[MBTI General] INFJs from the perspective of other types

[Crescent Fresh]

Peacebaby, I don't understand why you needed to comment at all, honestly. Like Aphrodite, I find myself really feeling the INFJ in the exchange. I know that look she gave you. *yikes* Because your questions come across to me, putting myself in her position, as disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does, for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard that word). You had all the facts and you came to the right conclusion without her having to say anything. You knew she had stressful personal circumstances + you saw her cut the meeting late + you could see that she was tired. She would not have cut the meeting short if she had the energy to talk.

This is something that only INFJs get it, I'm afraid.

I can certainly understand Titlyred's perspective because when INFJ is under extreme stress, they're looking for sympathy. Not necessary empathy. It turns internally in "me, me, me" loop. Not to mention that we also tend to be "negatively" hyper-sensitive and very easily to misinterpret one's intention based on their choice of words.

So I can see why PB's friend might have gotten misinterpreted as she might have wanted a more direct approach as clearly she knew that she hadn't been at her best to remain professional in meetings.

Actually, when INFJs is in stress mode, they suffer a lot as on one hand they're perfectionist to their work, on the other hand they ended up giving up and sabotaging their work ethics. So any questions that might have interpreted toward her professionalism might further upset her. And of course, that's not PB's intention but it's just bad timing.

That is why the direct approach is the best. I can truly sympathize PB's situation as I know NFP has a natural tendency to care and try their best to NOT hurt others' feelings by "rephrasing" their questions into something else that may seem more appropriate for the other. I think PB is trying to be honest but yet she's also careful about not to cross her friend's boundary by phrasing it casually. I've seen many misunderstanding stem from different interpretation of wordings in these situations.

Though I must applaud PB's attempt to drill a deeper understand of how INFJ functions by sharing this story, and asking explicit questions in order to know how to deal with us. I hope I'll meet an INFP like PB soon later in my life.

Also I think we're pretty good at initiating conversation when we want conversation. That could just be me, and I'd be interested from other INFJs if they feel they are fine with asking for a talk when they want one, or just talking when they need to.

I think given PB's scenario with her friend, sincerity is the best approach. Perhaps an open invitation for asking her out for coffee (out of the office building), and then say along the lines like, "You seem to have a lot of things going in you, are you okay?" And I'm sure her friend will pour out every little things she would like to share with you. Since when INFJ is highly stressed or depressed, they really need someone to be able to listen to them.

So the key is to display a genuine interest in checking to see if they're okay, by letting them know that you have all the time to listen to their hardships.

I'm sorry if I'm making INFJs sounding more difficult than the description of MBTI, though please remember that when INFJ is suffering from any emotional mishaps, especially to people who are closest and dearest to them, it's often the most painful experience for us to get through as we lack of Fi to keep it all internally to ourselves.


I hope whatever I've said makes sense to NFPs.

 

[uumlau]

*sigh*

They do it to me, too, but usually only online, and only before I've developed a reputation for being a decent person. The problem, I think is that Fi is read as Ti, and you might be familiar with Oro's one-word synopsis of Ti: "mean." Ti tends to poke-poke-snark-jab-snark, and tends to expect the same in return. In combination with Se, it's the stereotypical guys punching each other just a little too hard, but still "friendly." Fe tends to handle Ti by giving it a good emo smack-down, which usually makes Ti back off and pull out the tert/inf Fe.

Reduced to clown status ...

Note that I had addressed the remark to Tiltyred, not you. I'm adjusting for her context.

I beg to differ, however. I picked up on pretty much every emotional cue in the room, and there could have been a half-dozen reasons why that meeting went the way it did. I don't want to make any assumptions why, so therefore I don't. So why does that mean I am the one left holding the emo-bag labelled "dolt"?

(Oh wait, it's because ... Fe and Te always think they are ... right!)

Again, the remark was aimed at Tilty, not you. Remember, you're asking why you're expected to know these things. The reason you don't is that you're seeing many possibilities (Ne). Ni+Fe sees it as one "obvious" meaning. From the Ni-dom perspective it's very difficult to realize that things that are "obvious" to Ni just aren't to other types (often not even ENxJ Ni-aux). The INTJ analogy would be my explaining a mathematical proof in three steps, and having to wait for the INTP to figure it all out for himself, because he doesn't see how my steps follow from one another.

ENFJ's though ... they'll tackle it with you, not freeze you out. What accounts for the difference?

Ni dom vs Te/Fe dom. Ni reflects first (sometimes for a long while), then acts very decisively. ENxJs act first, and then reflect if the action didn't seem to work out.

I think you don't think it could be seen any other way because the Fe filter enables you to possess a perspective of correctness. Just like Te. Just like that.

It's Ni, not Fe (or Te). And it isn't a perspective of correctness, it's that the fuzzy uncertainty is introverted and you don't see it.

I'm thinking that a lot of what you're running into is Ni vs Ne, not just Fi vs Fe.

Yes, and I feel so close to cracking it, but I can't. It's sometimes as close as my finger-tips, then something will happen as above and I'm scratching my head. So, practice hardly makes perfect in this instance!

Close though, sometimes close.

I do ask myself the same questions ... but being married to a Te dom, I just find the comparison to Fe so very analogous. My husband will say, "Of course I think I'm right! If you didn't agree, why didn't you say so!" But it's so much easier for him to accept my POV that I can't understand why it's SO MUCH HARDER with Fe! lol, I do know why, but ... well, it is what it is.

Again, I think Ni is the key you're missing. Not the Te vs Fe. Yes, the Fe comparison is analogous, but the Ni is what makes it "so much harder".

It's true, that. Don't have an answer. I'm so bendy already, it's not an issue every day thankfully.

The NFP is the one expected to adjust because the NFP has no expectations (as such) and the NFJ does.

 

[SilkRoad]

I wouldn't have found PB's approach the IDEAL way to phrase the concerned question (I would have taken the "are you ok?" approach). However, I don't think I would have been as insulted as some on this thread say they would have been. I am apparently fairly flexible though (have been told so by a lot of types - life has forced me to be so, I think).

Honestly, what I am getting from this thread is that INFJs and INFPs probably expect a somewhat unreasonably high degree of comprehension from each other. And this is coming from someone who can get seriously pissed off if she feels misunderstood (that's me :hi: ). And when they don't get that degree of misunderstanding everyone gets surprisingly exercised. There is a pretty high level of tension radiating off this thread at points

It seems as though we all feel that we get so close in some respects that we SHOULD be able to do better. [MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] said something earlier in this thread (I think) about letting go a little and not expecting 100% understanding. Probably good advice for everyone.

I don't think it's fair though to suggest that INFJs won't adapt and it's always the other way around. It's not inflexibility which has made me realise in recent years that I need to fight against being treated like (and sometimes acting like ) a doormat...let's put it that way.

 

[Southern Kross]

Here's an IRL example...

In fact, I sorta felt myself reacting for her. lol. You see, your 'questions' were laced with judgment---about her performance not being up to par. It would have been far better, imo, for you to have found a way to be more direct yet kind and discreet, say something like, "How are things with you?" leaving it more open-ended, and not so judgmental. (I know you are an awesome person, just sayin from my infj pov).

I know that look she gave you. *yikes* Because your questions come across to me, putting myself in her position, as disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does, for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard that word). You had all the facts and you came to the right conclusion without her having to say anything. You knew she had stressful personal circumstances + you saw her cut the meeting late + you could see that she was tired. She would not have cut the meeting short if she had the energy to talk.

Wow. It seems we really are speaking different languages here.

I totally identify with PB's approach and her confusion. I never would think those words would be interpreted in that way. I think I have much to learn about how INFJs see the world. I'm feeling rather nervous now looking back over my past communication with FJs.

The thing is this approach is the primary way I deal with someone that seems upset (that is, unless I am very close to them). The intention is no way to be judgmental or coy but to discretely let someone know that I noticed something's wrong and give them an opening to talk about it, should they wish to. I would never say, "you seem to be feeling X" or "is this really about A, B or C?" because I would consider this highly intrusive and presumptive. So I talk around the subject; I open up the floor to them and let them take the lead in the conversation. The idea is to demonstrate empathy (to let them know I care and show my willingness to listen) but also to give them the opportunity to brush me off without forcing them to say outright, "It's none of your business". Like in PB's example, the co-worker could say "It's just because I'm tired", even if it was a lie. And even if PB knew it was a lie I'm sure she wouldn't care, because to us this is code for "I don't want to talk about it", which is fine. Being emotionally transparent when you're upset can be unbearable and we recognise that sometimes people want others to just butt out or at least avoid talking about the issue in too much depth. To me it's also important to avoid explicitly voicing the things I have read or picked up on about someone* (their hang ups, their flaws, the mistakes they are making etc). I imagine it could be horrible to find out how much I know or that I'm evaluating them so closely - especially when they're upset. It would be like referencing the personal issues I discerned while reading their diary or something

*EDIT: Although I have long believed this, a recent experience has solidified it. I had a boss who totally did this to me when there were disagreements/tension between us, seemingly to put me in my place or to gain the upper hand (he was a ENFP if it matters ). It was an incredibly manipulative and shitty thing to do - it made me feel miserable and completely helpless

PB, imagine someone reading every possible inane insult behind everything you say, especially if you are approaching personal matters.
...
PB, my best advice as INFP/INFJ interlocutor (translating with common Ni with INFJ and Fi with INFP), is to be "emotionally blunt" rather than "factually blunt". Fi/Te tends toward the latter. But every Te-ish statement becomes infused with emotional meaning.
...
Note that he feels compelled to analyze my feelings, however circumspectly, which an NFP would not (or rather, would not talk about to me unless I directly asked).
...
NFPs tend to need/give that raw emotional input/output. Fi tends to express things as an emotional state of being. NFJs tend to convey an emotional meaning that is intended to be helpful/supportive/nudging/concerned, but is rarely directly so. Fe tends to express things as an emotional meaning/purpose.

You make some nice observations here. Thanks!

Although, I agree with PB's assessment on that one point:

I beg to differ, however. I picked up on pretty much every emotional cue in the room, and there could have been a half-dozen reasons why that meeting went the way it did. I don't want to make any assumptions why, so therefore I don't. So why does that mean I am the one left holding the emo-bag labelled "dolt"?

(Oh wait, it's because ... Fe and Te always think they are ... right!)

I think INFPs can read people well; we just don't know what to do with that information. INFJs do seem to know; they have a plan of action to go with their insights. As someone else said, INFPs believe that empathy will be enough but apparently its not.

 

[Fidelia]

It's strange how the opposite things that seem intrusive to us, don't to Fi-Te and what seems non-invasive to us does to them! I've observed this a couple of times in the Fe/Fi threads and been sincerely confused by it!

I agree with umlauu that Ni is the missing ingredient here that must be taken into account. I don't believe that INFJs think they are reading anything into what people are saying a lot of the time, but honestly take a statement such as the one PB suggested as a statement of fact and are surprised that others wouldn't. I think that's why Tilty responded as she did - puzzlement that it could be seen any other way. To me it would feel on the same level of directness as someone who is crying, but says they are fine - it seems clear that they are not fine although their words didn't say that.

Please Ask Signals
I was thinking about it overnight and concluded that for me, some signals that it was fine to go ahead and ask would be:
1) I've had a little time to think about it before it being broached.
2) I make eye contact and throw in verbal cues that bring up the subject without directly saying anything. I think it might feel invasive to the NFP to ask further, but that is a signal that it is okay to ask more "intrusive" questions directly. The INFJ just doesn't want to impose, so if you don't follow it up, they will take it as lack of comfort or interest.
3) If there appears to be puzzlement or irritation, it either means that the person needs more processing time or that they feel you have misunderstood an important piece of information and so sharing more will only create more emotional noise to wade through and delay them getting to solving their problem or discussing it to get clarity. Abort mission immediately! If you continue, their message will become increasingly blunt!

As someone said earlier, it does really help to have a chance to talk things out. However, it is important to me that the person I am talking to will not create more emotional white noise for me, by placing too much emphasis on my emotional state (which is transient and not an integral part of my identity), and it helps if they understand that my identity is very much bound up in my ideas/how I do my work etc. I think that's why I would have found PB's approach embarrassing - I would already be feeling a little unsure of myself, and then would feel that not only did others notice, but they also agreed that I wasn't doing well in one of the areas that largely defines what I think of myself!

Just as it would never (until coming here) have occurred to me that my most natural inclination for comforting others could be felt as very intrusive, judgemental or that I was putting people on the spot (suggestions of a different way to look at things and therefore to feel about them, asking questions etc), I think it is the same for Fi-Te because they are careful about different things and are careful not to intrude in those areas! It comes down to the fact that both parties are very protective of their introverted functions and not so much of their extroverted ones.

I appreciate PB putting herself out there to offer an example, because I do find it helpful to analyze where communication takes a wrong turn. I believe that probably these differences are greatly magnified in print because there is not the added benefit of body language etc. I know for me, these misunderstandings do not occur on a regular basis in real life and I believe PB has said the same for her. It is very helpful to know though where the potentially hot spots are so that both parties can be sensitive to them and even understand where the other has already made considerable adjustments in their approach or response.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh yeah, one other thought! I think sometimes INFJs seem a little inflexible because there are just so many different possibilities branching off of other possibilities, off of other possibilities that it becomes overwhelming and requires time to sort through them. Once they have picked something likely based on all the available information, then they become rather attached to it. The process was arduous to get there, particularly if they have been stuck in a Ni-Ti loop of info gathering and re-structuring endlessly! They need to be really sure that this new information is worth going through the whole process over again and that the other person understands everything that they've considered already!

Therefore, it is not a diss to the person trying to help if they are not open immediately, nor is it that they are just stubbornly hanging on to a pet idea, procedure etc. It is a form of survival, and they also need time to be allowed to shift perspectives and see where change is necessary before they can be open to discussing HOW that could happen. They cannot get to the details of what changes need implementing before they have had time to sort out what they are seeing in front of them and what their options are first. While their emotional state may add information, it does feel that discussing the emotional state itself is not central to making their problem seem more manageable. This is not to say that their emotions are not important or that they don't need attention. However, until the more pressing inner alarms can be addressed and disarmed, they cannot focus well on that aspect of the problem.

 

[PeaceBaby]

post 1

+

post 2

Thanks for ALL of that. Your posts were great ... and thank you for ... saying thanks. It's embarrassing to put my personal foibles online sometimes but I am happy if at least they help me understand better and present an opportunity to further everyone's understanding.

Again, the remark was aimed at Tilty, not you. Remember, you're asking why you're expected to know these things. The reason you don't is that you're seeing many possibilities (Ne). Ni+Fe sees it as one "obvious" meaning. From the Ni-dom perspective it's very difficult to realize that things that are "obvious" to Ni just aren't to other types (often not even ENxJ Ni-aux). The INTJ analogy would be my explaining a mathematical proof in three steps, and having to wait for the INTP to figure it all out for himself, because he doesn't see how my steps follow from one another.

Fi + Ne sees the emotional signs all over, from all the different people, yes. There's a whole whack of data to process. I had already assigned a mental probability of how likely each scenario was, given the context of information I knew, what I could intuit, and what I could directly sense. What's funny is that I asked a question that had the most relevance within the context of our daily interaction. I kept the topic where it was reasonably safe to keep it, on the meeting itself. lol and on any other day that question could have been a safe one too, if the meeting was less than ideal for any other reason.

Of note, the questions that the INFJ's are proposing be asked of them would be non-helpful and rather insulting to me. I used to just freeze that approach. It feels so assumptive, and so person-focussed rather than fact-focussed. I can appreciate where it's coming from though, and appreciate the effort. BUT wow, if I was at THAT point of visibly being interpreted, I'd be a bomb ready to detonate. I would have already removed myself from the situation and be working on disarming myself.

Aren't we all just a mixed bag of signals!

Again, I think Ni is the key you're missing. Not the Te vs Fe. Yes, the Fe comparison is analogous, but the Ni is what makes it "so much harder".

The Ni makes it harder, yes, but it's what also makes it possible, so I am grateful for that. Sometimes the SFJ perspective allows for no wiggle room at all.

OTOH, SFJ's are more likely to accept my feelings at face value (when I explain things through) rather than interpret these multiple meanings over words that just mean what they mean. And strangely, I don't feel uncomfortable probing an SFJ for what's bothering them, I can readily find the key to that door and I am happy it usually opens easily.

The NFP is the one expected to adjust because the NFP has no expectations (as such) and the NFJ does.

NFP's do a whole whack of adjusting (or maybe I should just speak for myself, but ya). Do you realize that? It makes me feel pretty talented sometimes, and sometimes like a total ingenue.

Honestly, what I am getting from this thread is that INFJs and INFPs probably expect a somewhat unreasonably high degree of comprehension from each other. And this is coming from someone who can get seriously pissed off if she feels misunderstood (that's me :hi: ). And when they don't get that degree of misunderstanding everyone gets surprisingly exercised. There is a pretty high level of tension radiating off this thread at points

lol indeed ... although, I don't expect to be understood anymore I don't think - just here on the forums from time to time. Maybe that's from where I am in my life stage though. I've already spent a great many years not being understood, so I have shed that cocoon of expectation, and I feel pretty much at peace about that now.

Here on the forum I do want to feel like what I say is accepted for what it is.

The thing is this approach is the primary way I deal with someone that seems upset (that is, unless I am very close to them). The intention is no way to be judgmental or coy but to discretely let someone know that I noticed something's wrong and give them an opening to talk about it, should they wish to. I would never say, "you seem to be feeling X" or "is this really about A, B or C?" because I would consider this highly intrusive and presumptive. So I talk around the subject; I open up the floor to them and let them take the lead in the conversation. The idea is to demonstrate empathy (to let them know I care and show my willingness to listen) but also to give them the opportunity to brush me off without forcing them to say outright, "It's none of your business". Like in PB's example, the co-worker could say "It's just because I'm tired", even if it was a lie. And even if PB knew it was a lie I'm sure she wouldn't care, because to us this is code for "I don't want to talk about it", which is fine. Being emotionally transparent when you're upset can be unbearable and we recognise that sometimes people want others to just butt out or at least avoid talking about the issue in too much depth. To me it's also important to avoid explicitly voicing the things I have read or picked up on about someone* (their hang ups, their flaws, the mistakes they are making etc). I imagine it could be horrible to find out how much I know or that I'm evaluating them so closely - especially when they're upset. It would be like referencing the personal issues I discerned while reading their diary or something

Yes, very well-expressed from the NFP POV.

Please Ask Signals
I was thinking about it overnight and concluded that for me, some signals that it was fine to go ahead and ask would be:
1) I've had a little time to think about it before it being broached.
2) I make eye contact and throw in verbal cues that bring up the subject without directly saying anything. I think it might feel invasive to the NFP to ask further, but that is a signal that it is okay to ask more "intrusive" questions directly. The INFJ just doesn't want to impose, so if you don't follow it up, they will take it as lack of comfort or interest.
3) If there appears to be puzzlement or irritation, it either means that the person needs more processing time or that they feel you have misunderstood an important piece of information and so sharing more will only create more emotional noise to wade through and delay them getting to solving their problem or discussing it to get clarity. Abort mission immediately! If you continue, their message will become increasingly blunt!

I appreciate PB putting herself out there to offer an example, because I do find it helpful to analyze where communication takes a wrong turn. I believe that probably these differences are greatly magnified in print because there is not the added benefit of body language etc. I know for me, these misunderstandings do not occur on a regular basis in real life and I believe PB has said the same for her. It is very helpful to know though where the potentially hot spots are so that both parties can be sensitive to them and even understand where the other has already made considerable adjustments in their approach or response.

Thanks for the tip list, and thanks ...

Thankfully, I don't have dozens of examples to share, no!

 

[Anew Leaf]

One of the best lessons I have learned in life is this: The burden of being understood lays primarily with me and not on the rest of the world. If I am feeling misunderstood then I need to explain myself better or simply accept that the other person may not be able to understand where I am coming from on an issue.

So if what you guys need is discussing the why of something - that's helpful to hear; I can better tailor my discussions with my INFJs then. Just don't assume that everyone will naturally understand what you need right off the bat. And sometimes it may end up working out that you need to seek out a fellow INFJ to vent to in order to get that extra layer of understanding. Otherwise let us know how we can help you and respect that we are doing our best when we put forth an effort.

 

[Fidelia]

Great post, Saturned!

Yeah, the WHY is the best possible thing you can do for us! The most discombobulating thing I could experience is having no explanation for something. In the absence of definitive evidence, then I am likely to look at the possible reasons for someone's behaviour and try to pick the most likely based on past experience, general trends, what I know of the person, info I have access to and so on. This I know is probably the most frustrating thing to Fi-Te people, as it seems very presumptive. It is really about our compulsive need to understand though rather than a comment on other people though. If you give us something to work with, explain your thought process or give some explanation that silences the dizzying whirl of possibilities, we generally seem to be able to go with the flow a lot better.

I agree with you though that probably Fe-Ti or Fi-Te-ers are best at comforting like-oriented individuals and then realizing that the others will be for them if they are instructed what would be msot helpful and given some understanding.

 

[uumlau]

I had some more thoughts on how Ni vs Ne contributes to these issues.

First a story:

One night I was driving to dancing when I saw this car behaving very erratically. The first thing I noticed is that there seemed to be something wrong with its lights. They kept on going on and off. I was wondering if he was having issues. Perhaps he was speeding up and slowing down trying to puzzle out his lighting issues. This kept up for about a minute or so, to the point I was beginning to think he was just being a jerk.

Then I

looked down, saw that my lights were off, and bashfully turned them on.

​

The point of this story is that this is exactly what I go through when I have trouble communicating with an INTP. (Remember, this is "when I have trouble" not "all the time". Usually conversations don't have these issues.)

The INTP will chime in with an abstract fact. Or if he's really trying to explain something, he states lots of abstract facts, or asks questions about abstract facts. All of this can be very puzzling to an INTJ. There is no meaning or relationship between the facts and questions. It is very easy to assume, at this point, that the INTP is simply very confused about something, so the INTJ will get all pedantic and condescending (no, really?! ). Alternatively, it can be easy to conclude that the INTP is just trying to be annoying or give the INTJ a hard time, which can evoke a more visceral, emotional response from the INTJ. (This is especially likely if inferior Fe comes into play.) Or, the INTJ can respond more Ni-wise, and carefully explain to the INTP how the INTP isn't communicating clearly. Of course, none of these are helpful interactions.

In reality, it's more like my story. The INTP is desperately trying to communicate something, but due to limited communication modes, is left to dropping crumbs and hints, rather than simply supply a directive (Te-style).

I believe this exact same dynamic applies between INFJ and INFP (when things go wrong, which isn't always). The INFP is stating abstract emotions, or emotional questions, "Emo. Emo emo. Emo?" (Yes, PB, I know that's not what you're saying or how you say it; this is the Ni-impression of the statements. The statements lack the Ni-connections between each other.) The INFJ is, like the INTJ, left to pick up these crumbs and discern some sort of meaning from them. It's more likely to get into the realm visceral negative reactions, because Fe and Fi are in play, as opposed to Te/Ti, but the core confusion is the same. The INFJ is looking for meaning, relationships, context, basically all the lines the connect these disparate emo statements.

Again, this is all just when it goes wrong. Also, INTPs and ENTPs are perfectly capable of connecting their ideas together and enunciating them in ways that are clearly understood by others - it just isn't their natural mode of communication, just as INTJs can learn to say Fe-ish things even thought that isn't their natural mode.

I've posted this before, but it's relevant here: Watch Richard Feynman explain how one works with physics theories in a very clear manner. If you watch any of these videos closely, you'll notice that at times he's Ne-Ti (stating facts and patterns), at times he's Fe (e.g., his self-deprecating beginning statements in the first video), and at times he goes over things very systematically relating THESE ideas to THOSE ideas, and explaining what they mean and imply (in a very Ni way!). He doesn't make you guess what he means, as xNTPs often unintentionally do.

The analogy for xNFPs is that leaving options open ends up making INFJs guess what you mean, and like my story, they're going to guess wrong a lot. (As has been noted, in-person communications are often much clearer, and the meaning is guessed from tone of voice and body language and other contexts, but online, the guessing is essentially random. I suspect inferior Se plays a role here, supplying information in real life that is unavailable online.)

EDIT: w/r to saturned's post, yes, discussing the "why" is key, even if it seems pointless to say why. E.g., one might not know why, but it helps to say "I don't know why" which ends up becoming the "why" of the discussion: to bounce around ideas and figure out why.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ look at all the WORK I had to do to help you realize your lights were off?

See, your Te framework led your first thought to be, "What's wrong with that guy?" instead of "What's wrong with me?" If someone flicked their lights at me, I would immediately think I was being alerted to something, "What's wrong with me?".

The same phenomenon exists with Fe. It's not just the obscuring of Ni here. It's that default first thought, and now that I've been studying, I see it in all my acquaintances and friends and family who are dom & aux Te or Fe. Their complaints revolve around how THE OTHER PEOPLEZ and / or THEIR IDEAZ R SO STUPID or so UNCARING and UNFAIR! (Now, I used to see it before, just had no labels in order to quantify percentages. And it's pretty much 100%)

I have my own "faux Fe" and my own "baby Te" and it is pretty much my face to the world 24 / 7, except with the precious few who "speak Fi" and we can just trust that we are who we are and we say what we see and we just "get it".

I don't think I can communicate further in this thread at this point without sounding whiny that it does get wearying IRL playing the chameleon, adapting to a whole whack of people who are incapable of communicating in little else but their default mode. And ALWAYS having to prove myself right in order to be heard! And it's necessary that I do, and I am grateful I have learned to, because otherwise, I'd be considered a whole way weirder than I already am.

EDIT: it's probably why I and perhaps other NFP's get touchy talking about Fi on here and other types argue whether our Fi talk is right or not. It's like, "You guys are "right" about all your other stuff. Get off of Fi, it's the only thing we should legitimately get to be the authority of, without having to hear y'all disagreeing."

DOUBLE EDIT: And I am not complaining about anyone in this thread; it's awesome we can talk about this stuff and I appreciate it deeply.

-----

HOWEVER, not to dilute what I have learned from this thread. It's been informative and I am happy to take away some increased understanding and strategies.

 

[PeaceBaby]

P.S. I know the above probably sounds like "emo, emo emo, emo!!!"

It's just a little rant, nothing personal towards anyone and I am done now.

 

[Tiltyred]

Random

Last Spring, a co-worker's beloved wife and mother of his children was hit by a truck and died of her injuries a couple of days after. Since then, some days he doesn't speak. Some days he goes in his office and shuts the door, comes out after a couple of hours and leaves for the day. He screwed up some stuff with his money in minor way (paid one account twice, didn't pay the other one at all so that card was shut off). He can be standing right in front of something that's marked for him, and doesn't notice it. He seems perfectly solid one day and the next he's just not there.

Never at any point did I think of asking him what was the matter. I know what's the matter. His wife got hit by a truck and died.

Maybe twice, when he has happened to be physically close to me and there's nobody else around (like in the pantry getting coffee, or by the mail drop), I have very quietly asked "You all right?" Mostly he avoids eye contact, nods briefly, proceeds.
One time he volunteer a little bit about specifically what was on his mind at that time, which was wondering if he would ever feel normal again, that he kept waiting to be how he used to be and the longer it takes, the more he wonders if it will never happen.

It never ever occurred to me that this is against me or that he doesn't like me anymore, or that the reason is anything other than what he already told me.

So if somebody tells me they're going through a divorce, and their performance is somewhat erratic, I don't feel a need to ask them, even a month later, what's the matter.

That's all I'm saying.

There's something about perception of time and space here, I don't know how to put my finger on it, but it's like Fi can't anchor itself to any reality, or like they expect the framework to have unexpectedly changed all of a sudden. I have an INFP friend (surprise, surprise, Peacebaby!) whose connection with me is about color, and she says things like "I just can't get my head around so-and-so's palette." Ok, it's not something you have to make up in your head. Look at the pictures.

What is this part of it, because that seems like the problem, to me. *edit to explain further, because the not explaining further seems to be a problem* -- I feel like INFPs make work for themselves when there isn't any. The reason the INFJ told you that one personal thing and did not go any further into it is because she expected that you would remember and understand -- that's the reference point she gave you, that she is a person going through a divorce. So I don't understand why your mind goes all over the place all the time. If she hadn't given you the reference point, I could understand it. But it's like, to me, with all respect, you make work for yourself and then blame the other person. "I try so hard, I bend, I understand, I empathize, you don't appreciate me, you make me work harder, why do I have to work so hard?" You don't!

 

[PeaceBaby]

What is this part of it, because that seems like the problem, to me. *edit to explain further, because the not explaining further seems to be a problem* -- I feel like INFPs make work for themselves when there isn't any. The reason the INFJ told you that one personal thing and did not go any further into it is because she expected that you would remember and understand -- that's the reference point she gave you, that she is a person going through a divorce. So I don't understand why your mind goes all over the place all the time. If she hadn't given you the reference point, I could understand it. But it's like, to me, with all respect, you make work for yourself and then blame the other person. "I try so hard, I bend, I understand, I empathize, you don't appreciate me, you make me work harder, why do I have to work so hard?" You don't!

@bold: I guess I wouldn't have to for you, if I happened to realize the most pressing issue in your life that defined your every waking moment, and if there was only one over-arching issue at the time. Your example above is so extreme as to be insulting, really. Of course that man's heartbreak will define his life moving forward for many years, if not in some ways for a lifetime. Do you think my example above is even comparable to this?

What if I told you that SHE was the one who initiated the divorce, that she was the one who left her husband? He was faithful by all accounts, including her own. But she left him because they had "drifted apart" and even though she poured her heart and soul into him, he wasn't the ONE. From what I understand, much of the stress revolved around how her teenagers took things. When I look at her FB page and see the pics of her with her latest beau, I see in her eyes her hope that this one is the "ONE" - the one who won't disappoint, the one who'll do everything right. Does that change how you feel about her? Or if I tell you that this is her third divorce? I could go on, but it doesn't change how I feel about her, but it might change how you do. Although the time was filled with much stress, she wasn't a ... victim in all this.

Based on what you are sharing, I doubt you and I will ever come to an understanding (at least online) because it seems you will not be able to see things from my side of the fence. I feel like you change all the shades of grey to black and white. It makes me a little sad, just because I do find INFJ's interesting people, and I like to be friends and strive for understanding. I don't meet a lot of you IRL. We are similar but so different and it's such a cool blend that I find attractive. And I like your snappy style. Still though, I very much appreciate you getting in here and us trying to grok this out as far as we can.

 

[Tiltyred]

Divorce is very stressful, whether or not you initiate it and for whatever reasons it occurs, even if you're the "bad" person -- you're dealing with separation and the pain it causes your family and their family, and yeah, I would think that was an overriding concern for at least a year. I would consider it the factor to keep first in mind. Even after she's married to her new One, I'd give her about a year after that, too.

Yes, I think it's a comparable example. It's not quite as extreme, but it's comparable, to me. Divorce/death -- right up there among the major stressors of life. I would not expect much in terms of performance for quite a while.

It's not that I want things in black and white -- it's just a "forest for the trees" thing.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Per usual, I haven’t caught up- but I’m posting these thoughts now with the disclaimer that it might be touched on with posts I haven’t read yet.

I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

So - even though, to me, I didn't offer a concrete WHY, I was asking a question - the INFJ hears my question somehow as the whole package, the whole deal. I have to get every part right or I am wrong. Or I am making some big-ass judgement on her!

PB, you’ve mentioned before- noticing that it seems easy to lose an INFJ’s ‘trust’ and get written off, and that it seems permanent. And I think something fid wrote touches on that:

As someone said earlier, it does really help to have a chance to talk things out. However, it is important to me that the person I am talking to will not create more emotional white noise for me, by placing too much emphasis on my emotional state (which is transient and not an integral part of my identity), and it helps if they understand that my identity is very much bound up in my ideas/how I do my work etc. I think that's why I would have found PB's approach embarrassing - I would already be feeling a little unsure of myself, and then would feel that not only did others notice, but they also agreed that I wasn't doing well in one of the areas that largely defines what I think of myself!

I think, underlying it all, we all tend to have a very hard time making sense of our thoughts/feelings/the general way we experience the world. We instinctively gravitate towards people who help our experience of the world make more sense- and we instinctively gravitate away from anyone or anything that creates even more white noise. We’ll unconsciously move away from that which doesn’t help us ‘make sense’ of our experience of the world, without even knowing why. I might consider someone completely trustworthy and believe their intentions are entirely good- but if they draw attention to my immediate feelings (the ‘what’), like I said…..it just feels weird, it’s placing a priority on something which I don’t inherently place a priority myself and it doesn’t make sense. It makes me feel like in order to find a ‘same page’ with the person, I’ll need to pay attention to (and give weight to) my immediate feelings too- and there’s something stifling about that to me. We don’t want to establish a ‘what’- it seems superfluous- we want to unravel the ‘why’ which is causing a ‘what’ we don’t want to be feeling. There’s already so much ‘white noise’ in everyday life- I really think that much is a common INFJ thing- so we instinctively gravitate away from anything which causes even more than is already there. I want to liken it to the way a plant grows towards sunlight- it isn’t a conscious decision, it just does it, it just somehow *senses* that’s the direction which gives it the most nourishment.

They cannot get to the details of what changes need implementing before they have had time to sort out what they are seeing in front of them and what their options are first. While their emotional state may add information, it does feel that discussing the emotional state itself is not central to making their problem seem more manageable. This is not to say that their emotions are not important or that they don't need attention. However, until the more pressing inner alarms can be addressed and disarmed, they cannot focus well on that aspect of the problem.

Exactly.

Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".

I think this actually might be the Ti ‘bubble’. It’s almost odd the way skylights made a post about how Fi feels like a ‘bubble’ when she did because the same thing was occurring to me- that it seems like Fi’ers are more content to have the freedom of living on little islands of their own amongst others, whereas Fe’ers are more comfortable with establishing a ‘same page’ of sorts (the ‘value’ framework starts on the outside- gathering essentials on which to custom make our own, but we need fundamentals from the outside first). This creates a sort of distance. I think Ti does the same thing- we're most comfortable with 'space' to form our own thoughts. INFJs need to go through absolutely everything with a fine tooth Ti comb- everything must ‘make sense’ before we incorporate it into what we can rely on as ‘truth’. I’m content being left to believe in that which ‘makes sense’ and to leave other people to believe whatever ‘makes sense’ to them- so long as some Fe is holding it all together- I don’t need others to believe the same thing. So I’m wondering how much of the above is actually needing something that INFJs just don’t need, but maybe thinking they do and getting frustrated that it’s all being provided from one direction (as if “why must I do the work of fulfilling both our needs?” when actually it’s just the kind of ‘same page’ an INFJ doesn’t particularly need to feel).

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]: Maybe too there's that element of rejection that comes into play for me personally. There are some people that think for whatever reason, I am pretty cool. INFJ's usually do, the few I've met over the years and in fact, a couple of them have put me on a pedestal of sorts. (That could be a type + sx dom thing.) "This is my cool friend PB, she does all this uber-cool stuff and she's so smart and she's funnnnny! I just adore her!" and I can feel myself on this pedestal, even though I don't want to be there and all will go well until ...

It goes well until I first disagree with their POV or misinterpret something, as above. I can literally hear the file folders filing away each piece of information that to them does not jive, "Oh, maybe we are not as close as I thought ..." and so on. And I can feel the pull-away, the lure of the new and better person who will be the next great friendship trend. So, I get worried about doing wrong things then because I don't want to lose the relationship when, really, I should just not worry about it anymore, how people deal with me is their problem not mine. I really need to leave that mentality behind, trying to keep people happy. If someone wants to keep a scorecard on me, and move on, what can I do about that?

Me, I just don't leave people behind like that though, I suppose my Si is an anchor of sorts, our history has a tangibility that with my NFP friends, lends this kind of timelessness to our friendships. We can pick up the phone anytime and it's like no time has passed at all.

This is a real growth area for me at this point in my life.

And then, the INFJ's are all like, "Everyone is so mean to me! No one gets this!" and I'll come rushing in again, and offer the wrong things again. lol what a mess!

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think this actually might be the Ti ‘bubble’. It’s almost odd the way skylights made a post about how Fi feels like a ‘bubble’ when she did because the same thing was occurring to me- that it seems like Fi’ers are more content to have the freedom of living on little islands of their own amongst others, whereas Fe’ers are more comfortable with establishing a ‘same page’ of sorts (the ‘value’ framework starts on the outside- gathering essentials on which to custom make our own, but we need fundamentals from the outside first). This creates a sort of distance. I think Ti does the same thing- we're most comfortable with 'space' to form our own thoughts. INFJs need to go through absolutely everything with a fine tooth Ti comb- everything must ‘make sense’ before we incorporate it into what we can rely on as ‘truth’. I’m content being left to believe in that which ‘makes sense’ and to leave other people to believe whatever ‘makes sense’ to them- so long as some Fe is holding it all together- I don’t need others to believe the same thing. So I’m wondering how much of the above is actually needing something that INFJs just don’t need, but maybe thinking they do and getting frustrated that it’s all being provided from one direction (as if “why must I do the work of fulfilling both our needs?” when actually it’s just the kind of ‘same page’ an INFJ doesn’t particularly need to feel).

Well, I think they need it when they respond negatively to a communication style that would be acceptable to another xxFP, and they say they responded negatively because of how it was worded. That's essentially what [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] 's story concerning the INFJ was about, isn't it? She has been told her communication style, although delicate, was simply not to the INFJ's liking, & that's why she got shut down.

Now, I won't say this is an issue for all INFJs....I don't personally have communication issues with my INFJ aunt, but I do witness her weird double standards & impossible to please attitude with others where she expects this Fe delicate, diplomacy where she herself would turn into a steamroller, and yet the diplomacy is not even enough as she still ascribes ulterior motives that don't exist. Her & my ISFJ mom clash more because my mom will word things delicately & my aunt reads into it, but if my mom used that "bully language" my aunt uses, them my aunt would act extremely hurt. I saw this with my INFJ ex on occasion too; everyone must bend to them, but then they question the genuineness of those bending. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm filing this under "Ni paranoia" as well.

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, so ... as regards the topic, "INFJs From The Perspective Of Other Types," I suppose the conclusion is:
Do. Not. Like.

 

[Seymour]

There are some interesting elements involved here (although you may disagree).

Once difference from my own type that strikes me is how Je tends to mesh into an external network, and then see it as both a tool and something of inherent worth to be defended. This means anything that disturbs that system tends to be seen negatively or at least as a distraction (including one's own emotional state). From the NFP perspective the disruption has already happened and we're trying to help whomever tend to it. From your perspective you are keeping your focus, and we're just emphasizing a distraction.

The other think that strikes me is how purposeful you guys seem to be. While I'm great at focusing on what's in front of me, I do much worse at longer range tasks. That's especially true if I have multiple long range tasks to manage.

Your INFJ (and NJ as a group) ability to keep keep track of the longer term campaign amazes me, as does your ability to make patient efforts on multiple fronts to achieve your goals. There's a kind of implacableness to it that's both admirable and intimidating.

A final thing that I admire in the NJ ability to see momentum across periods of time. I'm very attuned to where things are headed in the present moment, but relatively unaware of how those things track across events and encounters. Your over-time tracking ability becomes a little personally scary when I'm the one being tracked and my inconsistency it projected forward in time (so I am perceived as being "untrustworthy" or "too inconsistent").

And to respond to [MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION], I don't think INFJs are unlikeable at all. In fact, I think most of the NFPs on this thread have talked about cases where they liked the INFJs and wanted a positive relationship with them... but eventually misstepped in some way they didn't fully understand at the time.

Personally I've found SFJs to be less flexible in their interpretation when I've misstepped somehow. I've only experienced occasional pockets of NFJ rigidity which are all the more surprising for being so unexpected (kind of like INFP stubbornness contrasts to the normal flexibility and accommodation).