[MBTI General] How does an FJ "grow" or "change"?

[sculpting]

This is a theoretical question, not one about a specific situation.

To begin, let me illustrate how I grow and change. I do this, not to be self centric, or ask for ways to change this but instead to be an illustration of what seems to be an ENFP archetypical pattern:

1. First I seek honest feedback from someone I trust
2. I seek emotional affirmation that I am a valued person and have worth and am accepted as I am.
3. I then seek a generalized example of what the issue is and why it impacts others
4. Then I seek concrete guidlines and very specific feedback on exactly what and how I need to change​

A specific incident with another ENFP, my son:

1. My son trusts me as his mother, thus we have an established relationship.
2. I say "I love you and you are a good hearted peron with good intents, but...
3. "you need to be more aware of how not picking up the house and helping out impacts your step-mom. It causes her stress and hurts her feelings, as it looks like you dont care about her"
4. "Start by taking the garbage out every morning, picking up after dinner and washing your own clothes..."​

********************************************************************

Can you guys help me understand what the symmetric pattern or series of steps would be for an FJ? I expect they may seem similar at first, but the details may differ somewhat???

something like:

1. A trusted person (what is trusted? how is this determined?)
2. "You are a clever person with good ideas..."
3. "but you are being irrational/rude/disrespectful/chaotic/self centered and causing unease to those around you by your behaviors and you really should be more aware of how you impact others
4. Fe-isms??
(Pls note this is simply an NeTe guess, just to provide structure to the discussion and is in no way meant to be "right"-I am actually seeking correction and clarification and understanding ​

Any ideas or thoughts?

 

[21%]

I'm not sure I understand the question correctly, but if you are asking how someone might suggest to an FJ how to "grow", I think what you need is extreme subtlety. Fe will try to assign "unspoken meaning" to everything and will easily feel offended by things spoken too directly. I think Fe prides itself for being considerate/thoughtful/helpful, so try not to suggest otherwise because the FJ would be extremely hurt by this.

The most important thing that will make me decide to change is to see how other people are affected by my actions. So, I'd say it's something like this

1) Set the stage: Fe likes to know where you're coming from so it can have an appropriate response.
2) Slowly lead into the topic: Introduce the idea slowly through the flow of the conversation
3) Hint how the FJ's action is affecting you or other people: Be gentle and don't use 'judging' words like "disrespectful" or "self-centered" -- describe how you or other people feel instead
4) Be sympathetic and say you understand why the FJ was doing what they were doing: After realizing how they have wronged others, Fe will be devastated and depressed/defensive, etc. depending on the FJ's health level, so it's nice to reassure them that you understand and you don't hate them

So let's say I have been under a lot of stress which puts me in a bad mood and I flip out over every little thing that doesn't go as planned and I'm making everyone's life miserable. A good way for someone to point this out to me would be:

1) "How are you? I've heard that things are rough at work."
- Yeah.
2) "You know, everyone's a little bit worried about you lately."
- Don't worry. I'm okay. I can handle it.
3) "It seems that you've been so stressed that when things go wrong you get extremely upset. I think X was a little hurt yesterday when you snapped at him."
- That's because I told him X, but then he did Y!
"Yes. But I think he would respond much better if you do [...] instead. I talked to him and he said he felt like you were mad at him all the time now."
- It's not like that at all!
4) "I totally understand. It's just things might be a bit overwhelming at the moment, especially with all the changes at your work. I know how rough it was when I was going through [...] last year."

(Continue to talk about problems)

It's not a perfect example, but I'd be okay with something like that. Remember, the trick is to hint, hint, hint how other people are feeling bad and that you understand why the FJ is acting that way. Fe has a natural tendency to consider the well-being of the group, so the FJ will know that some adjustment on their part is needed.

Something like that?

 

[Glycerine]

Basically I analyze everything. I am very critical of myself and others and then try to come up w/ ways I can improve myself from my analysis... if it's important enough.

 

[Sparrow]

Basically I analyze everything. I am very critical of myself and others and then try to come up w/ ways I can improve myself from my analysis... if it's important enough.

^ Ditto, this for sure!

Almost daily I reflect and think of what I can do to be a better person or how I can do a better job. Staying positive, having endurance, and being resilient is also essential (for me anyway) for growth and change.

I am actually going through some growing pains right now, it tough....but I'm not going to give up! I have a plan... muahahahahaaa (evil laugh).

 

[Glycerine]

^ Ditto, this for sure!

Almost daily I reflect and think of what I can do to be a better person or how I can do a better job. Staying positive, having endurance, and being resilient is also essential (for me anyway) for growth and change.
I am actually going through some growing pains right now, it tough....but I'm not going to give up! I have a plan... muahahahahaaa (evil laugh).

Good luck. I bet you will do well.

On another note, it annoys me when people criticize me on what I did.like you're being "rude", "inconsiderate", etc because I have already probably thought of it....

 

[Sparrow]

Good luck. I bet you will do well.

On another note, it annoys me when people criticize me on what I did.like you're being "rude", "inconsiderate", etc because I have already probably thought of it....

Thanks, I just hope they give me a chance to do well lol! I am trying so hard...

 

[OrangeAppled]

Fe will try to assign "unspoken meaning" to everything

Is this not a Ni thing also or instead? Or a Fe+Ni combo?
I don't note this in SFJs so much...

-------

I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]I can be bit like that if people dismiss and don't try to understand why I did a certain action. When they do understand it, I will change typically if it's warranted. I guess I take offense that they don't try to understand my perspective even if it seems like it's the dumbest shit on earth.

I have gotten into fights like that over the use of "fuck" (or "shit") out of frustration and then my INFP mom will give me a full-blown lecture on why I shouldn't use the word "fuck" or "shit" because it offends her (although she uses the words occasionally the same way).

If I am being an ass, I will always apologize.

 

[Viridian]

I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

Odd... I seem to remember an INFJ making the same complaint about INFPs in another thread - this tendency to think actions aren't harmful if their intentions are good, I mean.

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION] I think Fs (and Ts) tend to do it when they are deluded and blindsided by their own values. I see it consistently in both Fe and Fi users. I might have been the one who started that thread you are referring to. The thing is people typically don't like to be imposed upon if they think they are right....

 

[Elfa]

I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

My mom acts more or less like that... And I think she's ISFP...

 

[Luv Deluxe]

I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

I don't want to out myself, exactly, but speaking as an "unhealthy" INFJ, I think I might have some insight. (I'm putting "unhealthy" in quotes because I believe that we all have our issues. I'm not trying to seek any sort of uniqueness with that label; furthermore, everything is relative.)

What you're describing here sounds something akin to a defense mechanism called splitting, which is essentially a form of dichotomous thinking designed to ignore the coexistence of good and bad qualities in the same person (especially under stress). Combine this with extreme emotional sensitivity, and you've got someone who constantly plays the victim because they really do believe they are being victimized. Maybe for some it's a manipulation game, but from my perspective, it's sincere. It's a genuine but irrational flow of feeling that can get out of control very quickly. It goes something like this: you were a good person, a friend - but now you're hurting me by being so accusatory, and I don't know why this is happening since I didn't mean to hurt you, but now you're trying to hurt me on purpose because you're angry, why can't you just see things from my perspective because I've tried being empathetic to you, but it just wasn't good enough! And then it snowballs: you're just like everyone else who ever did this to me! You horrible human being, go screw yourself.

At its core, it's just invalidation breeding invalidation. I think being exposed to the wrong environment as a kid (especially if you're already a sensitive person) can encourage and even worsen this behavior well into adulthood. If you grow up learning that you're not supposed to cry, you're not supposed to feel this way, no one's going to listen to you, shut up and ignore it, etc...it can leave a lasting mark on very thin skin. So even in a small-scale, present-day argument, it is very easy to hit a sensitive person's triggers. However, in desperately defending oneself as the victim, the other party involved has his/her feelings disregarded, too - and this is not good.

Some of those behaviors might even be a little self-righteous. It's easy to feel like you're sooo infallibly empathetic (even though nobody is) that it actually catches you off-guard when you've accidentally stepped on someone's toes. And then it's erroneously perceived as an attack on your character when the other person points it out. Or worse - you feel like the other person did something to trip your moral code alarms, and therefore you believe they are deserving of an attack. If it can't be stopped before the situation spirals out of hand, there will be a lack of compromise, total misunderstanding, and extremely keyed up emotions that cause those infamous grudges and door slams. It's very honestly why I think we saintly INFJs might actually be capable of some very ugly things when unwell and crusading under the mask of our morality. (I'm not a religious person - let morality here just be a strong sense of right and wrong.) We can hurt ourselves with our own beliefs, I think.

I wouldn't give up on people like this, though. I decided to see someone about it, and I'm learning more all the time. I would like to be a better person, and I do genuinely feel bad when I look back on an episode and realize what a jerk I was. (I guess that's one way that I try grow and change as an FJ.)

I'm replying because I recognize those issues in myself and I happen to be an INFJ. Maybe there's something about INFJ wiring that makes us especially prone to these problems, or maybe several others will read this and go, "What the hell are you talking about? That's not me at all!" I actually don't know. Maybe I've just thrown myself off the extreme deep end and haven't made much sense to anyone at all. Hopefully it helped with your questions a little bit, anyway.

Now, if anyone needs me, I'm going to find a hole to crawl into.

 

[Elfboy]

FJs can grow by
- learning to leave other people the f@$k alone
- identifying and moving toward taking care of their own needs
- learning personal boundaries, both of themselves and others
- learning to step back and look at a situation from a more detached vantage point
- learning to disagree/conflict with someone when agreeing would detriment them
- learning to be assertive and speak up when something is wrong

 

[Dali]

I've brought this up in several threads, but no INFJ will address it.

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

Just add trust issues (his) to that mix and that would be basically what brought about my recent breakup with my ex (ENFJ).

 

[OrangeAppled]

I wouldn't give up on people like this, though. I decided to see someone about it, and I'm learning more all the time. I would like to be a better person, and I do genuinely feel bad when I look back on an episode and realize what a jerk I was. (I guess that's one way that I try grow and change as an FJ.)

Thank you so much for this explanation! A lot of what you said hit the nail on the head as to what I'm referring to (as I'm always wondering if I explained it clearly). I don't doubt that not all or even most INFJs have this "issue", but it's a specific way of doing this that I have found unique to the ones I've known, and you really grasped just what that was. A lot of you said is what I suspected, but the childhood invalidation part was interesting. As an INFP, I can relate to that a bit (I think it's common for INFx children to have feelings/perspectives invalidated), but it caused different adult issues .

What made you realize you sometimes had this tendency? It seems the main hurdle is simply acknowledging it to yourself. You've reached a point where you know a change is needed within, but how did you get there?

 

[Viridian]

Some of them can learn to not turn every conversation into an opportunity to remind you how generous and selfless they are. It's the Bryan Adams syndrome - "No, you don't understand, you can't criticize me, I'm doing this for you! ".

Hear that, ESFJ dad? /slightly bitter

 

[Luv Deluxe]

Thank you so much for this explanation! A lot of what you said hit the nail on the head as to what I'm referring to (as I'm always wondering if I explained it clearly). I don't doubt that not all or even most INFJs have this "issue", but it's a specific way of doing this that I have found unique to the ones I've known, and you really grasped just what that was. A lot of you said is what I suspected, but the childhood invalidation part was interesting. As an INFP, I can relate to that a bit (I think it's common for INFx children to have feelings/perspectives invalidated), but it caused different adult issues .

What made you realize you sometimes had this tendency? It seems the main hurdle is simply acknowledging it to yourself. You've reached a point where you know a change is needed within, but how did you get there?

I think I just had so much emotional turmoil and so many short-lived relationships (platonic or otherwise) that I decided to figure out what was happening, at the very least. I feel like both parties in such situations could always use more understanding. If the other people in my life weren't going make an effort, I felt that I ought to, especially since the problem seemed to follow me everywhere. And I think it's helped!

 

[Totenkindly]

My mom acts more or less like that... And I think she's ISFP...

Yes, I don't necessarily see this as an Fe thing. I think it does deal more with F than T, though, because of values and how one is focused on their relationships with others. Typically the F types take pride in how "nice" they are or how "good" they are or how "sensitive" they are or how well they treat others (while T's tend to obsess about other aspects of themselves), so criticizing that aspect of their character can trigger a bad reaction if the person relies too much on that image to justify their value or if they are just having a bad day.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Because of the nature of Fi, I think Fi-dom are more likely to turn judgment inward though, as opposed to always seeing the problem as the other person's fault. This creates a different set of problems when criticizing them, no less difficult, just different.

I don't think it's truly a Fe issue alone though....what I specifically described seems Ni+Fe. There's an element of ignoring facts (poor sensing) & choosing to interpret things as it suits them (the perspective shift). This is noted on some INFJ profiles*, and many Fe & Ni descriptions include aspects which easily combine to produce this quality. I'm interested in hearing how such individuals overcome this tendency. Thanks again to [MENTION=13973]AntiheroComplex[/MENTION] for the feedback.

*Personality Page:
-May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
-With their ability to see an issue from many sides, they may always find others at fault for any problems in their lives
-May believe that they're always right
-May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it

 

[SilkRoad]

I've had this experience with several INFJs:
You tell them that you are hurt by an action of theirs. They get upset that someone dare implies they are capable of being hurtful. You acknowledge that they did not have bad intentions, but you note that you still cannot accept this behavior, because it is hurtful regardless of intentions. This is an action not tolerated by most people; it is not a Fi value coming out of nowhere (two examples are: cruel name-calling and blowing someone off when you made plans with them). They basically insist YOU need to change how you feel now that you know they did not mean to be hurtful. Somehow, their intentions are supposed to make very disrespectful behavior okay, so that you are not allowed to be hurt by it or ask for different behavior in the future. So even though THEIR behavior was hurtful, they expect YOU to change as the solution; namely, to change your feelings about the behavior.

I don't understand this thinking. It's like only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt, and everyone has to change for them; they refuse to adjust to accommodate others' needs/feelings. It's a complete invalidation of the other person's feelings, insisting all compromise occurs on the other's end. You can't call them on it either, because again, they get hurt that anyone could suggest they are even able to hurt others, and so they will cut people off before they make even the smallest adjustment in their behavior. It's very "my way or the highway". Then they have the nerve (or maybe the delusion) to see themselves as victims. Is it possible to get through to such people, or is it a lost cause? The thing is, I've seen them do it with others, so that they have a negative, destructive pattern. It's self-sabotaging, but they refuse to take responsibility for the pattern, continuing to blame others. How does a person like this EVER grow or change? What has to happen to cause them to see that they even need to?

I'm inclined to think that this could happen with any type but that the rationale/reasons behind it would be different with all of them. With INFJs I supposed it could be the infamous "always right" syndrome which is a sort of combination of "my Ni gives me flawless intuition, and my Fe makes me perfectly diplomatic."

But I certainly don't think it's exclusive to Ni/Fe dom/aux. I mean, in all honesty I think I've run into something similar with FPs. In the case of FPs I suppose it is more like "my Fi means I must be true to how I feel right now - even if it means apparent external inconsistency and unreliability, and hurting or letting others down, it's how I feel and that must be right so I have to stick to it regardless of how it affects others."

I think I've seen the above in xNFJs and xNFPs both, and unless I'm way off that's approximately the reasoning behind either. But in any type I think it's indicative of an immature and selfish outlook. A lot of people are not able to properly take responsibility for their own actions and prefer a victim mentality whereby it's always someone else's fault. That's certainly not type-exclusive.