[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[Esoteric Wench]

But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

I thought this very profound Orobas! This is EXACTLY how it feels for me. EXACTLY.

Sometimes I wish I didn't understand these Fi/Te and Fe/Ti differences so well. It's like I've seen behind the curtain now. There is a naive joy in not knowing how differently other people think about the world... Like I used to think that everyone felt the same way about not re-aligning one's values just for the sake of personal allegiance.

This brings up an interesting question about what is personal allegiance to an Fi-user versus an Fe-user. At least for me, I think that if I share my inner emo with you, that means I trust you and am giving you my allegiance. Note that I'm not sharing my conclusions, but I'm willing to share my process which is a very personal and private thing for me. And for me to make myself vulnerable to you in this way means I trust you and care for you and have got your back. It does not mean I'll always agree with you because my first allegiance is to my Fi-value system. But within the scope of that value system, I'll take a bullet for you.

This kind of Fi allegiance sort of reminds me the kind of allegiance two self-proclaimed Christians might share. They might be friends and display allegiance to one another, but there would be an understanding that never would they ask for nor want the other person to violate their faith for the sake of allegiance or friendship. In other words, God first, then family and friends.

^^^^
Well in Fi terms, this would be Fi values first, then family and friends.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Yes! In fact, I wouldn't want the other person to just assimilate my points of view or they would be of no use to reflect back what I "look" like or offer anything helpful to me either. I'm already really putting myself out there though by expressing something that I'm worried or upset about. I want to see people in a good light. I'm trying to reconcile conflicting emotions to do something better with them so I don't cause harm. I haven't made up my mind that someone is good or bad, so much as trying to figure out how all the pieces of them fit together and then what implications that has for how I should relate to them. Sometimes I'm trying to decide when there are conflicting emotions, how much percentage of weighting each of those emotions should get to see the total picture accurately.

If I am acting uncharacteristically harsh or unreasonable, then I'd be grateful for the other person to realize that this is not what I am normally like and ask enough questions to understand why I am reacting in this way. I need questions that help me determine for myself things like "How long have you felt this way?" "What message do you feel like the other person is sending that is bothering you so much?" "What things have you already tried? How did it work?" What options do you figure you have from your perspective?" "What would you see as the idea outcome of this for both parties involved?" "How do you think you could get there". By asking questions like this, you are still allowing me to be in control of what is going on and you are tacitly validating my feelings and helping to clarify the underlying issues that need to be solved. This is also a time where rather than advice, you can offer some alternative perspectives or motives etc that I may not have considered, so that I am working with more complete information. You can offer another way of looking at it or add information that puts it into a better context. Neither withdrawing, or mutely judging my judgementalness is helpful or kind to me. I need to feel that you can see that I am normally a credible, competent, kind person before I trust that you are going to have perspective that is going to be beneficial to me.

Fidelia, I printed this out so I could ponder and read over and over. I think this is exactly what I needed to hear to begin to get my head around how it feels for you and other Fe users. And, my gut tells me there is something particularly INFJ about this response and it rings true for the INFJs I hold dear to me.

Thanks so much for posting!

 

[Orangey]

At least for me, I think that if I share my inner emo with you, that means I trust you and am giving you my allegiance. Note that I'm not sharing my conclusions, but I'm willing to share my process which is a very personal and private thing for me. And for me to make myself vulnerable to you in this way means I trust you and care for you and have got your back. It does not mean I'll always agree with you because my first allegiance is to my Fi-value system. But within the scope of that value system, I'll take a bullet for you.

This kind of Fi allegiance sort of reminds me the kind of allegiance two self-proclaimed Christians might share. They might be friends and display allegiance to one another, but there would be an understanding that never would they ask for nor want the other person to violate their faith for the sake of allegiance or friendship. In other words, God first, then family and friends.

^^^^
Well in Fi terms, this would be Fi values first, then family and friends.

Hope that makes sense.

I really, really think this is pretty much true for EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I really, really think this is pretty much true for EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET.

I'm not trying to imply that Fe users don't have values or that they don't take them seriously. Sorry if that's how it came across. Not my intention.

Maybe it's just that Fi users FEAR that they are being asked to violate their Fi-values because they see everything through their internalized Fi value lens.

But there is something different here. Could you take a stab at trying to explain the differences between Fe and Fi-ness in this area? Thanks in advance. I'd love to hear your assessment.

 

[Southern Kross]

But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

I really understand what you're feeling here. Its a tough situation...

Yeah, this is where things get a little harder to differentiate. A healthy Fe user is not asking you to be an ally without having your own opinions. What we're asking you to do is hear that we're frustrated and validate those feelings, THEN give us some perspective. It's only when you judge us as being mean without trying to understand what could have caused the frustration in the first place, thereby giving us credit for not being heartless bastards, that we get irritated (and sometimes disappointed). It's a fine line, admittedly. We actually DO want your opinion, but we also want to know you are actually hearing us, and are sympathizing with the feeling, rather than judging us for having it. After that, we can work on whether the feeling is valid. See? You can actually use our need to know whether our feelings are valid or not to help us see another perspective. But we have to feel heard and validated first.

Yeah this makes sense.

But I think the dilemma for Orobas is she feels that even to validate her MIL's feelings would actually violate her own values. Orobas seems to be desperately trying to refrain from inflicting these values on the MIL, by not openly denouncing her perspective, but at the same time she can't act in opposition to those values by agreeing with her MIL.

Orobas, it sounds like you really have to talk to your MIL about it. It seems that she feels like the issue is so unresolved and keeps pushing for a way to settle the lack of a cohesive view between you both on the situation. I guess (to reframe Tallula's advice) the best thing to do would be to find the few broad points your MIL made that you can sympathise with and express them, before then gently conveying your difference in opinion. And there will be some things you can identify with (eg. like her frustration with the whole uphill struggle with the ISFP) that you have overlooked because they were overshadowed by the many things that so conflicted with your values. You just will have to tread gently in your value minefield and distinguish the things that don't actually offend you from the rest. In other words, you might just have to slightly reorient your view but this can be done without actually violating your values

EDIT: I'm not sure how well I'm explaining myself (I guess I'm hoping you will instinctively catch on as a fellow XNFP ) but what I'm suggesting is using Ne to shift your perspective within the bounds of what your Fi values allow - if that makes sense...

 

[Poki]

I'm not trying to imply that Fe users don't have values or that they don't take them seriously. Sorry if that's how it came across. Not my intention.

Maybe it's just that Fi users FEAR that they are being asked to violate their Fi-values because they see everything through their internalized Fi value lens.

But there is something different here. Could you take a stab at trying to explain the differences between Fe and Fi-ness in this area? Thanks in advance. I'd love to hear your assessment.

The people in my life that I would most take a bullet for and want to protect are Fi people. The ones I am the most fearful of are also Fi users, not because of Fi values, but because Fi using rationalization for subjective feelings despite how it would make others feel.

Its the things I will apologize for that Fi feels entitled for.

 

[Fidelia]

Here's the thing EW - when you validate us, you are not expected to validate our point of view! What I am looking for from my listener is someone who loves me enough to

1) Recognize that I am a decent, good-hearted, competent and reasonable person and that I wouldn't share anything like this unless I thought you would be able to blow away the chaff.

2) You want to understand what is hurting or frustrating me so badly that it is making me react in a way that is unlike my usual self.

3) You believe that I wouldn't reach these feelings out of nowhere and therefore you will invite me to share what is going on without passing judgement until you have heard what I have to say. Ask questions!

4) If you feel that I am in error, listen first, and then offer perspectives that may complete or change my view of the situation. I want you to validate me as a person, not necessarily my point of view. Help me to see how it looks to you, without condemning me at the same time or writing off my concerns as being insignificant. I wouldn't let allow you to leave the house without making you aware if there was something that would turn other people away from you (body odour, bad breath, spills on your clothes, toilet paper on your shoe, food in your teeth). Withdrawing or just getting angry with me for being a mean person is the equalivalent of doing that emotionally, in my view.

What you said EW does really embody how I think we all feel. I don't want you to condemn a person just to show loyalty to me. I don't even want you to validate bad feelings I have if you think they are wrong, but I'd like you recognize that I am generally a decent person. Of course I don't expect anyone to violate their conscience just to make me happy, particularly if I am in error and am hurting others in the process! Saying that Fe users do implies that you don't understand, or that you think Fe users are self-serving and do not care about values or truth, which is why some of them are going to take offense at your statement even though you meant none.

Where I do see a distinction is that Fi-Te is less likely to attach a personal element to an opinion, idea or point of view as being representative of that person in the same way that we might. Therefore, sometimes we may feel Fi-Te users are being kind of disloyal when really they don't see it as a personal thing. Similarly, I think that Fe-Ti is sees condemning a person's actions as a quite separate things from condemning who they are as a human being. My opinion on those kinds of things is fairly fluid, depending on the additional or continued information I observe or receive. I think for Fi-Te condemning actions=condemning the person because that's what it would mean if they were to do that. That's just how it looks from my standpoint, and I'm kind of thinking aloud here, so am not sure exactly if that rings true for you or not.

 

[Southern Kross]

I need to feel that you can see that I am normally a credible, competent, kind person before I trust that you are going to have perspective that is going to be beneficial to me.

This is a great statement and really gets the point across.

 

[PeaceBaby]

You have to understand. It's not just a mother who she is seeking to help. It's a mother who she is seeking to help, but is not making any visible effort to show her appreciation of what others have sacrificed for her. Without an apparent willingness to give back, it's hard to determine whether the mother is truly thankful, or merely exploiting their generosity.

This has been said time and time again in this thread, but apparently it is irrelevant to "Fi judgments" about the words the ISTP used in her rant.

And this is a big part of it ... Fi folks see this as two separate things, two separate people, and whether the MIL is justified or not does seem irrelevant. If I got involved, and saw that the ISFP mom was indeed taking advantage of generosity, I would amend my approach to her, but still I wouldn't feel comfortable judging her. See? Does that make sense?

The way I treat the ISTP MIL or the ISFP mom is individual, both need different things from me. I try not to let someone else's words replace my own judgement, and I won't make that judgement until I see it with my own eyes.

I totally get the idea of allegiance, and being able to complain to someone who won't judge you for having nasty thoughts, and who can provide a wise sounding board - but why does it seem if the ISFP mom is a truly exhibiting bad behaviour that it makes it somehow more OK for anyone to say bad stuff about her in a venting session?

To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.

-----

Maybe we need a role-playing thread so people can practice these skills, how to listen, how to validate, how to "talk down" someone who is upset. These discussions are pretty circular these days it seems, and I see us all retreading the same ground.

 

[Tallulah]

I really understand what you're feeling here. Its a tough situation...


Yeah this makes sense.

But I think the dilemma for Orobas is she feels that even to validate her MIL's feelings would actually violate her own values. Orobas seems to be desperately trying to refrain from inflicting these values on the MIL, by not openly denouncing her perspective, but at the same time she can't act in opposition to those values by agreeing with her MIL.

Orobas, it sounds like you really have to talk to your MIL about it. It seems that she feels like the issue is so unresolved and keeps pushing for a way to settle the lack of a cohesive view between you both on the situation. I guess (to reframe Tallula's advice) the best thing to do would be to find the few broad points your MIL made that you can sympathise with and express them, before then gently conveying your difference in opinion. And there will be some things you can identify with (eg. like her frustration with the whole uphill struggle with the ISFP) that you have overlooked because they were overshadowed by the many things that so conflicted with your values. You just will have to tread gently in your value minefield and distinguish the things that don't actually offend you from the rest. In other words, you might just have to slightly reorient your view but this can be done without actually violating your values

EDIT: I'm not sure how well I'm explaining myself (I guess I'm hoping you will instinctively catch on as a fellow XNFP ) but what I'm suggesting is using Ne to shift your perspective within the bounds of what your Fi values allow - if that makes sense...

Yes, this is exactly what I'm suggesting. Just to find some way to hear her and sympathize, and like fidelia said, let her know you're giving her credit as a good person, and that you're not seeing this vent as representative of her overall character. No one is asking anyone to wholesale give up their values system.

There are lots of things my friends do that don't line up with my own choices or values system. But I can understand how they got there. They know by my sympathizing that I'm not condoning it or encouraging it, but nor am I going to judge them or turn them away. In these situations, the person, my friend, is the one that needs my help. How is that not one of the most important values a person can have? Helping a friend in need to work through something they're struggling with? If I don't help them the way they need to be helped, then it seems an important value is being compromised. A friend is left feeling alone, judged and rejected because I didn't want to get in there in a way they could understand. I think both perspectives can be honored in situations like this. Try to empathize in any way you can. Then offer your unique perspective. Your friend will know what your values are. Offering sympathy in no way negates that.

 

[Fidelia]

I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).

 

[Tallulah]

I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).

That's what I'm seeing, too, and it looks like it's going to be hard to bridge that gap with each other. When you're starting from such a wildly different basic premise, it's hard to find a common way to view the situation.

 

[onemoretime]

To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.

A better way to characterize it is that in regard to the person in front of me at the time, my primary question is "is the person justified in expressing their emotion in this way?" That does involve a quick judgment as to the validity of that person's grievances, and that may come across as judging the object of derision (especially when immature). If so, then I'll let them keep venting, and support them as they process their emotions. However, if not, then the tone of the conversation changes entirely - that's when it becomes the dreaded "you're being irrational" conversation, in the hopes that providing some perspective will help calm the storm.

Hope that helps.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).

That's what I'm seeing, too, and it looks like it's going to be hard to bridge that gap with each other. When you're starting from such a wildly different basic premise, it's hard to find a common way to view the situation.

I think Fi-Te sees actions and people as separate too, we tend to give people very much the benefit of the doubt ... just not our own. I think it's fair to say that Fi-Te strives for an internal consistency that matches what we do in the outer world. So when we see people who seem to stand for one thing but do another it is an inconsistency that is very visible to us, very apparent.

Perhaps Fe-Ti strives for an external consistency that helps to harmonize and explain an internal environment?

(Just guessing here.)

And, most people I know, Fi or Fe users, if I believe you to be a "good" person and you have a little venting session to get some shi* off your chest, I am totally not going to change my opinion of you. No worries!

A better way to characterize it is that in regard to the person in front of me at the time, my primary question is "is the person justified in expressing their emotion in this way?" That does involve a quick judgment as to the validity of that person's grievances, and that may come across as judging the object of derision (especially when immature). If so, then I'll let them keep venting, and support them as they process their emotions. However, if not, then the tone of the conversation changes entirely - that's when it becomes the dreaded "you're being irrational" conversation, in the hopes that providing some perspective will help calm the storm.

Hope that helps.

Yes it does; thanks OMT for your thoughts

 

[skylights]

I think Fi-Te sees actions and people as separate too, we tend to give people very much the benefit of the doubt ... just not our own. I think it's fair to say that Fi-Te strives for an internal consistency that matches what we do in the outer world. So when we see people who seem to stand for one thing but do another it is an inconsistency that is very visible to us, very apparent.
[...]

And, most people I know, Fi or Fe users, if I believe you to be a "good" person and you have a little venting session to get some shi* off your chest, I am totally not going to change my opinion of you. No worries!

ditto both. we see people and actions as separate but the character of the actions should eventually match up with the character of the person?

i mean sometimes my best friend does things i don't really feel morally okay with, but she's still my best friend and i feel like she is an awesome person, but if she did too many things like that, then we probably wouldn't be best friends. we've talked about this before, in a non-MBTI related way, and i know the same holds true from her end and she's a Fe dom.

There are lots of things my friends do that don't line up with my own choices or values system. But I can understand how they got there. They know by my sympathizing that I'm not condoning it or encouraging it, but nor am I going to judge them or turn them away. In these situations, the person, my friend, is the one that needs my help. How is that not one of the most important values a person can have? Helping a friend in need to work through something they're struggling with? If I don't help them the way they need to be helped, then it seems an important value is being compromised. A friend is left feeling alone, judged and rejected because I didn't want to get in there in a way they could understand. I think both perspectives can be honored in situations like this. Try to empathize in any way you can. Then offer your unique perspective. Your friend will know what your values are. Offering sympathy in no way negates that.

i agree that there has to be a way of honoring both perspectives.

i think it's really tricky to tell, though, where a line is crossed... in this situation, there is a moral imperative (to me, at least) to protect the sanctity/dignity/etc of the family that is being talked about... and really, even if one is venting, there is no real need to devalue someone... to a certain extent we exaggerate when we vent... but i don't know. it's very hard to word this sometimes. it's just that something somewhere, something Fi, apparently, reaches a point at which it broadcasts a resonant Feeling of this is wrong throughout my body. it's the same thing i considered "conscience" when i was little, a sort of primal danger alert. and i consider myself fairly tolerant in general, but if i never told my friends when i felt like they were crossing a line, i don't think i would be a very good friend...

I totally get the idea of allegiance, and being able to complain to someone who won't judge you for having nasty thoughts, and who can provide a wise sounding board - but why does it seem if the ISFP mom is a truly exhibiting bad behaviour that it makes it somehow more OK for anyone to say bad stuff about her in a venting session?

To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.

yeah, that too. onemoretime's explanation makes sense.

 

[Tallulah]

I hear what y'all are saying, and it kinda confirms for me my choice to vent in front of people I know will understand where I'm coming from, and won't be conflicted or feel like they're compromising themselves to support me.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ you will have to poll them ahead of time "Are you an Fi user?" ... One of my bestest friends is an INFJ, and we have no troubles at all, venting or emo-ing lol. I think, although there are trends, friendships can go beyond any generalizations - so don't count us Fi peeps out!

Sending much luv & on V'Day!

 

[Z Buck McFate]

But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

Nowhere close to being caught up, but I’m posting anyway because it’ll take me a while. Insert usual apology for if this has been said.

Just as a point of interest, I read this and immediately thought of how sometimes it gets brought up that function theory seems to be taken too seriously- that in discussion, it’s attributed to too many different things. It’s the old ‘if it’s being said aloud, it should be more of a finished product’ problem. Te’ers are saying it aloud to bounce off each other, and Ti’ers get itchy to point out that it isn’t as close to being ‘fact’ or ‘end product of knowledge’ as others keep making it out to be. I mean, I use the terms regularly myself- because they (Fe, Fi, Te, etc) are the closest terms available to discuss the underlying phenomenon- but I get incredibly itchy to point out how vague it all truly is when I hear someone cramming too much into it.

So the way it disturbs Orobas to hear her MIL so cavalierly disparage a person (*seemingly*), it disturbs Ti’ers to have the definition of Fe get so cavalierly butchered (*seemingly*). For whatever reason, we sorely crave other people to do the work in their own head- and it actually offends our sensibilities to hear it being done aloud.

How about this (to make ‘the mirror’ more directly understandable to Te’ers): Te users need ‘the mirror’ for this- to bounce theories that aren’t as complete off of ‘others’ to see how they sound. You don’t come up with as much of a finished product on your own. This is exactly what’s happening with Fe users: it sounds like a final condemnation, but it’s bouncing preliminary notions off others to see how it looks. And just like a Te’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘stupid’ for needing to do this work aloud, a Fe’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘mean’ for doing this work aloud. It’s not that Te’ers latch on to the first piece of information that gets reflected back at them- ditto for Fe’ers, Fe’ers are not all mindlessly clutching whatever values happen to be in the area at the time. An intelligent Te’er will recognize intelligent feedback when they get it, just as a compassionate Fe’er will recognize compassionate feedback when they get it: it’s just that the process needs to be done aloud, to be bounced off of others to see how it looks. An intelligent, thoughtful person of any type will recognize a distorted funhouse reflection (short-sighted feedback) when they run into it.

 

[Tallulah]

^^

Good stuff, Z!

 

[skylights]

I think, although there are trends, friendships can go beyond any generalizations

the main reason i am on typoc is because it is helping me learn to communicate better with my family and friends. in less than half a year my relationship with my INTP dad has very much improved, and i'm understanding my FJ friends better as well. my four closest friends are ESFJ, ENFJ, ENFJ, and ESFP... we might not be the same type, but they are who i want to go to first when i have a problem because i love and trust them. though i totally understand why you would feel as you do, tallulah. i think it might be especially true that it would be hard to deal with across the F-T boundary in addition to the Ti/Fe-Te/Fi boundary.

For whatever reason, we sorely crave other people to do the work in their own head- and it actually offends our sensibilities to hear it being done aloud.

How about this (to make ‘the mirror’ more directly understandable to Te’ers): Te users need ‘the mirror’ for this- to bounce theories that aren’t as complete off of ‘others’ to see how they sound. You don’t come up with as much of a finished product on your own. This is exactly what’s happening with Fe users: it sounds like a final condemnation, but it’s bouncing preliminary notions off others to see how it looks. And just like a Te’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘stupid’ for needing to do this work aloud, a Fe’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘mean’ for doing this work aloud. It’s not that Te’ers latch on to the first piece of information that gets reflected back at them- ditto for Fe’ers, Fe’ers are not all mindlessly clutching whatever values happen to be in the area at the time. An intelligent Te’er will recognize intelligent feedback when they get it, just as a compassionate Fe’er will recognize compassionate feedback when they get it: it’s just that the process needs to be done aloud, to be bounced off of others to see how it looks. An intelligent, thoughtful person of any type will recognize a distorted funhouse reflection (short-sighted feedback) when they run into it.

yes, excellent points. it's what fidelia said... the main lesson we should all learn is just to give one another the benefit of the doubt...