[NF] Consoling an NF

[INTPness]

I've recently become really good friends with an INFJ. His wife is also an NF of some sort in my estimation. We've had some really good conversations and become very good friends in a relatively short amount of time. He lost his job recently for trying to be ethical and "blowing the whistle" on something he knew was going on in the workplace and he got shown the door in short order.

I spent a good amount of time consoling him. He's really taking it hard, saying things like, "I'm not a good father because I didn't consider my children's welfare before blowing the whistle. I just pictured myself as the 'white knight' who was doing the right thing and now I'm nothing but a jobless father who didn't put his kids first." Or, "They'd all probably be better off without me."

I mean, hours and hours of "I can't believe how stupid I am." I totally feel for him and want to be there as much as I can, but anything I say he just reverts back to "how stupid he is and he can't believe what he did".

I'm obviously not going to snap him out of it by encouraging him, so what is the best thing a friend can do here? Just continue to listen? I told him to give me a call anytime or e-mail me if he needs support and he said he'd surely take me up on that.

Is it just one of those things that will take time for him to come to grips with? Can NF's (or INFJ's) get into a self-condemning loop where they talk and think poorly of themselves?

At first I tried to just listen, understand, encourage, support, and build him up. But, after seeing that it seemingly wasn't helping, I tried to teach him an NT trick: detach yourself from taking it personal. I basically said, "Take your time and grieve for a few weeks. Spend time with your family and those you love. Re-evaluate your life and what is most important and dear to you. Then begin to move in that direction. Use this as a fresh start; a new lease on life. Turn bad into good. But, don't take this so personally. You're a good man, you're a good husband and father. You made a mistake. It's OK. But whether it's right now, or in a couple weeks, or in a month, at some point you will want to put it behind you and realize that it's now a part of your past. For the sake of your family and your own sanity, you'll want to begin looking forward so that you can be productive again."

And he'd just say, "Yeah, I just don't know."

What else can I do here NF's to be there for this family?

 

[Glycerine]

INTPness, just be there for him. Lighten up the mood and fun with him because no matter how much you try to convince him otherwise with cold, hard facts that his perceptions are distorted, it can be a futile effort. He probably needs to work through things and figure things out for himself. As a borderline NFJ myself, I can be unnecessarily harsh on myself and have to fight my own demons and find my own epiphanies to get over things I deem as true failures and mistakes.

It's cool that you want to help him by listening but at the same time, your friend needs to get steered away from thinking too deep into the ramifications and analysis of the situation. Ni blackhole is a bad mental space. It's all about broken record thinking, thinking in depth about every little offshoot the mind can think of, all the future possibilities and what-ifs. It's like rape of the mind to whoever becomes the sound board.

 

[INTPness]

INTPness, just be there for him. Lighten up the mood and fun with him because no matter how much you try to convince him otherwise with cold, hard facts that his perceptions are distorted, it can be a futile effort. He probably needs to work through things and figure things out for himself. As a borderline NFJ myself, I can be unnecessarily harsh on myself and have to fight my own demons and find my own epiphanies to get over things I deem as true failures and mistakes.

It's cool that you want to help him by listening but at the same time, your friend needs to get steered away from thinking too deep into the ramifications and analysis of the situation. Ni blackhole is a bad mental space. It's all about broken record thinking, thinking in depth about every little offshoot the mind can think of, all the future possibilities and what-ifs. It's like rape of the mind to whoever becomes the sound board.

Thanks for the input. Yeah, it was kind of like the bolded part. I think my Ne humorous side is probably more valuable to him at this time than my Ti analysis or even Fe "don't worry, everything is going to work out."

 

[Moxiest]

I've recently become really good friends with an INFJ. His wife is also an NF of some sort in my estimation. We've had some really good conversations and become very good friends in a relatively short amount of time. He lost his job recently for trying to be ethical and "blowing the whistle" on something he knew was going on in the workplace and he got shown the door in short order.

I spent a good amount of time consoling him. He's really taking it hard, saying things like, "I'm not a good father because I didn't consider my children's welfare before blowing the whistle. I just pictured myself as the 'white knight' who was doing the right thing and now I'm nothing but a jobless father who didn't put his kids first." Or, "They'd all probably be better off without me."

I mean, hours and hours of "I can't believe how stupid I am." I totally feel for him and want to be there as much as I can, but anything I say he just reverts back to "how stupid he is and he can't believe what he did".

I'm obviously not going to snap him out of it by encouraging him, so what is the best thing a friend can do here? Just continue to listen? I told him to give me a call anytime or e-mail me if he needs support and he said he'd surely take me up on that.

Is it just one of those things that will take time for him to come to grips with? Can NF's (or INFJ's) get into a self-condemning loop where they talk and think poorly of themselves?

At first I tried to just listen, understand, encourage, support, and build him up. But, after seeing that it seemingly wasn't helping, I tried to teach him an NT trick: detach yourself from taking it personal. I basically said, "Take your time and grieve for a few weeks. Spend time with your family and those you love. Re-evaluate your life and what is most important and dear to you. Then begin to move in that direction. Use this as a fresh start; a new lease on life. Turn bad into good. But, don't take this so personally. You're a good man, you're a good husband and father. You made a mistake. It's OK. But whether it's right now, or in a couple weeks, or in a month, at some point you will want to put it behind you and realize that it's now a part of your past. For the sake of your family and your own sanity, you'll want to begin looking forward so that you can be productive again."

And he'd just say, "Yeah, I just don't know."

What else can I do here NF's to be there for this family?

I know the economy is bad and all.... but is there a way you can help him find a job?

This is very interesting to me, as I have lost a job due to ethics, and so has another NF i know..... fascinating....

 

[Anew Leaf]

Is it just one of those things that will take time for him to come to grips with? Can NF's (or INFJ's) get into a self-condemning loop where they talk and think poorly of themselves?

1- Yes. It sounds like there is a bit of a war going on with himself between the whole NF crusade (I must be ethical at all costs!) and just being a man/husband/father (I should put their needs before my own.) Both sides probably need to have their say for a bit as he works this out for himself.

2- Yes. It's rather embarrassingly easy to do. It's a combination of subjective viewpoint combined with unrealistic expectations. For me I find the way to "snap out if it" is to externalize what I am thinking (oh the horror!) to people I trust and gather information from them.

This is a pretty major event and while you guys are good friends, he probably needs to hear this stuff from his wife. What I would suggest for you to do as his friend is to continue to be there for him as he needs.... While providing some levity as appropriate. Maybe you guys can go get a beer together, or go to a movie, or a box social.

Hope this helps!

Edit: What not to do: disappear on him.

 

[ceecee]

I've recently become really good friends with an INFJ. His wife is also an NF of some sort in my estimation. We've had some really good conversations and become very good friends in a relatively short amount of time. He lost his job recently for trying to be ethical and "blowing the whistle" on something he knew was going on in the workplace and he got shown the door in short order.

I spent a good amount of time consoling him. He's really taking it hard, saying things like, "I'm not a good father because I didn't consider my children's welfare before blowing the whistle. I just pictured myself as the 'white knight' who was doing the right thing and now I'm nothing but a jobless father who didn't put his kids first." Or, "They'd all probably be better off without me."

I mean, hours and hours of "I can't believe how stupid I am." I totally feel for him and want to be there as much as I can, but anything I say he just reverts back to "how stupid he is and he can't believe what he did".

I'm obviously not going to snap him out of it by encouraging him, so what is the best thing a friend can do here? Just continue to listen? I told him to give me a call anytime or e-mail me if he needs support and he said he'd surely take me up on that.

Is it just one of those things that will take time for him to come to grips with? Can NF's (or INFJ's) get into a self-condemning loop where they talk and think poorly of themselves?

At first I tried to just listen, understand, encourage, support, and build him up. But, after seeing that it seemingly wasn't helping, I tried to teach him an NT trick: detach yourself from taking it personal. I basically said, "Take your time and grieve for a few weeks. Spend time with your family and those you love. Re-evaluate your life and what is most important and dear to you. Then begin to move in that direction. Use this as a fresh start; a new lease on life. Turn bad into good. But, don't take this so personally. You're a good man, you're a good husband and father. You made a mistake. It's OK. But whether it's right now, or in a couple weeks, or in a month, at some point you will want to put it behind you and realize that it's now a part of your past. For the sake of your family and your own sanity, you'll want to begin looking forward so that you can be productive again."

And he'd just say, "Yeah, I just don't know."

What else can I do here NF's to be there for this family?

You can only listen. Don't try to fix it or even offer advice right now. He won't hear you. I agree he has to look at this as a business thing, not personal but that is almost impossible for them to do, at least at first.

I am very VERY guilty of wanting to fix every single thing that ever upset my ENFJ. To me, I only wanted to protect him and see to his happiness. It was my job. Oh...this was a bad move, even though it was such an overwhelming desire for me. Outside of my children, I never wanted to protect anyone else. Later on he said - I don't wish to label things I say as FYI this is only a vent. And you have to stop bringing people to me on their knees to beg for mercy like a mercenary I hired without me ever having asked you to because you think they upset me.

hehe that was really true too. So just listen and be there. Help him rewrite his resume, send jobs he may be qualified for..ect. He will be grateful for your friendship.

 

[Glycerine]

I have a strong feeling that he is going to poo poo anyone's suggestions until he's good and ready regardless whether it's his wife or INTPness. Sometimes, it's actually easier to listen to people that are not as close to you. I am basing this off the interactions between me (eNFJ) and my INFP confidante.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I agree with just listening, and maybe be a fun distraction, a positive aspect in an otherwise difficult life period. The thing with INFx types is we often know what we need to do, so being told what we should/could do feels a bit condescending & it's just not necessary. Getting over the feelings is the real hurdle, and no one can force you over it until you're ready (it's like telling someone to just get up & run when they've broken their leg; it's gotta heal first).

Personally, I do like to be told my feelings are valid and/or that I am capable of solving my problems. Sometimes I know what I need to do, but I don't feel able, and it's the lack of confidence & the fear that is stopping me. I can have my perspective reframed by outside input also, which can then affect how I evaluate something, but the shift in what I see as important has to be my own (it's a matter of FiNe here). For example, don't tell me that something is not so bad at it seems, because "bad" is my evaluation of it. Instead, put it in a context (and NOT by comparing it to starving children in Africa or something equally irrelevant - the "other people have it worse" argument), by pointing out possible good options available, what good came out of something that has happened, etc. Let's say I lost my job, then telling me I have X years of good experience that will prove useful for getting a new, possibly better job, is a good thing to hear. Even if I know it, it reaffirms the real context for me, which I may distort into "hopelessness" when I'm down. Telling me losing my job is not such a big deal in the long run is not something I'd like to hear though, as it trivializes my feeling.

My INFJ doesn't like advice when he knows what to do either, but he especially doesn't like anyone to reframe his perspective for him (I think being Ni-dom, perception turned inward, only he can do that for himself). Sometimes reminding him of what has value & what does not helps (whereas that can be a bad method to use with me), because a Fe type often likes consensus/feedback on what is important. It's not about defining for them what is important, but reinforcing what they've expressed in the past or how something meets or doesn't meet a value they've communicated to you before. Reaffirming he made a good decision is helpful, but in regards to your friend, if you think it was a mistake & cannot do this, then stay quiet there. What's done & done, and if it proves bad in the long run, then he'll learn the lesson. If you do not regard his action as a total mistake, or not totally at odds with his family responsibility, then focus on that angle with whatever feedback you give. For example, you could point out he has set an ethical example for his children, which is as important for a parent as providing materially. This can help him to reconcile two values, see how he upheld both in some capacity, when he felt he chose the wrong one (the work issue over family).

Right now he also probably needs to know he is capable of making a move that is good for his family, that fixes the problem before him now. He may know how to do it, but he likely feels immobilized by fear & self-doubt. When he vents, just telling him you know he'll work it out is more than enough. It seems like you're doing a lot of this already, so patience & time is really the key.

 

[Thalassa]

I keep looking at this thread in ispy and seeing "Controlling an NF" lol

 

[Elfboy]

I've recently become really good friends with an INFJ. His wife is also an NF of some sort in my estimation. We've had some really good conversations and become very good friends in a relatively short amount of time. He lost his job recently for trying to be ethical and "blowing the whistle" on something he knew was going on in the workplace and he got shown the door in short order.

I spent a good amount of time consoling him. He's really taking it hard, saying things like, "I'm not a good father because I didn't consider my children's welfare before blowing the whistle. I just pictured myself as the 'white knight' who was doing the right thing and now I'm nothing but a jobless father who didn't put his kids first." Or, "They'd all probably be better off without me."

I mean, hours and hours of "I can't believe how stupid I am." I totally feel for him and want to be there as much as I can, but anything I say he just reverts back to "how stupid he is and he can't believe what he did".

I'm obviously not going to snap him out of it by encouraging him, so what is the best thing a friend can do here? Just continue to listen? I told him to give me a call anytime or e-mail me if he needs support and he said he'd surely take me up on that.

Is it just one of those things that will take time for him to come to grips with? Can NF's (or INFJ's) get into a self-condemning loop where they talk and think poorly of themselves?

At first I tried to just listen, understand, encourage, support, and build him up. But, after seeing that it seemingly wasn't helping, I tried to teach him an NT trick: detach yourself from taking it personal. I basically said, "Take your time and grieve for a few weeks. Spend time with your family and those you love. Re-evaluate your life and what is most important and dear to you. Then begin to move in that direction. Use this as a fresh start; a new lease on life. Turn bad into good. But, don't take this so personally. You're a good man, you're a good husband and father. You made a mistake. It's OK. But whether it's right now, or in a couple weeks, or in a month, at some point you will want to put it behind you and realize that it's now a part of your past. For the sake of your family and your own sanity, you'll want to begin looking forward so that you can be productive again."

And he'd just say, "Yeah, I just don't know."

What else can I do here NF's to be there for this family?

your friend is INFP, not INFJ

 

[SilkRoad]

This is a really interesting thread for me on a few levels - people have already made some great comments. My dad is, I am pretty sure, either an INFJ or an ISFJ, and quite similar to me in temperament. At the end of last year he lost a voluntary position partly because he raised an ethical issue (and partly because he lost his temper, but that shouldn't have been a critical factor, and everyone in my family is quite unhappy and even angry about how he was treated.) I didn't discuss it at much depth with him - he did that more with my mom and with a couple of friends who understand the situation or have a view into it - but he did say to me that a mutual friend had told him to try to be like a duck (ie. water off the back!) but he isn't really able to do that because he takes things to heart and feels wounded. I completely know how that feels. I also think that he was caught between feeling unfairly treated because he'd raised an ethical issue, being treated with disrespect (which he definitely was) and feeling he'd handled things badly (ie. losing his temper.)

Anyway...I haven't personally as a INFJ faced a situation quite like that, but the comments already have been great. I'd agree with just being there for him, and listening to him vent if he needs to although it may be frustrating for you. It can take a long, long time for us to not take things personally. So in a way that advice is good - at least I would accept it as such - but you really have to be careful to not force it on him at all.

The whole venting/listening thing can be good too. Sometimes I get to the point where I'm embarrassed venting about things any more, I feel like a ridiculous obsessive, but I kind of still want to talk about it. If he gets to a point where he doesn't bring it up you could just ask if he's feeling better about it, or something like that. He might want to talk about it some more in that case, or he might say "yeah, I don't want to discuss it any more, I've pretty much dealt with it" - then you just have to leave it.

It's also true what Glycerine said about the Ni black hole. I think it's a balancing act because we might genuinely need to vent but there's a danger of going on and on forever with all those Ni ramifications, and a listener could exacerbate that especially if they offer a lot of comments and perspectives on how the situation played out. I think at the end of the day it is really down to the INFJ to break that pattern. It's hellishly difficult for me, but after a long painful period of time which seems almost inevitable, I get to a point where painful thoughts still intrude a lot (sometimes it feels like all the time) but I can force them away to a certain extent with positive thoughts, things that make me feel better, etc and then the painful thoughts gradually become less of an ingrained negative habit.

 

[Billy]

He has to go through the membrane of time and feeling... he will eventually recapture his energy, but for now he has to go through the motions. Just be sympathetic and help him look for jobs, I always feel better when my NT or S friends put their practicality into use, life doesn't suck so bad when you feel like you have allies in rebuilding it.

 

[SilkRoad]

He has to go through the membrane of time and feeling... he will eventually recapture his energy, but for now he has to go through the motions. Just be sympathetic and help him look for jobs, I always feel better when my NT or S friends put their practicality into use, life doesn't suck so bad when you feel like you have allies in rebuilding it.

Yes, this is very good...don't tell him he needs to "get over it" or "move on" or "what's the point of having feelings like that", but some practical help as well as a listening ear would be fab.

 

[INTPness]

Edit: What not to do: disappear on him.

No, I definitely wouldn't disappear altogether. That wouldn't make for a very good friend. Sometimes life beckons and you have to cut way back on the amount of time you can put into a friendship though, in order that you may constructively get other things done. I know for me, when I first meet interesting new friends, it's exciting and I spend a lot of time with them, but then you have to get back into your routine. I've spent considerable time with him and his family the last couple weeks and I'm not sure I can keep up that pace forever. He may resent me for it, I don't know, but I'd hope he'd be understanding of such things - that I can't be there all the time or every single day. I'd imagine that if he valued me and my friendship at all that he certainly would understand. That he wouldn't place value on me as a friend based on the quantity of hours I spend at his house. I just simply want to be there for him and his family as much as I'm able to. As an individual, that's all I can really do. I sometimes can't do what others think I can do or what they want me to do, I can only do what I can do. He's an INxx - I'm hoping he'll appreciate the time that we are able to hang out - maybe I'll take him jet skiing or some crazy thing to snap him out of the heaviness of it all.

I keep looking at this thread in ispy and seeing "Controlling an NF" lol

That's my next thread.

your friend is INFP, not INFJ

Nope. You've spent exactly ZERO minutes with him. How would you even come to such a conclusion? That's silly. He displays virtually no Ne, with lots of Fe.

 

[INTPness]

He has to go through the membrane of time and feeling... he will eventually recapture his energy, but for now he has to go through the motions. Just be sympathetic and help him look for jobs, I always feel better when my NT or S friends put their practicality into use, life doesn't suck so bad when you feel like you have allies in rebuilding it.

Yes, this is very good...don't tell him he needs to "get over it" or "move on" or "what's the point of having feelings like that", but some practical help as well as a listening ear would be fab.

I see. Less "do this" and "do that". More listening and forwarding job postings to him. Good info. Thanks.

 

[Billy]

I see. Less "do this" and "do that". More listening and forwarding job postings to him. Good info. Thanks.

Yes precisely, and he will be extra touched if the jobs you forward to him play to his ideals and strengths, he will feel like you know him... NFs need to feel understood.

 

[Elfboy]

I see. Less "do this" and "do that". More listening and forwarding job postings to him. Good info. Thanks.

"I'm not a good father because I didn't consider my children's welfare before blowing the whistle. I just pictured myself as the 'white knight' who was doing the right thing and now I'm nothing but a jobless father who didn't put his kids first."

this quote screams Fi like an operatic soprano

 

[INTPness]

this quote screams Fi like an operatic soprano

OK, I'm going to concede. You win Elfboy. INFP it is. How would you go about consoling an INFP then?

 

[Elfboy]

OK, I'm going to concede. You win Elfboy. INFP it is. How would you go about consoling an INFP then?

he just needs someone to tell him about his good qualities and tell him that he did what he thought was right. perhaps you could try saying things like
- you did what you thought was best, no one things any less of you
- okay, you messed up, who doesn't every once in a while, but you have other strengths. you are strong and courageous and not afraid to do what's right. you will find another job and until then, your strength is going to get you through this
- you had to make a choice. there were consequences for either decision. it may not have turned out the way you wanted, but at least you did something. that takes guts
- to make mistakes is to be human. you've acknowledged your mistakes and are doing your best to make amends for them. you have no reason to feel guilty
- you are a great husband, a wonderful father and a man of integrity. you have nothing to be ashamed of

PS: I know as an INTP it may be uncomfortable saying things that sound so mushy and F-ish, but any encouragement you can give will really help him
this is also a period in his life where he is going to need lots of intimacy, but you may not be the right person to give it to him.

 

[Anew Leaf]

It really doesn't matter which NF he is... I think the fact that he has a good friend who is willing to listen, idea generate, and be there for him is enough for just about anyone.

I think the water skiing idea is fabulous. It will give him a day outdoors enjoying the weather, and a physical activity to help give him a mental break from what he is thinking about.

I don't know if it would help at all... But perhaps even trying to put a positive spin in the fact that he did stand up for a principle. This world so quickly wants us to put physical comfort above anything higher. I know that it's extra tricky with a wife and kids involved, but he should still know he's a great father/role model because he didn't compromise.

I had a summer job after highschool where I was witness to some sexual harassment against a friend of mine. I spoke up and almost got the two men I worked with fired. It was at the company that my dad also worked for, so when my mom found out about what I had done, she got mad at me saying this could reflect badly on my dad. I in turn felt horrible and extra conflicted. I ended up getting threatened by the ex-marine I worked with, and didn't say anything to anyone because I felt like I had done something wrong. So I look back on the episode and think that it would have been nice to have someone agree with me on what I did. I don't know if that helps you at all though.

And lastly, if your friend seemed like an INFJ before this major stress occurred then he probably is an INFJ.