[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[cascadeco]

^^ +1 This resonates quite a lot with me - in terms of how I build upon relationships as well as when I back away from them. It's important that I stay true to myself, too, and tie that into what I know of the other person and how THEY are. Because it's important to me that THEY stay who they are and stay true to themselves - as I'm not in the business of changing people. This is where my sense of the Relationship comes in - if I sense that my staying true to myself, and they staying true to themselves, results in a mutually-satisfactory-Relationship-impossibility, I'll not devote myself to it or I'll remove myself from the relationship. This is why yes, commonalities are rather important to me. If we're so diametrically opposed, it's not that I think the other person is 'wrong' or whatever, it's more that the combo of us two together- our natural selves - is not excellent.

Regarding venting. Here's the thing. I don't view the MIL's views/judgments towards the mother as 'cruel' per se. I view it as... she has a right to have that opinion. I may not agree with it, or to the degree of it, but she certainly has a right to it. I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.

 

[Randomnity]

But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.

I agree with this.

Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?

 

[Totenkindly]

Step 1) I feel really badly for you. I am a terrible planner myself so I totally get what you are saying about organizing bills. I once lost a job and I know how much it really sucks. Shit happens sometimes, and you are an awesome person, so dont let it get you down. We'll figure something out.

Step 2) Do you need money for a down payment on a new car? Can I help you pay your bills or cover rent till you get paid again? Do you need a ride anywhere? (Notice how "logistical" all of this is-never commenting on the person-assuming no ill intent but just a run of bad luck)

Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.

Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)

After crossing multiple boundaries....

Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)

I don't know if I could ever call someone a "fucking scavenger" and "a piece of trash" to their face... especially if it was a close friend or family member. It depends on context, but I don't really see that ever happening. Even when I've had to deal with selfish people, I don't actually like to label them that way... labeling their very person rather than just labeling their choices and actions. I'd like to say it to my dad, he deserves it more than anyone else I've known in my family... and yet my doing so will not change him for the better and only will make things worse for him and others... so I don't think that's a responsible use of my autonomy.

I also don't see such ocurrences as funny or delightful. I see the whole situation as sad and painful that I would have to say such hard things to someone in order to them change their lives for the better. Even with people I am very angry at (and I've even felt anger like that at a few people I've had to deal with far too often on this forum), I still have a sense about me that sees them as a human being, and often they have a different outlook that is making it difficult for them to make the necessary changes, and I just don't really derive much joy out of the whole thing whatsoever, even if at the moment I do feel some relief at being able to release my tension and stating my mind.

Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary? Because if it is, I'm glad as hell I'm not one. (But, honestly, considering I know some other Fi people who would NEVER behave this way, i don't think it's an Fi thing. I think it's just pent-up frustration as well as some degree of self-righteous pleasure, if I had to guess -- finally someone is getting what they seemingly deserve, and all apparent wrongs shall be righted.)

As far as skimming the rest, I think for me, the "Fe" thing in the fourth position means that I try very hard to subject my emotions to the constraints and needs of the group I am currently interacting with. There are many things I often feel like saying and might even feel are okay to say in general, but whenever I am in a group, I am aware of the unspoken rules and expectations of the group. Sometimes I disagree with the rules and expectations (that's the fun of being Ti -- you sometimes see such things as bullshit)... and at that point, it comes down to "what are the ramifications of me choosing to act a certain way -- does it achieve my goals, does it create the sort of environment that needs to exist in order to fulfill the natural function of the group, etc." So I'm logically looking at the overall impact of me expressing particular values and feelings in the moment, and if those expressions of myself are going to derail the big picture, then I make my emotions subservient to the needs of the group and the situation. It's more important for me to support the goal and group atmosphere than it is necessary for me to simply have freedom to express and impose myself.

That's my personal experience.

 

[Randomnity]

and do try to understand that for whatever reason, when ENFPs lash out, we tend to call people not nice things that we don't really mean literally. i know, this is shitty, but don't pretend like you don't do shitty things too.

Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

"you're a parasite"
"you're a piece of trash"
"you're too lazy to take care of your family"

To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

And Fi calls venting cruel?!

 

[Orangey]

I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.

Right? It takes a self-centered person to grant their own opinion so much weight in such matters.

I agree with this.

Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?

Agreed.

Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary? Because if it is, I'm glad as hell I'm not one. (But, honestly, considering I know some other Fi people who would NEVER behave this way, i don't think it's an Fi thing. I think it's just pent-up frustration as well as some degree of self-righteous pleasure, if I had to guess -- finally someone is getting what they seemingly deserve, and all apparent wrongs shall be righted.)

I think so, too.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Per usual, still catching up- but I at least wanted to get this response to PB up.

This comment spawned a question for me: does an Fe user have to agree with or understand someone (or the reason they are upset) in order to respond with compassion? I have noted that Te has difficulty with this, perhaps so too does Fe. I sometimes think Fe has a patience bandwidth, a time limit of response? That you get the Fe ear for only so long and if they don't agree you receive an Fe-style directive to "suck it up" so to speak. Te's directive is kind of different ... will focus on "Well did you do this? Did you do that? Why didn't you blah blah blah"

This thought needs more pondering and refinement. Please respond or add as anyone sees fit.

Totally agree with what cascadeco said about this.

That could explain my hesitance to place a "people" judgement out in the world. You can never know all the variables that constitute a human action or behaviour, and right when you decide to throw caution to the wind and make a snap judgement on someone (as opposed to listening to the intuition about someone) that's when they come back with new behaviour that will surprise you or your mother tells you they had cancer last year so that's perhaps why they are acting they way they do. I trust my intuitions, but not my extrapolations, until I have real data. Til I do my due diligence. Does that make sense?

^It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder how many E/I attitude differences we ‘create’ in this forum, because I can relate so well. But then, what you wrote is exactly why I vent to a third party- hoping those missing pieces will be revealed before actually confronting the person. I hear the arguments presented- about how people can pick up on the judgments through unspoken cues that someone is having negative judgments- and I agree that just because we don’t voice negative judgments to a person doesn’t mean that person isn’t affected. But I do think that actually voicing the negative judgments to the person can have a more detrimental affect than voicing them to someone else- the negative judgments are there, whether we try to hide them or not (and so, will affect the person regardless), but voicing them to a third party can clear them up (by hopefully getting some of the missing pieces). It *seems* like Fi’ers are maybe better at holding it in longer and processing more on their own? I suspect Fi and Fe alike don’t wholly trust their own extrapolations, but Fe’ers need to put them ‘out there’ for feedback before Fi’ers do- just as Ti’ers aren’t always RIGHT, but they can process more internally before putting their thoughts ‘out there’.

Need to reflect on this, I am not sure. Being objective about subjective things seems tricky to me - Fe feels more context dependent, tries to build a foundation (objectivity) in sand, and the sand shifts (human subjectivity), and what to do then? If Fi is subjectively subjective and Te is objectively objective, as an INFP I trust a process that challenges me to look at things in that harsher Te light. Fi gives me a whole whack of impressions, and feelings, and guides my congruency to that core of Fi principles, and Te holds everything to the light and asks if I am being logical, systematic, thorough, efficient. Maybe it's why Ti is so challenged to look at people-stuff, it's often so seemingly illogical! Fe is needed to cut out what seems like chaff and find that universality of principle, what WORKS. And vice versa. Fi has more tolerance to this infinite array of variables, Fi I guess being a brand of logic too. Yet I am aware of the subjective, personal nature of it.

Adding the disclaimer that I don't believe one process (or hierarchy of process) inherently better than another.

I am simply blabbing out loud, need to think about this more.

This is where I’m getting stuck in extraverting the Ni/Ti mess of information that comes to mind. I’ve put *a lot* of thought, actually, into how Fi/Te processes the subjective function in a subjective way and the objective function in an objective way- and how Fe/Ti processes the subjective in an objective way and the objective in a subjective way- for a while now. But I’m having difficulty extroverting the information in an intelligible way. It looks like some people have already hit on it though- I take the collective of values into account while interacting with my environment because I don’t consider my own values more important that others’ values. There’s a lot more to it, but being stuck in articulating it is the reason it’s taken me so long to respond- so I’m going to skip over it for now. [edit:] When I say 'extraverting information', I mean 'extraverting theories'. I have theories I'd like to bounce off others, but I'm having a hard time articulating them.

Yes, I could have written this too ... I don't have an infinite patience to listen to OPP (other people's problems) mostly when they take no action and desire to wallow. I have no tolerance to wallow. Maybe an afternoon of watching old movies and eating ice cream with chocolate sauce ... but that's as far as I want to be stuck. I will listen, and commiserate, and offer some advice if asked, but someone who takes advantage of me listening - I have learned how to shut that down. In my twenties, oh the people I attracted, who all they ever did was share their continued issues in their lives, and who seemingly never acted. Hmmm, anyway. We all live and learn and grow. Those folks still helped me grow.

Again, this kind of thing makes me wonder if we’re making mountains out of molehills in these Fe/Fi convos.

I’m reminded of an episode of Futurama, the plot was centered around an election and the two candidates were John Jackson and Jack Johnson. They were almost identical, with just a few almost indiscernible differences. The episode was making fun of how when people focus really hard on a couple of differences, something can look as different as night and day- yet to anyone who hasn’t been primed to thoroughly scan for differences, the two things aren't as different as they're being made out to be. I mean, it's not like people are either 100% Fe or 100% Fi- yet these discussions almost make it seem like we're discussing black and white, instead of the infinite in-between shades of grey that we really are.

i think some of the difference is that you're saying it to that person's face and not behind their back. at least when it's to their face it's private and they can defend themself. when it's behind their back, it's defaming them to other people, and they don't have any opportunity to explain their behavior from their own perspective.

why speaking behind someone's back seems instinctually offensive to an FP

even though i have come to a point in my life where i have a trusted friend to vent to, and i do err to the side of checking with a trusted person when i am not sure how to proceed with someone, it still seems a bit disingenuous to talk about someone else, even if it's with good intent. when i check in with you guys here it seems totally okay because it's very anonymous, no one is getting bad impressions of themselves created. but when it's not anonymous, there's no real guarantee that a person you confide in won't pass it on... you just happen to trust them... but that falls through sometimes, and that could create so much pain coming from people who don't even know what they're talking about, who don't know the whole story. in the situation orobas described, she does know the whole story. and if the judgment is wrong, the other person can argue against it. that's the Te aspect, i think, it's almost a challenge in some ways. a posit. "you're this, unless you prove it otherwise."

there's no fair opportunity for that sort of forum when you talk behind someone else's back. it's like holding court without the defendant being allowed to be there, just prosecutor and jury. we hope the jury will see fairly and give good feedback, but it's still sort of unfair to the defendant, who doesn't even have any idea court is taking place. and of course the prosecutor is also the judge, so that's kind of messy too... the Fi method is more like keep your opinions to yourself until the person's behavior becomes unacceptable (it's actively harming someone), at which point you just confront them, either in private with them or in a public forum, but what really matters to it being fair is that they have the opportunity to defend themselves. i imagine this is highly uncomfortable for Fe users, but it is generally a fast and clean method of resolution between two FPs, or an FP and a TJ.

why Fe-style judgment seems instinctually repelling to me

i do understand why the language i use in argument really sucks and can hurt others, and how my style of confrontation can be confusing when there has been little prior warning and suddenly there is a huge angry explosion. i also have grown to a point where i see why bouncing my judgments off others is important, though i probably do not do it as gracefully as i should, not nearly as much so as a Fe dom or aux.

however, i still am not totally convinced that telling someone what you think of them is usually more harmful than spreading negative talk about them. you still think the same thing regardless... and how much harder is it going to be for that person to change when people around them think that they are like that? this Fe perspective really confuses me on an instinctual level, if i don't try hard to change my immediate cognition patterns. my instinct says - why not just talk to them directly? are you just afraid of a reaction from them? i mean that's really how Fe comes off sometimes, kind of cowardly. not saying Fe users are cowardly, but that's kind of how the behavior reads to Fi sometimes. like the Fe user is afraid to stand up to the other person so they talk about the accused behind their backs, where that person can't hurt them. instead, they build up a group of people who see their side of the story while turning them against the person they dislike, and finally they bring the issue to light only when they feel safely bolstered by the people around them. and then you wonder why an accused FP lashes out! the FP has been unwittingly backed into a corner over something they probably had little idea was that much of a problem in the first place, and they are marooned without a social protection function like Fe to navigate with. they're trapped between subjective subjectivity, which you find emo and self-centered, and objective objectivity, which you find overbearing and cruel.

obviously this is not what i think of Fe users, but how it feels sometimes. how the other perspective can seem equally, if not more, damaging.

i know that's not how it feels to you guys, and thanks to many of the wonderful members on this form, z buck and fidelia included, i am making leaps and bounds in understanding the other perspective, but for those who are taken aback, please try to understand from our side of the equation too. you're like ; to us but we feel the same way.

It might be worthwhile here to point out that I won’t vent about someone I’m close to with someone I don’t trust. The people I am closest to- I always vent directly to that person. I don’t get close to people I can’t vent to, for this very reason. If I find myself needing to vent about someone to a third party, then I always hold them at a distance- because it feels too incongruent.

And when it comes to people that I hold at a bit of a distance- I vent to others because it’s what I’d prefer be done myself. I’d personally prefer someone (whom I’m not particularly close to) vent to a third party than have them come directly at me with their complaints- even if I can already tell by their behavior that they’re put off by me. The reason for this is that once I’m directly involved in conflict- the emotion makes it hard for me to think clearly. If venting to someone else helps them shave the excess emotion off and present their grieveance in a calmer, more logical manner- then I’m all for it. If their complaint about me is unwarranted- let’s say they’re a particularly self-centered person who thinks I’m being selfish, but it’s really just them projecting selfishness- then they are probably like that on a regular enough basis that whoever they are venting to is going to take it into account. Really, I just can’t easily handle someone coming at me like a volcano of raw emotion- unless it isn’t about me, then I can help them sort through the feelings. But if it’s about me, and they aren’t especially close to me (like I said, I don’t let people close to me if they erupt too easily)- I really seriously would prefer they take it somewhere else until they calm down.

I only consider it back-stabbing if the person is saying horrible things- not just while angry, but on a somewhat regular basis- while also trying to be excessively nice to my face, as if they want me to believe we have a good relationship. This is especially true if they keep taking advantage of the perks of being in a ‘good relationship’ with me. Whenever I start feeling the need to vent about someone- I at least stop taking advantage of the perks of my friendship/acquaintance with them. Back-stabbing to me also has the connotation of someone spreading negative things in effort to discredit me- which is a separate action than venting. If they aren't doing it to sort through conflicting emotions in their head, but instead are simply trying to make me look bad for personal gain- it isn't venting.

 

[skylights]

@ z buck - i still need to reply to you, working on it

note -- this is all a little mix of theorizing, defending, hypothesizing, etc... a lot of it's akin to brainstorming. as ENxPs are apt to do, i probably seem to be arguing for something harder than i actually believe it, because in a lot of ways typing this stuff out is a way for me to explain it to myself... it's not meant to be 100% my finalized opinions on ENFPs, or NFPs, or Fi/Fe, or any of that. it's just thinking, talking... some of it playing devil's advocate... etc

just so you know

I agree with this.

Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?

i see your points, that makes a lot of sense.

however - it's better, from the Fi perspective, because she would be hurt and insulted if she knew what you were saying about her to other people. you're not just being mean, you're being mean and deceiving.

and how convenient for you if she never hears about it! you can say all the mean things you want to all the time, and never suffer any consequences. that doesn't make it okay or right to say those things.

Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

"you're a parasite"
"you're a piece of trash"
"you're too lazy to take care of your family"

To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

And Fi calls venting cruel?!

well, i don't really agree with the 100% scum thing. i'd say i would not say these things, things like them, etc, until it is clear to me that the person is without a doubt hurting other people (myself included), and shows no likelihood of stopping unless i intervene. so what i'm saying that sometimes i say things in the heat of argument that are exaggerated. i don't know if this is true for INFPs as well - it seems to be more characteristic of ENFPs, i think it's a bad Te/Fi synthesis thing.

actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster. i want to be done with this argument asap, not draw it on for hours. the more concise, the better. and still, i don't find any of those statements nearly as cruel as talking behind someone's back. because if the statement is true, then it's true, and if it's not, then it's not, and it's really sort of irrelevant what i think. if someone calls me a parasite, and i think that's not true, i will tell them why not. and that is between me and them. people have dumb ideas about others all the time, it's usually because we have a hard time seeing one another's point of view. but you bring it up to them, and then it's addressed. they get to shoot it down for the dumb statement that it is.

i mean, outside of the context of argument, that statement is almost funny. you're a parasite! your mom's a parasite.


and then compare that 3rd-grade-level statement with telling your coworker that a mutual acquaintance is scum. that creates such huge bias. you're influencing others' opinion of another person when the other person is not there to defend themselves. do it with more than one person and essentially you're creating a gang. it's like secretive warfare, building up your ammo while you pretend like you're allies. we call that kind of fighting dirty for a reason. it's based in lying.

what i see as "cruel" is a situation in which you're kicking someone who's down - you've already won and you're just rubbing it in because you can. and that's exactly what speaking behind someone's back does. they're completely defenseless, and you're just kicking them until the other person says "hey maybe that's a bad idea". there's no self-control, it's entirely contingent on the other person. this is why Fe fucks up so badly sometimes, because a whole group of people could agree that kicking someone is a-okay as long as no one has any objections to it.

so basically Fe lies to ensure a situation in which they can safely attack someone and the other person has no means of fighting back without essentially committing social suicide.

yet Fi is cruel?

This resonates quite a lot with me - in terms of how I build upon relationships as well as when I back away from them. It's important that I stay true to myself, too, and tie that into what I know of the other person and how THEY are. Because it's important to me that THEY stay who they are and stay true to themselves - as I'm not in the business of changing people. This is where my sense of the Relationship comes in - if I sense that my staying true to myself, and they staying true to themselves, results in a mutually-satisfactory-Relationship-impossibility, I'll not devote myself to it or I'll remove myself from the relationship. This is why yes, commonalities are rather important to me. If we're so diametrically opposed, it's not that I think the other person is 'wrong' or whatever, it's more that the combo of us two together- our natural selves - is not excellent.

Regarding venting. Here's the thing. I don't view the MIL's views/judgments towards the mother as 'cruel' per se. I view it as... she has a right to have that opinion. I may not agree with it, or to the degree of it, but she certainly has a right to it. I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.

this is an excellent explanation, cascade, thank you!

anyway, just to play from the opposite side and continue my argument - this can become a problem if we are not willing to speak up. all of our viewpoints are our own, but Fi comes from the origin of trusting your own feelings to be Right, and so you should instinctively know when something is wrong. obviously, this can be used very immaturely, but when used maturely, a Fi user can stop a gross violation of human rights while a Fe perspective like this could allow it to occur by saying "it's just my subjective viewpoint, it doesn't matter what i think."

of course, i think the solution lies somewhere in the middle, between Fi and Fe. both can be used wisely or foolishly. Fi users need to learn how to temper their own opinions and check them with others, otherwise they will spout completely subjective viewpoints and never be able to associate with others. Fe users need to trust their inner sense of right and wrong more. obviously both type groups also lean on their other functions, Fi using Ne to become more aware of its environment and Fe using Ni to see if others are trustworthy or not.

and most Fe users i know would absolutely balk at anything near human rights violations for other reasons. pretty much everyone i know would, we're all human, after all. but i felt like i should show the rationalizing from my side of the equation, too

 

[cascadeco]

^ Agree that a balance in both -- balancing and formulating your own core values as well as recognizing they are also inherently subjective and thus you're part of a community of individuals with the same right to develop and create their own vales/views -- is probably best.

I don't have time to formulate a long response, but a quick thing to point out is that I think there's a difference between simpy a personal dislike of a person and how they go about doing things, vs. going into human rights violations territory and all of that.

This also ties into what I said earlier about how I go about relationships - just that I too have my own set of values and what I look for out of relationships and what won't tolerate out of them and out of people in my life. I may not feel the need in most cases to actually push back and state that I won't tolerate or stand for something, but frankly that's partly because I *don't* have strong views on many things. But I certainly don't allow negative influences into my life or won't support things I am against. I am just perhaps not as... needful of pushing my stance/beliefs? I am not sure.

In any event, it's interesting how differently we perceive what is being 'kind' vs. what is unkind.

 

[Totenkindly]

Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

"you're a parasite"
"you're a piece of trash"
"you're too lazy to take care of your family"

To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

And Fi calls venting cruel?!

Yeah, I think out of the three of my kids, I found the ESFP most hurtful because he is most prone to actually saying really horrible things to other family members and then excusing it after he's no longer angry by, "Well, I was just angry / I didn't really mean it." Although, at the time, he really did mean it... there was no discernable difference, based on his emotion and behavior and wording.

For a number of years, this was his standard modus operandi, and it took us a long time to work with him so that he could find more productive approaches to family interactions. "Short-term" honesty (yes, we know you're angry, you don't have to abuse people for them to realize that) is not as true as "long-term" honesty which expresses the truth of your commitments to another human being and their well-being.

The INFJ and INTP are far more prone to make sure what they say matches their long-term intentions, despite occasionally having vents of their own.

 

[Lauren]

It might be worthwhile here to point out that I won’t vent about someone I’m close to with someone I don’t trust. The people I am closest to- I always vent directly to that person. I don’t get close to people I can’t vent to, for this very reason. If I find myself needing to vent about someone to a third party, then I always hold them at a distance- because it feels too incongruent.

And when it comes to people that I hold at a bit of a distance- I vent to others because it’s what I’d prefer be done myself. I’d personally prefer someone (whom I’m not particularly close to) vent to a third party than have them come directly at me with their complaints- even if I can already tell by their behavior that they’re put off by me. The reason for this is that once I’m directly involved in conflict- the emotion makes it hard for me to think clearly. If venting to someone else helps them shave the excess emotion off and present their grieveance in a calmer, more logical manner- then I’m all for it. If their complaint about me is unwarranted- let’s say they’re a particularly self-centered person who thinks I’m being selfish, but it’s really just them projecting selfishness- then they are probably like that on a regular enough basis that whoever they are venting to is going to take it into account. Really, I just can’t easily handle someone coming at me like a volcano of raw emotion- unless it isn’t about me, then I can help them sort through the feelings. But if it’s about me, and they aren’t especially close to me (like I said, I don’t let people close to me if they erupt too easily)- I really seriously would prefer they take it somewhere else until they calm down.

I only consider it back-stabbing if the person is saying horrible things- not just while angry, but on a somewhat regular basis- while also trying to be excessively nice to my face, as if they want me to believe we have a good relationship. This is especially true if they keep taking advantage of the perks of being in a ‘good relationship’ with me. Whenever I start feeling the need to vent about someone- I at least stop taking advantage of the perks of my friendship/acquaintance with them. Back-stabbing to me also has the connotation of someone spreading negative things in effort to discredit me- which is a separate action than venting. If they aren't doing it to sort through conflicting emotions in their head, but instead are simply trying to make me look bad for personal gain- it isn't venting.

I relate to everything you've said here. If I feel that someone has other motives other than they genuinely like me, then I will, as you say, stop taking advantage of the perks of the acquaintance. Recently I realized someone I worked with was just being friendly with me because she wanted information from me about a close friend of mine. I started to distance myself from her when I realized what she was doing. I think when someone does this, it's likely a pattern in their lives. I'll just remove myself and say very little. Someone who is a back-stabber has issues that have nothing to do with me--they are projecting their own insecurities on to everyone they feel might be a threat to them, which is almost everyone. They put others down to make themselves seem better. However, other people aren't usually fooled by this grandiouse behavior. I've learned to stand my ground and push back with people like this (only one I've known) because they will crumble when they realize you're not afraid of them.

I agree with what Cascadeco said as well. I don't impose myself on others. I usually sit back, watch, and listen. I don't judge someone on a moment's behavior. I'll take into account that I don't know what else is going on in their lives. I also look at past behavior and the whole of our relationship.

 

[Orangey]

however - it's better, from the Fi perspective, because she would be hurt and insulted if she knew what you were saying about her to other people. you're not just being mean, you're being mean and deceiving.

and how convenient for you if she never hears about it! you can say all the mean things you want to all the time, and never suffer any consequences. that doesn't make it okay or right to say those things.

well, i don't really agree with the 100% scum thing. i'd say i would not say these things until it is clear to me that the person is without a doubt hurting other people (myself included), and shows no likelihood of stopping unless i intervene. so what i'm saying that sometimes i say things in the heat of argument that are exaggerated. i don't know if this is true for INFPs as well - it seems to be more characteristic of ENFPs, i think it's a bad Te/Fi synthesis thing.

actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster. i want to be done with this argument asap, not draw it on for hours. the more concise, the better. and still, i don't find any of those statements nearly as cruel as talking behind someone's back. because if the statement is true, then it's true, and if it's not, then it's not, and it's really sort of irrelevant what i think. if someone calls me a parasite, and i think that's not true, i will tell them why not. and that is between me and them. people have dumb ideas about others all the time, it's usually because we have a hard time seeing one another's point of view. but you bring it up to them, and then it's addressed. they get to shoot it down for the dumb statement that it is.

i mean, outside of the context of argument, that statement is almost funny. you're a parasite! your mom's a parasite.


and then compare that 3rd-grade-level statement with telling your coworker that a mutual acquaintance is scum. that creates such huge bias. you're influencing others' opinion of another person when the other person is not there to defend themselves. do it with more than one person and essentially you're creating a gang. it's like secretive warfare, building up your ammo while you pretend like you're allies. we call that kind of fighting dirty for a reason. it's based in lying.

what i see as "cruel" is a situation in which you're kicking someone who's down - you've already won and you're just rubbing it in because you can. and that's exactly what speaking behind someone's back does. they're completely defenseless, and you're just kicking them until the other person says "hey maybe that's a bad idea". there's no self-control, it's entirely contingent on the other person. this is why Fe fucks up so badly sometimes, because a whole group of people could agree that kicking someone is a-okay as long as no one has any objections to it.

so basically Fe lies to ensure a situation in which they can safely attack someone and the other person has no means of fighting back without essentially committing social suicide.

yet Fi is cruel?

But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back. Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.

 

[cascadeco]

But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

This is a good distinction. With the former.... I'm thinking of malicious office gossip, or junior high/high school cliques/talk. And goodness... Fi-er's were/are just as guilty as Fe'ers in those scenarios. It's awful. THAT sort of stuff isn't the venting being discussed in this thread.

Well, at least that's not what I do when I vent - I'm never outright saying that a person sucks or they're rotten/useless to their core (lol), I'm usually venting because I am either confused and frustrated, or else it's because I have to work/be involved with the person in some capacity, even though I don't want to be, and therefore will vent on the situation itself or why *I* have issues working with them. As has been already mentioned in here, sometimes this could be to calibrate off of someone else, and get input, other times if I know it's just one of those things and they're who they are, I'm who I am, and nothing's going to change things, then it can be more of a release/purge mechanism for me. Keep in mind, though, if I ever had any actual things to say to the person that would improve things, ormake the relationship work more smoothly, I'd communicate that. It's just more of what I'll call the 'irreconcilable' personality conflicts - just that recognition that we're very different, but still need to work with each other - that might be where pure venting/release to a trusted friend would come in.

Venting typically has an origin in frustration with interpersonal dynamics, and/or tangible external impacts to environment/ your own situation as a result of the other persons' behavior; gossip/mudslinging is actually denigrating or mocking someone elses' core self/character.

 

[Neutralpov]

I have been trying to read this thread to learn more but this is the second time reading it I just exit and find myself angry or frustrated from the back and forth here or something. Harumph!

Heather- Leaving thread and walking down hall at work with small storm cloud over her head now. :yim_phbbbbt:

 

[Tallulah]

This is what I'd typed yesterday right before the forum went down:


But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.

I have to be honest, if someone was helping me and then out of the blue, they came at me with extra emo and told me to quit being a fucking parasite, and a piece of trash? I would probably never speak to them again. Like Z said, I would infinitely, infinitely prefer someone vent to someone else, where their ventee might help them get some perspective on the situation and help them come up with a plan of attack, rather than them directing a volcano of emotion at me.

I'm never going to just trash talk someone and schmooze them to their face. When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.

 

[Randomnity]

This is what I'd typed yesterday right before the forum went down:


But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.

I have to be honest, if someone was helping me and then out of the blue, they came at me with extra emo and told me to quit being a fucking parasite, and a piece of trash? I would probably never speak to them again. Like Z said, I would infinitely, infinitely prefer someone vent to someone else, where their ventee might help them get some perspective on the situation and help them come up with a plan of attack, rather than them directing a volcano of emotion at me.

I'm never going to just trash talk someone and schmooze them to their face. When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.

I agree soooo hard.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Some of this is becoming very individualized. But, I do relate to some aspects, so I am interested in exploring that.

that you're saying it to that person's face and not behind their back. at least when it's to their face it's private and they can defend themself. when it's behind their back, it's defaming them to other people, and they don't have any opportunity to explain their behavior from their own perspective.

I do relate to this. A saying that frequently comes to my mind is that I wouldn't say something about you to anyone else that I wouldn't be prepared to say to you directly. I try to live up to that, yet sometimes my feelings do get the better of me in that I will vent some of my frustration out loud to my hubs or a close friend. But I try to couch it in the most neutral way I can, knowing that my words define me as much as my actions. And I know that if I need to vent to someone else, I am somehow ignoring the fact that a direct (yet politically correct) approach is needed in this situation, so I must examine myself and make that happen. It's like, if I need to vent, I've let things get too far. So I need to either act on these emotional signals or let go of them.

In my twenties, I didn't know how to do this, and often took advantage of opportunities to withdraw without confronting. For example, after a move, just letting the draining relationships naturally drift away. Now, I try to be more head-on, as I feel it's a generally healthier approach, for me and for the other person I feel in conflict with.

there's no fair opportunity for that sort of forum when you talk behind someone else's back. it's like holding court without the defendant being allowed to be there, just prosecutor and jury. we hope the jury will see fairly and give good feedback, but it's still sort of unfair to the defendant, who doesn't even have any idea court is taking place. and of course the prosecutor is also the judge, so that's kind of messy too... the Fi method is more like keep your opinions to yourself until the person's behavior becomes unacceptable (it's actively harming someone), at which point you just confront them, either in private with them or in a public forum, but what really matters to it being fair is that they have the opportunity to defend themselves. i imagine this is highly uncomfortable for Fe users, but it is generally a fast and clean method of resolution between two FPs, or an FP and a TJ.

It's the reason why the court system tries to be as open and transparent as possible. The accused has a right to face his accuser. Let the facts be presented and let the jury decide.

my instinct says - why not just talk to them directly? are you just afraid of a reaction from them? i mean that's really how Fe comes off sometimes, kind of cowardly. not saying Fe users are cowardly, but that's kind of how the behavior reads to Fi sometimes. like the Fe user is afraid to stand up to the other person so they talk about the accused behind their backs, where that person can't hurt them. instead, they build up a group of people who see their side of the story while turning them against the person they dislike, and finally they bring the issue to light only when they feel safely bolstered by the people around them.

Yes, that.

why ENFPs say mean things when they yell

IDK, I can feel pretty angry but I still sanitize what comes out of my mouth. Since I can't predict how badly I could hurt you with my words, I have to defer to caution. I still have a filter there.

haha I often think of ENFP's as unfitered now that I type that!

i do think it's also immensely important to note that we don't have Fe to create distance with, so ENFPs end up pushing with spiteful Fi and a barrage of Te. we don't have the advantage of being able to wall off our mental space with Fe and introvert into Ni - we have to continue to be receptive to our environments because they are our primary source of information (unless we are expected to change type overnight). so an explosive argument like that really is just a GET THE HELL AWAY STOP IT PLEASE NOW. our judgment requires introverting the Feeling around us, so we are introverting all that negativity that has been building - you can see how it would be very painful to experience something like this, and why we might react in an explosive sort of manner once we deem it appropriate to finally speak. and why it's so fast and intense. i assume this is also why NFPs seem to have a quicker "recovery" time than NFJs after an argument - we lack the ability to block off our environments, so it'd be logical for us to want to reconcile with the exterior as soon as possible.

I did feel resonance with this too ... I cannot help but be attuned to the emotional timbre of the room, asking me to ignore it is like asking me to stop breathing or something. I do know the feeling of wanting to make the other people back off, to get away from me, to stop bombarding me with negative emotions.

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Re saying colorful stuff in the heat of the moment: "Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary?"

Not for me. But I am a 9 in the enneagram too, and an introvert first position, so perhaps that accounts for some difference.

-----

Per usual, still catching up- but I at least wanted to get this response to PB up.

Thanks!

^It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder how many E/I attitude differences we ‘create’ in this forum, because I can relate so well. But then, what you wrote is exactly why I vent to a third party- hoping those missing pieces will be revealed before actually confronting the person. I hear the arguments presented- about how people can pick up on the judgments through unspoken cues that someone is having negative judgments- and I agree that just because we don’t voice negative judgments to a person doesn’t mean that person isn’t affected. But I do think that actually voicing the negative judgments to the person can have a more detrimental affect than voicing them to someone else- the negative judgments are there, whether we try to hide them or not (and so, will affect the person regardless), but voicing them to a third party can clear them up (by hopefully getting some of the missing pieces). It *seems* like Fi’ers are maybe better at holding it in longer and processing more on their own? I suspect Fi and Fe alike don’t wholly trust their own extrapolations, but Fe’ers need to put them ‘out there’ for feedback before Fi’ers do- just as Ti’ers aren’t always RIGHT, but they can process more internally before putting their thoughts ‘out there’.

Agreed; very well said. I will process emotions inside to a much greater degree I think than just the ideas I have bouncing around in my head.

This is where I’m getting stuck in extraverting the Ni/Ti mess of information that comes to mind. I’ve put *a lot* of thought, actually, into how Fi/Te processes the subjective function in a subjective way and the objective function in an objective way- and how Fe/Ti processes the subjective in an objective way and the objective in a subjective way- for a while now. But I’m having difficulty extroverting the information in an intelligible way. It looks like some people have already hit on it though- I take the collective of values into account while interacting with my environment because I don’t consider my own values more important that others’ values. There’s a lot more to it, but being stuck in articulating it is the reason it’s taken me so long to respond- so I’m going to skip over it for now. [edit:] When I say 'extraverting information', I mean 'extraverting theories'. I have theories I'd like to bounce off others, but I'm having a hard time articulating them.

Me too; it's like jello with fruit bits to me right now. How eloquent is that?

I’m reminded of an episode of Futurama, the plot was centered around an election and the two candidates were John Jackson and Jack Johnson. They were almost identical, with just a few almost indiscernible differences. The episode was making fun of how when people focus really hard on a couple of differences, something can look as different as night and day- yet to anyone who hasn’t been primed to thoroughly scan for differences, the two things aren't as different as they're being made out to be. I mean, it's not like people are either 100% Fe or 100% Fi- yet these discussions almost make it seem like we're discussing black and white, instead of the infinite in-between shades of grey that we really are.

I agree. I looked for that Futurama clip to post it here; not on YouTube that I could find.

-----

actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster.

Yes, I think the explanation of metaphors is sound here and well-expressed. Although I am not likely to bust out with that sentence myself, the phrase "you are like a parasite" is not literal to me, it says everything a much longer and more precise statement says, without the mental torture of trying to find the exact words. Anyone who has read any number of my posts in the past can tell how much I rely on them to convey my thoughts and feelings.

So, I get this. But would I say it? Almost 100% no ... but that doesn't make me any better. It just means I have some differing habits in this area.

-----

But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

This is a good distinction. With the former.... I'm thinking of malicious office gossip, or junior high/high school cliques/talk. And goodness... Fi-er's were/are just as guilty as Fe'ers in those scenarios. It's awful. THAT sort of stuff isn't the venting being discussed in this thread.

I think the line between venting and back-stabbing is kinda grey to Fi users, we aren't as adept maybe at seeing when the line is crossed? I find the language to be about the same color (the kids run around like dogs vs you are a parasite) but I know in my head what it would take for me to say either out loud. I would have to feel pretty condemnatory indeed, and it would make me feel like I was violating an Fi value to say it anyway.

 

[skylights]

adding a little disclaimer, this goes for my last post too -- what i say is generally all a little mix of theorizing, defending, hypothesizing, etc... a lot of it's akin to brainstorming. as ENxPs are apt to do, i probably seem to be arguing for something harder than i actually believe it, because in a lot of ways typing this stuff out is a way for me to explain it to myself... it's not meant to be 100% my finalized opinions on ENFPs, or NFPs, or Fi/Fe, or any of that. it's just thinking, talking... some of it playing devil's advocate... etc.

I have been trying to read this thread to learn more but this is the second time reading it I just exit and find myself angry or frustrated from the back and forth here or something. Harumph!

Heather- Leaving thread and walking down hall at work with small storm cloud over her head now. :yim_phbbbbt:

sorry

i think a lot of negative emotions get stirred up during this thread... lots of misunderstanding one another. it helps when i get upset if i remember that the whole reason we are on this website and talking in the first place is to help understand ourselves and one another, so it's for a good overall purpose... even if we get a little mired in the difficulties while working through things...

--

The thing is- with Ti, there’s really no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT. I especially don’t think it’s possible to come up with immutable facts where the human mind is concerned. I think Ti likes things to stay relatively ‘open’. It wants to see how far the terms match the underlying phenomenom, but it’s also careful about over doing it and throwing things in the pot (into the definiton) that don’t belong there. So as far as ‘final product’ is concerned: it’s all relative. What Ti’ers come up with is more of a ‘finished product’, they are more careful about the definitions they put forth- but there is no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT, there’s only a neverending game of getting it more and more accurate (the external reality will never be able to reflect the ideal accuracy that Ti craves). [edit:] I'm guessing it's the same with Fi- that value judgments or criticisms put forth aren't FINAL per se, but it generally feels like you've put more deliberation and care into them before putting them 'out there', yes?

yes, for sure.

It kind of seems like the primary diff here might be that NFPs/Fi’ers don’t pay as much attention to refining external ‘shared’ definitions, and focus on refining understanding of the solitary underlying phenomenon; the work of thoroughly refining ‘shared’ definitions seems maybe superflous (Te wants quick ‘shared’ definitions). Ti (at least, as presented in these threads) seems focused on finding the most accurate and fair definition of the underlying phenomenon possible, to be able to find universals in the collective of solitary underlying phenomenons and carefully sculpt a ‘shared’ definition from this collective; delving into one’s own solitary underlying phenomenon too long (without comparing it others) loses its meaning after a while. I think a lot of the communication conflict in these threads results from that difference. Does that sound like a fair assessment?

yeah, that does.

and i think maybe even in application, i feel like we should hold off on judgments about people until we really know what they are like. because personal identity is so important, there is nothing more important to a person than their self, it's the only thing they really have... so we should be careful to be so quick to make judgments about people. but with T stuff, it's not such a big deal to me, because if the logic works, then it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't, and we'll change our ideas around. we're never going to have the full truth so it's not such a big deal if the Ti stuff isn't always quite right. i guess maybe it seems the same way to Fe, that it's okay to put opinions about people out there, because if it's true, it's true, and if it's not, it's not. i don't know if i'm getting this right, but i could understand things that way.

Expressed in more personal terms: it makes my head spin sometimes to listen to someone go on and on and on about emo problems in a circular way. At the same time, I *love love love* when someone goes on and on and on about theories (that I’m interested in)- in a circular way, without a clear ‘goal’, just for the exploration of ideas. Ironically, I love going back and forth with people on theories about feelings- noticing what causes them in people, why certain things are catalysts, whether there are feelings that seem universal or not- but talking about one person’s feelings (without being able to back up and apply it theoretically to a broader scope- simply talking about the one person’s feelings) absolutely wears me out after a little while. It feels stifling to me. It’s holding me in a place where my vocabulary is very limited. I’m sure there are fascinating nuances to explore there- of this I absolutely trust, because I’m the same way with Ti- but I don’t perceive them. They only become fascinating nuances to me once they can directly translate into some universal theoretical template to feed Ti/Fe. Or something.

huh, that's interesting. yeah i kind of feel the opposite way. what do you mean about stifling/ no vocabulary? like talking about different kinds of sadness/anger, or something different?

For the record, I may have overstated how exhausting simply listening to emo venting is before- if I care about someone, and it’s how they handle things, then I’ll gladly to put up with it to make someone feel better. It’s when I start to feel like they are taking it for granted that I start feeling exhausted by it. If they aren’t using me as a sounding board to ultimately improve their situation- but rather are using me as a sympathetic ear, enabling them to continue in a bad situation- then I begin to lose patience. It’s still taxing for me- but there are some friends I have with whom I’ve learned not to take their initial venting with as much weight as my own. Once I realize they aren’t putting forth ‘finished product’, and that I don’t have to give what they’re saying much weight- then I can turn off my ‘hard core empathizer’ and pay less attention. Really, in the end, what taxes me is when they keep coming back and complaining about the same things without being willing to take action to make the problem better. I’ll do it to help someone, to achieve practical results, but I never do it out of idle fascination- unless, like I said, I’m seeing something in it that I can apply to some larger universal scope.

well, and like i mentioned before, it's the same thing with listening to a Fe user... when it feels like they don't appreciate how much energy you are putting into listening to all this negative stuff, without them seeming to be getting anywhere in terms of how they feel, that's hard too. it's interesting to know that you process pretty much the opposite way. thanks

--

But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

sure, but i feel like this kind of falls under the same heading of "how am i supposed to know"... how are you supposed to know i don't mean what i imply when i'm yelling? how do i know you don't mean what you imply when you're venting? i mean hopefully the other person knows, or hopefully you tell them, but i've been on the wrong end of both.

i think what PB said is true --

I think the line between venting and back-stabbing is kinda grey to Fi users, we aren't as adept maybe at seeing when the line is crossed?

yeah... it seems like the intent doesn't really matter, you're still putting that negative stuff out there. even if the other person knows that, it doesn't make what you're saying any better. they're still hurtful words.

is there a more clear difference to Fe users? how do you react differently... do you take venting in more confidence, do you take it less seriously? if i parallel this with my understanding an argument as a sort of reality-removed time, then i assume it's the same for you listening to someone vent. the same rules don't apply.

Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back.

huh. no actually... that's interesting. in general i assume that people are going to say much worse things in face-to-face disagreement, because they are heated with anger. i mean, i'm sure that people have said stuff to friends about me being annoying, or some other little complaints, but i would expect them to be much more intense during a fight when they are amped up with stress rather than while talking coolly with others.

Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.

eh, i don't think you need to refer to it as piety. it's really not any more moralistic as saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting to another person. but no, i really don't think it serves the self only either. the problem i have is not so much that the speaking about others occurs - i mean everyone talks about everyone - but that the person in question doesn't get to know too. i feel like if people are annoyed with me, then i want to know, because i might not realize how i'm coming off and might be very embarrassed to know, and want to change. not that i want to hear from every random person on the street, but when it's someone closer to me, it would be good. it just seems like there's an unfair disconnect otherwise.

Right? It takes a self-centered person to grant their own opinion so much weight in such matters.

but shouldn't you care enough about the people close to you to confront them when you think that they're doing something really hurtful? i don't understand how on one hand you could say everyone's perspective is valid, but then turn around and say one isn't, if that makes sense. like everyone has the right to their own opinion, but their opinion doesn't matter enough to be worthy of expression. if that's true, then how can you trust yourself to act outwardly at all?

--

But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.

i do still feel that calling children dogs carries that connotation. even if the exact wording doesn't mean that, it's just too close in my mind.

both things are shitty though. i don't think either is okay. i just feel like it's easier to understand why someone in the heat and confusion and all the crazy emotions that can occur in argument would say something mean, while when you're talking to someone else in a safe, private conversation, there's really no reason to use wording like that. i guess maybe it can feel to others that you can "let go" while you're around a trusted friend, while you need to be cordial to a person's face, but it still feels weird to me.

When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.

i think i just see it from the opposite light... i don't hold people as accountable when they're yelling at me because confronting someone is hard and confusing and unpleasant and you're all keyed up and scared and defensive and frustrated and everything like that.

i guess i kind of always thought an "argument" was a contained space, where you get all your frustrations out and work through things with someone. that it's kind of removed from reality... that it doesn't "count" in some ways. you get frustrated, say some dumb things, and then you're done. i guess others feel the same way about venting to someone else. in truth they both seem to have their ups and downs. i don't see either perspective as much better than the other.

--

A saying that frequently comes to my mind is that I wouldn't say something about you to anyone else that I wouldn't be prepared to say to you directly. I try to live up to that, yet sometimes my feelings do get the better of me in that I will vent some of my frustration out loud to my hubs or a close friend. But I try to couch it in the most neutral way I can, knowing that my words define me as much as my actions. And I know that if I need to vent to someone else, I am somehow ignoring the fact that a direct (yet politically correct) approach is needed in this situation, so I must examine myself and make that happen. It's like, if I need to vent, I've let things get too far. So I need to either act on these emotional signals or let go of them.

yeah, i feel this way too. if i need to vent it's gotten to a point where i can't handle it on my own, and that's not good.

So, I get this. But would I say it? Almost 100% no ... but that doesn't make me any better. It just means I have some differing habits in this area.

well, and i don't know if i'd say that either. it totally depends on the situation. orobas has expressed how her sister has been cut off from the family as a whole - obviously she has done some very frustrating things, and i can only imagine that this wording is in proportion with that frustration.

and i just feel like i should point out, that it's rare that i yell at someone and say stuff like this. it's usually only with someone i am somewhat close to and feel comfortable speaking frankly to (i know, i know, this only makes it worse in Fe eyes), and over an issue that has been going on for a very long time and that i have unsuccessfully attempted to deal with. it's a point of desperation, not a usual reaction.

 

[Orangey]

sure, but i feel like this kind of falls under the same heading of "how am i supposed to know"... how are you supposed to know i don't mean what i imply when i'm yelling? how do i know you don't mean what you imply when you're venting? i mean hopefully the other person knows, or hopefully you tell them, but i've been on the wrong end of both.

Well, you use your judgment to discern what's going on in any particular case. In general I find that most people are not trying to be malicious (and when they are, it's extremely obvious, no matter how sly they think they are), so when someone's language comes across as more emotionally heightened than usual, I tend to chalk it up to frustration/not take their words as seriously.

But that's only in the case of third-party venting. If someone's had the nerve to "vent" uncontrollably to my face about ME (which, at that point, it's lost its "safe" quality and moved into the territory of real hurtfulness) then I just find them annoying and sometimes even pathetic.

i think what PB said is true --

yeah... it seems like the intent doesn't really matter, you're still putting that negative stuff out there. even if the other person knows that, it doesn't make what you're saying any better. they're still hurtful words.

Words are not in and of themselves bad. It's what they do. So if I say nasty things about another person to my wall, I'm not really doing anything wrong. No harm is being done in the world.

is there a more clear difference to Fe users? how do you react differently... do you take venting in more confidence, do you take it less seriously?

Yes. Why wouldn't you?

huh. no actually... that's interesting. in general i assume that people are going to say much worse things in face-to-face disagreement, because they are heated with anger. i mean, i'm sure that people have said stuff to friends about me being annoying, or some other little complaints, but i would expect them to be much more intense during a fight when they are amped up with stress rather than while talking coolly with others.

It seems to me that people generally do not "put it all out there" to others. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, but I tend to assume that whatever is said to my face is only a portion of what is truly felt or thought. Society wouldn't be nearly as functional if that were not the case, non?

eh, i don't think you need to refer to it as piety. it's really not any more moralistic as saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting to another person.

I'm a bit confused here, as I don't remember anybody saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting. I said it's a form of piety because, if the other person is not being directly harmed by your words, then the only thing stopping you from saying them is your own feelings of guilt.

but no, i really don't think it serves the self only either. the problem i have is not so much that the speaking about others occurs - i mean everyone talks about everyone - but that the person in question doesn't get to know too. i feel like if people are annoyed with me, then i want to know, because i might not realize how i'm coming off and might be very embarrassed to know, and want to change. not that i want to hear from every random person on the street, but when it's someone closer to me, it would be good. it just seems like there's an unfair disconnect otherwise.

Personally, I would not care to know. I tend to think that others' complaints about me are more their problem than mine, so as long as they keep it to themselves, I have no reason to fret about it. Of course, if I'm behaving in such a way as to cause social dysfunction (which is unlikely because I'm usually very aware, if not of my behavior, then at least to other people's reactions to it), it is in everyone's interest to let me know, but I don't want to hear about it in a big burst of anger. If the person is that angry that they can't control themselves, I'd rather they cool off before speaking to me and THEN tell me in a rational manner. I can honestly think of no circumstances in which language like "you're scum" is called for in direct confrontation. In fact, I think that kind of thing might well qualify as fighting words.

It's the same with saying things to other people's faces. If I find someone utterly repugnant, it does not behoove me to blow up in their face saying things like "you're scum, you're a parasite." If anything, that will simply cause them to react in kind (potentially leading to violence), and whatever true message I may have had will be lost in the mode of delivery.

but shouldn't you care enough about the people close to you to confront them when you think that they're doing something really hurtful?

Sure, but there's a time and place, and it has to be warranted.

i don't understand how on one hand you could say everyone's perspective is valid, but then turn around and say one isn't, if that makes sense. like everyone has the right to their own opinion, but their opinion doesn't matter enough to be worthy of expression. if that's true, then how can you trust yourself to act outwardly at all?

To say that everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value. I try to make sure that when I do act outwardly, I have a better foundation for my opinion than simply that it's my right to have one. Part of that involves, of course, measuring my opinion against those of others.

i just feel like it's easier to understand why someone in the heat and confusion and all the crazy emotions that can occur in argument would say something mean, while when you're talking to someone else in a safe, private conversation, there's really no reason to use wording like that.
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i think i just see it from the opposite light... i don't hold people as accountable when they're yelling at me because confronting someone is hard and confusing and unpleasant and you're all keyed up and scared and defensive and frustrated and everything like that.

It's funny, I think quite the opposite. It's much better, from my perspective, to dispel any excess anger in a place where it has no consequences than to just throw it out there whenever I feel like it, even to the person's face. It seems like you think the utterance of mean things is more excusable if it's in the heat of confrontation, since the person will likely not be in control of their emotions; I tend to think, however, that it's less excusable, since the consequences will be far greater for you and the other person if angry words are exchanged during confrontation than in any other scenario. So where you view third-party venting as underhanded and deceitful, I see it as a more responsible way to treat excessive feelings.

i guess maybe it can feel to others that you can "let go" while you're around a trusted friend, while you need to be cordial to a person's face.

Yes.

i guess i kind of always thought an "argument" was a contained space, where you get all your frustrations out and work through things with someone. that it's kind of removed from reality... that it doesn't "count" in some ways. you get frustrated, say some dumb things, and then you're done.

This is a nice concept I guess, but I think that in reality it's quite naive. You're never going to escape hurt feelings and resentment once you've said something that rubs the other person the wrong way (or they've done so to you, especially if you're a sensitive person), no matter how much you both may have agreed that whatever is said in this "contained space" doesn't "count." If anything, you're just going to fuel one another's feelings of aggression. Thus if venting is necessary, then it's best if it's done in a place where it really is "safe," such as to a close friend.

 

[Tallulah]

I absolutely agree with what Orangey's said, above. I do understand that Fi doesn't work that way, and that Fi users feel better handling things in the manner skylights has laid out. The problem comes when a Fe user and a Fi user have an argument. What's an acceptable compromise? I'll be honest and say that the Fi way in the past has kind of been a turning point in a few friendships, and not in a good way. I've decided to part ways with some people after being yelled at out of nowhere (but this was also before I had any understanding of Fe or Fi--I just knew I felt absolutely attacked and misunderstood). I would know more where they were coming from now, but it's still not a comfortable way of operating.

Another thing I thought of in reading Orangey's response to skylights. I deal with emotional things by creating a little distance so I can examine them. I don't trust my feelings in the heat of the moment. I can easily let things become more important than they actually are. I can handle venting because I know it's not directed at me, and I can provide a clearer, more objective perspective. If someone is angry directly AT me, I lose all perspective. I don't know whether I've actually done anything wrong, and I can't examine my behavior. I go on the defensive. Also, I've found when an Fi user gets angry enough to talk to me, they point Te at me, and it makes me feel scolded, which makes me SUPER not want to give them what they want, because I feel like I'm not being treated like an adult. So it's a big ole cluster, obviously. And having lots of emotion directed at me kind of turns me off, because I feel like the person isn't controlling their emotions. It feels irresponsible to a Fe user. It feels like they're imposing on me to make themselves feel better, when sometimes they need not have involved me at all, because an alternate perspective from a disinterested party may have given them the information they needed (i.e., she's been neglecting you because she's up to her freaking eyeballs in work stuff right now and can't handle a social life).

 

[onemoretime]

Well, you use your judgment to discern what's going on in any particular case. In general I find that most people are not trying to be malicious (and when they are, it's extremely obvious, no matter how sly they think they are), so when someone's language comes across as more emotionally heightened than usual, I tend to chalk it up to frustration/not take their words as seriously.

But that's only in the case of third-party venting. If someone's had the nerve to "vent" uncontrollably to my face about ME (which, at that point, it's lost its "safe" quality and moved into the territory of real hurtfulness) then I just find them annoying and sometimes even pathetic.

"Venting" in my face like that means it's time to fight, either verbally or physically. That's why it's not done.