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[NF] Male NF's and dealing with our own mushiness

HiddenAutumn

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Speaking of chick flicks, whenever I've known guys who don't seem embarrassed to watch or like a chick flick, it makes me think they're very confident and self assured.
 

animenagai

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Speaking of chick flicks, whenever I've known guys who don't seem embarrassed to watch or like a chick flick, it makes me think they're very confident and self assured.

I bet that's what you say to all the other guys *flicks hair*
 

Arclight

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I can see what you're saying Arclight. I think maybe that's why I'm only emotional when I'm alone. When I'm by myself I never keep my emotions in check, which can often lead to depression. When I'm around other people, I'm almost too good at controlling my emotions. Even my best friends have hardly ever seen me cry, which I actually do quite often, but no one would ever know.

I guess that kind of goes along with what animenagai was saying about having to present a tougher side of himself so he doesn't feel vulnerable. I'm the same way in a sense. So maybe it's not a guy thing, it's just human nature...or NF nature more likely.

Hmmm, Yes because when I am feeling very vulnerable around others (even on here), vulnerable is the last thing I portray.
I am more likely to act as though nothing can hurt me and I go on the offense against whatever is making me feel vulnerable.
I cry a lot when I am alone too.

Speaking of chick flicks, whenever I've known guys who don't seem embarrassed to watch or like a chick flick, it makes me think they're very confident and self assured.

Embarrassment is never the issue. Most chick flicks are kind of predictable and boring
(Nice Eye candy though):laugh:
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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Being vulnerable is the key. It would seem opposite at first sight, but that's only your defenses speaking. I've noticed that the more I am vulnerable, the more joy there is. So, it's not that people often see me hurt, I'm usually too happy for that. Of course, being vulnerable in this sense means also letting my intuitions (not the MBTI definition of intuition) guide me. So, it doesn't turn out like I go into difficult situations just to feel vulnerable.
 

HiddenAutumn

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Embarrassment is never the issue. Most chick flicks are kind of predictable and boring
(Nice Eye candy though):laugh:

You are so right. There have been a few good ones in the past but they're few and far between. Most chick flicks are so contrived and cheesy.
 

HiddenAutumn

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Being vulnerable is the key. It would seem opposite at first sight, but that's only your defenses speaking. I've noticed that the more I am vulnerable, the more joy there is. So, it's not that people often see me hurt, I'm usually too happy for that. Of course, being vulnerable in this sense means also letting my intuitions (not the MBTI definition of intuition) guide me. So, it doesn't turn out like I go into difficult situations just to feel vulnerable.

That's interesting that you say that because I was just talking to one of my friends last week and she was telling me about this study that was done to figure out why some people are happy and some aren't (even if they have a similar life-style) and it turns out that the people who are happier are the ones who are more willing to allow themselves to be vulnerable.

I guess that kind of makes sense because when you're more willing to be vulnerable you are able to share yourself with others more openly and then relationships can grow stronger and emotional connections can be made, and you're probably willing to take more chances and so your goals are realized more often. And that is definitely where I'm lacking. I am constantly trying to protect myself. I wish I could allow myself to be more vulnerable, but I don't know how. It's terrifying. Even on here sometimes.
 

nolla

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I guess that kind of makes sense because when you're more willing to be vulnerable you are able to share yourself with others more openly and then relationships can grow stronger and emotional connections can be made

Indeed. Even the people who don't like you that much will not find a reason to hate you if you are open to anything.

and you're probably willing to take more chances and so your goals are realized more often.

Hmm... Yeah, that's probably true. But part of it is to be open to the possibility that the goal might not be attainable. Many things we want come with such a price tag that it would be stubborn to continue on the same path. Of course, the hard part is to know when to be vulnerable to which thing. Should I go to a new school or to a job? Both need me to be vulnerable, but in a different way.

And that is definitely where I'm lacking. I am constantly trying to protect myself. I wish I could allow myself to be more vulnerable, but I don't know how. It's terrifying. Even on here sometimes.

What are you protecting yourself from? If you go through the logic behind protecting yourself, you'll probably see that it's a bad strategy. Think about dying. What kind of memories would you like to have when you are on your death bed. Of course, some protection is necessary, but I think most of it is just because of your upbringing. They need people who will try to keep themselves safe at all costs, you see, because they need you in some factory or office, and if you die young, or even worse, live a life of adventure, they won't make so much money. :yes:
 

BAJ

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Someone posted that TED talk on vulnerability not too long back and I've been watching it. Very good stuff.

I'm not sure about my mushiness. I can be very butch, much of the time. Yet, many people think I'm gay or they think I'm a woman on the phone.

I have been accused of being too sensitive many times.

I do cry at movies. I'm not sure the last mushy movie I saw, but I'm sure I do see them.

I did read, "the secret life of bees" a few months ago.
 

HiddenAutumn

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Hmm... Yeah, that's probably true. But part of it is to be open to the possibility that the goal might not be attainable.

That's a good point. I think I get my heart set on things and I just expect it to happen the way I want or the way I've envisioned and when it doesn't I'm devastated. But I need to just trust what life gives me and be open to the possibility of things not going as planned, 'cause as Ranier Maria Rilke says, "Life is in the right, always."

Many things we want come with such a price tag that it would be stubborn to continue on the same path.

What do you mean by that? Like the price is sometimes too high to pay, so we should be willing to change our path if that's the case?

What are you protecting yourself from? If you go through the logic behind protecting yourself, you'll probably see that it's a bad strategy.

I guess I'm protecting myself from being misunderstood or judged by others. I know I'm different; I don't necessarily do things the way the average person would do them, or think the way the average person thinks, and while that's really not good or bad, when people have told you that you're strange enough times or implied that there's something wrong with you, you start to think there must be some truth to it. So the only way I can feel safe from other people's judgements is to not let them see the parts of me they wouldn't understand.

And of course anyone would say, "you shouldn't care what people think, blah, blah, blah," and while that's true that's not always easy. When you've developed a complex about something and people confirm it in various ways, it's hard not to feel vulnerable.
 

Eckhart

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I can relate to what HiddenAutumn says. Especially in younger years it is not so easy to just be yourself when people constantly make you feel bad about your real self. That is the time when most people, I think, develop that barrier to protect their real self, and it is hard to let it drop later even when you grew older and are more able to protect your real self without hiding it. You never totally forget about it I believe, even though it is as you say, a bad strategy to hide yourself from opening up. Not easy to get out of it.

I myself think that my lonely time helped me about it ironically; not being constantly around people outside of family and internet contacts gave me enough time to think about things, regenerate energy and self-confidence and growing more comfortable with my real self.
 

INTPness

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Interesting thread! I'm not an NF, but T is my weakest function and I find myself somewhat relating to this. I don't cry much, but once in a while when something hits me inside, it really hits me - and it's like I can't hold it back. Later this year, I'm walking my sister down the aisle (in place of my father) and, yeah, that's the kind of situation that can cause me to get a little emotional - just the meaning behind it, the memories, etc. I recently got into this huge argument with an ESFJ family member of mine who went out of their way to say, "You can't get emotional at the wedding. You know that right?" I was like, "Huh? What are you talking about?" ESFJ says, "It's your sister's wedding - it's not your place to be emotional. It's her big day, not yours. Don't ruin it for her. If you feel like you need to cry, hold it back. Be strong for her." I was so freakin' dumbfounded by this it just blew up. I said, "First of all, I probably won't cry. Second of all, if the beauty of the moment hits me a certain way, I won't even be able to hold it back. It's like sneezing for me - I can't just 'not cry'. I could try - but there'd probably be a lot of snot involved - which would be even worse." It's not like I can just choose when I want to cry and when I don't. I understand the idea of being under control, composing yourself, etc. - but what is this obsession that society has with "not letting people see what you're really feeling/thinking"?

Like I said, I don't cry much, but when I need to - I need to. It's just something that wells up in me and has to come out. It is what it is, why should I fake it or try to hold it in and end up blowing snot bubbles? I don't know - the idea that you have to purposely suppress this stuff troubles me. Only when I suppress it am I being inauthentic. Know what I mean?
 

Lady_X

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this is an odd topic really because it all depends on how you measure masculinity...the last two nf men that i have been really close to have a really beautiful empathetic heart...there's a softness there but outwardly both are very masculine people....in stance and stature...mannerisms...presence...i don't know what words to use but definitely masculine.
 

Valiant

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a) if you have the same dilhemma (can't really answer the other questions if you don't share this same starting point)

Sometimes, I do. I am very emotional and passionate. I do feel strongly and I am quite sensitive at times, but at the same time I am tough somehow. Didn't used to be, it's an acquired trait I think. Necessary for survival, even if that's not how I am when someone is within my trusted zone.

b) does it feel natural to you to surpress this mushiness

Yes, if it needs to be done. Sometimes, people can't be allowed to know that you're not as hard as you seem, or they won't respect you. They'll devour you like the rabid dogs that they are.

c) if you do things purposely to keep this mushy (Fi?) side of you healthy

Yes. I am very open and honest with my close friends, but it is the romantic relationships that weighs up the suppression of emotions. It's great.

and if you answered yes to c, d) how do you do this?

I can be very warm, loving, generous and kind. All sorts of cute behavior, I suppose. To the point that it's almost silly. ^^
 

Lady_X

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Interesting thread! I'm not an NF, but T is my weakest function and I find myself somewhat relating to this. I don't cry much, but once in a while when something hits me inside, it really hits me - and it's like I can't hold it back. Later this year, I'm walking my sister down the aisle (in place of my father) and, yeah, that's the kind of situation that can cause me to get a little emotional - just the meaning behind it, the memories, etc. I recently got into this huge argument with an ESFJ family member of mine who went out of their way to say, "You can't get emotional at the wedding. You know that right?" I was like, "Huh? What are you talking about?" ESFJ says, "It's your sister's wedding - it's not your place to be emotional. It's her big day, not yours. Don't ruin it for her. If you feel like you need to cry, hold it back. Be strong for her." I was so freakin' dumbfounded by this it just blew up. I said, "First of all, I probably won't cry. Second of all, if the beauty of the moment hits me a certain way, I won't even be able to hold it back. It's like sneezing for me - I can't just 'not cry'. I could try - but there'd probably be a lot of snot involved - which would be even worse." It's not like I can just choose when I want to cry and when I don't. I understand the idea of being under control, composing yourself, etc. - but what is this obsession that society has with "not letting people see what you're really feeling/thinking"?

Like I said, I don't cry much, but when I need to - I need to. It's just something that wells up in me and has to come out. It is what it is, why should I fake it or try to hold it in and end up blowing snot bubbles? I don't know - the idea that you have to purposely suppress this stuff troubles me. Only when I suppress it am I being inauthentic. Know what I mean?

this is hilarious and so so sweet...
 

nolla

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I guess I'm protecting myself from being misunderstood or judged by others. I know I'm different; I don't necessarily do things the way the average person would do them, or think the way the average person thinks, and while that's really not good or bad, when people have told you that you're strange enough times or implied that there's something wrong with you, you start to think there must be some truth to it. So the only way I can feel safe from other people's judgements is to not let them see the parts of me they wouldn't understand.

Yeah, this is hard to manifest all the way. I've got the same issue. It's really difficult. But, I think it starts to solve now. I've finally decided to pursue my artistic interests. Not only that it's the kind of work I like, but as a bonus it dissolves the problem about appearances. Artists can be as eccentric as they like :D

What do you mean by that? Like the price is sometimes too high to pay, so we should be willing to change our path if that's the case?

Well, I was thinking about ethics. For example, I have been living on social benefits for some time now, even if I am healthy and so on. People see this as "lazy and only thinking about himself", while in actuality there's more than meets the eye. I see the financial system of the world work so that the more money I have the less there is for someone else. So, in this context, if I made a lot of money, it is the same to me as being responsible for people dying for hunger in Africa. Also, if I had money, I wouldn't know what to do with it, since almost all I can buy will contribute to the environmental crisis. On top of this, give taxes to the government and they go into sustaining the same problems. And this is not all. I think it is degrading to be working under some person who imagines being more valuable than me just because his task in the firm is "boss" instead of "employee". I'm talking about bosses who think they got the right to have irrational bouts of anger, while expecting the worker to swallow all resentment. There's way too much of money thinking in this business, and the people who don't submit to work overtime will be part of the next downsizing.

So, you see, even if I might sometimes wish for some money to buy some luxuries, I see that me making and spending money is related to most of the suffering in the world. To sell these values would be to deny most of who I am.

I myself think that my lonely time helped me about it ironically; not being constantly around people outside of family and internet contacts gave me enough time to think about things, regenerate energy and self-confidence and growing more comfortable with my real self.

True.
 

ceecee

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this is an odd topic really because it all depends on how you measure masculinity...the last two nf men that i have been really close to have a really beautiful empathetic heart...there's a softness there but outwardly both are very masculine people....in stance and stature...mannerisms...presence...i don't know what words to use but definitely masculine.

I don't know exactly what it's called either but I like it.
 

animenagai

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Kazehaya's scene or

Or Chizuru's bittersweet moment? :D

Sawako's eureka moment with her hiding behind the door and everything :). I really like that girl, even if I'll probably never want to date someone like that. Her particular brand of emotions are what make the show imo. Soooooo cuuuuute! Reminds me of when I was younger :)
 

Peel

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I've never really been that "mushy", at least I don't think, but I can relate to not being as masculine as others. It's something I've come to accept as a part of being me, and that's just who I am. I don't think it's necessarily an issue, or something that you should hide or "deal" with - for me personally, if I did I'd feel like that was lying to myself, and in a way rejecting a part of myself / saying I'm not good enough.

I used to worry a lot about these things, and try to bendover backwards trying to please everyone, but in doing so I felt like I was massively loosing my identity. These days I just try to be myself, and if it isn't to anyone's taste, that's completely fine - I won't be able to be everyones cup of tea, but I can only really be who I am. I'm muchos happier as a result, and have found that it's really not something to be ashamed of - people really do appreciate being geuine and honesty.

I'd say unless it's a major issue, roll with it and be your amazing self :) Besides, if everyone was the same life would be pretty boring!
 

SpankyMcFly

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I also had issues with this when I was in my early 20's. I'm almost 40 now and my advise is, just be.

Something can only bother you if you place value on it. I suggest devaluing what others think of you, in regards to wether or not you are "masculine", it's quite liberating. That liberation will fill you with ease and give you confidence, creating a positive feedback loop. Ironically, confidence in oneself is considered very "manly".
 
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