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[INFJ] It meant a lot less to them than it did to you - what do you do...?

Lauren

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So, to extend this further: how do you figure out if you are in the presence of someone to whom "it" means much the same as it does to you? Not that even the most wonderful friend or lover won't ever hurt you. But someone who values the same things, who sees things similarly or similarly enough, who isn't putting a completely different spin on the situation from your own?

As a few others have mentioned...is it mainly about taking time and maintaining sufficient detachment before getting over-invested?? How do you actually do this???

I don't think there's any one way that this happens so my experience is just one experience out of many. I met someone about a year and a half ago with whom I clicked immediately. It was definitely mutual with, I later learned, an attraction on his part. I felt something extra, even in the beginning, but because I was in another relationship, I wasn't conscious of the feelings for him. Suddenly, at a point in time when we were alone together, I realized there was something deeper going on between us. It was wonderful and I utterly trusted it. I can't think of anything I could have done to stop myself from loving him. Maybe I shouldn't have flung my heart into it but I don't have a regret about that. I would never have known him otherwise, and if you stop yourself or if you are too cautious, I feel a person might be closing down an opportunity as relationships fluctuate all the time and you never know what may be. We've bared our souls to each other, looked right down into each other's hearts, and so to not be with him and not have a possibiity to be is wrenching. We work together, and I've thought: never again will I let myself fall with someone I work with without being clear about what's going on between us. It's very hard to be clear. I would rather let things evolve naturally.
 

cascadeco

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So, to extend this further: how do you figure out if you are in the presence of someone to whom "it" means much the same as it does to you? Not that even the most wonderful friend or lover won't ever hurt you. But someone who values the same things, who sees things similarly or similarly enough, who isn't putting a completely different spin on the situation from your own?

As a few others have mentioned...is it mainly about taking time and maintaining sufficient detachment before getting over-invested?? How do you actually do this???

I think it is just taking time. Maybe telling/reminding yourself that there doesn't HAVE to be a rush for anything - if it's mutual, and if they're invested as much as you, then it will happen of its own accord - there will be a give and take, they'll do some initiating, you'll do some initiating, but it's never you doing ALL of it.

And if you would feel yourself beginning to hold on tightly, especially early on, then trying to take a step back to remind yourself again that *it takes two people*. In the end - in the big picture - do YOU really want to invest/be with someone who might not feel as strongly as you? WHY are you holding so tightly? WHY are you investing so much so early on if you really don't know if they care about you or view you in the same way you view them? Goes back to my first paragraph - there should be a healthy balance / reciprocity -- if you're picking up most or all of the slack, then you might also ask yourself why you're doing that, when you *really* deserve relationships where the other invests just as much. Now, they might show their investment in a different way from you, but I think if you're able to let go a little more earlier on, and try to approach it in more of a 'what happens, happens' mentality, recognizing that in the end you have no control whatsoever in how they feel about you, then it might be easier to be more detached earlier on. Then with Time, you'll be able to sense whether there's reciprocity.

Of course it's HARD to remain detached if you really DO feel strongly about them and you really want a relationship, but ... have to let them be them, too, even if in the end that means they're not going to be feeling it or wanting it. And holding onto that is kind of like holding onto something imaginary that never existed in the first place - i.e. to you it's real, but the Relationship itself was never at that level because the other person didn't feel it. So the 'Relationship' is not really a reality in the first place.

btw I hope this doesn't sound harsh, it's just what I think helps me be more detached these days.
 

Lauren

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I think it is just taking time. Maybe telling/reminding yourself that there doesn't HAVE to be a rush for anything - if it's mutual, and if they're invested as much as you, then it will happen of its own accord - there will be a give and take, they'll do some initiating, you'll do some initiating, but it's never you doing ALL of it.

And if you would feel yourself beginning to hold on tightly, especially early on, then trying to take a step back to remind yourself again that *it takes two people*. In the end - in the big picture - do YOU really want to invest/be with someone who might not feel as strongly as you? WHY are you holding so tightly? WHY are you investing so much so early on if you really don't know if they care about you or view you in the same way you view them? Goes back to my first paragraph - there should be a healthy balance / reciprocity -- if you're picking up most or all of the slack, then you might also ask yourself why you're doing that, when you *really* deserve relationships where the other invests just as much. Now, they might show their investment in a different way from you, but I think if you're able to let go a little more earlier on, and try to approach it in more of a 'what happens, happens' mentality, recognizing that in the end you have no control whatsoever in how they feel about you, then it might be easier to be more detached earlier on. Then with Time, you'll be able to sense whether there's reciprocity.

Of course it's HARD to remain detached if you really DO feel strongly about them and you really want a relationship, but ... have to let them be them, too, even if in the end that means they're not going to be feeling it or wanting it. And holding onto that is kind of like holding onto something imaginary that never existed in the first place - i.e. to you it's real, but the Relationship itself was never at that level because the other person didn't feel it. So the 'Relationship' is not really a reality in the first place.

btw I hope this doesn't sound harsh, it's just what I think helps me be more detached these days.

But someone who values the same things, who sees things similarly or similarly enough, who isn't putting a completely different spin on the situation from your own?

To the bolded: you just never know who's going to show up. Though my friend chose not to pursue things with me (though he showed me in very unambiguous ways that he was attracted to me and had feelings for me), he was all of the things you describe, only we saw things almost as if we were looking through the same eyes. Very emphathetic relationship. The timing wasn't right. I wouldn't have guessed there was someone like him out there in the world.

I would say that what Cascadeco says is very true. You absolutely need the other person to initiate as well and take certain steps that say they want you. What falls in the grey area here is meeting someone who shows you they're very interested and reciprocates, then backs up, then shows you that they still are interested, etc. The only thing to do in this case is, I guess, walk away. In my case it was very hard to do this as he worked a few steps away from me and we had already revealed to each other that we were close (but we didn't say everything). This was a real relationship, acted upon if not spoken aloud. So in a situation like this, is to so unrealistic to wait and see what happens? I didn't think so and I couldn't break away from him at any rate since he seemed to not want to break away from me either (this was clearly demonstrated). I wish I were stronger and able to just say, f*** it. It's hard when you have a history of a strong friendship but you are really more than friends. I say that it's grey because people don't always know what they're feeling or doing. It takes time for someone to trust another, even if the initial feeling is complete trust. I think feeling such trust makes the other person wary, and they need time to test it out.
 

disregard

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Yeah, it's hard to know how other people really feel about you, so I would base it on how they treat you. If they care, it will be obvious; if they don't, it might not be obvious, because it's painful to accept, so you will try to trick yourself.
 

Thalassa

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I am ENFP, I get over-invested at times, with certain pepole. I feel like I'm regularly expressing affection for people, even some who appear not to appreciate it. I honestly thought INFJs were more guarded.

Then again, any time you have a friendship or relationship with ANYBODY, one person's feelings could be stronger than the other, regardless of type.
 

Lily flower

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People talk all the time and don't mean what they say. I think as INFJ's, we tend to only say something if we actually mean it, so it's a big shock to find out that noone else actually has such a need to be authentic.
 

Arclight

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Yeah really!!.. What does authentic even mean? Maybe some type elitist can fill me in.. :doh:
 

Santosha

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People talk all the time and don't mean what they say. I think as INFJ's, we tend to only say something if we actually mean it, so it's a big shock to find out that noone else actually has such a need to be authentic.

This is definately the case with every INFJ I've known. Extremely authentic and trustworthy. I'd say that maybe INFJ's should only date other INFJ's because they deserve eachother... but then that would leave way less potentially AWESOME people for us ENFP's to have a shot with.. so you just forget I said that... right now! =P
 

Lauren

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People talk all the time and don't mean what they say. I think as INFJ's, we tend to only say something if we actually mean it, so it's a big shock to find out that noone else actually has such a need to be authentic.

I know I always feel the need to be authentic (true to how I feel, think) when I say something. If I don't feel I can be authentic, I won't say anything. I'm sure that my friend is a fellow INFP or INFJ. I know he also feels the need to be authentic. That's why in my relationship with him, actions spoke louder than the words we said to each other.

To Disregard: it is hard to know how someone feels sometimes. We always treated each other with respect, kindness, and openness. We enjoyed each other's company and made each other laugh. The two of us are open people by nature (as I say, we're very similar). We have chemistry and it was naturally acted upon in that we touch and enjoy being close to one another. But, if I had asked him how he felt about me, I don't know...right now (because he's committed to someone else) he would probably say he likes me and, at one time, wanted more, but that he couldn't practically see how things would work out because of the place we are in in our lives (I'm guessing). I wish I had been bolder about telling him my feelings straight out. It was the elephant in the room that we pretended wasn't there. I dislike being too forward, though, once I know the other person definitely knows I'm interested. I need them to make a move then. I think I was a little blind in not seeing certain things--that he had decided not to take it further (even if he had mixed feelings about it, which I think he did) while I was still feeling we might still act on the feelings.

So, yes, you don't want to continue having romantic feelings for someone who can't return them in the way you would like. A friend recommended that I put a rubber band around my wrist and snap it every time I think of him romantically. He swears this worked for him.
 

cascadeco

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^Adding romance into the mix makes things even more indistinct sometimes. I don't know what to say, other than there are SO many factors that go into whether or not that will work between two people - mutual intellectual/emotional connection? similar goals? similar ideas of what constitutes a relationship and allignment on the type both are wanting? mutual chemistry/attraction? both people being fully 'present'/able to give to the other? both having the belief/confidence that they in fact CAN be in a relationship? both in fact *wanting* to be in a relationship? ... And the list goes on. And yeah, even if the 'connection' for all intents and purposes is there, the timing might not be right - i.e. one of the people is either fearful or not at all wanting to be in a relationship, or is going to move out of the country next year so doesn't want to start anything... and the list goes on. :smile: And it's also hard to recognize in some of these cases that if you'd met them 5 years prior, or 15 years in the future, things might work out differently, and both might be in the right place at the right time, both wanting to go for the relationship. But in the now, it's not in the cards. Such is life.
 

skylights

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lily, i sympathize about authenticity as well. as a Ne dom sometimes when i talk i am really just hypothesizing, raising ideas, but when i talk to a friend or SO about serious things, i know what i'm saying is really from the heart.

--

anyway -- i'm having this exact trouble right now, of relationships meaning more to you than the other person.

one of my close high school friends appears to have not cared nearly as much about our friendship as i thought she did. about 5 years ago, we parted ways, and she suddenly fell off the map. she will answer some others' communication, but not mine, and she never initiates. but then the few times we've gotten together, she's very gushy and "i miss you!!"-y. she acts like we're very close again. i'm sorry but... you don't know me anymore... now she's just moved back into town, and she's wanting me to meet up with her. i'm hesitant... i feel like i'm just a friend when it's convenient to her.

my most native reaction would just be to meet up with her and just flat-out tell her how i feel, but that would require me opening up again... honestly, the friendship doesn't mean enough to me to risk that kind of vulnerability. it wouldn't matter so much if i didn't actually care about her - i open up wide to people expecting nothing in return all the time - but it hurts me to open up to her and get nothing in return. and it's not like i stand to lose her, she's not there anyway. i figure what i'll do instead is meet up with her, but hold back a bit, protect myself... show her that i'll always love her for being her, but she no longer has the right to be close to me. she can earn it back, if she'd like. i would like to have her as a friend. but i just can't spend so much energy on her for so little in return.

and wow, this solution seems terrifically okay. so right. i pored over the issue for hours and hours to come to this. i almost don't believe it can be this... well, not easy, but okay. usually stuff like this involves so much angst on my part. i don't know if it's Te or Fe or even Ti but something that is distinctly not Fi is working out here :yes:
 

Tallulah

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lily, i sympathize about authenticity as well. as a Ne dom sometimes when i talk i am really just hypothesizing, raising ideas, but when i talk to a friend or SO about serious things, i know what i'm saying is really from the heart.

--

anyway -- i'm having this exact trouble right now, of relationships meaning more to you than the other person.

one of my close high school friends appears to have not cared nearly as much about our friendship as i thought she did. about 5 years ago, we parted ways, and she suddenly fell off the map. she will answer some others' communication, but not mine, and she never initiates. but then the few times we've gotten together, she's very gushy and "i miss you!!"-y. she acts like we're very close again. i'm sorry but... you don't know me anymore... now she's just moved back into town, and she's wanting me to meet up with her. i'm hesitant... i feel like i'm just a friend when it's convenient to her.

my most native reaction would just be to meet up with her and just flat-out tell her how i feel, but that would require me opening up again... honestly, the friendship doesn't mean enough to me to risk that kind of vulnerability. it wouldn't matter so much if i didn't actually care about her - i open up wide to people expecting nothing in return all the time - but it hurts me to open up to her and get nothing in return. and it's not like i stand to lose her, she's not there anyway. i figure what i'll do instead is meet up with her, but hold back a bit, protect myself... show her that i'll always love her for being her, but she no longer has the right to be close to me. she can earn it back, if she'd like. i would like to have her as a friend. but i just can't spend so much energy on her for so little in return.

and wow, this solution seems terrifically okay. so right. i pored over the issue for hours and hours to come to this. i almost don't believe it can be this... well, not easy, but okay. usually stuff like this involves so much angst on my part. i don't know if it's Te or Fe or even Ti but something that is distinctly not Fi is working out here :yes:

I don't know which function it is, either, but it sounds exactly like I'd handle it. Sounds kinda Fe-Ti-ish, to me. :smile:
 

Lauren

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^Adding romance into the mix makes things even more indistinct sometimes. I don't know what to say, other than there are SO many factors that go into whether or not that will work between two people - mutual intellectual/emotional connection? similar goals? similar ideas of what constitutes a relationship and allignment on the type both are wanting? mutual chemistry/attraction? both people being fully 'present'/able to give to the other? both having the belief/confidence that they in fact CAN be in a relationship? both in fact *wanting* to be in a relationship? ... And the list goes on. And yeah, even if the 'connection' for all intents and purposes is there, the timing might not be right - i.e. one of the people is either fearful or not at all wanting to be in a relationship, or is going to move out of the country next year so doesn't want to start anything... and the list goes on. :smile: And it's also hard to recognize in some of these cases that if you'd met them 5 years prior, or 15 years in the future, things might work out differently, and both might be in the right place at the right time, both wanting to go for the relationship. But in the now, it's not in the cards. Such is life.

Thanks Cascadeco. So true. This is so hard because we did have (do have) a relationship that appears that we can't take any further, even though we became close and intimate. It was like having a boyfriend without the sex, though constantly having the desire/fantasy for more intimacy (i'd say this is one thing I definitely know he felt). Yes, there's so much that goes on and I know he had his own thoughts/feelings about what was happening...I don't think we were far off base in how we felt about one another. I don't think I could miss that as we were on the same page so often and it (the relationship) was tested so often. I've wondered why we realized the attraction for each other at the wrong time and place. Or maybe it was the right time and we were meant to meet and know each other. I wanted to tell him/show him how I felt and get it all out in the open but things got in the way or life intervened. But I've also been afraid to just blurt it out. I read somewhere that if you work with someone and you are more than friends but less than lovers, it's good to talk about it so you both know where each other is coming from/capable of giving.

Edit: I think romantic feelings complicate communication. We were acting as if were courting/romancing each other, which we were doing. Work became not just this neutral thing we discussed but a springboard for our connection and an arena in which we reacted to each other as if were, in fact, a couple, with give and take and consideration of each other's feelings and needs. He and I have, I think, a very healthy relationship in that we dealt with issues as they arose rather than manipulating each other or skirting things. We have a pact of honesty. But to the topic at hand :) :

To skylights thought about her friendship: I eventually let a friendship fade away with someone I felt I wasn't getting a specific and important need of mine met: acceptance for who I am . She was too critical and somewhat judgmental--she didn't mean it personally but I didn't like to have to explain myself or answer criticisms that I didn't think needed to be addressed. But she liked me and wanted to keep the friendship, I think. She moved away, so it faded away on its own. If your gut feeling is that the other person is not as invested as you, I think it's best to let it go in your heart. Especially if it continues to happen. It might be a phase they're going through, though.
 
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SilkRoad

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Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences.

I think I'm getting from this...try to be a bit more clear-eyed about where the other person may be coming from, particularly when you view them as a romantic potential and things are still unstated as to what lies between you. I like what cascadeco said about how if you've become super-invested in the idea of a relationship with someone, but it hasn't actually happened and you don't actually know for sure what they are thinking, it's like becoming deeply invested in something that likely doesn't exist or at least is very uncertain. I've set myself up for some painful situations this way.

What I find disheartening though is...I'm starting to wonder how anyone ever achieves a successful relationship. Seriously. It seems as though there are so many things that have to align. Not just mutual attraction, connection, etc but both being prepared to be present and committed in the relationship; having similar ideas about what goes into a good relationship; having a very similar way of looking at the world, OR being prepared to make a massive effort to understand someone who might think very differently from you (or probably a bit of both); etc... It's a lot. There just seems to be so much potential for misunderstanding and resulting hurt in any kind of human relation, and especially in romantic relationships. I'm starting to find it all very daunting. And yet for some people it seems quite simple.
 

syndatha

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I've not been single for more than 6 months since the age of 14 - so personally I'm not familiar whith the topic at all. I'm a relationship person.
There's always been enough single men to choose by, so I've rarely chased after anybody - just picked among the ones that were interested in me. They have all been very quick to commit, and I've usually been the one leaving the relationship. I've been with my man for 13 years now, never cheated.
Wow - soon I start feeling like a spoilt golden retriever :blush:

My INFJ friends, however, constantly experience this. Howcome they always hook up with the assholes? My heart bleeds for them every time, but I also think that they consequently pick men below their own standard. Like they're not aware of their own worth, or something. I think I've just picked my partners more carefully. Or maybe I've been really lucky? At least I feel lucky most of the time :wubbie:
 

Thalassa

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I don't know if what you describe is an ENFJ thing or what, but my ENFJ sister is like that...always in a relationship, like constantly, ridiculously. She lived with three men in the course of a little over a year. I began to wonder if something was wrong with her. My mother says my sister changes men like she changes her underwear.

I actually think my sister has much lower standards than I do, ironically, even though she always has a boyfriend. She's been with the one she's with now for a couple of years, though.

:shrug:
 

Lauren

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Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences.

I think I'm getting from this...try to be a bit more clear-eyed about where the other person may be coming from, particularly when you view them as a romantic potential and things are still unstated as to what lies between you. I like what cascadeco said about how if you've become super-invested in the idea of a relationship with someone, but it hasn't actually happened and you don't actually know for sure what they are thinking, it's like becoming deeply invested in something that likely doesn't exist or at least is very uncertain. I've set myself up for some painful situations this way.

What I find disheartening though is...I'm starting to wonder how anyone ever achieves a successful relationship. Seriously. It seems as though there are so many things that have to align. Not just mutual attraction, connection, etc but both being prepared to be present and committed in the relationship; having similar ideas about what goes into a good relationship; having a very similar way of looking at the world, OR being prepared to make a massive effort to understand someone who might think very differently from you (or probably a bit of both); etc... It's a lot. There just seems to be so much potential for misunderstanding and resulting hurt in any kind of human relation, and especially in romantic relationships. I'm starting to find it all very daunting. And yet for some people it seems quite simple.

This may sound simplistic but even though a number of things have to align, you don't have control over them. So it may seem daunting if you think about the ingredients for a successful relationship but I think when you meet someone and you click, it begins to take on a life of its own. Doors begin to open, the things you need to talk about, you talk about. Or not. Or the other person likes you just the way you are. Or you find you care for them just the way they are and what they feel are their faults, you don't mind at all. There will always be differences but when you are with someone who cares about you, they'll want to work through these. Just some thoughts.
 

miss fortune

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at least you have the ability to open up like that... I concluded at a young age that people suck and I can't trust them like that, so I'm friendly and helpful, but somewhere in there a wall is up, and it's rather hard to get past that wall. The worst part is that my natural style appears to be friendly and open to other people apparently, so they think that they ARE in :unsure:

I guess it's people like me who are the problem there and I appologize... it's a self defense mechanism :shrug:
 

uumlau

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This isn't a typology or Jungian thing, though the principle behind it is the same that motivates typology: namely, different people think differently from you. The world makes a LOT more sense once you realize that.

A good metaphor is a movie theater, in which you see a single person watching a movie. As you watch the movie, you realize that it's your life! Then you look at the person watching it, it's you!

After watching and remembering for a while, you leave, and you enter another theater, with a single person watching a movie. This movie has you in it, but it's different. It's not you, but a facsimile. The person watching the movie is your mom! The movie is how she sees her life and the people in it. It's sort of like your movie, similar in some places, but very different in others, especially the parts about you.

Then you go to more and more of the theaters. There's another with your brother watching his movie, your girlfriend watching hers, or your son watching his, your coworkers watching theirs. Each of them has a different version of you and none of them are "really you."

Then you go back to the first movie theater. You see yourself watching your movie with a new perspective: your movie isn't true. It's not untrue, either, but it's simply your representation of what is real, and other people have their own representations of reality. There is a lot of commonality, but the differences never go away.

So, when something means a lot to you, but not to someone else, it's OK. It's nice when it does and can be shared, and we tend to love those who "share meaningfulness" with us, but even then, there will be other disconnects, where what they see isn't what you see. There's nothing wrong with it. It isn't bad. It isn't good. It just is.
 

SilkRoad

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This may sound simplistic but even though a number of things have to align, you don't have control over them. So it may seem daunting if you think about the ingredients for a successful relationship but I think when you meet someone and you click, it begins to take on a life of its own. Doors begin to open, the things you need to talk about, you talk about. Or not. Or the other person likes you just the way you are. Or you find you care for them just the way they are and what they feel are their faults, you don't mind at all. There will always be differences but when you are with someone who cares about you, they'll want to work through these. Just some thoughts.

Yeah, this does make sense. And this is why, although unfortunately I do occasionally pine after people who aren't showing a sufficient degree of interest in me...I don't go on pining once it's become REALLY clear that it's not going to happen (ie. we've broken up; or the relationship never materialised and they started going out with someone else; etc!) Don't get me wrong, I'll probably feel very sad and hurt for longer than healthier! But I won't pine as in "I wish we could get back together, or I wish he'd break up with his new GF so we can be together." Because, as I think someone else said - Huxley? more or less - it's not that you've lost someone you "shouldn't have". If you lost them, they weren't the right one. Well, I know many people have ended up in situations where they wouldn't quite agree with this but I think it is generally true and somewhat comforting. If they were "the right one", it's not that things would have been 100% perfect from the start in terms of compatibility, similar view on relationships, etc etc etc. But they would have been sufficiently aligned, AND both of you would have been present and willing to work through the non-perfect stuff...also accepting that no relationship, however fantastic, is EVER going to be perfect.

When talking about friendships rather than relationships, it is a bit easier. While it can be frustrating and saddening to feel that your investment is bigger or different than someone else's, I think you need less "alignment" all around before it can still be a good friendship. Friendships are also more fluid in a way... In a long-term relationship or marriage, you can't really ebb and flow and leave each other and come back to each other in the same way! I have had long long friendships (I can think of one that's lasted more than twenty years, for instance) where we've been very close, then less close, then living far apart but keeping in touch a bit, then pretty much losing touch for a few years, then getting back in touch, then getting close-ish again though not as close as when we were ten...that sort of thing. And it can work well. It's not ideal, but it's ok. I have friendships where we only get in touch every couple of years, and maybe see each other every four or five years, but the great thing is we can pick up where we left off, and there's no resentment. It's a bit harder when the person lives close to you and you feel like you're the one always suggesting that you get together, or whatever. But sometimes, well, you just have to let go a bit. I have a friend who is probably INTJ (INTP?) and I've been really frustrated at times that she doesn't reach out more. But for a long time that was because her health was terrible, and honestly I don't think I realised just how terrible because she was very stoic about it. And now her health is much better, but she is still a very very self-sufficient person, perhaps a little too much, from my perspective. But when we do get together, it's all good. Neither of us are massively invested but we can still be there for each other. However, I've had closer friendships with a really big investment and really tough times we've struggled through, and those ones are harder to deal with if you really get let down, or they betray your trust or whatever. There's more repair work needed under those circumstances, and maybe more re-calibration of how you fit into each other's lives.

Uumlau: I really like your illustration. And I agree that the world makes much more sense when you realise that not everyone thinks as you do...that's probably where MBTI has helped me the most. The only thing I disagree with is that, rather than this just being the way it is and neither bad nor good, I tend to think it's both bad and good. ;)
 
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