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  1. #101
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Jun 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Then maybe I'm unnatural since it would mean for me to have to bend to external pressures of what's considered universally attractive. Consider men and women who are addicted to cosmetic surgery to appeal to many. Consider people who lose their sense of self, to appeal to many. So counterproductive as a whole when all it takes is to shift perception to the realistic even if it feels brutal to self. It's really okay to only be attractive to some. Really!
    I agree. I mean, how many people do you really want to be in a relationship with? I just need to be attractive to one person. If I were attractive to a lot of people, that might stroke my ego, but it is otherwise useless.

  2. #102
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Oct 2009


    My dad is an ENTJ, he was always a "macho guy" so I knew what to look like if I didn't want people to ask questions all my life, he used to try and make me feel awkward about my more sensitive proclivities like being kind and nurturing and doing things he considered girly, I just turned to doing them in secret while at the same time trying to please him by playing sports which was filled with even douchier "macho guys" I wear masculinity like a costume when I need to look a certain way, inside I would say I am pretty androgynous.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #103
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Nov 2008
    5w4 sx/sp
    SLI None


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Firstly, no one can pressure anyone to do anything unless they have some form of coercive power to do so. And social pressure isn't necessarily coercive unless someone allows it to be.

    As for both those lists, they're all fine to me as long as they're within reason and as long as they have lots of sex solely with me, that's also a positive. But I do have to take exception to the usage of disgusting and muscles. Perhaps muscles are disgusting to you but they're pretty hot to me and something that men build far easier than women due to their naturally manifesting levels of testosterone. When a man can pick you up effortlessly, as a woman this resonates within me as HOT!

    Now how much of this has anything to do with the opening post, I have no idea. Suffice to say, all the traits listed can be traits than any man can have, regardless of type. It appears to me Elfboy that you're just stating your personal preferences in men, instead of addressing the topic.
    nothing of the sort, I was stating qualities that are collectively beneficial for a society to encourage
    PS: agreed, lots of sex is good I worded that terribly. I suppose what I meant was being a man whore is sort of encouraged
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
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  4. #104


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    And yet you're an F man where F stands for fan club!

    This reminded me of an old article I read by... I think it was the guy from Wired magazine, Kevin Kelly? Anyway, he reckoned you only need 1000 fans to be successful. Your post reminded me of that which got me wondering how many people need to find you attractive before you feel that way. I'd say there are less than a hundred people that have come out and say they find me attractive in my lifetime. Probably way under that. I still feel like I have something to offer.

    How many do you really need? Like the other poster said even one is probably enough, if it is strong enough. But, the more the merrier, you can't appeal to everybody though. You'd need to become too bland to have that kind of broad appeal and end up attractive to no one.

    With this masculine/feminine thing I think it is balance and adaptability that are key. The right response in the right amount to the situation, easier said than done, but there you have it.

  5. #105
    Anew Leaf


    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    They boil down to the same thing, in the end. If someone truly accepted the feminine aspect of their personality, why would they be bothered if some people rejected it? Since he loved that part of himself, he'd be far more inclined to believe that his issues with women involve something *else*, rather then being more feminine than a typical guy.

    I mean… look at gay guys. Some of them are extremely effeminate, yet they often have legions of women that are sexually attracted to them. Any NF man that says his lack of success with women simply involves the feminine aspects of his personality is simply passing the buck.

    By and large, I don’t think NT women have it any easier. They stick out in society just as much, and often have to face the same type of questions us NF men do.

    You seem to be focusing on the “attractiveness” aspect, though. Well, young women generally just have to be physically attractive to draw the attention of men. Their attractiveness isn’t always related to who they are. Sure, she has guys clawing at her, but then they turn around and try to change her into a more typical woman once they win her over. Ever wonder how much that's gotta suck?

    Sensitivity is a strength when it’s a *dimension* to our personality, and a weakness when it defines us. Same goes with this whole femininity business.

    I know that when I would advertise my sensitivity, it never worked for me romantically. Instant friend zone. However, if I was just myself, and let myself be sensitive when a situation called for it without making a big deal about it… well… I know that I’ve attracted a few women that way.
    Nice post. Everything in moderation is key.

    I have an INFP Male friend who is great at this balance. He's super sweet and sensitive and a great listener, but he never comes off as "feminine". He's simply comfortable with who he is and is very low key overall, but will gladly offer his NF services when they are needed. I think his stint with the marines helped him out, as well as his ENFJ wife who is very supportive as well.

    I guess my point is that any man can be extremely attractive if he just simply is who he is. That's the most attractive trait of all. Just be yourself, flaws and amazingness and all.

  6. #106
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    May 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    I noticed one of the common trait from ENFP males are they happened to exhibit their masculinity through being 'overtly' fighty. Typically the choice of languages that they use. Perhaps that's why they tend to enjoy having verbal fights and somewhat got carried over easily.
    I'm not sure what this means exactly, but I don't think I do it much. If someone is initiating it against me maybe I would return it, or maybe I would just give them some subtle indication that I am above their games. Or sometimes not so subtle. I've told coworkers before that I'm not going to have a verbal dick measuring contest with them, which might actually be fighty on its own, so maybe I do that after all. But I don't really know what it means to be overly fighty so I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    For example, I've heard openly from a few ENFPs that they had cried over watching a certain movies of books. It seems they're quite comfortable to express their sensitive emotions.
    Ha... Anyone that knows me very well knows that I try to keep some kind of television show in my rotation that will make me cry about once a week. I need it for some reason. I'm still mad that Breakthrough with Tony Robbins got cancelled. My ISFP coworker says he will cry at those shows too but he avoid them. An ESTJ guy told me he can't related to crying at that stuff at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    I also know quite a few ENFPs didn't take it lightly when people criticize their style of clothes or the way they talk (goofiness, especially).

    So my question to NF male here is that, how do you work on masculinity? Do you find yourself accepting easily or constantly trying to struggle with this?
    I don't care if people criticize my appearance. I only actually care if I think they are doing it to somehow single me out in a group, in which case it isn't actually a comment about my appearance, that just happens to be the medium. I had an ESFJ coworker laugh loudly at my shoes the other day and I thought it was pretty rude, even though I don't care what she thinks about my shoes.

    I don't spend much time thinking about masculinity, not with respect to myself. I guess you could say I just accept whatever level of it I have. I'm just a big sensitive goofball bouncing through life. I don't care about masculinity much, but if I think someone is trying to be excessively masculine as a mask or an act I find it off-putting, just as I would any kind of obvious mask I guess. It probably helps that I'm physically fairly masculine. I'm 6 feet, fairly athletic but heavier now that I've gotten older, and I can grow a beard in about 3 hours and 19 minutes. So I haven't had to deal a lot with feeling like my stature caused people to look down on me or something. I basically just do what I want and act how I want, which is probably best described as goofy, and I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the rest.

  7. #107


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    This I don't understand for three reasons:

    It's assuming that women aren't attracted for what NF males perceive as "feminine" aspects of their personalities.
    It also resonates with a sense of need to be viewed as universally attractive.
    If there are more than a few women in your area who don't you attractive, your chances of finding a mate are reduced. If you find a woman who you find attractive, but she rejects you based on your feminine traits, then obviously your chances of being with her are reduced.

    The resentment is unnecessary, but frequently creeps up on you in a way that's not a far cry from the growing hatred of a school shooter.

    Unfortunately, I would guess that many men, NFs and non NFs, have grown to treat women like shit (do unto others, what has been done to you) as a result.

    It also takes the perspective of being a victim.
    That, it does. Really, it would be a prudent choice to scout around for women who don't mind feminine traits in men. However, some people don't reach that level of awareness because they don't have the tools necessary, or because they become too fixated on their particular love interest.

    Being an ENTJ female, I don't resent men for having their preferences and don't "blame" their reasoning on myself being an NT woman, although that's quite possible but is kind of moot to me. Of the ones who aren't attracted, they have their right to feel that way since attraction isn't something people can control. Quite frankly, the ones who aren't attracted, I don't recall being attracted to and have no interest in being considered universally attractive. As an individual, I exist as me.
    Since you weren't attracted to them, there was no disappointment or sense of loss. Correct?

  8. #108


    What the fuck just happened? Oh well. It looks rather interesting so I'll let it slide this time.

  9. #109


    Jen, I think I may have misunderstood part of your post.


    In any case, there are several traits that could be perceived as feminine for several reasons, most of which are born from "gender roles". Honestly, these things baffle me unless filling a certain role is absolutely crucial to the integrity of the relationship, and more importantly, crucial in establishing ones' competency as an individual. Note, I'm not confining "competency" as any particular trait other than sufficiency, which may follow any desired skill set.

    Here's a list of "feminine" traits that are associated with NFs:

    Emotional honesty


    Nurturing instincts

    (perhaps) non-methodical thinking


    Tendencies to think illogically

    If one chooses to shift their perspective on the issue, then they might see how many of these traits might be advantageous for a man. However, that doesn't change the fact that women are going to have their own tastes, which is usually dictated by the "heart" or the "gut", rather than anything cerebral. Love, acceptance, cooperation, and socialization correspond with the early mammalian brain.

    However, this is of course, a load of garbage if these traits don't hold true for those who identify as NFs. I would not put it past a person that they would use their "NF" status to defeat themselves and blame the other. There is no excuse for this. Women know we're not in the 50's anymore, and to assume otherwise is a kick in the face.

  10. #110
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    4w5 sp/sx


    I didn't read the whole thread, I'll have to come back and do that.. I've got some manly home improvement to.

    On the O.P. I did kind of get a twinge of resentment of the phrase, "How do you work on masculinity?", as if I have to prove myself. I suppose that's really the state of things, people expect certain things from people and life does go a little easier if you conform.

    I've always gravitated towards females when it comes to conversations. This is easier for me because in your average group women seem to talk about more general stuff, and men seem to have some sort of ritual way of communicating, involving sports and women's body parts. I can care less about sports and I care deeply about women's body parts when they're attached to a particular woman that I might happen to like, and it's not really a group discussion topic. I'm generalizing here, but it seems this is some sort of default mode of conversation. As I get older there's politics as a go to subject, something I'm not terribly interested either. Talking to a person one on one is much easier.

    What I'd like to do is just ideally be myself and not have to worry about culturally and perceived delineations of the masculine and feminine. I am in fact male, what else do you need to know? But the fact is, any problem with supposed feminine traits has in the past lied directly with me. I don't remotely look feminine, but not acting within cultural norms and of what might be visually expected of me tends to make people confused and gets negative reactions. I have often been given crap about being able to talk to someone about really nice cast iron cookware, I tend to keep comments about people's clothing choices to myself, I don't often admit in public that I really like romantic comedies. I feel free to say that I've done martial arts, I'm real handy around the house and mention my more masculine hobbies. Making chili is fine, baking cakes is not. I've always resented that.

    Mostly anymore I just say what I want, I think it's more important to just be yourself, and you can connect even better with people that way than conforming to what you think they might want to see. I wish I had figured this out much earlier.

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