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[MBTI General] Lies, forgiveness and trust

Moxiest

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Jul 29, 2011
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I found out last week that one of my friends had been lying to me. THis REALLY bugs me... and it stinks, because since childhood, she has been one of my closest friends. I confronted her about it, and she was all "well, I'm not doing it anymore, please forgive me, I still see our friendship the same way blah blah blah" But, really, I cannot find it in me to trust her again.... and the really odd thing is, how hard it is for me to forgive her. I am incapable of seeing our friendship the same way.....

The feelings are mixed. I am very sad to lose a friend, but know I cannot trust her again. There is no going back. What she did can't be undone.... what frustrates me even more is, she doesn't seem to understand the fullness of what she has done... or maybe she doesn't really even care. That really hurts... but not bad enough for me to try and compensate for her shortcomings. No, I cannot and will not make an excuse for her. What she did was wrong...... it's just SO hard to let go. :cry:
 

Wanderer

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Feb 28, 2011
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Sadly, I can empathize. It's difficult to establish trust with me, and I've learned to forgive small breaches of trust so that I can function and maintain friendships.

That being said, if someone I trust knowingly violates that trust on something important, I'll never look at them the same way afterwards. My view has always been if you do it once, you'll do it again. I don't know if this is a trait peculiar to INFJ's, but since we do feel so very deeply it is difficult to try to continue being friends after that trust has been violated.

I have an idea of exactly how much this sucks though, and I'm sorry :p

Have you considered if you may be overreacting?
 

Santosha

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Not saying it is okay to ever lie or erode trust, but was what she did THAT bad? Like, how are you determining how bad it is. Was it a white lie? A huge lie? Are you allowing it to affect you more than is reasonable? (Not saying this is the case.. but It takes alot for me to write someone off. I have to be basically convinced that there is no, zero, zip value maintaining any level of friendship, and most people I become very close friends with just aren't capeable of that)..
 

Moxiest

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Sadly, I can empathize. It's difficult to establish trust with me, and I've learned to forgive small breaches of trust so that I can function and maintain friendships.

That being said, if someone I trust knowingly violates that trust on something important, I'll never look at them the same way afterwards. My view has always been if you do it once, you'll do it again. I don't know if this is a trait peculiar to INFJ's, but since we do feel so very deeply it is difficult to try to continue being friends after that trust has been violated.

I have an idea of exactly how much this sucks though, and I'm sorry :p

Have you considered if you may be overreacting?

I didn't say we couldn't be friends anymore.... I just know that we won't be able to be the same kind of friends. No more divulging every thought and secret, I have your back no matter what, whatever it is, we're in this together sort of friends. Not because of retrieval on my end of anything but trust.... but those kinds of friends have a very high level of trust for/with each other.... does this make sense? :(
 

Moxiest

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Not saying it is okay to ever lie or erode trust, but was what she did THAT bad? Like, how are you determining how bad it is. Was it a white lie? A huge lie? Are you allowing it to affect you more than is reasonable? (Not saying this is the case.. but It takes alot for me to write someone off. I have to be basically convinced that there is no, zero, zip value maintaining any level of friendship, and most people I become very close friends with just aren't capeable of that)..

I certainly didn't think this friend was capable of this.... It was just a very bad, very hurtful, betrayal of my trust.... with alot of going behind my back over the period of about a year or so kind of dishonesty. I thought so highly of her..... it's odd how when you really love someone, you have the hardest time believing the bad about them. If someone had TOLD me she had lied to me, I wouldn't have believed it.... but I actually saw it with my own eyes. I can't walk away from the truth that my friend lied to me.... mulitple times! It hurts very deeply... I would like to think I was overreacting...... but, no, it was a really awful bunch of lies. It isn't possible to have the same level of trust with her, now that I know she lied to me.... and seemed to be ok with it.
 

Moxiest

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So, I guess I am wondering.......

How do I draw this line, stick to it, and ensure my own feelings are now protected against being betrayed like this again? ...I hate so much that I even have to draw it... I know it is necessary, but hate that this is the reality of things......
 

sciski

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Sorry that you're going through this. Betrayal from a trusted and loved friend hurts like nothing else.

It sounds as if your discovery was very recent, so right now the wound is very raw... maybe give it some time. There are trustworthy people out there, but you have had the misfortune to place your trust in the wrong person. Sometimes friends can make mistakes that hurt us, but this sounds like a long-term betrayal, and her apparent lack of remorse is also worrying.

I've had my trust broken by two very good (I thought) friends. One didn't express remorse at the time, but later came to realise what she'd done to hurt me and seemed genuinely remorseful. I would like to be friends with her again, though it will take time to rebuild. The other has never expressed any remorse, and I maintain a verrrrry superficial and distant 'friendship' with her, and am quietly stepping out of her life. She doesn't actually seem to care either (though she talks the talk about us being such 'good friends'), so that helps relieve the guilt. It's better not to have someone like her in my life--and if your friend proves similar, you will be surprised at the perspective that distance brings, and surprised at all the little things you overlooked that were telling you that this person never really deserved your trust at all. It's all a learning experience. Our relationships with others will never be perfectly smooth, but we can learn from them.
 

jimrckhnd

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Jul 16, 2011
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447
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INTP
Trust to me is a basic. I don't mind being not told - not everything is my business - but actively lied to? There has to extraordinary circumstances for me to forgive that. I extend total trust to those whom I consider friends and betrayal of that trust is a mortal sin in my world.

If for no other reason than most often when I have been lied to I have previously deduced the truth… and when I have presented that truth I have had it and my thought process negated by a lie I often, at first, accept. I can spend days and weeks trying to figure out where my logic went wrong.

A lie very often strikes at the root of friendship but often is a blow at who I am – making me doubt the very essence of what I am.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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So, I guess I am wondering.......

How do I draw this line, stick to it, and ensure my own feelings are now protected against being betrayed like this again? ...I hate so much that I even have to draw it... I know it is necessary, but hate that this is the reality of things......

I really, really hate writing people off too (even if only in degrees- sometimes I stay in contact but can’t consider them close). This thread (link here) might be helpful.

With me- it never really feels like a choice. When I get a negative shock from someone close to me- I just feel confused for a while at first and inevitably a new ‘line’ that seems fairest surfaces on its own. The longer I knew the person, the longer that period of confusion lasts- and sometimes I try to force a peaceful conclusion because I want the person back and I assume I’ll get over it, only to find out later that something inside me is just too resistant to it. My point is that finding a new ‘line’ takes time and grieving over the initial loss is unavoidable- it’s just going to feel bad for a while, no matter how you decide to handle it. But after a while the grieving gets better and eventually goes away.

@ the bolded, because I’m not sure if it’s in reference to the person in the op: I think the crux is that trust lost needs to be earned back- it can’t be a decision, it has to be a series of experiences that proves the person gets what they did was hurtful and they won’t do it again. Damaged friendships need to be stuck in that sort of purgatory for a while if the person wants to earn the trust back. I think- in order to protect your own feelings- it’s important to keep this in mind while trying to impose some temporary ‘line’ (until a resolution that seems best emerges on its own). If a person gets impatient with it- or manipulative (like trying to make the ‘purgatory’ look vindictive- when it’s really just a necessary part of earning trust back)- that’s indication they don’t realize how hurtful their behavior was. Just remember the other person brought the ‘purgatory’ upon themselves, and their behavior/attitude during this period will pretty much determine where the ‘line’ ends up.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
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I found out last week that one of my friends had been lying to me. THis REALLY bugs me... and it stinks, because since childhood, she has been one of my closest friends. I confronted her about it, and she was all "well, I'm not doing it anymore, please forgive me, I still see our friendship the same way blah blah blah" But, really, I cannot find it in me to trust her again.... and the really odd thing is, how hard it is for me to forgive her. I am incapable of seeing our friendship the same way.....
With that sort of half-assed apology I'm not surprised you're having trouble forgiving her. It doesn't seem like she fully appreciates what you're feeling and lacks any sort of humility. Its kind of a "I'm sorry I got caught" or a "Its in the past, just get over it." sort of thing. I would make it clear that this isn't good enough. She needs to properly acknowledge she's done wrong and ask for a second chance; she should genuinely apologise for her actions and seek your forgiveness, and not expect it from you. Basically the two of you can't move past it all, until the hurt itself, and the causes of it, have been sufficiently addressed.

My sister's boyfriend cheated on her and she forgave him without this step. He said over and over how much he loved her, and wanted to be with her, but he never properly apologised. He wouldn't openly acknowledge that he did wrong and that he needed to change his behaviour in future - which to me was a major danger sign. She was so in love with him and wanted to forgive him so much that she did. You can guess what happened. A few months afterward he did it again.
 

Moxiest

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Sorry that you're going through this. Betrayal from a trusted and loved friend hurts like nothing else.

It sounds as if your discovery was very recent, so right now the wound is very raw... maybe give it some time. There are trustworthy people out there, but you have had the misfortune to place your trust in the wrong person. Sometimes friends can make mistakes that hurt us, but this sounds like a long-term betrayal, and her apparent lack of remorse is also worrying.

I've had my trust broken by two very good (I thought) friends. One didn't express remorse at the time, but later came to realise what she'd done to hurt me and seemed genuinely remorseful. I would like to be friends with her again, though it will take time to rebuild. The other has never expressed any remorse, and I maintain a verrrrry superficial and distant 'friendship' with her, and am quietly stepping out of her life. She doesn't actually seem to care either (though she talks the talk about us being such 'good friends'), so that helps relieve the guilt. It's better not to have someone like her in my life--and if your friend proves similar, you will be surprised at the perspective that distance brings, and surprised at all the little things you overlooked that were telling you that this person never really deserved your trust at all. It's all a learning experience. Our relationships with others will never be perfectly smooth, but we can learn from them.

Yes, the apparent lack of remorse is probably the worst part..... sorry to hear this sort of thing happened to you as well! :(
 

Moxiest

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I really, really hate writing people off too (even if only in degrees- sometimes I stay in contact but can’t consider them close). This thread (link here) might be helpful.

With me- it never really feels like a choice. When I get a negative shock from someone close to me- I just feel confused for a while at first and inevitably a new ‘line’ that seems fairest surfaces on its own. The longer I knew the person, the longer that period of confusion lasts- and sometimes I try to force a peaceful conclusion because I want the person back and I assume I’ll get over it, only to find out later that something inside me is just too resistant to it. My point is that finding a new ‘line’ takes time and grieving over the initial loss is unavoidable- it’s just going to feel bad for a while, no matter how you decide to handle it. But after a while the grieving gets better and eventually goes away.

@ the bolded, because I’m not sure if it’s in reference to the person in the op: I think the crux is that trust lost needs to be earned back- it can’t be a decision, it has to be a series of experiences that proves the person gets what they did was hurtful and they won’t do it again. Damaged friendships need to be stuck in that sort of purgatory for a while if the person wants to earn the trust back. I think- in order to protect your own feelings- it’s important to keep this in mind while trying to impose some temporary ‘line’ (until a resolution that seems best emerges on its own). If a person gets impatient with it- or manipulative (like trying to make the ‘purgatory’ look vindictive- when it’s really just a necessary part of earning trust back)- that’s indication they don’t realize how hurtful their behavior was. Just remember the other person brought the ‘purgatory’ upon themselves, and their behavior/attitude during this period will pretty much determine where the ‘line’ ends up.

This is VERY insightful. Thank you for the link, I'll check it out :)
 

Moxiest

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With that sort of half-assed apology I'm not surprised you're having trouble forgiving her. It doesn't seem like she fully appreciates what you're feeling and lacks any sort of humility. Its kind of a "I'm sorry I got caught" or a "Its in the past, just get over it." sort of thing. I would make it clear that this isn't good enough. She needs to properly acknowledge she's done wrong and ask for a second chance; she should genuinely apologise for her actions and seek your forgiveness, and not expect it from you. Basically the two of you can't move past it all, until the hurt itself, and the causes of it, have been sufficiently addressed.

My sister's boyfriend cheated on her and she forgave him without this step. He said over and over how much he loved her, and wanted to be with her, but he never properly apologised. He wouldn't openly acknowledge that he did wrong and that he needed to change his behaviour in future - which to me was a major danger sign. She was so in love with him and wanted to forgive him so much that she did. You can guess what happened. A few months afterward he did it again.

YES! I have no evidence that she won't continue to lie to me in the future, and this is why that line MUST be drawn. IF she makes an attempt at earning back that trust, I am willing to possibly move that line... but I'm just not positive how trusting I will be able to be of this friend in the future.......... Sorry to hear about your sister! :(
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
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Dec 22, 2008
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YES! I have no evidence that she won't continue to lie to me in the future, and this is why that line MUST be drawn. IF she makes an attempt at earning back that trust, I am willing to possibly move that line... but I'm just not positive how trusting I will be able to be of this friend in the future.......... Sorry to hear about your sister! :(
I don't want take what I said to mean people can't change or that trust is irreparable. Maybe your friend doesn't realise what a big deal it is or that you think she's failing to take your position seriously. She may even feel really guilty about it but is struggling to apologise or is too embarrassed to convey how much she regrets it. If you do want to give the relationship another go, perhaps you could trying expressing openly to her how much it hurt you and that you fear you can no longer trust her. Give her the opportunity to act with full knowledge of all the relevant facts and feelings. You don't want to give up on her just because of a possible miscommunication or misunderstanding. And if you are both open, what is said might help to resolve some of the internal conflict you're feeling.
 

Crescent Fresh

Diving into Ni-space
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Mar 17, 2011
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I can't speak for most other INFJs, but betrayal is a big deal for me. I am sure you must be feeling quite overwhelming though you didn't specifically mention what the trouble is--though I can feel what you're experiencing right now.

I am the type who can forgive easily, but not really forget. If you feel the toxic element is just too deep, then you might really want to re-consider if you should maintain a good relationship with her.

Personally, I would just distance myself and to give both of us a time to think things over. If you really consider her as someone really important, at one point.
 

Moxiest

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I can't speak for most other INFJs, but betrayal is a big deal for me. I am sure you must be feeling quite overwhelming though you didn't specifically mention what the trouble is--though I can feel what you're experiencing right now.

I am the type who can forgive easily, but not really forget. If you feel the toxic element is just too deep, then you might really want to re-consider if you should maintain a good relationship with her.

Personally, I would just distance myself and to give both of us a time to think things over. If you really consider her as someone really important, at one point.

Oh yeah, it hurt like heck. I don't think I will ever be able to see this friend in the same light again... and that realization is very hard to come to terms with... I loved her like she was my own sister... very close friendship. Kind of friendship I would have rather died than to have betrayed... I guess I kindof thought she had the same sort of idea towards the friendship.... maybe that's why the betrayal hurt so bad... :/
 

Moxiest

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I don't want take what I said to mean people can't change or that trust is irreparable. Maybe your friend doesn't realise what a big deal it is or that you think she's failing to take your position seriously. She may even feel really guilty about it but is struggling to apologise or is too embarrassed to convey how much she regrets it. If you do want to give the relationship another go, perhaps you could trying expressing openly to her how much it hurt you and that you fear you can no longer trust her. Give her the opportunity to act with full knowledge of all the relevant facts and feelings. You don't want to give up on her just because of a possible miscommunication or misunderstanding. And if you are both open, what is said might help to resolve some of the internal conflict you're feeling.


I really did do this. The letter where I told her what happened, I told her how hurt I was (in detail) by her betrayal of my trust. I am hoping this will get better.... but know I cannot see her the same as I once did. IT just won't ever happen :/
 

Moxiest

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I just reread this thread, and wanted to thank everyone that took the time to respond to it. My friend and I are on speaking terms, I have forgiven her, but now know she is not all of what I had truly thought her to be. Thanks for being there for me and all of these responses- it was very kind of all of you!
 

Froody Blue Gem

Necromancing Scapelamb
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I try to forgive and forget but if people cross certain lines with me, I tend to hold onto things and think turbulent thoughts when I share space with those people. It only makes me hold on tighter when people say "can't you just get over it?" Saying stuff like that isn't going to force me to trust you again... :/ I usually will never trust them again if this is the case. I have held grudges for years. I have trouble trusting and when people overstep bounds, it makes me less likely to trust.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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May 31, 2009
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14,497
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I think infjs are slow to let people in all the way to their inner world (or maybe there are few people interested in really knowing what's there), but once the person has consistently been deemed trustworthy, built up some history together, and been given clearance, infjs are less likely to be on the lookout for signs of anything negative, which can be problematic. A person who has unfettered access to an infj's inner world can do significant damage and also really shake their sense of faith in people if at some point later, they prove to be less trustworthy or honest than previously thought.
 
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