[Fe] Is Fe fake or manipulative?

[Elfboy]

So one is not allowed to share one's opinion of a discussion? Wow, just wow.

I am not denying the negative aspects of Fe, but it seems you specifically mentions how NFJs are capable of abusing manipulations poorly, I thought I have a right to defend it based on NFJs P.O.V.

Btw, what's mail-mailing? I seem to have troubles understanding your self-created obscure terms.

you've missed my point. I am not against your defense of Fe, my point is that this is a thread pertaining to the negative aspects of Fe, which is why posts are made in criticism of Fe. in fact, I welcome your defense. useful debate requires valif input on both sides

 

[SilkRoad]

The question was "is Fe fake or manipulative"?

It therefore seems more than reasonable that people should present arguments both for and against the idea of it being manipulative, including both negative AND positive aspects of the function...! I don't see that the thread was created specifically to elaborate on the negative aspects of Fe, although that is one aspect of the discussion.

 

[wildcat]

Kind of fake.

It would be hard to demonstrate Thinking without actually Thinking. There must be a degree of subjective judgement.

Further, the thoughts organized by Ti are demonstrable in communication, at the very least. Albeit, they are local to the communicator. An act of demonstrative Fi or Ti neglects the subjective element.

Exactly.
Thank you, Ginkgo.

 

[Resonance]

Fe isn't "fake" ...it just influences and incidentally is influenced.

perfect executive summary.

Tangent:

Do any Ti oriented people see Te as "fake"?

Yes, actually, now that I think about it. I tend to see Te-style debaters as trying to prove or disprove a concept without actually understanding it, so to me it's 'fake' because they're just trying to come to a conclusion. They want me to tell/prove to them why they should accept it, whereas I want to show them what it is and why it's a useful thought-object so that they can draw that conclusion themselves.

exactly, that is usually manipulative.

except, somehow, in the ways that I suggested?

those are the kind of situations where it comes naturally to me.

"Manipulating people" using deception or whatever, that's a lot more difficult and I suspect most Fe-users wouldn't bother trying.

 

[INTPness]

Tangent:

Do any Ti oriented people see Te as "fake"?

I don't see Te as being fake at all. Actually, it's very real - at least relative to some of the other functions. A little bit like a bull in a china shop, but still - at least you know the bull is there - the bull isn't trying to hide.

 

[INTPness]

If you don't think Fe has at least some degree of fakeness in it, just wait until the next time you hear an INTP using his Fe and then ask him "OK, now tell me what you really think?"

Example: If I have a 9am meeting with a group of people, and they make me wait 20 minutes when I have things to do, Ti isn't going to be very happy. But, when they finally call me into my appointment and they say, "So, how's it going?" I will respond with, "It's going good, thanks for asking. How are you guys?" That's Fe. I'm pissed inside, but I'm showing a friendly face.

It's "real" because I genuinely do want to know how they are doing and I genuinely want to focus on the good things of the moment, rather than the bad things. I'd rather have these people as friends and respected colleagues than to not be their friends.

It's "fake" because inside I'm really pissed that they made me wait and they have no regard for my time - but, I don't show that - I only show the Fe part.

This stuff happens all day, every day. I see it as Fe "covering Ti's butt" and smoothing out Ti's rough edges - because Ti is unrelenting and extremely critical of inconsistencies - it notices everything. So, Fe smooths it out. I see my Fe as an asset in light of my Ti. But, yes, it does have an element of fakeness because it covers over what is going on underneath the surface sometimes.

For an Fe-dom, this might not be true. Fe doesn't need to "cover" over anything because it's the lead function. In my case, Ti leads but sometimes Fe needs to be brought in to smooth over the situation - to cover for Ti's weakness or blind spot.

 

[Resonance]

If you don't think Fe has at least some degree of fakeness in it, just wait until the next time you hear an INTP using his Fe and then ask him "OK, now tell me what you really think?"

Example: If I have a 9am meeting with a group of people, and they make me wait 20 minutes when I have things to do, Ti isn't going to be very happy. But, when they finally call me into my appointment and they say, "So, how's it going?" I will respond with, "It's going good, thanks for asking. How are you guys?" That's Fe. I'm pissed inside, but I'm showing a friendly face.

It's "real" because I genuinely do want to know how they are doing and I genuinely want to focus on the good things of the moment, rather than the bad things. I'd rather have these people as friends and respected colleagues than to not be their friends.

It's "fake" because inside I'm really pissed that they made me wait and they have no regard for my time - but, I don't show that - I only show the Fe part.

This stuff happens all day, every day. I see it as Fe "covering Ti's butt" and smoothing out Ti's rough edges - because Ti is unrelenting and extremely critical of inconsistencies - it notices everything. So, Fe smooths it out. I see my Fe as an asset in light of my Ti. But, yes, it does have an element of fakeness because it covers over what is going on underneath the surface sometimes.

For an Fe-dom, this might not be true. Fe doesn't need to "cover" over anything because it's the lead function. In my case, Ti leads but sometimes Fe needs to be brought in to smooth over the situation - to cover for Ti's weakness or blind spot.

So basically what you're saying is "Fe is fake because it doesn't match the output of my other function [Ti]".

That's a bit like saying oranges are fake because they don't look like bananas.

 

[Anew Leaf]

So basically what you're saying is "Fe is fake because it doesn't match the output of my other function [Ti]".

That's a bit like saying oranges are fake because they don't look like bananas.

No, what he is saying is that his real (ti) reaction is that he is annoyed, but he covers it up (fe) with being pleasant.

 

[cascadeco]

I've already stated that ENFPs can be manipulative (I even admitted that I am manipulative), that being said, Fe by it's very nature is manipulative. appealing to someone else's emotions to get them to do something is manipulation

LOL. Because you Fi-ers *never* appeal to others' emotions or emotionally manipulate. lol.

Honestly.. I don't think I'll ever understand those who so strongly dislike any one function. It says way more about the hater than the hatee.

 

[Anew Leaf]

And I can relate to some degree. Sometimes I am feeling extremely emotional (Fi), but the setting may not be appropriate for me to be emotional. So I cover it up with being stoic (Te).

 

[Amargith]

Question for the Fe-crowd..how do you use Fe one-on-one? When there isn't a group goal to uphold? When there isn't a mission to fulfill and a group to direct? How does it work then?



To the previous question what happens when Fi-users come together:

Nothing. Literally, nothing. There's a bunch of laughs and giggles and that's it. No direction, no group mission, nothing. If you're lucky, someone will spontaneously blurt out 'lets do this!'. And if 'this' is something that doesn't require planning and is easily accessible and a shared interest amidst the group or at least neutral to most of the group, it'll work brilliantly and feel like a sitting by a campfire singing kumbaya. If not, it ends in endless bickering or apathy. Sometimes you'll see the group falling apart into groups of two or three. It's easier to use Fi on no more than 4 people at once and ideal one on one. Groups are not our thing.

I have that situation in our group. The two ISFJs don't step up coz they don't wanna rock the boat, the female xNTJ tries to Fe but ends up losing her patience and pulls the group together with Te, making everyone pissed that they have to follow an schedule during their free time, till the INTP steps up and goes, wtf, we're doing this, this way! Yes, the INTP. Of all people. I would do it, and I've tried, but I don't share many of their interests, and the INTP does, so he usually has some feel of what would be a good idea to do, while knowing what we can do and what won't take planning and organization to pull off. It's maddening.

I'll step in when I notice that the conflict is getting too high and too deeply rooted. That's when I take the Fe-dom seat, which fits me really poorly and try my hand at the whole harmonizing bit. Thankfully they know me well enough to usually appreciate the effort. I'll solve the conflict..but I won't be able to give them a mission or a goal. It's like herding cats. Usually, at that point, I end up giving the reigns to the female xNTJ or the INTP again.

We could *really* use an Fe-dom.

 

[cascadeco]

1:1 I want to understand what drives people and who they are. I ask questions, and just want to get to know them. I'm a listener. I spend 95% of my time listening. I build upon commonalities. I don't try to change people, I don't force my opinions on people, and I am even reticent to give advice when asked, simply because I know my suggestion might not apply to them individually. So I'll always add that caveat.

I don't relate to the 'group goal' thing, though, simply because I'm pretty introverted so try to avoid groups anyway. The only element of group-speak I relate to is knowing how to interact with different personalties and building positive relationships accordingly, and I have no need to show my personal emotions/feelings if they have nothing to do with the situation at hand and what needs to be accomplished (in a work setting, for example), or in a group social outing, I'm not going to wax poetic on how bad my day has been if the other 4 people are totally happy. I'm not going to bring them down and ruin the outing just to stay 'true' to my own crappy feelings. I'll stuff my crappy feelings to the best I can, although if asked, I'll be honest and will say it's not been a great day and will elaborate if asked.

 

[Resonance]

No, what he is saying is that his real (ti) reaction is that he is annoyed, but he covers it up (fe) with being pleasant.

That's not fake though, Fe reflects his desire for harmony and smooth relations and 'getting on with it'. Just because Fe doesn't reflect his inner experience doesn't mean it's fake, that's not what it's for.

 

[Amargith]

Wait so you actually build like a mini-Fe group between the two of you based upon commonalities? How does that work? Also, when you help people out and try to inspire them to take action in their lives, what do you use to convince them? Actual personal empowerment, or a shared social standard?

 

[Resonance]

Question for the Fe-crowd..how do you use Fe one-on-one? When there isn't a group goal to uphold? When there isn't a mission to fulfill and a group to direct? How does it work then?

Merging intellectually with the person, basically.

I tend to shift towards using their sentence structure and vocabulary and so on. But subtly, so that I'm not mocking them, just trying to put things in a way that will be familiar to them - so that it will be easy for them to absorb.

Non-native English speakers often compliment me on how easy I am to talk to, for example when I used to work in corporate security, you have to keep your eye on the camera feeds and there's not much to do besides chat.

Wait so you actually build like a mini-Fe group between the two of you based upon commonalities? How does that work? Also, when you help people out and try to inspire them to take action in their lives, what do you use to convince them? Actual personal empowerment, or a shared social standard?

Neither, it's more like a pep talk that appeals to some sort of greater purpose I guess. But yeah it's usually tailored to the person.

 

[Anew Leaf]

That's not fake though, Fe reflects his desire for harmony and smooth relations and 'getting on with it'. Just because Fe doesn't reflect his inner experience doesn't mean it's fake, that's not what it's for.

As someone with Fi, that's how I see it.

 

[cascadeco]

Wait so you actually build like a mini-Fe group between the two of you based upon commonalities? How does that work? Also, when you help people out and try to inspire them to take action in their lives, what do you use to convince them? Actual personal empowerment, or a shared social standard?

For inspiration, I might affirm them, but also encourage/challenge them to try something out, even if it might not work. Because I do believe that most people can do pretty much anything they put their mind to -- it's often just fear, or the unknown, that prevents them. But to at least try.. I might encourage that. Or might show them a different angle, even though they may not be receptive to it. I'll note that I know they may not be interested in checking it out. Basically I have no interest in forcing people into things -- because frankly I don't think that's possible. It has to be from them, from their own volition/awareness, that they WANT to do something. I might try to plant a seed, or encourage, or give various alternatives, and then that' about all I can do. Anything I say is tailored to what I know about them as a person, about their situation, about who they are and what might drive them. They can take it, or leave it. And if they leave it, what can I do? I'm not out there to create mini-versions of Me; I want people to be THEM. And if I don't have enough in common with them, or we're too at odds for a relationship, then it's not a relationship I'll develop.

Also, just share what *I* think and such, not telling them they should think that. Because I really *don't* think they should think that. They're their own person after all. And if they happen to latch onto something I say that helps them out, that's awesome. If my own life/story/experiences provide raw material and they think well, if SHE can do it, I can do it.. then, that too.

Commonalities? Well, if I meet someone who's super into the outdoors/wildlife, conversation/commonalities might be built upon that. If I meet someone who's an engineer, I might then talk about how I started out in engineering, and ask them about that. If I meet someone who's into psychology stuff, obviously convo might take a deeper turn right off the bat. If I'm with the engineer, I'm not going to start talking about shopping at Banana Republic. We're not building any commonalities/connection on that. And so on.

 

[Amargith]

See, resonances response I expected..but cascado, you pretty much described how I do things..and I consider the whole 'respect the person and encourage them to be who they are' very Fi. So it's confusing me a bit. I wonder in *what* way it is that Fe differs from Fi on this front, and what we share.

Maybe it's the approach and the wording?

 

[Xenon]

People who prefer Ti or Fi can easily get annoyed with Fe and see it as "fake". I've come to respect it a lot more by seeing it as a reflection of genuine intentions, a genuine desire to affect the other people/the social environment in a certain way. That doesn't mean I never get annoyed with it, but I don't dismiss it like I used to.

See, resonances response I expected..but cascado, you pretty much described how I do things..and I consider the whole 'respect the person and encourage them to be who they are' very Fi. So it's confusing me a bit. I wonder in *what* way it is that Fe differs from Fi on this front, and what we share.

Maybe it's the approach and the wording?

They often overlap, I think, even though on occasion they can clash and see each other as "missing the point". Same with Ti and Te.

 

[Amargith]

See, but I'm trying to pin down that blindspot and see both perspectives, so work with me here, plz?