[Fi] Need Fi help!

[Fidelia]

I'm enjoying this thread and I feel like it will be of practical use to me. It feels kind of foreign, as what is rude to do in my world is actually appreciated in Fi worlds. Thanks to all of you who are offering your thoughts here.

 

[Orangey]

Affirmation or compliments are not disingenuous when they are sincere. And if one attempts a fake compliment just to open a door, it won't get very far, as even a very young Fi-er can tell the difference between a real compliment and a fake, unearned one.

Sometimes, though, genuine compliments (especially those that are gushy) might be taken as unearned and therefore fake. Especially when there are threads floating around here about how it's difficult for some people to take compliments because their perfectionism never allows them to feel true.

As for the "sandwich technique" I favor one where the negatives come out first, then followed with relevant positives. I don't think starting with a positive to be necessary when you end with a whole whack of positives.

EDIT: The reason why is because I like to avoid the word "but" ... the sandwich often comes out as "You are doing a great job BUT blah blah blah negative don't hear anything else you say for the rest of the discussion". Starting with the challenge areas, then with affirmation, means you don't have to get involved with that dangerous word.

BUT ... but nothing!

I can see how that might work better in some cases, but if you're dealing with a really sensitive person (e.g., someone sensitive enough to be upset about indirect emails offering impersonal criticism), I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't just stop listening to you once they've heard the criticism part. I know that if I did that with my ESFP sister, she would automatically go on the defensive and nothing would get through to her ("...why are you attacking me right now? Waaaaaah".) It's happened before.

This is true to a degree, that Fi can tell the difference between wheat bread and white bread "sandwiches," and Tallulah will need to watch out for that. The main way to do it is to keep it simple and concrete. A vague, "I really value you," will sound fake without either a concrete example or exactly the right tone of voice. To make it concrete, just mention a particular song/piece where his playing shines; the concreteness makes it obvious that you're paying attention to his contribution, and thus value him, and thus any criticism is along the lines of, "You're really good on this piece, so what's missing from your playing on this other one?"

Yeah, I imagine you'd need to "prove" your compliment for it to be taken seriously, especially if the person is already the type that tends to beat himself up.

Also, it helps that Tallulah is there in person, and really does like him want to help, and for the most part, that will come through as "integrity." So it's more a matter of being aware of the potential for miscommunication and not assuming that what is obvious to her is obvious to him.

Well, yeah. Even with the assumption that she genuinely likes him, there is a pretty big possibility for misunderstanding and backlash.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ Hey Orangey thanks for your thoughts. Just wanted to add that each person and situation is unique, and that means an appropriately customized approach. I just can't do that justice here in a thread that's about generalized ways to approach critique. And some people have better (or more practiced) skills, so that's a factor too. Since this is a thread soliciting an Fi perspective, that's what I'm offering. But it wouldn't work for all people, and I am not presenting it as such. Plus, there's so much more ... preserving the self-esteem and dignity of the individual, learning all the facts that might explain why someone is behaving a certain way, cultivating a relationship that can withstand honest and fair critique ... etc etc etc

a really sensitive person (e.g., someone sensitive enough to be upset about indirect emails offering impersonal criticism)

Note your own perspective and judgement. Why must someone be labelled "really sensitive" when to them this approach may seem passive aggressive and equally offensive?

 

[skylights]

because tallulah's purpose is to help him, i suspect it's very unlikely that any compliments will come off fake, as long as she actually means them. Fi checks for "internal (feeling) consistency", and in this case her words will match up with her intent. ime, what Fi will erroneously read as fake more often is genuine Fe used as the person is also working towards a private Ni or Si goal. something about the person's bearing/speech/actions will tell you one thing, but another aspect will tell you something that's not really along that same track, and that's when you start feeling uneasy. but i've never really met an INTP who is likely to give undeserved praise!

PB you have a good point about the sandwich thing, lol. you could totally feel ripped off - "hey i'm going to say great things about you BUT JUST KIDDING". i like your idea of negatives first - i think why i was thinking positives first in this case is because he might be feeling a little sore about his standing with the band in general. actually i think that's why my post in general was sooo about affirmation. i got the sense that maybe he has been frustrated about this for awhile.

but he'd probably appreciate someone just coming out and saying it anyway, and being willing to talk about it with him, instead of distantly announcing it and not being there to support.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ thanks skylights ... I agree and think your advice sound, and my concern is that to the readers here mine comes off as being a bit cold with negatives first, yet all my convos about this kind of stuff are steeped in tons of Fi love I used to feel uncomfortable to do it at all and couched it too much; now I try to be more direct without undue vacillating at the start.

That whole 9 / avoid conflict thing.

 

[Poki]

IMO, he sounds stifled in the group and it doesnt sound like it really is him or fits him. Where is this group going in the direction he wants to go, whats the future look like for him and who he is? Some people like immitating what they enjoy, some like stepping out of the box completely...some like taking someone elses work and making it there own. Maybe a heart to heart about what he wants, where the group is, see what he needs. Why is he good at some parts and not at others? What drives hime, what motivates him...does he not feel the part he struggles with, does he have a hard time with techniques, does those parts bore him...etc.

The direction most people are going sounds like a talk your parents have with you...your grades are good son, but.... OR Your doing really good over here, if you focused over here a little more then things will really take off. Learn to beat yourself up, its a way to get past failure and motivate yourself...lol...sorry had to throw that in(Se driven observation of the world, not personal experience). Seems to be where this is going...what do I need to say to get him to do XYZ....he is Fi so I need to say it in an Fi friendly way...blah...blah...blah...

and from the words of an INTP...I am now 2 cents poorer and I didnt have much coming into this one anyway.

this post isnt type related at all...good night and sweet dreams....*i get the impression I should pass out from being drunk right after writing this, possibly fall off the stage(or sidewalk)*

 

[Tallulah]

Please don't quote this part, in case I decide to remove it later.

Welp, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this subject, spurred by your responses here...and it's really clear to me that the ENFJ and I have been stifling the ENFP, INTJ and (possible) ESTJ. And we've kind of reached a boiling point in the past few days, because ENFJ doesn't respond well to the idea of the problem being a communication problem. (ESTJ made a comment that, while true, she saw as an insult toward her personally. I saw it as unfortunately phrased, but something he really felt was a valid issue.) She didn't like that no one leaped to defend her. I pointed out that it wasn't an insult--it was him genuinely saying how he felt, after a LONG time of mostly sucking it up and not making waves. No matter. She's pretty well done with him.

She sees their interaction style as immature, passive-aggressive, sometimes too directive and bossy (which is very ironic, because they could say some of the same stuff about her style). She doesn't want to see it any differently right now. She's having trouble seeing how her actions have set in motion this feeling amongst the others of marginalization and unrest. She kind of just wants people to fall in line, and if they don't, she wants a personnel change. It's been hell on me, because she's not being reasonable right now, and I feel like the others are being characterized unfairly. So, INTJ and I are going to have a confab tomorrow about how to fix this. Right now, we're thinking we can come up with a game plan for having a band meeting. This could be healing, or it could be something that will explode in our faces.

 

[Amargith]

Wow....I guess it's been going on too long, so there are too many frustrations on both sides. It's kinda funny the two introverts are going to mediate
Tallullah, I wouldn't wanna be in your spot right now, but you're doing awesome, so keep going! Just know that it might be too late, but it's definitely worth a shot




Oh @ people who discussed the sandwich feedback

I dunno which version you learned but I learned the one where 'BUT' is *not* allowed.

The 3 rules for the sandwich feedback I learned were:

1) something something possitive [insert what needs improving] general conclusion positive recap
2) Always always use 'I' and never 'you'
3) NEVER EVER use 'But'. Always use 'And'.

So:

I think you did a really great job today, AND I think if you do this and this to add on to that, or perhaps twist that in to that, it could be even greater. OVERALL however, so far, it's awesome.

For a more negative example:

I think it's a great concept, AND I feel that if you add this or this to it, or try it this way,it will be great. OVERALL though, I'd say you made an excellent start.


'And' is way less intrusive than 'But' ever will be. We've become allergic to the word 'but' due to 'yes, but'-ting.

 

[Tallulah]

^^

Oh, that's good! Thank you for the example. If I get an opportunity, I will try that tonight.

Yeah, it's been going on a while. I kind of had a Sixth Sense moment when I realized how serious it was--I flashed back to all the times we've had conflicts and all the times the guys have tried to tell us the way they like to work, or something they're frustrated with. It just didn't really register at the time, because I didn't realize it was a Fe-Fi conflict. It just seemed like, "Let's do it this way." "I don't want to...let's do it this way, instead." Or sometimes, unfortunately, the ENFJ would say, "We don't need to do it that way. We're doing it this way." I've talked to her several times about her tendency to seem dismissive of people and pronounce things. The bass player, our other peacemaker, has, too.

 

[iwakar]

I think you did a really great job today, AND I think if you do this and this to add on to that, or perhaps twist that in to that, it could be even greater. OVERALL however, so far, it's awesome.

For a more negative example:

I think it's a great concept, AND I feel that if you add this or this to it, or try it this way,it will be great. OVERALL though, I'd say you made an excellent start.


'And' is way less intrusive than 'But' ever will be. We've become allergic to the word 'but' due to 'yes, but'-ting.

You are right on about this.

 

[iwakar]

^^

Oh, that's good! Thank you for the example. If I get an opportunity, I will try that tonight.

Yeah, it's been going on a while. I kind of had a Sixth Sense moment when I realized how serious it was--I flashed back to all the times we've had conflicts and all the times the guys have tried to tell us the way they like to work, or something they're frustrated with. It just didn't really register at the time, because I didn't realize it was a Fe-Fi conflict. It just seemed like, "Let's do it this way." "I don't want to...let's do it this way, instead." Or sometimes, unfortunately, the ENFJ would say, "We don't need to do it that way. We're doing it this way." I've talked to her several times about her tendency to seem dismissive of people and pronounce things. The bass player, our other peacemaker, has, too.

I don't say this lightly. I think you may be the most incredible INTP I've ever encountered.

 

[uumlau]

I don't say this lightly. I think you may be the most incredible INTP I've ever encountered.

Yes, Tallulah is quite cool.

 

[Amargith]

 

[iwakar]

Yes, Tallulah is quite cool.

I wish we lived near one another. I would make her my RL friend so fast, she'd think she'd been enveloped by a hurricane.

 

[Lady_X]

because tallulah's purpose is to help him, i suspect it's very unlikely that any compliments will come off fake, as long as she actually means them. Fi checks for "internal (feeling) consistency", and in this case her words will match up with her intent. ime, what Fi will erroneously read as fake more often is genuine Fe used as the person is also working towards a private Ni or Si goal. something about the person's bearing/speech/actions will tell you one thing, but another aspect will tell you something that's not really along that same track, and that's when you start feeling uneasy. but i've never really met an INTP who is likely to give undeserved praise!

PB you have a good point about the sandwich thing, lol. you could totally feel ripped off - "hey i'm going to say great things about you BUT JUST KIDDING". i like your idea of negatives first - i think why i was thinking positives first in this case is because he might be feeling a little sore about his standing with the band in general. actually i think that's why my post in general was sooo about affirmation. i got the sense that maybe he has been frustrated about this for awhile.

but he'd probably appreciate someone just coming out and saying it anyway, and being willing to talk about it with him, instead of distantly announcing it and not being there to support.

i totally think less is more...straightforwardness...like on this song we are all so in sync and the part where you do this and that rocks you're awesome at blank in this song and that song but on this one and that one there's a disconnect and it's all out of balance you're playing it this way when we're playing it that way...can you hear it? what's your perspective? would it help if we tweaked this or that...or what can you think of to make this one gel like the others do?

i don't think the negatives or positives have to be overdone...just accurate and true.

 

[Athenian200]

It sounds as though the ENFJ and the ENFP are having creative differences. The ENFP is losing their enthusiasm, because they don't want to do things the ENFJ's way. It seems like, if the ENFJ is the leader... that ENFP might just have to be let go, because he's not falling in line with her vision. I think that's what is ultimately going to happen if he can't be persuaded to do a better job.

Perhaps it will be necessary to replace most of the Te/Fi users... they seem to be resistant to the ENFJ's vision. And the ENFJ is not going to like the idea of sacrificing their vision to Te/Fi principles that are alien to them.

I have to admit, when I read your OP... I was picturing myself in the ENFJ's place, and thinking "This person is so selfish and lazy, they clearly don't share my vision or understand how it benefits them. They don't respond to my suggestions that they improve. If they weren't my friend, I'd have fired them already and looked for someone better. Maybe it's time to let them go anyway... their attitude is putting such a strain on our friendship anyway that I can't stand it." Depending on what mood she's in, she might even think she's being sabotaged.

Just note that while I am mostly sympathetic to the ENFJ in this situation... I'm very aware that there's an Fi perspective as well, and that this isn't the only way to look at it. But I thought this might be a good point in the thread to remind everyone of the ENFJ's perspective, just to make sure it wasn't forgotten about. I don't think her expectations as a leader are terribly unreasonable.

Here's hoping that the conflict is resolved somehow, without having to fire anyone. I wish all of you good luck.

 

[PeaceBaby]

To me it seems she's not being a leader though, she's expecting to be served rather than serve. There is a big difference attitudinally. And from what I understand, there is no defined vision - people can't follow something that only exists in another person's mind.

I think if the ENFJ can truly emerge as a leader here there is still space for reparation. But it's close to breaking all apart. Anyhoo, I am interested to hear how the meeting goes today, sending lots of best wishes.

Not intending any judgement here Athenian200, but it is interesting to me how my default is to try to help everyone be compatible and peacefully coexist and yours is to create a peaceful coexistence by choosing more compatible people.

 

[Athenian200]

I think if the ENFJ can truly emerge as a leader here there is still space for reparation. But it's close to breaking all apart. Anyhoo, I am interested to hear how the meeting goes today, sending lots of best wishes.

Me too, I'm hoping for the best. *crosses fingers*

Not intending any judgement here Athenian200, but it is interesting to me how my default is to try to help everyone be compatible and peacefully coexist and yours is to create a peaceful coexistence by choosing more compatible people.

Yeah, it is pretty funny, if you think about it that way. Although I prefer to try and help everyone get along if there's any hope... I do prefer choosing more compatible people in the first place. Remember, I was just saying how I imagine an ENFJ in this situation would do things. Not how I would do them, per se. My Fe has a default response (which is why I sympathize), but my Ni usually overrides it and softens it in situations like this, rather than backing it up. That makes a difference.

 

[Tallulah]

Aww, you guys! Thank you for all of your kind words! And for the added info and perspectives. I really am taking the crash course in Fe-Fi relations with this situation!

To me it seems she's not being a leader though, she's expecting to be served rather than serve. There is a big difference attitudinally. And from what I understand, there is no defined vision - people can't follow something that only exists in another person's mind.

I think if the ENFJ can truly emerge as a leader here there is still space for reparation. But it's close to breaking all apart. Anyhoo, I am interested to hear how the meeting goes today, sending lots of best wishes.

Not intending any judgement here Athenian200, but it is interesting to me how my default is to try to help everyone be compatible and peacefully coexist and yours is to create a peaceful coexistence by choosing more compatible people.

PeaceBaby has really nailed it here. That's exactly what's happening. ENFJ is being the leader only in the sense of having her vision and telling everyone else what to do. She hasn't really thought about what being a real leader entails. That's one thing this threads has really made me think about: what exactly makes a good leader? I'm afraid that right now ENFJ is so worked up that it's going to be hard to get through to her. But I'm hoping I can encourage her to go the rest of the way and develop leadership skills, listening to everyone else and giving them what they need to be successful and creatively happy and fulfilled. She's definitely capable of it. She's extraordinarily intelligent, and she doesn't mind taking the reins. But she's used to dishing things out and not taking them very well. She's used to "I didn't screw it up, so why do I have to be there?" I really need her to see the consequences of her own words, actions, and Fe style, to really understand the cause and effect relationship. I need her to see it's in her own best interest to be more of a team player.

Partial band meeting tonight...I'm meeting with ENFP and INTJ. Will let you know how it goes!

 

[skylights]

I think if the ENFJ can truly emerge as a leader here there is still space for reparation

what exactly makes a good leader?

yes, it's an interesting question, isn't it.

helpful, perhaps, would be the idea of picking and choosing battles. she can have primary say in the big calls, but in little things, she may need to just let a little bit go and let other members do as they please. she wants what she wants, but because her vision requires other people, she's going to have to deal with the slightly messy reality of working with them. she can allow for a little deviation without losing her vision - the important part of it, at least.

you and the others might be able to help her figure out what each person really needs to be happy about how the band is going, and how to meet these needs without losing sight of the "heart" of the band itself. she will need to let Fe guide Ni, instead of vice versa.

--

theoretical tangent:

unfortunately i have been in a group where a (tested, self-confirmed) NFJ leader just decided to ignore the people he didn't like. the problem with that is that the group no longer becomes a group about something, it becomes the NFJ's group. now, in the case of my group, i have to admit that i trusted the NFJ more readily than a lot of other members, and he tended to ignore people who i felt acted in ways that were detrimental to the group. however, i feel like i was okay with it because our conceptions of what the group should be were very similar. if i had different ideas, i may have been less content.

i am very much in favor of group mission statements for this reason in groups whose leaders will inevitably change (for example, in college groups whose leaders will graduate). that keeps the group anchored to a mission agreed upon by all individuals up front, and delineates the boundaries for what can be questioned and what cannot. people can then latch onto that mission as they please - through Ni envisioning, Fi idealism, whatever - but there's something besides people defining what the group is about, which gives the group itself - as a whole - a lasting identity.

though of course in the case of a band, which may not exist without certain members, that is less necessarily applicable.