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[Fe] Is Fe fake or manipulative?

INTPness

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No, they're feeling both - the internal emotion, and the desire to maintain harmony and order. For them, the feeling of desire to maintain harmony and order is more important than the particular internal emotion. They're being true to themselves.

OK, I can get on board with that. Thanks to all the Fe users for shedding further light on this for me. If anything, this makes me feel more OK when I employ Fe in these situations. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm being fake and maybe I shouldn't beat myself up about it as much. To me personally, it does feel fake sometimes (within myelf).

And the really hard part I have with it is that I've also seen Fe-doms (multiple) do REALLY fake things. Like portray an image of themselves and their family and their households that is in huge contradiction to what is actually going on inside the home/family. On the outside it is very "oh yes, everything is great. My husband is doing really good at work, kids are smart, we just bought a new patio set and we might get a new car soon! Yay!" And inside (reality), it's this: Husband and wife fighting like crazy (at each other's throats), kids are having HUGE problems at school, there was no money to purchase the new patio set/new car, but they did it anyways. Fighting, chaos. Then, the next day when talking to the neighbors, same thing: Oh yeah, everything is good. We're so happy. What???????? To me, that seems fake. It feels fake. And I see it often in Fe-doms. They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.

But, I don't want to argue with you guys further. I do appreciate the constructive conversation. These have just been some of my own experiences and observations with my own Fe and other Fe doms.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.

This.

I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.

How about this? How about the Fe-dom who always wants to portray a really good image to their neighbors (e.g., the "image" that my marriage is perfect, my husband makes a lot of money, our family has everything together, my kids are angels, we have no problems, etc.). I've seen this more than once in Fe-doms and, frankly, it's quite fake. It's fake because I can see how hard they try to portray this image, but in reality, it's a facade - it's a mirage - and you see the truth behind it that sometimes doesn't match up with what they are portraying.

So, I maintain that Fe *can be* fake at times.

And these.

Well played Ti. Well played.
 

Resonance

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They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.
The thing is, you're looking at it from a 'Ti' perspective. The things they say don't match up logically with what's really happening in their lives. But that's completely beside the point. What they are really saying is "I don't want you to worry about us, don't want to burden you with our problems, I like how lighthearted our conversations are because it's an escape from the hell-hole that is my personal life."

It's like What a Wonderful World:
I see friends shakin' hands, sayin' "How do you do?"
They're really saying "I love you"

The semantic content is irrelevant, it's the emotional content that is meaningful to them.
You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.
How does that make any sense at all? Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you're not allowed to help people unless you have no needs of your own?
 

Pan-en-theist

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We've talked about the endearing qualities of Fe, the amity, affiliation and bonding. Does Fe anger and discord have any value?
Anger in the Fe mode is not inherently destructive, is it? I bring this up, because INTPs I have known get uncomfortable around
Fe anger. Yes, they want to talk about the "phoniness" of job interviews and being nice in social contexts, but Fe is a richly textured
function, that includes anger and moral righteousness. INFJs, help me out here, what are some other less well known attributes
of Fe other than social tact, which gets all the typology attention. Perhaps an ENFJ or ESFJ can really enlighten us.
 

Resonance

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We've talked about the endearing qualities of Fe, the amity, affiliation and bonding. Does Fe anger and discord have any value?
Anger in the Fe mode is not inherently destructive, is it? I bring this up, because INTPs I have known get uncomfortable around
Fe anger. Yes, they want to talk about the "phoniness" of job interviews and being nice in social contexts, but Fe is a richly textured
function, that includes anger and moral righteousness. INFJs, help me out here, what are some other less well known attributes
of Fe other than social tact, which gets all the typology attention. Perhaps an ENFJ or ESFJ can really enlighten us.
Anger in the Fe mode is a shared experience. Rabble-rousing, mob mentality, righteous zeal - that's Fe anger. It's impersonal, in the sense that it's not coming from inside one person but from a group. "I am punishing you not because I am angry with you, but because you deserve it."
 

cascadeco

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To discuss Fe. We could just as easily start a thread on the negatives of Ne or Te or Ti, or any of the other functions. I'll leave that to you if you'd like to do that. I see nothing wrong in discussing and learning about Fe. It's through discussion that we learn. That is the point of all of these threads and this entire forum, I would assume.

Yeah, I get that, and I'm all about discussing Fe. But the title of the thread, and nature of it, wasn't initially to 'discuss Fe'. It was to propose how Fe is somehow, by essence of what it is, 'fake'/manipulative. As I said in my first post, yes, it CAN be. Just like any type/function out there.

There seem to be those though who want to place Fe in a more-fake/manipulative-than-any-other-function category, as if it's somehow unique out of all the other functions... and that's were I disagree.
 

Resonance

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Yeah, I get that, and I'm all about discussing Fe. But the title of the thread, and nature of it, wasn't initially to 'discuss Fe'. It was to propose how Fe is somehow, by essence of what it is, 'fake'/manipulative. As I said in my first post, yes, it CAN be. Just like any type/function out there.
To even suggest that it can be implies that it has some essence which can be contravened by its use. All I have seen so far are examples of situations where one is using Fe instead of another function they'd rather be using - not where Fe itself is being 'fake'.
 

cascadeco

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To even suggest that it can be implies that it has some essence which can be contravened by its use. All I have seen so far are examples of situations where one is using Fe instead of another function they'd rather be using - not where Fe itself is being 'fake'.

To clarify, in my initial post I was emphasizing the Manipulative element, because yeah, each and every one of us can try to manipulate in a variety of ways if we choose to - I didn't touch on the 'Fake' element. And.. others have been covering those points pretty well anyway. :)
 

INTPness

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To clarify, in my initial post I was emphasizing the Manipulative element, because yeah, each and every one of us can try to manipulate in a variety of ways if we choose to - I didn't touch on the 'Fake' element. And.. others have been covering those points pretty well anyway. :)

This is good. This shows a lot of self-reflection. Like, "hey, if I'm honest with myself, I've used it to manipulate before." That's all I was trying to say myself in all of this. Instead of trying to say, "Oh no, never used Fe for anything negative. Nope. Not me. Would never do that." No, if we're real, these things happen.
 

onemoretime

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You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.

That would make no sense, because they favor Fe over Fi. Preferring to create harmony and order in others is an integral part of who they are. That preference is the core truth of their personality, not the internal emotion. Rectifying internal disorder may be important, but there are even more important things to do. Do you see what I am saying?

OK, I can get on board with that. Thanks to all the Fe users for shedding further light on this for me. If anything, this makes me feel more OK when I employ Fe in these situations. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm being fake and maybe I shouldn't beat myself up about it as much. To me personally, it does feel fake sometimes (within myelf).

As well it should - it runs in the opposite direction of what your Ti-based ego considers your true self.

And the really hard part I have with it is that I've also seen Fe-doms (multiple) do REALLY fake things. Like portray an image of themselves and their family and their households that is in huge contradiction to what is actually going on inside the home/family. On the outside it is very "oh yes, everything is great. My husband is doing really good at work, kids are smart, we just bought a new patio set and we might get a new car soon! Yay!" And inside (reality), it's this: Husband and wife fighting like crazy (at each other's throats), kids are having HUGE problems at school, there was no money to purchase the new patio set/new car, but they did it anyways. Fighting, chaos. Then, the next day when talking to the neighbors, same thing: Oh yeah, everything is good. We're so happy. What???????? To me, that seems fake. It feels fake. And I see it often in Fe-doms. They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.

Hmm. Hate to be rude, but ever considered that all of that other stuff is none of your business? Everyone's family has got their own crap. However, for many people, that sort of thing stays within the family. You don't have any inherent right to hear about it, nor do they have any inherent duty to inform you of it. In their minds, they truly feel that it's better to portray a stable image, rather than burden others with their troubles.

The problem is that you're assuming that they're doing this for some nefarious purpose, which is why people are pointing out that this has a lot to do with Fe being your inferior function.

But, I don't want to argue with you guys further. I do appreciate the constructive conversation. These have just been some of my own experiences and observations with my own Fe and other Fe doms.

As long as you recognize that your opinion has solely to do with how you yourself experience the function, and nothing to do with how others may experience that function, then I think we understand one another.
 
G

Glycerine

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OK, I can get on board with that. Thanks to all the Fe users for shedding further light on this for me. If anything, this makes me feel more OK when I employ Fe in these situations. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm being fake and maybe I shouldn't beat myself up about it as much. To me personally, it does feel fake sometimes (within myelf).

And the really hard part I have with it is that I've also seen Fe-doms (multiple) do REALLY fake things. Like portray an image of themselves and their family and their households that is in huge contradiction to what is actually going on inside the home/family. On the outside it is very "oh yes, everything is great. My husband is doing really good at work, kids are smart, we just bought a new patio set and we might get a new car soon! Yay!" And inside (reality), it's this: Husband and wife fighting like crazy (at each other's throats), kids are having HUGE problems at school, there was no money to purchase the new patio set/new car, but they did it anyways. Fighting, chaos. Then, the next day when talking to the neighbors, same thing: Oh yeah, everything is good. We're so happy. What???????? To me, that seems fake. It feels fake. And I see it often in Fe-doms. They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.

But, I don't want to argue with you guys further. I do appreciate the constructive conversation. These have just been some of my own experiences and observations with my own Fe and other Fe doms.

I can see what you talking about but couldn't another part of it be, some people just don't want everyone who they are not close with to know the drama in their lives? I wouldn't expect you to tell me about all your personal problems if I asked you "how you were doing?" because of lack of trust and privacy. The people I have noticed that do that type of stuff are people that are usually cracking under a lot of stress and don't have much of an outlet.

On the other hand, those people that you mentioned may be going a little overboard.
 

iwakar

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I think it can be, every time I see someone with strong Fe I wonder why they are trying to be so nice. Furthermore they are always so pushy in promoting their Fe in others.

Functions are not manipulative, behavior can be manipulative because it is an externally-strategized means to an internally-motivated end.

Fe is the devil,:devil: actually probably not the devil maybe Lucifer please and kindly stay away :)

No but I find dom Fe types to be blatantly fake more so than other types, they smile for the sake of smiling as oppose to actually feeling happy. They also use common polite gestures in awkward negative situations.

That's how a typical Fe dom would think, it's evil I tell ya.:horor:

If you feel you need to abide by a social standard by smiling, laughing and making other "positive" gestures when inside you feel the opposite that is a sign of being "fake". I'm not saying one type is better than another here I'm just pointing out the flaws that come out in Fe doms. Also Fe doms can be real for sure especially when you get to know them and they trust you but they can also be "fake" to some degree.

P.S please just use "they" next time so your sentence isn't a mess.

No it has nothing to do with the person and how they feel about themselves, it has to do with how people are viewing that person the message is being sent the wrong way.

P.S: There is more than one Fe user in the world.

I disagree with this as the act is not done in such a way to make the Fe person feel better it's used more as a mask to abide by social norm in such a case. Everyone has their defense mechanisms.

I think the majority do perceive it as acting fake, while the minority don't.

The way I see it Fe dom users are often good at exaggerating their Fe while someone who is more Ti dom may have alot of trouble doing that. Fe isn't faked in the Fe user when that person is legitimate and is showing their "Fe" in a healthy manner. However If the Fe dom user is having a bad day or has ulterior motives they defiantly have that ability to use their Fe in a "fake" manner. This is why Fe users can come across as "fake" because they are quite good at using their Fe even for negative reasons.

All I'm saying is that an Fe dom user has that ability to not be genuine about their Fe, and can use that ability alot easier than other types. Fe isn't fake in it's purest form but the user has the ability more than other MBTI types to use it in a negative context.

You just said that Fe isn't internal? so how can something external be real if it doesn't represent someones internal state?

You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.
^
Nothing about your thread title, initial post, or subsequent replies indicates you were ever open to any opinions other than your own. For me, that ended the thread because it is not a discussion.

Obviously, other people have more stamina than me. I am irritatingly results-oriented.

futility,man,push,rhino-59014f31a2b1759c0d79de4a0e5de457_h.jpg


FTR, I used to have very similar discussions with my 7 year old brother when he'd ask me things like: "SIS, WHO SUCKS MORE??? BARBIE OR RAINBOW BRIGHT?!??!"
 

INTPness

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Hmm. Hate to be rude, but ever considered that all of that other stuff is none of your business?

No, never considered that it wasn't my business because one of them was my own family member, in which I was living in the household and saw the fakery being displayed outside of the house, all the while knowing what was really going on. The other was an ex g/f who did it - so, again, I was a member of the "inner circle" and saw how they portrayed things to people on the outside. It was in total contrast to what was really going on - to the point to where I was like, "Really? Seriously? Things are good? You were just crying 4 hours ago and talking about a divorce or maybe having to sell one of the children for food and now you're talking about how wonderful things are? I just dun get it." :shrug:

As long as you recognize that your opinion has solely to do with how you yourself experience the function, and nothing to do with how others may experience that function, then I think we understand one another.

Sure. I know how it feels to me and I know it when I observe it in others. I have no idea what it's like to be someone else, but I still do observe things and recognize them sometimes as complete stretches of the truth or masquerades, or what have you.
 

cascadeco

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And if a person doesn't like to be made to feel good? Would you still try? Why?

If it's a stranger who responds unfavorably to my questions or approach, and basically rebuffs me and makes it clear they don't want me around, no, I won't still try. I'll leave them be. If it's someone I'm close to, it means I know them well enough to let them be in a bad mood if they're in a bad mood, and just be ok with that, or to try to perk them up if I know they would be open to that sort of thing.
 

INTPness

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I can see what you talking about but couldn't another part of it be, some people just don't want everyone who they are not close with to know the drama in their lives? I wouldn't expect you to tell me about all your personal problems if I asked you "how you were doing?" because of lack of trust and privacy. The people I have noticed that do that type of stuff are people that are usually cracking under a lot of stress and don't have much of an outlet.

Yeah, you don't have to tell people all the bad stuff. But you also don't have to "act" like your life is this perfect little bubble and everything is just brilliant inside the bubble. That's the part that seems fake to me. Why can't we just say, "Well, some things are good, some things could be better. But, enough about me. How are you doing?" You know, just keeping it real instead of like, "Oh yeah, my husband is brilliant. My kids are probably going to grow up and travel to Mars. The dog won 1st place in the dog show. My car has awesome rims. I'm going back to school to get my Ph.D. while still being a housewife and doing everyone's laundry and fixing dinner every night. Oh, and I still find time to watch Oprah every day." It's like, "Come on! Anyone with 2 eyes knows that things aren't THAT freakin' good in your house. The neighbors hear you fighting. They saw you crying out on the front lawn, they saw your car get reposssessed, etc." Like, why fake the funk?
 

Randomnity

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No, never considered that it wasn't my business because one of them was my own family member, in which I was living in the household and saw the fakery being displayed outside of the house, all the while knowing what was really going on. The other was an ex g/f who did it - so, again, I was a member of the "inner circle" and saw how they portrayed things to people on the outside. It was in total contrast to what was really going on - to the point to where I was like, "Really? Seriously? Things are good? You were just crying 4 hours ago and talking about a divorce or maybe having to sell one of the children for food and now you're talking about how wonderful things are? I just dun get it." :shrug:

Wow, way to completely miss the point. The point is that maybe it wasn't the business of the people they were talking to. Whether it's your business is irrelevant to the situation you describe.

Your average neighbour relationship (maybe you say hi when you see them and chitchat for 5 minutes every few weeks) is NOT a good place to dump all your feelings. If I greet my neighbour with "hey! how's it going?" and they say "terrible! I've been crying all day because my cat died and my husband cheated on me" it makes things terribly awkward. And it really isn't their business, either. As an INTP I'm surprised you don't value privacy.

I hope I never live next to someone like you.....:thelook:

edit: to be fair, bragging is pretty stupid/obnoxious especially when unfounded, but really all the time.
 

Sizzling Berry

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If it's a stranger who responds unfavorably to my questions or approach, and basically rebuffs me and makes it clear they don't want me around, no, I won't still try. I'll leave them be. If it's someone I'm close to, it means I know them well enough to let them be in a bad mood if they're in a bad mood, and just be ok with that, or to try to perk them up if I know they would be open to that sort of thing.

And would you try to make a stranger feel good in your company or like you?
 

onemoretime

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No, never considered that it wasn't my business because one of them was my own family member, in which I was living in the household and saw the fakery being displayed outside of the house, all the while knowing what was really going on. The other was an ex g/f who did it - so, again, I was a member of the "inner circle" and saw how they portrayed things to people on the outside. It was in total contrast to what was really going on - to the point to where I was like, "Really? Seriously? Things are good? You were just crying 4 hours ago and talking about a divorce or maybe having to sell one of the children for food and now you're talking about how wonderful things are? I just dun get it." :shrug:

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Point still stands - to them, I'd guess that outwardly expressing the inner drama would only make things worse. This may not particularly be a healthy approach to one's troubles, but it's not necessarily being "fake."

Sure. I know how it feels to me and I know it when I observe it in others. I have no idea what it's like to be someone else, but I still do observe things and recognize them sometimes as complete stretches of the truth or masquerades, or what have you.

What is truth? All you have are your observations. Indeed, everything we present to others is a masquerade, which is why they called it a persona in the first place.
 

INTPness

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Wow, way to completely miss the point. The point is that maybe it wasn't the business of the people they were talking to. Whether it's your business is irrelevant to the situation you describe.

Your average neighbour relationship (maybe you say hi when you see them and chitchat for 5 minutes every few weeks) is NOT a good place to dump all your feelings. If I greet my neighbour with "hey! how's it going?" and they say "terrible! I've been crying all day because my cat died and my husband cheated on me" it makes things terribly awkward. And it really isn't their business, either. As an INTP I'm surprised you don't value privacy.

I hope I never live next to someone like you.....:thelook:

No, I totally get the point. And privacy wasn't even an issue. Here's my point: Why does the Fe-dom tell their neighbors that everything is brilliant when it's not? Why not give a neutral response instead of a "everything is freakin' awesome" - that, to me, is faking the funk. That's all - I didn't miss the point. I get privacy. I never said people need to tell their neighbors everything. that would be silly. What I'm saying is...don't take it to the other extreme and be like, "Oh yeah, my life is an example of perfection" and rant about how everything is just beautiful when it really isn't.
 
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