[Fe] Irritated with my own lack of Fe

[Santosha]

How do you figure reciprocality is not important in expressing love?

 

[Anew Leaf]

Noooooooooo! Don't feel that way. You guys are just as awesome as Fe users. I guess I know what you mean cuz I sometimes watch ENTJ's and think that my Ti useless. Like - they actually *use it*................with people! *gasp*

Bottom line though is we are who we are. We can learn from other types, but we shouldn't feel like we are less than them. Like, Fe could learn a bit of discretion from Fi. And learn from Fi not to exude so much fakery. We all have our strengths.

Haha! Well, here is some of my thought process on why Fe makes me feel useless at times.

I am trying to think of a new career to get into, and one idea I have is becoming a therapist. I love talking with my friends and family and listening to their problems, helping them brainstorm new ideas, being able to use my empathy for the greater good, etc. But then I start thinking about why INFJs are the stereotypical counselor type, and the Fe-auxness of it all smacks me in the face. I am not confident in my abilities to showcase and sustain a caring facade to people. I don't want to spend years getting my Psy D, loving the whole process... and then discovering 6 months into my new career that I am burned out, and I go on some crazy rampage where I grafiti bridges with sarcastic sayings.

So then I start thinking, ok.... what kind of career would value Fi? And that's when I get stumped.

Help Wanted:

Looking for quiet individual to lead us on an emotional crusade as we enter the 22nd century! Pegasus provided. Inquiries, please email or text because we don't talk on the phone.

Being able to sleep on your bed sans sheets for a week because you are too lazy to make your bed, an added bonus that will yield +200 points to your resume.


Maybe there is a reason INFPs are only 2% of the populace.

I feel like I am being emo/whiny/INFP right now, and I really don't mean to be that way. Fo srs. I think sometimes I just feel handcuffed by myself. Either other people have expectations that I should be more emotional, or it feels impossible to express, etc.

I get your Ti/Te example... and there is sort of a parallel to that. I could be wrong, but from my point of view... I think Fi is a lot more vulnerable to being open than Ti is. If you express your Ti viewpoint, you've thought about X topic in a logical fashion with evidence and a reasoning behind Point A to Point Tau. If I start getting super Fi, I think I am all over the board... Half of my "reasoning" is backed up by "Well, *shrugs* I just feel this is the right answer." Which makes it easy pickings for any Te-user to sit there, frown at me, and start explaining where I have gone wrong. Or I feel the need to express my affection for someone and in my head I think, "Oh god, we have said FAR TOO MUCH! Abort mission! Abort! Abort Code Alpha Mary Sigma Blue Whale!" Meanwhile what I have actually said is something along the lines of "Hey friend, you're a great listener. Thanks for being there for me!" And in my head I think "Oh good gravy! I've said far too much! They are going to think I stalk them!"

Man, I am really rambling today... I better go check on my... stuff.....

 

[INTPness]

Reciprocity isn't necessary for their to be love. Love should simply be expressed. But, if one expresses love and doesn't receive reciprocity, they may start to wonder what's wrong or if the other's person's feelings have changed. It's like an extroverted person going up to someone new at a party and being like, "Hey, how's it going. Nice to meet you, I'm John." And then the other person (an introvert) feels overwhelmed by the extrovert's high energy and just gives a blank stare - like a deer in the headlights. And then the extrovert might wonder "uh oh, did I do something wrong? He doesn't seem excited to meet me. In fact, it doesn't even seem like he wants me around."

So, reciprocity isn't *required* of anyone. But, it's like a way of "responding in kind".

Another way of putting it is if you told a really funny joke and someone just went "oh". It's like, "OK, maybe they don't like my jokes. Maybe they want me to get away from them. Maybe I smell? Maybe...........................???"

 

[INTPness]

Or, if someone sticks out their hand to offer you a handshake, do you respond in kind by shaking their hand...or do you just walk away and say, "I don't want to reciprocate?"

 

[skylights]

i relate to Fe. i don't know what it is, i find that my Fi ends up being a partial simulacrum of Fe at times. i'm good at cards, birthdays, etiquette, stuff like that. i think Te and Si do their part in supporting ENFP attempts at interpersonal relationships.

Te will pick up some of that organizational slack once you get into it.

yep.

i don't think that description is necessarily a great one of Fe, though. the way i understand Fe is as focusing on the relationships between people, as opposed to on the people themselves. Fe users understand personal transactions and interpersonal communication, they understand where people stand with others and how one should appropriately behave with another person of a certain classification (friend/ close friend / mentor / etc.) this is what i go to my Fe dom mom or bff for all the time - i have trouble understanding how to properly relate to people that i can't be 1-on-1 with. like phone calls or emails or things like that. how do i interact with them if i can't know who they are inside? tricky, tricky things...

it's always easy to spot a Fe dom/aux, though, because they have a wonderful "smoothness" with people. it's just like they know how to glide along and glide others along with them. like they're moving through water or something. my mom can go into a store with something to return because it was broken and she'll come out with three new friends and a handful of free coupons, in addition to her new not-broken item.

i'm not answering the question here, am i... was there a question? oh man, Ne, foiled again...

 

[Anew Leaf]

i relate to Fe. i don't know what it is, i find that my Fi ends up being a partial simulacrum of Fe at times. i'm good at cards, birthdays, etiquette, stuff like that. i think Te and Si do their part in supporting ENFP attempts at interpersonal relationships.



yep.

i don't think that description is necessarily a great one of Fe, though. the way i understand Fe is as focusing on the relationships between people, as opposed to on the people themselves. Fe users understand personal transactions and interpersonal communication, they understand where people stand with others and how one should appropriately behave with another person of a certain classification (friend/ close friend / mentor / etc.) this is what i go to my Fe dom mom or bff for all the time - i have trouble understanding how to properly relate to people that i can't be 1-on-1 with. like phone calls or emails or things like that. how do i interact with them if i can't know who they are inside? tricky, tricky things...

Interesting description here. I may be looking at Fe-Fi differences all wrong, actually. (I would be delighted to be wrong in this instance! )

Gotta think about this stuff.

By the way, I don't want my posts to sound like I am down about Fi - because ultimately I do love who I am - it's just there are times that I feel out of my element... when I think I shouldn't be so out of my element... Am I making any sense?

I'll think on this.

 

[INTP]

I don't understand. If ENFP's don't use Fe, then why do cog tests show me as NeFi/FeNi? I thought that ALL of the cog processes can be available to someone.. but the PREFERENCE for an ENFP is just NefiTeSi. I've seen other people, even INTJ's comment on how they have both very high Te/Ti functions.. etc. I also read at some point that you can use your not preferred functions, but one tends to use a darker or more negative side.. shadow?

function tests are crap, they just measure how you behave, not where the behavior came from. but they try to draw conclusions about where it came from, therefore they give false results. for example i score high on Fi on function tests, but its just my Ti abstracting( http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/a/#abstraction ) from Fe and it may look like Fi, but its not(functions tests sucks and 8 function theory is just an explanation for this abstraction from some random guy who doesent understant jungian typology properly and is drawing his own conclusions from it). ENFP "Fe" is Fi abstracting from Ne or Te.

this whole shadow function isnt jung or MBTI, its same random peoples theories.. there is 4 functions, which are oriented I or E. ENFPs have their F oriented I, not E. Ne + Fi is what creates strong empathy for ENFPs. they have high activity on brain areas that have mirror cells + Ne is all brain areas blinking like christmas tree -> they mirror others = having understanding about them and because of this understanding about other people, they feel what they feel strongly = similar things that Fe creates.

number one thing you need to learn about MBTI/MBTIfunction tests is that dont count on them

cba to explain this more now since im bit drunk

 

[INTP]

okay i guess i need to give an example.

first of all functions in their simplest form are:

S = is there something there? what is there?
N = where did it come from and where it is(or could be) going?
T = what is it that is there? what is it?
F = what is it worth?/ is it worth it or not?

E = these functions oriented towards external world
I = these functions oriented towards internal world

and
abstracting = removing stuff that is not essential to it from external world to internal world. introverting stuff from external world to internal world
empathy = seeing what is inside on external world. sort of like projection, but not precisely but more like when you look at this picture http://www.dissentingview.net/ThematicApperceptionTestImage13MF.gif , what do you see happening in it or what led to this situation. what ever you came up is empathized to it. extraverting stuff from internal world to external world

ENFPs do F to internal world (Fi), then use empathy to "project" it to external world with Ne(or sometimes Te). this Fi moving to external world due to empathizing looks like Fe. But Fe is simply measuring the worth of things directly from external world, ENFPs always put the value of things from their Fi, instead of seeing the value directly from external world. in conclusion, its just Fi + Ne(or Te) looking like Fe and some idiot couldnt see the difference because he didnt have enough understanding about the subject(abstraction/empathy part), so he made up 8 function theory, that got popularized on the internets, because most people on the internets doesent have much understanding abiut the subject either.

 

[Santosha]

Okay, I get what you are saying here, but I don't understand why you are chosing to convey it as FACT when it is simply a theory. Your chosing Jung's theory over these other peoples (and thats fine) but I want to know WHY. Beyond being a die-hard jungian follower .. I want to know how, or what proof, or what evidence supports that NE-FI or TE-Fi is creating or "abstracting" something that would appear very much like Fe. Or any functions for that matter. Where in Jungs works did he say that all cognitive processes are not available to each type, and more importantly, do you understand how he came to this conclusion?

 

[INTP]

Okay, I get what you are saying here, but I don't understand why you are chosing to convey it as FACT when it is simply a theory. Your chosing Jung's theory over these other peoples (and thats fine) but I want to know WHY. Beyond being a die-hard jungian follower .. I want to know how, or what proof, or what evidence supports that NE-FI or TE-Fi is creating or "abstracting" something that would appear very much like Fe. Or any functions for that matter. Where in Jungs works did he say that all cognitive processes are not available to each type, and more importantly, do you understand how he came to this conclusion?

A common misunderstanding is that by this method a hypothesis could be proven or tested. Generally a hypothesis is used to make predictions that can be tested by observing the outcome of an experiment. If the outcome is inconsistent with the hypothesis, then the hypothesis is rejected. However, if the outcome is consistent with the hypothesis, the experiment is said to support the hypothesis. This careful language is used because researchers recognize that alternative hypotheses may also be consistent with the observations. In this sense, a hypothesis can never be proven, but rather only supported by surviving rounds of scientific testing and, eventually, becoming widely thought of as true. A useful hypothesis allows prediction and within the accuracy of observation of the time, the prediction will be verified. As the accuracy of observation improves with time, the hypothesis may no longer provide an accurate prediction. In this case a new hypothesis will arise to challenge the old, and to the extent that the new hypothesis makes more accurate predictions than the old, the new will supplant it.

i have seen some EEG tests that support this hypothesis that jung made, also i have experienced this me thinking i use Fi(because tests said so), then later realizing that i was abstracting from Fe using Ti.

everything is hypothesis, even the things that you see as "facts".

the reason why im choosing jung over these other theores, is simply because i have noticed them not to be consistent with the hypothesis that they make and have noticed that jungs hypothesis has been consistent with it.

jung said basically that all functions are used by all types, but the functions are S N T F and orientations of the functions vary between types. i dont need to understand why he came to these conclusions, if i see that these conclusions serve the best understanding(more consistent than others) about this matter, when looked at jungian function point of view.

 

[Santosha]

Oh, Okay. Then you conceed that it is not impossible for ENFP's to use Fe, but that it is simply, unlikely.

But thank you for the info, this is something I will have to do more reading on.

 

[Lady_X]

okay cool...that was all very interesting.

 

[Glycerine]

How do you figure reciprocality is not important in expressing love?

Huh? I meant that the hypothetical Fe is not the important thing but and that I use mine for reciprocality. Any emotionally healthy person will show some reciprocation in their own way to the people that they care about.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I relate to the OP.....I largely regard my lack of Fe-associated traits as a flaw.

Oh, Okay. Then you conceed that it is not impossible for ENFP's to use Fe, but that it is simply, unlikely.

Generally, an NFP will "mimic" Fe-associated behavior by transferring Fi ideals into Ne ideas, basically perceiving ways to finally express their feelings in the real world. However, this tends to make our expressions more individual & original, instead of appropriate & according to customary modes, as Fe expressions tend to be. It will still have an air of Fe-associated warmth, caring, self-sacrifice, etc, though, because these are really indicative of a Feeling mindset & its aim for harmony, but Fi just keeps these feelings more gaurded and/or rejects typical ways of expressing them, preferring to wait until a method that matches the depth of its feeling can be found.

 

[Amargith]

So wait, INTP, would you subscribe to what I referred to as Fi-inspired Fe for ENFPs?

(basically, from an Fi value recognizing social etiquette is important to the person in front of you and using Ne to figure out the system behind it, so you can then 'mirror' at them what makes them feel comfortable, much the same way as you naturally do with people and anything you learn about them anyways)

 

[Little Linguist]

(basically, from an Fi value recognizing social etiquette is important to the person in front of you and using Ne to figure out the system behind it, so you can then 'mirror' at them what makes them feel comfortable, much the same way as you naturally do with people and anything you learn about them anyways)

Yup, it's indeed called "mirroring" and is a really good tactic for Fe-tards, like me.

 

[Little Linguist]

That's why I'm initially "quiet" at social gatherings; I'm using antennae to pick up on these things and sort them and find patterns. Once I find someone I'm naturally comfy with and "can be myself" OR discover the social dynamic, I "open up," which initially makes me look "introverted."

The most frustrating thing is when a social dynamic is so foreign that you can't adopt it authentically. Makes me feel dirty, and I leave feeling drained because I invested so much energy into being something I'm not and leaving unsatisfied. Because as an extravert, I need external energy, which I'm not getting because I have to deal with all this bullshit.

That's why I hate parties and clubs. In addition to the fact that I cannot filter background notice, which renders me 'deaf' and makes it almost impossible to pick up the necessary input to fit in anyway. Or I can't fit in anyway even if I did.

 

[Amargith]

^

The bigger the groups, the harder it is, the more effort it requires (more people to scan) and the bigger the head ache. I have to remind myself that superficial scans are all I need as I tend to be too thorough, causing me to take *forever* to scan a group and giving me all kinds of irreconcilable information, causing even more headaches. The key is to look for the common denominator and the crude, main headlines/patterns within the group. Not my favorite way of working, but it substantially decreases the head aches and confusion

 

[Southern Kross]

it's always easy to spot a Fe dom/aux, though, because they have a wonderful "smoothness" with people. it's just like they know how to glide along and glide others along with them. like they're moving through water or something. my mom can go into a store with something to return because it was broken and she'll come out with three new friends and a handful of free coupons, in addition to her new not-broken item.

This is a great way of putting it. XXFJs make me feel like a flailing idiot in comparison. XNFPs in particular seem to be bound to create spikey peaks and troughs when relating to others, without the consistent flow that Fe provides. I can create a connection but struggle to maintain it and it all quickly comes apart with crazy comments or behaviour - it doesn't inspire the same confidence.

 

[INTP]

Oh, Okay. Then you conceed that it is not impossible for ENFP's to use Fe, but that it is simply, unlikely.

But thank you for the info, this is something I will have to do more reading on.

Fe = directly judging value of things(is it worth it or not) according to external standards
Fi = using internal standards to judge value of things

Fi users always use internal judgment of values in the end(is it valuable enough for me). even if they would see value of things in external world(empathizing from Fi), the decision comes from inside. if something goes against their own value judgments(Fi), they simply refuse to do so, naturally its not this simple as you can look one thing from multiple angles, something might not have enough value to act accordingly, but if you look at it from different angle it might have some other value, so you might go with it even tho it goes against some internal value standards.
for example, you dont like to take it in the butt, but your boyfriend does. you might let him do so, even tho its not valuable for you, when you look at it from the angle of what you like. but then you look at it from the angle of, you love your boyfriend and want to please him. this is not Fe, even tho it might lead to same outcome as usage of Fe would. you let him, because you love your boyfriend, so its valuable for you to please him and go against your own wants. -> it just looks like Fe, but its not. NFPs dont use Fe, because there is always the criteria of value for self. also there are other factors not related to functions, like if you were raised to please others, but this again is learned value for self.
Fe user would look at what value it has to his boyfriend, naturally using Ti abstraction on things like if his dick is so big that it would rip the virgin butt, and therefore judge that its not worth it, again this would look like Fi, because its judging F(e) introverted(Ti).

its same with Ne and Se. Ne users doesent use Se, because Se = direct perception of external world to conscious. Ne does similar thing, but it goes to unconscious processing first, that links up the details, seeing where they came from and where they could be going(this way constructing big picture view on external things). naturally Ne user can see details too, but they dont come directly to conscious mind, conscious mind needs to focus on them after perceiving the big picture. again it might seem like the Ne user is using Se and it can lead to similar outcomes(perception of details), but its not Se, because Ne user perceives external world from unconscious first, instead perceiving it directly.

So wait, INTP, would you subscribe to what I referred to as Fi-inspired Fe for ENFPs?

(basically, from an Fi value recognizing social etiquette is important to the person in front of you and using Ne to figure out the system behind it, so you can then 'mirror' at them what makes them feel comfortable, much the same way as you naturally do with people and anything you learn about them anyways)

its not Fi ispired Fe, because you are using your internal judgment on judging the value value, its simply Fi that has been empathized(by Ne) or/and Ne abstracted(by Fi).

would you care about its value to other person if the person(or the situation being smooth for you and people you do care about) didnt have any value for you? or would you dislike to mirror someone who is pissed off?