship is "unhealthy". (However, note that to me the connotation of "unhealthy" strikes a very negative chord of permenance or brokenness-thus perhaps a better Fi friendly term is depressed or immature or socially innapproriate.)

wrt emotional sharing, ENFPs totally rant about our frustrations. We share, we cross affirm, then we try and problem solve for one another. This can degenerate into "counter productive bitch sessions" if we get stuck in this rut however. Action-Te style is the solution. Not sure what an INFP would need to do though...

I've seen her in a group being reasonably civil to others, and then when she turns to me her shoulders slump and she looks grim, hostile and depressed. I've asked her about this (because it fills me with dread.) She says something like "well, you know what I'm going through, so if I act cheerful with you, it's totally fake." .

This seems indicative of her trust in exposing these emotions to you, not understanding you dont deal well with this level of emotional intensity. I used to do this to ENTP and INFJ friends but eventually, via reading threads such as these, realized how stressful this impacts those on the Ti-Fe side of the fence. I became much more emotionally walled off from them at this point, in an effort not to induce stress in them-but at the cost of depth of friendship in some situations.

We learn this the hard way by losing friends however.

 

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Going back to that thing I said about it being where your focus lies...I would think that Fe can also be "expressed" by REFRAINING from doing or saying things that are going to stress people out, hurt their feelings, etc. Being tactful and thoughtful, sometimes by keeping your mouth shut. I certainly think that's why I do some of the time (not all the time...I am certainly not immune from saying things that would hurt people's feelings, usually when my own feelings are hurt.)

But what I'm saying is Fe could be expressed by silence/tactful withdrawing. And Fi could be expressed by being vocal about one's inner feelings.

Does that make sense? Am I misunderstanding the functions or is this a reasonable interpretation?
[\QUOTE].

I think your understanding is quite right-very often Fi drives one internally to speak up. Typically for an ENFP it is fighting for a cause, aka, Te in the service of Fi, but be highly emotive. on the negative side, A less developed Fi in an enfp can result in the emo vomit response.

I kind of agree with this. But further to what I've said above - surely part of human interaction is learning what works and what doesn't. If ranting 24/7 about your own negative feelings puts other people off, you may want to learn from that and tone it down a bit. Etc. So, coming back to what I said - couldn't Fe sometimes be expressed by withdrawing tactfully or by keeping your feelings to yourself? Because what often happens to me (Ni/Fe, I think) is that in a split second I picture myself saying something to someone, but based on the situation or what I know of them I know it can be hurtful, so also in that split second I picture their hurt reaction, and withdraw what my gut reaction was to say - and say something else more tactful. Or just keep my mouth shut. And I believe that is Fe.
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do you find this sometimes keeps you from offerring candid advice? (no judgement intended )

 

[SilkRoad]

I disgaree that openly sharing negative emotions in a close friendship is "unhealthy".

Oh, I hope I haven't given the impression that I think it's always a bad thing to share negative emotions. I certainly share mine with my close friends (in moderate/smallish doses - sometimes more if I need it and I'm around friends who can be supportive of it - and if I think I won't be judged over it.) I completely believe that in a true/close friendship you should be able to share those emotions and to help each other work through difficult times. I try to do that with close and close-ish friends and it has frequently been reciprocal.

What I object to is constantly using the other person as a sounding board, or free therapy, or your...emotional vomit bucket. Particularly when it's an indication that you have issues and problems that you are not attempting to deal with and resolve yourself (even when I am showing willingness to support and encourage you in making those changes), and you are just complaining and venting to me about them, and not making any effort at forward progress. (You also brought out that there should ultimately be an element of problem-solving.)

In all honesty, I think people who consistently do this (and I'm talking for many many months or years at a time...ie. it's a consistent thing, not just temporary because they're going through a hard time and need a hearing ear) are being selfish users. It usually involves a sucking of the other person's energy, too. I have had it with more than one person in my life, though the probable young INFP I've talked about is the most extreme case and it is probably due to depression and other serious emotional issues (which is why I encouraged her to seek therapy).

I think I'm fairly resilient/supportive of this sort of thing, up to a point; I certainly tried very hard with this girl. But there comes a point when it becomes too difficult, and I don't think that's necessarily dependent on her being INFP and me being INFJ, etc. I mean, I do pick up people's feelings at least to a certain extent and that makes it hard. But I don't think relentless negativity is something that a "friend" should be required to put up with. It can become enabling, too. I start to get frustrated, upset and possibly angry when this sort of pattern has gone on for very extended periods of time and it's obvious that the person hasn't tried to improve matters for themselves, is playing the victim, and only feels better when they've bombarded you with negativity and have left you feeling like you've been run over by a truck. I've had conversations with her where with every single positive and encouraging thing I have tried to say (with an eye to realism and that she is going through a hard time), she contradicts it and turns it into something negative. Literally EVERY SINGLE THING. It would be funny if these conversations didn't ultimately make me want to kill myself.

I'm sorry for the rant, I just feel strongly about this.

do you find this sometimes keeps you from offerring candid advice? (no judgement intended )

Hmm, interesting question. I guess sometimes it does. Maybe even often. It's so dependent on circumstances and my relationship with the person, though. Have they asked me for advice? If we are close and tend to be very open with each other, and perhaps I've seen the person make the same mistake over and over (I'm talking like mistakes that are so obvious that they totally acknowledge them themselves), I might get pretty candid and even blunt, but I would probably qualify it with "I hope this doesn't sound hurtful, but..." or "I have to be honest, even if it sounds harsh..." And I do try to be diplomatic. I don't want to be needlessly hurtful, for sure. If I start skipping that sort of step I'm probably intensely frustrated or upset myself or frankly, feeling a bit mean partly because I feel frustrated. Sometimes I may conclude there's no point in (ahem) lecturing. I mean, if someone is right in the middle of a situation why should I do the whole "I told you so" thing? However, while I can be supportive up to a point with the difficulties they then go through, I will eventually suffer from compassion fatigue if they play the victim or constantly generate such situations but then wonder why they have such "bad luck", etc. Then I might end up just nodding along, but sort of backing away slowly from the situation, or allowing more distance between us.

If it's someone I'm not particularly close to and there's no indication they want advice I would probably refrain from commenting. People have asked me for advice quite often in my life, which is nice...sometimes even unexpected...I try to be diplomatic.

I hope that kind of answers your question...

Thank you for the INFP/ENFP Fi insights; those make a lot of sense to me.


EDIT: [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] rereading this and what you said above...I mean, am I wrong? I find it selfish when people unload on me that consistently/interminably and to that extent.

Is it selfish? Or am I just misunderstanding the workings of Fi and I really am worse at taking the emotional intensity of others than I thought I was.

 

[OrangeAppled]

If you're INFJ and you think Fe/trying not to make others feeling uncomfortable with your emotional states is "fake" - does that mean you're not really INFJ?

I guarantee you that is not why FPs will call FJs fake. People who openly express every little emotion make me uncomfortable. I'm far more contained than any FJ I know.... I get dumped on by friends far more than I am listened to or even attempt to express myself.

I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about, and not constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not.

This is called being polite & having emotional maturity & has little to do with Fe/Fi.

I ask because I know a couple of people who say they identify with the INFJ type, but I'm pretty sure they're respectively INFP and xNFP (either withdrawn ENFP, or outgoing INFP.) There are other indicators that I would think indicate they're Fi users rather than Fe, but this is a big one. They have both used the words "fake" in reference simply to being nice to people they aren't crazy about, and restraining emotional intensity in certain situations.

Yes, I've heard FJs say such things. They seem more aware of when others are fake than when they themselves have adjusted their own appearance/expression in a less than genuine way.

One of the reasons why this can very much be Fe behavior is that Fe is "creative" also, meaning it doesn't just adapt to existing values of others. It also asserts value, and seeks to influence others to adopt the same valuation (as its far more focused on consensus for validation than Fi). So a Fe type who feels that their negative feeling is important & needs to feel validated by others could definitely be very vocal about it, even if it's not "appropriate".

Is it possible to be an Fe user and still think that non-total-emotional-disclosure is "fake"?

Well, Fi types don't necessarily think that way either. It's possible for any type to think that because it's not directly about Fi/Fe.

Just to add: Fi being "introverted" doesn't necessarily mean that it's less visible, does it?

Doesn't it mean more that Fi is concentrated on your interior/core self, while Fe is more concentrated on the exterior/others? I don't think that *necessarily* means that Fi would mean the emotions are generally less visible. It's more to do with focus than expression. (?)

Feelings are not emotions. Visible emotions has less to do with type than people think. Feeling types are only associated more with emotions because emotions have a degree of "valuation" attached to them, so they are used as signals to communicate & to interpret. But when it comes to venting emotionally, well no type has a monopoly on that. T types are stereotypically known for angry rants, for example.

When it comes to an ExFP expressing emotions openly, that can have more to do with them being extroverts than using Fi. They need to interact, to talk while they sort thoughts, etc.

And yes, Fi feelings, as in valuations, are less visible & more often expressed indirectly (ie. their spirituality, their art, their life style, etc). It's written right into the description of it. Fi is NOT simply about a focus on yourself. It's focusing on an inner vision of perfection in regards to human needs & using it to guide your valuations - valuations which can very much be about other people, the community, appropriate behavior, etc. The self is simply a prototype for "human". So if the Fi-dom is focused on trying to "determine what is right in regards to people & relationships, how to make life beautiful & well-balanced" (Van der Hoop), then it would not be a trademark of theirs to indulge in emotional outbursts.

They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.

....Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it.

The last part is indicating the tendency of the Fi-dom to not only be stingy in their own expression, but to be so contained they seem disinterested in others.

Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth.
....
To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...

But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type herself. It may express itself in a secret religiosity anxiously shielded from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms...

 

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Thank you for the INFP/ENFP Fi insights; those make a lot of sense to me.


EDIT: [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] rereading this and what you said above...I mean, am I wrong? I find it selfish when people unload on me that consistently/interminably and to that extent.

Is it selfish? Or am I just misunderstanding the workings of Fi and I really am worse at taking the emotional intensity of others than I thought I was.

Oh, no, please forgive if I came across as judgemental in anyway-your friend sounds very trying and you should not have to deal with that sort of longterm hurt in another who isnt trying to help themselves in someway. Based upon OAs post, you may consider she is an ENFP? Depressed enfps can be extremely introverted but very whiny and sullen.

OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?

 

[SilkRoad]

Oh, no, please forgive if I came across as judgemental in anyway-your friend sounds very trying and you should not have to deal with that sort of longterm hurt in another who isnt trying to help themselves in someway. Based upon OAs post, you may consider she is an ENFP? Depressed enfps can be extremely introverted but very whiny and sullen.

OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?

No, you didn't come across as judgmental. It has been trying, but admittedly I think things are improving a bit for her. She is young (well, almost 19) so things may improve on that basis as well.

I would have pictured her as INFP because she comes across very introverted, but she often says things like that she doesn't enjoy either being alone or being with other people. She is also extremely conflicted over whether she wants friends or wants to be self-reliant. I had fewer emotional difficulties at that age than she does, but I experienced some of those conflicts too. I think overall it all has more to do with her general emotional state than being type related. It's just that I have thought that the way her difficult emotions come across is not very Fe. (Although some very interesting points have been raised in this thread).

With the other friend, I think it is very likely that she is an introverted ENFP. She is kind of withdrawn, but I think mainly because a) her health isn't great, and b) she's had her feelings hurt by many people for many different reasons and is wary. But there are so many aspects to her behaviour which come across very ENFP (very impulsive; often vocalizing what is true to her in the moment, but it can change or seem to change quite quickly; very passionate, etc.).

 

[SilkRoad]

Yes, I've heard FJs say such things. They seem more aware of when others are fake than when they themselves have adjusted their own appearance/expression in a less than genuine way.

If this is true, however, wouldn't it seem to indicate that my friends are not using Fe/are not FJs? They are basically saying that if THEY THEMSELVES (not others) behave in a certain way (being polite/civil to people they don't like, or putting on a more cheerful front although they have difficult feelings inside), this is "fake". They're not making that judgment about others (not most of the time anyway).

Can I ask what you would describe as an example of "being fake" or "adjusting your appearance/expression in a less than genuine way", from your INFP perspective?

I haven't been accusing these people of being "fake", btw. If anything, I probably feel that they are not being "fake" enough.

Interestingly, my young friend tends to make judgments about other people, not that they're being "fake" (as in, putting a brave face on difficult emotions), but that they simply don't have problems and difficulties in their own lives, or not much. She has often said things like that. That it's obvious that so-and-so has a pretty easy life and doesn't have major problems causing really painful emotions. I have tried to point out that some people are going through horrendous things emotionally, but they may choose to not show a great deal of it. I'm not sure she believes me. This could however be mainly self-centeredness caused by depression.

She certainly is deeply concerned with authenticity and identity, as is the other friend I've mentioned. Based on what you've said as well I would think this is more Fi. I think INFJs are concerned with authenticity, but less so; because of the Fe it's more about common ground and relating to others. (Or...is this more of an enneagram question?)

I suppose you can see where my preferences lie partly by the fact that I would hate for someone to call me "fake", but I would hate it even more if I were called "selfish".

Incidentally, I don't think FJs/Fe dom or aux have a monopoly on pointing the fingers at others while ignoring the same behaviour in themselves. I think this can occur in all types. I have seen it suggested quite often on this forum that this is especially or mainly or ONLY the case with FJs and it kind of bothers me. It is my impression certainly that many INFJs (myself and those I've known) are pretty big into self-scrutiny and aware of their own failings - although admittedly they take criticism more readily from themselves than from others. And yes, we can also be self-righteous and lecture.

Every person of every type has got their blind spots and may sometimes indulge in finger-pointing. Self-awareness or lack of it is not type-specific.

Maybe everyone of every type is capable of a stunning lack of self-awareness, but Fe dom/aux is a bit more likely to point the finger at others over similar things. But I wouldn't say this is massively disproportionately the case. I don't know.

The last part is indicating the tendency of the Fi-dom to not only be stingy in their own expression, but to be so contained they seem disinterested in others.

Yes, I think I have seen that on occasion.

My personal impression is that INFPs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as very self-contained/a bit disinterested as you describe. INFJs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as a bit more outgoing and brisk and cheerful, but people may assume that they don't have many feelings of their own (not so much that they are disinterested in others.)

 

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[...]
I've had conversations with her where with every single positive and encouraging thing I have tried to say (with an eye to realism and that she is going through a hard time), she contradicts it and turns it into something negative. Literally EVERY SINGLE THING. It would be funny if these conversations didn't ultimately make me want to kill myself. bout this.

You're right about her 'playing victim'. I've known people like this, and at first I tried very hard to be supportive. But then it became clear to me that she didn't really want help. She was just trying to enforce her victim status so that she could not be blamed for the bad things happening in her life. I think to admit that you messed up takes courage, and not everyone has the mental strength to own up to it. Your friend seems to be doing this, and I honestly don't think there's a way to help her at this point >_<

This link is also interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

 

[SilkRoad]

You're right about her 'playing victim'. I've known people like this, and at first I tried very hard to be supportive. But then it became clear to me that she didn't really want help. She was just trying to enforce her victim status so that she could not be blamed for the bad things happening in her life. I think to admit that you messed up takes courage, and not everyone has the mental strength to own up to it. Your friend seems to be doing this, and I honestly don't think there's a way to help her at this point >_<

This link is also interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Ooh, the "drama triangle" looks fascinating. Will look more closely when I have a minute.

I think the girl I have described is on a bit of a knife edge. She is young. She has more time to turn things around for herself. I do feel for her, though I probably sound unsympathetic here. It has been so draining and dramatic that I am definitely suffering from compassion fatigue (and just fatigue...) and can't do a lot more besides try to encourage her to get help. It sucks as well that she lives at home but not only has a pretty dysfunctional family but has little support from them. (Her mom also seems to be seriously depressed.) She did bravely go to the doctor and was referred to a therapist - after I hassled her a lot to go to the doctor, but it was definitely brave of her to do it. But now I do not know if she's going to carry on with therapy. Which is a shame especially as it is free in this country if you need it... And I have made it very clear I cannot be her therapist. Support and talking is one thing. Throwing all your emotional burdens on someone not qualified to take them on, that's another thing.

 

[OrangeAppled]

OA-I noted you said INFPs dont express emo, but does sullen bitterness count? This is something I note in some INFPs I have worked around...even though they dont talk about or express unhappiness, they still seem to be expressing it nonverbally-almost being emo via the lack of interaction with others-the gaps and stony silences speak for themselves?

Well, I didn't say IFPs don't ever express any emotion.

1) Yes, it seems more likely to me that IFPs express emotions subtly & indirectly.

2) People project a lot onto quiet people, and it's something I've heard INFPs complain of before (not just me). I know it's been a pattern in my life to have "aloof, unfriendly, and/or grouchy" stuck on me when I am just reserved and inexpressive at times because that is natural for me. The gaps & stony silences are me thinking deeply about stuff, not sending a message to other people about how I feel. Lack of interaction is a preference for me because I am introverted, not because I am punishing people out of bitterness.

If this is true, however, wouldn't it seem to indicate that my friends are not using Fe/are not FJs? They are basically saying that if THEY THEMSELVES (not others) behave in a certain way (being polite/civil to people they don't like, or putting on a more cheerful front although they have difficult feelings inside), this is "fake". They're not making that judgment about others (not most of the time anyway).

I don't think this is a good way to type people for their MBTI/Jungian type. If that's your objective, then I'd consider them as whole people - their entire intangible personality & the mindset it suggests.

If overall, even in positive & emotionally mature moments, this person turns their feeling judgments inward ("it's wrong/right for me to do X") and not outward ("people shouldn't do X because it's wrong"), then there's a sign they may be an FP.
Consider the premise for their valuations - is something good/bad because of some moral principle they've derived by considering the basic needs of humans, or is the moral principle derived by considering visible effects on society &/or because their trusted group/authority says so? The former is Fi thinking - an inner ideal is the basis. The latter is Fe - using real world criteria. Look for whole patterns in their thinking, not isolated moments where they give one opinion. Beware of Ti & Te sneaking in, as well as perceptions.

Can I ask what you would describe as an example of "being fake" or "adjusting your appearance/expression in a less than genuine way", from your INFP perspective?

Sure. Agreeing with someone to their face, enthusiastically even, then later stating an opposite opinion when in different company. In the moment, it is obvious the person is not truthful because they are over-compensating with their face, voice, phasing, etc. Yet, they'll deny they do not truly feel that way in the moment if called out on it. I truly believe they feel that way in the moment, that they get caught up in it, and it's not until they are removed from that situation that they even realize their individual feeling again.

It is clear the agreeing was done to create a bond & promote consensus, etc, which must be felt as more valuable than their own feeling in order to abandon their own so readily. However, it still amounted to deception because it was not their true feeling on the matter once all is said & done. Such people allow their true feeling to be eclipsed by the desire of the moment to be pleasing. No one is saying it's better to be a disruptive dissenter, but to outright obscure your real feeling to prevent making waves is hardly admirable. That's when it looks like manipulation or brainless people-pleasing. You wonder, "What does this person really think? Or can they even think for themselves?". It seems they adopt whatever opinion will make them most loved & admired.

It is also very selfish, because the motive is to prevent making waves, but it's according to their own measure of what peace even is, which often amounts to their own comfort & attractiveness. But they will never admit this, because they always see it as "the group's needs". They are always making a "sacrifice". They're just "too perfect" & "too loving"....

I notice such people resent when others aren't easily persuaded also, when they don't readily go along with the crowd. Integrity to them means loyalty to their chosen group.

In a weird way, this also leads to the previous scenario I gave - expressing emotions in an escalating manner until they receive validation. When people don't validate them, then they get mad and/or guilt-trip. It's all a manipulation to create a consensus of feeling, either by abandoning their own feeling or pushing their feeling on others.

Interestingly, my young friend tends to make judgments about other people, not that they're being "fake" (as in, putting a brave face on difficult emotions), but that they simply don't have problems and difficulties in their own lives, or not much. She has often said things like that. That it's obvious that so-and-so has a pretty easy life and doesn't have major problems causing really painful emotions. I have tried to point out that some people are going through horrendous things emotionally, but they may choose to not show a great deal of it. I'm not sure she believes me. This could however be mainly self-centeredness caused by depression.

She certainly is deeply concerned with authenticity and identity, as is the other friend I've mentioned. Based on what you've said as well I would think this is more Fi. I think INFJs are concerned with authenticity, but less so; because of the Fe it's more about common ground and relating to others. (Or...is this more of an enneagram question?)

This just sounds like enneagram 4 - it screams it actually - and INFPs don't have a monopoly on being 4s. I've seen 2s disintegrating to 4s act this way as well though, in addition to 3s with heavy 4 wings.

I actually think INFJ 4s are more likely to mistype as INFPs than vice versa. This is because average to unhealthy 4s often have problems with routine & structure, they define themselves by their moods (which people will confuse with F-doms), they are preoccupied with identity & uniqueness, etc. Fi-dom 9s don't have a lot of those issues.

I suppose you can see where my preferences lie partly by the fact that I would hate for someone to call me "fake", but I would hate it even more if I were called "selfish".

Well, I'd argue that "fake" is "selfish"; it's more often a means to an end which suits the person employing it than anything (as I illustrated above).

I wouldn't want to be called either, equally.

Incidentally, I don't think FJs/Fe dom or aux have a monopoly on pointing the fingers at others while ignoring the same behaviour in themselves. I think this can occur in all types. I have seen it suggested quite often on this forum that this is especially or mainly or ONLY the case with FJs and it kind of bothers me.

Of course FJs don't have a monopoly on such things, but in regards to theory, this specific style of self-obliviousness is explicitly described for Fe. Another kind of disconnection with the self is alluded to for Pi also (seeing their perceptions as some kind of objective reality). It seems Ji is the most self-aware, for obvious reasons; on the other hand, Ji types can be the mos oblivious to others also. Even these aspects are illustrative of the mindset, not definitive. The way Jung describes this aspect for Fe is to show the dominant influence of "the object" on them, to the point where "the subject" is repressed.

The problem with using these categories to describe real-life behavior is that there are far too many variables involved to pin it on Fe or Fi. To type someone based on behavior such as this becomes extremely faulty for that reason also. It's one thing to note that many previously typed FPs exhibit the same patterns in behavior, and another to type someone as an FP who fits one piece of the pattern. What happens is, you begin to define types by these behavioral patterns, instead of seeing the patterns as merely illustrative. Then, people even begin to warp the actual definitions of types because they know so-&-so who is supposedly XXXX type & she displays a certain behavior, and now they use that behavior to type others as XXXX, even though that behavior is not any part of a definition for the type and may even contradict it.

My personal impression is that INFPs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as very self-contained/a bit disinterested as you describe. INFJs in good emotional shape are more likely to come across as a bit more outgoing and brisk and cheerful, but people may assume that they don't have many feelings of their own (not so much that they are disinterested in others.)

I would say that is an average Fi-dom. An INFP in good emotional shape would be more expressive of positive emotions & feelings, IMO.

Since enneagram has been mentioned - yeah, I think that comes into play more with emotions than Jungian type. It also seems less faulty to use this info to determine enneagram type for that reason, although I'd still focus on the person as a whole.

 

[sculpting]

Hi there!
OK, I'm not an INFJ, and I'm certainly not an expert in how the blessed cognitive functions work, but I'm offer my opinion anyway, because that's how I roll.

A random quick note, if a given person of any type somehow committed an "epic fail" with regard to implementing one of their "big 4" (primary, secondary, tertiary, and inferior) cognitive functions, does that make them a "fake" ABCD, WXYZ, ENTJ, ISFP, etc?

Also, If I'm not wearing a plaid blazer and selling a shitty used car to a penniless old lady am I fake ESTP?



I think that there is a great amount of misunderstanding about how people FEEL and how they ACT in many common circumstances/occurrences.
Of the many things I'm a big believer in, three of the most important to me are HONESTY, SINCERITY, and CONSISTENCY.
NOW - Let's put these virtues in realistic CONTEXT.
There are a myriad of different social interactions that we all must engage in throughout our lives, in fact each and every day.
Thus, there are different levels of "intimacy" or "disclosure" that the people we interact with are appropriately entitled to.

Please take the following list of generic "people types" into consideration to humor me:
[PEOPLE TYPES]
(1) Your Best Friend
(2) Someone You've Only Recently Met, A "New Friend"
(3) Your Boss
(4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store
(5) A Co-Worker (Not a FRIEND, Just a Person Who Works at the Same Place as You)

Now then, let's take the two specific examples you listed above:

Let's Call This "Example 1" - it's basically "insincerity" right?


Let's Call This "Example 2" - it's essentially "full-on, open emotional disclosure" (F.O.E.D.) right?


Now then, let's take my list and add columns for Examples 1 and 2, and ask ourselves the following:

"When dealing with the people in this list, is it appropriate and/or prudent at any given time to either be "insincere" with them, or to not "fully disclose my emotions/feelings toward them?"

I'm filling in the grid with "Yes" or "No" in each cell.
I'll offer explanations after...

[PEOPLE TYPES]....................[EX. 1 - "Insincerity"]...................[EX. 2 - "F.O.E.D."]......[MY EXPLANATIONS]
(1) Your Best Friend.........................[NO].......................................[NO].....................[Your best friend always
..................................................................................................................................deserves
..................................................................................................................................sincerity
................................................................................................................................and full disclosure of what's
..................................................................................................................................going on in your life, that's
..................................................................................................................................why they are your best
...................................................................................................................................friend. They TRUST, LOVE,
...................................................................................................................................and
..................................................................................................................................ACCEPT you.]

(2) Someone You've Only
Recently Met, A "New Friend"...........[NO].......................................[YES]....................[EX 1] You have no reason to be insincere with someone you've just met. How do you expect them to know you, and like you for who you are, if you are insincere with them? Just don't be a fool and trust them like they are your best friend. You have no idea what they are about, so use some common sense. [EX 2] Is fully disclosing your emotional state/feelings the time/etc. really warranted at this point? How will it add
value to interaction with them? Does it have potential to make them feel awkward/hurt their feelings/make them unecessarily angry/etc.? Is it not more appropriate to get to know them better before "opening the floodgates?"]

(3) Your Boss..................................[YES]......................................[YES].....................[EX 1] If your boss is an asshole, and you
tell them to their face, are you prepared to support yourself and your family without any income? [EX 2] Your boss is your boss. They are not your psychologist, confidant, or guardian angel. They are employing you to help them make money. What benefit does F.O.E.D. contribute to your employment relationship with your boss?

(4) A Clerk at the Grocery Store.......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] Does the kid really need to know
that the 17 facial piercings they have freak you out? Is that necessary? [EX 2] How will F.O.E.D. benefit the two minutes it takes to pay for your groceries? Will it make your life better? Will make the clerk's life better? Will it end world hunger? No, it will not.]

(5) A Co-Worker (NOT a Friend).......[YES]......................................[YES]......................[EX 1] You have to work with this person,
in their proximity, on regular basis. Is it necessary to get into conversations with them that are not work related? - and that are likely to cause conflict? No. If they are being offensive or rude or unprofessional, then talk to them. But - if they are simply more "cheerful" or "glum" than you, or have a demeanor of some other kind that's simply "different" can't you just "live and let live?" [EX 2] You'd better not give them F.O.E.D. How do you know they won't use that information against you, to try to get you fired, or to discredit you in the eyes of your supervisor, or simply to be a mean fucktard? You don't. They could be a fucking sociopath. Be smart.]

SO! What's my point?

It's this:

(1) I don't think that people who feel they have to display F.O.E.D. in all ways to all people in their lives are "GENUINE" or "SINCERE." They could also be thought of as "IMPOLITE" or "RUDE" or "DEVOID of SOCIAL COMMON SENSE" or "IGNORANT."

(2) I don't think that people who are "INSINCERE" are disingenuine at all if they are being samrt and protectintg themselves, their well being, or their family's well being. Let's face it, there are going to be people in this life that we DON'T LIKE and HAVE TO DEAL WITH, or maybe even HAVE TO BE NICE TO. Does this mean that you're a fake, sleazy, backstabbing fucktard because you aren't wearing your feelings on your sleeve? Hell no. You might actually be "SMART" or "CIVILIZED" or BOTH.



Sounds to me like they might just have poor social skills, or a nasty attitude, or both.
I'm not saying any of that makes them bad people, or that none of it is warranted in their cases, I'm just calling it how I see it via your description.



To the extent that their "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" makes them rude or unprofessional, they should consider shutting their mouths and adjusting their attitudes/behaviors. Just because someone (regardless of their MBTI type) has "emotional negativity" or "dark intensity" doesn't mean that they are entitled to emotionally vomit on everyone else in this world, or to be rude, mean, bitchy, shitty, unprofessional, or rude. Unless you want to live ina cave by yourself and not ever have any contact, however simple it may be, with other human beings, it is necessary to learn how to be socially competent, and to have manners, and respect for other people.

Now, if either of these people are in a huge fucking state of depression and it is affecting their ability to live a normal, productive life, then I hope they are seeking help, but I must be the bearer of bad news that not everyone they encounter will care. Some people flat out don't give a shit if you are going through a rough time, and your life may be alot easier if you use some social common sense in dealing with them, rather than exposing yourself to some asshole that you don't have the energy or desire to deal with. It's just as much a factor of self-preservation as it is civility.



In my opinion, NO.
That sounds like "bullshit" to me actually.



+1



This sounds like an example of interaction between FRIENDS or FAMILY. In that case I agree with you, get it off your chest, in the end everybody has to know where everbody else stands/how they feel about things; even if they don't like it. Then, once all the cards are on the table, everyone has to figure out how they are going to live in peace considering the social dynamics of what's going on. You'd be surprised. Some of my (extended) family members who at one point really drove me up the fucking wall, and I let them know it, and honestly I also "let them have it" a few times, have revealed a side of themselves at a later date that was unbelievably kind and altruistic.

BUT - again, I'm going back to the example of being professional, if you're unhappy, do your BOSS or your CO-WORKERS need to know about it? I'm not talking about being "fake happy," I'm simply talking about "doing your job." I think it's totally fine to not wear your emotions on your sleeve yet still retain being genuine and sincere, it's all about discretion, there's a time and a place for everything.



YES!



OMG, I love "The Splenda Effect" - that is SO funny, yet damn accurate.



+1,000!

Looking forward to thoughts, comments, opinions, recipes, and even haikus...



-Alex

Halla, I dont have time to quote little bits, but I wanted to let you know how much I apprecaite you writing this out.

In myself and in the comments I see from other enfps, we tend to be way to open and have a harder time learning the social ropes-we tend to treat everyone at the friends/family level rather than having layers. The entps here and some infjs have helped me understand this layering and why it is impotant much better, but it was very awesome to see it written so clearly from your perspective. This level of clear direction on Fe can be SO useful!! I'll think up a thank you haiku!!!

 

[Halla74]

Halla, I dont have time to quote little bits, but I wanted to let you know how much I apprecaite you writing this out.

Awww, thanks!

In myself and in the comments I see from other enfps, we tend to be way to open and have a harder time learning the social ropes-we tend to treat everyone at the friends/family level rather than having layers. The entps here and some infjs have helped me understand this layering and why it is impotant much better, but it was very awesome to see it written so clearly from your perspective. This level of clear direction on Fe can be SO useful!!

I'm very glad it is useful to you.
I have friends who are "Fi" users, and I've seen this phenomena be a problem for them.
The above is actually one of my "5 minute pep talks" but it's never been stated in terms of "how to use "Fe" so it's not fake, and why" - it's always just been a "OK, you're having a hard time with PEOPLE right now, let's chat about how to handle them so you preserve yourself and don't get more hassles."

I'll think up a thank you haiku!!!

AWESOME!!!
5-7-5, keep the dream alive!



-Alex

 

[SilkRoad]

I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

"INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

"Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Sorry to start another thread with "Fe" and "fake" in the title, but I've been wondering about this.

If you're INFJ and you think Fe/trying not to make others feeling uncomfortable with your emotional states is "fake" - does that mean you're not really INFJ?

I don't mean things like being smarmy and sucking up to someone you secretly despise; or overly-fawning customer service, or anything like that. I'm talking more about civility to those you're not crazy about, and not constantly showing your emotional states to everyone regardless of whether the other person is capable of taking them on or not.

I ask because I know a couple of people who say they identify with the INFJ type, but I'm pretty sure they're respectively INFP and xNFP (either withdrawn ENFP, or outgoing INFP.) There are other indicators that I would think indicate they're Fi users rather than Fe, but this is a big one. They have both used the words "fake" in reference simply to being nice to people they aren't crazy about, and restraining emotional intensity in certain situations.

For example: I say "A lot of people find it difficult to be around emotional negativity and dark intensity a lot, so I find that being like that most or all of the time tends to push people away." INFP: "Oh, so I should just be completely fake then?" (Admittedly, regardless of type, neither of them are particularly stable - they would even say that themselves.)

Is it possible to be an Fe user and still think that non-total-emotional-disclosure is "fake"?

I suppose it depends on your perspective, and what you find fake about it.

I'd like to add more to that, but I need to think about it a bit more first.

 

[Samvega]

I'm not reading this all, my attention span is too short at the moment. I will say this because I think it adds to the topic, a secondary, tertiary or inferior function isn't going to manifest the same way a dominant function would. They are all tweaked in some way by their position. I HATE, in fact have a total loathing for my Fe, the older I get the less logical I can be, I feel everything, things I don't want to feel, it's a burden and hinders what's in my own best interest at times. While my Fe has Ne/Ti standing guard in front of it my Fe is also metaphorically old enough to not need mom and dad (Ne/Ti) to protect it and want's nothing more than to stand by itself and feel safe (doesn't actually happen but wishful thinking is nice).

So in short no, I don't think Fe is fake, in an ENTP for example it's a balanced Fe this is also the case with a mature INFJ because in both cases there is Ti to balance it out.

I will add that I have never felt safe with Fi, those with it seem to think they're empathic and have this great capacity for understanding people and so on and while they may in their own right when it all comes down to it they will cause those with Fe to crawl into their shell. At least this has been the only experience I have ever had.

 

[crack]

I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

"INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

"Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.

What does that even mean? "By way of their Fe"?

 

[entropie]

I came across this quote on the Personality Junkie website description of INFJ (which is generally good, I think):

"INFJs are constantly championing authenticity, since authentic expression by way of their Fe is their most natural mode of operation."

"Authentic expression by way of their Fe"...interesting...that's certainly not how Fe (in any type) is perceived/described a lot of the time.

What does that even mean? "By way of their Fe"?

Guess it means: putting up a nice face for everyone and having an ear for all problems, disregardless of your own mood or condition

 

[crack]

Guess it means: putting up a nice face for everyone and having an ear for all problems, disregardless of your own mood or condition

I don't see the connection between that and authenticity, though.

What if a person is antisocial? How are they being authentic when they "put up a nice face... etc"? Do they really value authenticity, or PC-ness?

 

[entropie]

I don't see the connection between that and authenticity, though.

What if a person is antisocial? How are they being authentic when they "put up a nice face... etc"? Do they really value authenticity, or PC-ness?

That is a different question and I agree.