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  1. #11
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Dec 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Sounds good. I think I understand what you mean about the "presenting"'s extraverted perceiving time.
    Yeah, but... extroverted perceiving that far down the totem pole isn't really open or free. There's masses of conditions. It's some kind of interesting contradiction though. On the one hand, going "there" opens up a pathway to something new. On the other hand, even getting there at all will see you clamping down on pure freedom of expression itself in order to make the pathway.

    But the ideal if left to be ideal will rot. And any attempt to instantiate the ideal will, like Vala says, annoy and trouble others. And that, ironically enough, is the lifeblood of the ideal. To annoy and trouble others is to have a living and enlivened set of ideals, possibly one day perfected.

    I like these kinds of ideas. They suggest a freedom to me that's invigorating. (And, god help me, are so very aspirational as to have become mythological.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Jan 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    So...lately I've noticed how strongly Fi "shoulds" determine my interpersonal relationsips, especially romantic situations. I can't seem to integrate them with the bits and pieces of "reality" that enter my line of sight. I'm stuck between intellectually and experientially realising that for example there are certain distinct differences between men and women (say that I'm confronted with a couple of my male friends commenting on the looks of an attractive female (without taking into account who she *is* as a whole) which invokes the "men are visual creatures" idea) and having no way of truly accepting that because I have such a strong Fi reaction to it and I feel that it just "shouldn't" be that way. This is just one example, but I notice that I react particularly strongly to Fe(Si)-flavoured gender stereotypes (ah yes, they are often everything I believe I'm not), they seem crude, cynical, merely pragmatic and just not thought through much in the same way that I assume Ti can despise Te. And can get TPs to turn away from society altogether. And I get the impression that I focus on these "breaches" of my Fi a lot.

    The problem is that I sense I'm missing something, I'm being too monolithical in my approach of these things, I'm not letting things breathe. Even with all that Fi swooshing around, I'm not actually being fair or honest or generous and nuanced in my approach of people here - not really giving the grey and messiness of "reality" a chance. How does one deal with reality when the irrational ideal weighs on you so heavily, with the feeling of disappointment, of not belonging in a world that seems interpresonally ruthless, of not getting and fitting (a certain subset of) the expectations of society? I don't get the impression I'm navigating this stuff productively or honestly (and I know in part because of the contrast with how my Te works in other areas. I see Ti users struggling in those areas and I know now how debilitating it can be, that sometimes it just feels like you "can't", you're blocked from the inside). Perhaps it's that even though I don't feel like I need to learn to accept these Fe/Si currents in society by default, I do feel like I need to at least be able to consider them in a more or less objective way. And whatever else is going on around me.

    I thought you (other (Fi) users welcome too of course) might have some ideas or stories to share.
    LOL, the INFP answers actually taught me a lot...

    How to deal? when younger I just accepted the fact that the world was full of people who were cruel, selfish and hurtful. I simply shrugged my shoulders, accepted that I cannot change this, decided to live by my own standards as much as possible, then tried to live as pragmatically as possible, protecting those in my care. Put simply, the world is a fucked up, hopeless place in many ways and I can only do so much to fix it. Sometimes it is easier to just turn away and take care of my own...I also concluded that I would never fit in properly, then decided I did not care and just put the social judgments of others on "ignore".

    However I cant REALLY hide from the pain and hurt from other people, as it still permeates me and leaves me with a sense of sadness and a graet ache inside...does it really have to be so hopeless? I sigh a deep sigh and try and help where I can.

    I recognize Vala's suggestion of absorbing the ugliness of reality into the ideal of existance. To look for the beauty in a piece of trash on the ground, an angry man at the store, the thoughts of a sexist young INTJ male, or the endless drama that accompanies human relationships is very easy-but I think THAT "beauty" is actually my apprication of the uniqueness of each of those entities and the potentials they possess, the complexity each represents, even perhaps an abstraction of the beauty I see in them in others like them-an idalization in itself. A deeply held value is the right to be unique and the right each entity posseses to exist as an independent, self determined thing-having picked it's own path, thus I find the result to be beautiful and of value.

    However it doesnt change the cringe I feel at the pain those paths lead to for others...the angry man at the store may be beautiful in his complexity, expression, individuality, and be an example of the right to self determination, thus be beautiful-but his harsh words still hurt another, thus it becomes value against value, and for myself, hurting another is one of the most important values. Thus even the beauty becomes ugliness...

    Always, being able to accept the perspective of others has been a saving grace for me-being able to see their perspective via Ne-if someone is simply behaving as they are taught (or much later I understood, as they are cognitively designed), it becomes REALLY difficult, to then feel that sense of repulsion and sadness or moral outrage-my own sense of moral fair play begins to lecture my sense of moral outrage, and thus I have to grudgiingly admit I am not being fair....

    I am then left puzzled and searching for more information, so that I can re-engineer what the proper expectation is for each individual...understanding that the proper expectation results in forgiveness and a sliding scale of values expectations for different people. Eventually that sliding scale deginerates into an infinite scale, personalized for each person I know, reflecting their needs.

    For example, understanding that the young sexist INTJs are making mistakes due to Te generalizations, searching for their anima, and seeking answers via need for external questioning drastically reduces my desire to chop off their testicles, and instead I sort of feel oddly nurturing towards them and just ignore it as a stage of growth for them.

    Hope some of this babble was of value... *hugs*

  3. #13
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Apr 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hope some of this babble was of value... *hugs*
    Definitely, thanks. With understanding (but it's an understanding that's different from what Ni-Te provides), the choppy no longer holds, it has no base.

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