[Fi] Why does everyone hate on Fi?

[skylights]

Fi sucks because it finds reasons to proactively hate other people. It also absorbs irrational ideas and doesn't let go because they are internalized and meld with the person's "character." So its hell to deal with for thinkers.

I think it has a lot to do with how Te presents Fi, because typically Fi users will externalize Fi, which is very hard to translate into words (just like Ni), with Te, and it comes off as harsh instead of intense, which is not an accurate translation - it's not a vocalization of "hate" so much as a vocalization of fear, pain, and anger. So a T, in particular TP, will see a crappily-logic'd external version of what inside had been a solid and reasonable feeling. For TPs, you guys interpret F with Fe, so you will tend to see our poorly-externalized negative feelings as blunt, cruel personal attacks, which they are not meant to be. TJs tend to be better at understanding the Te presentation of Fi, because they more easily see that the Te, which they are so well-versed in, is not being an adequate vehicle for the emotional nuances of Fi.

Fi is actually much softer and more mutable than I think it comes off. It can become extremely rigid when we sense injustice or pain, in the interest of protection, but once there is evidence of compassion from the other side, Fi relaxes to an incredible extent. I think it's actually fairly easy for Fi users to adjust internalized ideas / character, but we need to see it in a friendly light to be willing to expose ourselves like that. If we feel threatened or judged, we're going to lock down completely and those irrational ideas will remain untouchable from the outside.

Fi probably appears more victimised in the 'real world' by people who band together in groups. But it's hard to tell, l I find, whether grouping together to exclude someone is necessarily a product of Fe. After all if a group is built of Fi types, who is to say they would not exclude Fe because they feel it might overly structure their value system?

I think it's less about actual exclusion and more about the external operation versus internal operation. Fe users tend to tactfully place their value judgments in the open, so that others can see them, discuss them, challenge them, and improve upon them. Fi users do that with T issues, but we keep our F value judgments inside, much in the same way FJs and TPs keep their Ti reasoning inside. What happens for the Fi users in a group of FJs is that the Fi user observes the FJs put feelings out there, discuss them, influence, shift, agree, and finalize - and the Fi user is alone thinking, what the hell is going on here, because it's as if a group of people suddenly decided they were in charge of voting conclusively on something that is an individual choice. I imagine FJs and TPs feel similarly when FPs or TJs come together to discuss logical ideas. Even if the Fi user does pipe up, it's externalized through Te, and it tends to come off too abrasive for Fe, so is interpreted as attack and the Fi user is often rejected, leaving them feeling like they never had a chance to begin with. If a Fi user can learn some Fe tact, they can become much more proficient at joining the conversation.

Another problem with Fi: thinking everyone else feels the same way. Has difficulty logically understanding other functions outside its own awareness.

It's not so much that we think everyone feels the same as it is that we are aware that we don't have a very good understanding of how others operate, so we prefer to tend to our own selves for everyone's sake. The assumption is sort of like "I'll take care of me and my feelings, and I'll share them with you, so that you can understand how I work but I am not imposing myself upon you". And in response, the other person will concentrate on themselves too, and share their intrapersonal understanding as well. In that way, both people learn about one another, and they care about one another, but neither one feels imposed on by the other.

You'll often notice FP discussions in forums tend to be "Well I ____________", followed by "Oh yes something similar happened to me yesterday _________", followed by "My take on this is ________________". It's very ego-centric, it seems, but the idea is that you know what you want to share, but I don't know what you want to share, so I'll share what I feel comfortable sharing, and then you can share what you're comfortable sharing. It's understood that anyone is welcome to contribute when they feel comfortable doing so. We don't try to push our understanding of things on others when we feel like we don't have a good grasp, including other functions. We'd prefer to talk about what we know, as we assume those who are well-acquainted with the other functions will share what they know and we can learn from them.

Sometimes generates self righteous attitudes of "look how unselfish I am compared to you." Oftentimes associated with false pride. Its users are the most likely to make threads that say "Don't take MBTI so seriously, its just a tool" and "don't be so judgemental [like I am toward you]." Most likely to deflect others for its problems so it doesn't have to deal with them.

Where do you see these issues with Fi in particular? Maybe some examples? I've never really heard Fi and pride linked much before.

 

[Azure Flame]

I think it has a lot to do with how Te presents Fi, because typically Fi users will externalize Fi, which is very hard to translate into words (just like Ni), with Te, and it comes off as harsh instead of intense, which is not an accurate translation - it's not a vocalization of "hate" so much as a vocalization of fear, pain, and anger. So a T, in particular TP, will see a crappily-logic'd external version of what inside had been a solid and reasonable feeling. For TPs, you guys interpret F with Fe, so you will tend to see our poorly-externalized negative feelings as blunt, cruel personal attacks, which they are not meant to be. TJs tend to be better at understanding the Te presentation of Fi, because they more easily see that the Te, which they are so well-versed in, is not being an adequate vehicle for the emotional nuances of Fi.

You'll often notice FP discussions in forums tend to be "Well I ____________", followed by "Oh yes something similar happened to me yesterday _________", followed by "My take on this is ________________". It's very ego-centric, it seems, but the idea is that you know what you want to share, but I don't know what you want to share, so I'll share what I feel comfortable sharing, and then you can share what you're comfortable sharing. It's understood that anyone is welcome to contribute when they feel comfortable doing so. We don't try to push our understanding of things on others when we feel like we don't have a good grasp, including other functions. We'd prefer to talk about what we know, as we assume those who are well-acquainted with the other functions will share what they know and we can learn from them.



Where do you see these issues with Fi in particular? Maybe some examples? I've never really heard Fi and pride linked much before.

Eh, NFP's and STJ's have a tendency to guilt trip me. It doesn't feel so much like they're forcing me to focus on myself so much as it feels like they're TELLING ME how to feel about a situation.

Here are actual conversations I've had with some:

ESTJboss: Why don't you believe in yourself?
Me: what are you talking about?
ESTJ: How come you don't believe in yourself?
Me: What does that even mean?
ESTJ: How come when I tell you I believe in you, you don't care? Why don't you believe in yourself?
Me: um... because that's kinda vague and doesn't mean anything to me.
ESTJ: Didn't your parents ever tell you they believe in you?
Me: uh... well, no, not in those words...
ESTJ: How come you don't have any self confidence?
me: I do have self confidence, what are you talking about?
ESTJ: ... Did you check all of the programs?
me: yes.
ESTJ: Did you check [program not on the checklist]?
me: ... no.
ESTJ: I thought you said you checked all the programs.
me: I checked all the programs on the checklist. That wasn't on the checklist.
ESTJ: You're a liar.
me: No, I checked all the programs on the checklist. Those are the only programs I am aware of.
ESTJ: You said you checked all the programs but you didn't. You're a liar. You're lying to me.
me: *slams fist on table and stands up* I AM NOT A FUCKING LIAR.

(shortly got fired afterward)

ENFP boss: I bought you this pizza so you guys won't have to worry about your anxiety for what you have to pack for lunch tomorrow.
Me: Thanks boss, but I think you could use this pizza more than me. I have cookies and a sandwich in the car.
ENFP boss: *confused look*

 

[Ginkgo]

People want to find rationale for why they disagree with other peoples' actions.

 

[skylights]

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

Well, in the case of your old boss, he doesn't sound like a very good communicator. The only one I really understand in terms of Te/Fi is about the believing in yourself - that's a Fi compliment. I guess it doesn't come off as enforcing feeling to me because he didn't really tell you what to believe in, just kind of told you that he thinks you're a worthwhile person. Same with the self-confidence. It doesn't strike me as very personal at all. I really can't explain the "you like to hurt people" or the checklist thing.

It occurs to me that some of those elements of conversation with your old boss may be more Se-Ne than Fe-Fi. For example, "you like to hurt people" seems like it could be a blunt stupid thing to say, but on the other hand, it may be partially true. All people hurt others because it's the most appealing option at some time or another. He sounds like an aggravating guy, regardless.

ENFP boss: I bought you this pizza so you guys won't have to worry about your anxiety for what you have to pack for lunch tomorrow.
Me: Thanks boss, but I think you could use this pizza more than me. I have cookies and a sandwich in the car.
ENFP boss: *confused look*

Typical. I have to get used to that with my FeTi boyfriend. "Here I did this for you!" "Oh, thanks, but I already have that." "But... but... uhhhh...." You'll just have to forgive Fi users for that. We're not very good at doing things for others Fe-style (providing). It's a cute gesture. If you want to help us be more useful, let us know what exactly could be helpful and when.

 

[1487610420]

People want to find rationale for why they disagree with other peoples' actions.

Nonsense. I implicitly know to only disagree with wrong/dumb/stupid/inferior actions.

 

[Nicki]

Haters gonna hate, they be jealous of Fi's skills

 

[Ginkgo]

Nonsense. I implicitly know to only disagree with wrong/dumb/stupid/inferior actions.

No qualitative assumptions there.

 

[KiwiBurst]

You guys can joke all you want but any without values, things like child abuse would be okay. Unless you're a psychopath or a borderline psychopath, then you use Fi to makes judgements based on what you think is right or wrong. Internally, you have already decided what is good or bad. If someone made you fill out a survey (and you had to be honest), and one of the questions was Do you support child abuse?, you would already know the answer. You're not completely confused. This is not something you need to sit down and think about for a week. Without Fi (or any of the functions), humans would not be able to coexist with each other. We have laws to protect people because we believe that Human life is inherently valuable. That's a value judgement in itself.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I don't relate to most of the Fi assertions in this thread - good & bad. I'm like:

I experience Fi as rational. Difficult to explain, but not because it doesn't make sense. There are many things which make perfect sense & explain a truth but are still hard to communicate easily because they are complex, in-depth, requiring special knowledge or high intelligence, etc. Fi is like high math but it's making sense of the human condition instead of using impersonal logic.

Someone said Fi types tell people how to feel...? I experience Fe types telling me how to feel, what I should value, what is appropriate, etc. Sometimes it's helpful when it catches a social blindspot I have, or I find their openness in emoting freeing for me to express myself without feeling too vulnerable, etc. But other times, they're just telling me I SHOULD feel a certain way because that's the standard way. So ascribing that to Fi is just to me.

That Dario Nardi experiment seems to confirm these impressions a lot more.... FJs are more easily embarrassed & respond more to social feedback than FPs & FPs are generally more empathetic in their thinking (easily grasping feelings foreign to themselves & perhaps giving them validation).

 

[Ene]

...because, when it's off-kelter [out of control and imbalanced], it can be like a whirlpool, leading to a bottomless pit, a neediness that knows no ends, because it dwaddles and fiddles and faddles and mulls around going nowhere.

 

[Mal12345]

"I DON'T CARE ABOUT LOGIC! YOU'RE STEPPING ON MY PERSONAL BELIEFS!"

<screams and runs out of the room with hands over ears>

 

[Standuble]

"I DON'T CARE ABOUT LOGIC! YOU'RE STEPPING ON MY PERSONAL BELIEFS!"

<screams and runs out of the room with hands over ears>

That was really stupid. I hope you're not being serious.

 

[Mal12345]

That was really stupid.

Was not.

I hope you're not being serious.

Yup.

 

[Standuble]

Was not.



Yup.

If you're being serious about being serious then perhaps you should take the ESTP from your avatar and put it in the MBTI field. That's the sort of uninformed stupidity I would expect from an ESTP and not from an INTP.

Ad hominems, sweeping generalisations and typist remarks aside, I would advise that Fi (and Fi users) are not anti-logic. They are just unaware of it. When logic turns up it takes apart what Fi constructed as if it were a house of cards. The reason for any frustration is that all the Fi has built up has been invalidated which usually means it's all been a waste of time and they are back to the drawing board in regards for a reason to exist. Think of a room suddenly exposed to vacuum. Boom! Let it all empty out, calm down and let them build a model which is perhaps more realistic and thus stronger.

Possible good example but possible false analogy time: A man opens up a business, all goes well. He is happy as he is making a profit. He knows what he is doing and is making progress. However something is wrong. His future projections of growth are invalid for whilst he pays his bills he does not pay all of them; he is unaware of some of the taxes, costs and legal small print involved with running a business. Upon being advised he looks at the projected growth after everything is taken into account and finds out that he's pretty much fucked. All he has believed, understood, planned for and dreamed of was built around a structure ignorant of a few key factors. So he either denies it all, cries, or in his moment of butthurt rage quits so everyone runs for cover.

It is an impressive display of wrath. Like a piece of space junk which has come down and upon collision unleashed a mushroom cloud. Boom!

 

[Mal12345]

If you're being serious about being serious then perhaps you should take the ESTP from your avatar and put it in the MBTI field. That's the sort of uninformed stupidity I would expect from an ESTP and not from an INTP.

Ad hominems, sweeping generalisations and typist remarks aside, I would advise that Fi (and Fi users) are not anti-logic. They are just unaware of it. When logic turns up it takes apart what Fi constructed as if it were a house of cards. The reason for any frustration is that all the Fi has built up has been invalidated which usually means it's all been a waste of time and they are back to the drawing board in regards for a reason to exist. Think of a room suddenly exposed to vacuum. Boom! Let it all empty out, calm down and let them build a model which is perhaps more realistic and thus stronger.

Isn't that a sweeping generalization?

 

[Standuble]

Isn't that a sweeping generalization?

A sweeping generalization to meet your sweeping generalization of Fi users for a thread full of sweeping generalizations for a topic title which itself is a sweeping generalization.

I love sweeping generalizations. I find there is often something deeply soothing about tarring an entire group with the same brush.

 

[Mal12345]

A sweeping generalization to meet your sweeping generalization of Fi users for a thread full of sweeping generalizations for a topic title which itself is a sweeping generalization.

I love sweeping generalizations. I find there is often something deeply soothing about tarring an entire group with the same brush.

So how do you avoid sweeping generalizations?

 

[Standuble]

So how do you avoid sweeping generalizations?

You cannot. There is no escape.

 

[Mal12345]

You cannot. There is no escape.

Yes there is. I often use individuals that I have typed as examples of types. That's not to say that every INTJ or whatever believes or does such-and-such. But every INTJ I've known has a very rigid and strongly rationalized system of beliefs that can never be extinguished. So when I say X is an intransigent Mormon, the emphasis is on "intransigent," which is a constant with INTJs, and not on "Mormon," which is the variable in my equation.

 

[Standuble]

Yes there is. I often use individuals that I have typed as examples of types. That's not to say that every INTJ or whatever believes or does such-and-such. But every INTJ I've known has a very rigid and strongly rationalized system of beliefs that can never be extinguished. So when I say X is an intransigent Mormon, the emphasis is on "intransigent," which is a constant with INTJs, and not on "Mormon," which is the variable in my equation.

Heh excuse my Fi retard logic but didn't you make a sweeping generalisation when you called intransigent an INTJ constant?