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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

Tallulah

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I found this fascinating, and am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the Fe/Ti perspective on this.

On one level this is not so different from the way I approach my own venting. Oftentimes, I am sending out a feeler for feedback from my friends about [insert the object of my venting here]. But at the same time, I would never want to state my objections in such a manner that they would be thought of as self-evident statements of fact. I would be horrified at myself if I thought I were doing this. So it sounds like the endgame isn't that different, but the style of delivery is.

Hee, this is how I feel sometimes when an ENTP states an Ne-based idea that they haven't thoroughly vetted through Ti yet. They sound so sure of themselves, and it makes me wonder about their judgment. And then I realize, "Ohhhh, they're still playing with it." Maybe if you think about Fe venting that way it will help you to wrap your head around it? We might sound sure of ourselves, but we're really just getting it all out of our heads. We tend to (try to) choose wisely who we vent in front of, because it impedes the process to have to make a bunch of qualifiers to make the listener feel more comfortable.
 

uumlau

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Hee, this is how I feel sometimes when an ENTP states an Ne-based idea that they haven't thoroughly vetted through Ti yet. They sound so sure of themselves, and it makes me wonder about their judgment. And then I realize, "Ohhhh, they're still playing with it." Maybe if you think about Fe venting that way it will help you to wrap your head around it? We might sound sure of ourselves, but we're really just getting it all out of our heads. We tend to (try to) choose wisely who we vent in front of, because it impedes the process to have to make a bunch of qualifiers to make the listener feel more comfortable.

This is a cool observation. It implies that Ne can come off as a bit Te-ish, since this is exactly the same issue xNTPs have with Te.

And yes, the parallels between Fe vs Fi and Te (and Ne, as you note) vs Ti are useful for putting oneself in the other's shoes, just switch F for T or vice versa and see how you'd judge it.
 

sculpting

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All of these responses have left me really confused. It all sounds like you guys are saying the same thing on these last few pages.

I spent the yesterday and today with the family. The funny thing is I am so emotionally upset and overwhelmed...yet I have already developed multiple plans of action that seem to exist in isolation from the emotional turmoil. The emotions and angst/offense/confusion just keeps churning with no clean resolution, but in the meantime there is work to do and several good suggestions for the family.

I will be avoiding the MIL as much as possible as I can only twist my mind so much.
 

sculpting

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Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?
 

Poki

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All of these responses have left me really confused. It all sounds like you guys are saying the same thing on these last few pages.

I spent the yesterday and today with the family. The funny thing is I am so emotionally upset and overwhelmed...yet I have already developed multiple plans of action that seem to exist in isolation from the emotional turmoil. The emotions and angst/offense/confusion just keeps churning with no clean resolution, but in the meantime there is work to do and several good suggestions for the family.

I will be avoiding the MIL as much as possible as I can only twist my mind so much.


I dont understand this avoidance very much at all. Can you not live in the moment enough to get past it or will she just not let go of talking about it or what? Maybe its an Fi trait to not be able to just ignore it. I will just start ignoring or not really showing any interest at all and eventually the person gets it. Personally I just reason/try to understand with them and then let go, give suggestions, questions, etc. What is it with ENFPs desire to help people beyond what help the other person will accept? I am not attacking, but wondering why. Take "what is it" as a question, not any type of judgement. There are certain things I will not give up as well.
 

Poki

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Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?

This is a nice way of saying "How can I modify my communication to get "my" point across". The first step is to get that person to "want" to see your point. They have to want to learn from you. You have to work on how that person percieves you, what that person thinks of you. Focusing on communication is only a part of the puzzle.

edit: someone who doesnt respect you wont even try to see your point of view and they will never learn from you.
 

Fidelia

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Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?

I would find that helpful. I run into this frustration in practical terms in real life.
 

onemoretime

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I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.
 

uumlau

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I would find that helpful. I run into this frustration in practical terms in real life.

I would be interested in how you see it come up in real life. I find it more often in online conversations, and would like more real-life examples from others.

I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.

:yes:

Exactly.

The problems appear when one make assumptions that one does not realize one is making. The point of listening is to find these assumptions and drop them. There is also a reciprocity aspect: others will usually respond to evidence of one's listening by listening to one more closely.
 

Fidelia

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Well, one of the reasons that I participate so much in these Fe-Fi threads is that in teaching, I'm frequently dealing with immature Fi users and it's helpful to at least have an idea of what language is more effective for them. In my close personal life, there are a couple of cases of Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do, but I realize that anything I would naturally do to try to improve the situation is not going to be received as being loving. I care too much to just shrug my shoulders and walk away, so right now I'm kind of at an impasse.
 

sculpting

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I dont understand this avoidance very much at all. Can you not live in the moment enough to get past it or will she just not let go of talking about it or what? Maybe its an Fi trait to not be able to just ignore it. I will just start ignoring or not really showing any interest at all and eventually the person gets it. Personally I just reason/try to understand with them and then let go, give suggestions, questions, etc. What is it with ENFPs desire to help people beyond what help the other person will accept? I am not attacking, but wondering why. Take "what is it" as a question, not any type of judgement. There are certain things I will not give up as well.

Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...

Fi is like a snail withdrawing from an unpleseant stimuli. You poke the snail, it gets all fussy and whiny and withdraws. Then after a little while, it sorts itself out, gets over being whiny, and re-emerges. However with MIL, she just keeps getting "louder" and I just keep retreating more and more-I am not getting time to get over the Fi offense and sort through things. The snail keeps getting poked. I am having problems remaining objective and trying to be logical and distanced from my emotions. I want to recognize her good intent, but I have to have time to translate what she says based upon what you guys have taught me.

MIL does not need to change, not my goal at all. MIL's treatment of me is annoying at times but if forgiven as I am tough and can tolerate a lot. MIL's hurt of another is much, much harder to not be offended by.
 

sculpting

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This is a nice way of saying "How can I modify my communication to get "my" point across". The first step is to get that person to "want" to see your point. They have to want to learn from you. You have to work on how that person percieves you, what that person thinks of you. Focusing on communication is only a part of the puzzle.

edit: someone who doesnt respect you wont even try to see your point of view and they will never learn from you.

After half an hour, the FP mom was asking me many questions and actively seeking my guidance on how to raise her kids. It frightened me as I dont feel like the best mom at times and I realized she was trusting me to provide her guidance-she seemed very enthusiastic to learn more.

It seems more that first they must trust you-then they will be willing to listen? Wait...I said "trust" and you said "respect". I dont know if that is significant but I recall seeing it before somewhere.

I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.

:) oddly-it is actually the opposite approach which gained her trust I think. I didnt realize what was going on as to be honest I have never paid attention to the interaction pattern between myself and another FP before.

I will try and write up some thoughts in the next few days to summarize what seemed to work and perhaps why. It makes me feel I should do this stuff more often.
 

cascadeco

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Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...

Fi is like a snail withdrawing from an unpleseant stimuli. You poke the snail, it gets all fussy and whiny and withdraws. Then after a little while, it sorts itself out, gets over being whiny, and re-emerges. However with MIL, she just keeps getting "louder" and I just keep retreating more and more-I am not getting time to get over the Fi offense and sort through things. The snail keeps getting poked. I am having problems remaining objective and trying to be logical and distanced from my emotions. I want to recognize her good intent, but I have to have time to translate what she says based upon what you guys have taught me.

MIL does not need to change, not my goal at all. MIL's treatment of me is annoying at times but if forgiven as I am tough and can tolerate a lot. MIL's hurt of another is much, much harder to not be offended by.

To be honest, I don't even understand this 'getting louder' behavior. Is this just repeating what she's said previously because she thinks you aren't hearing/understanding what she's saying? And/or she doesn't like the responses you are giving or thinks based on what you're saying that you're not understanding her points?? Is this something you've encountered with other Fe's in your life, or is just your MIL? If the latter, I wouldn't even attribute to an Fe/Fi thing at all - sounds like her own behavioral pattern or something like that.

Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.
 

Orangey

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Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.

Absolutely.
 

uumlau

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Well, one of the reasons that I participate so much in these Fe-Fi threads is that in teaching, I'm frequently dealing with immature Fi users and it's helpful to at least have an idea of what language is more effective for them. In my close personal life, there are a couple of cases of Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do, but I realize that anything I would naturally do to try to improve the situation is not going to be received as being loving. I care too much to just shrug my shoulders and walk away, so right now I'm kind of at an impasse.


That makes a lot of sense. When I was teaching, I had to learn to teach both in an Ni (here's how it all fits together) and an Si (here are the step-by-step repeatable instructions on how to solve a problem). The first thing I needed to do was drop the notion that there is something wrong with the step-by-step way. Physics is a very intuitive field, largely because there are only a few intuitive ideas to understand (the laws of physics), but a very large number of ways those ideas combine in specific cases for specific solutions/recipes. But that doesn't make the intuitive understanding "better", just easier. When running an experiment, all of those nitpicky details come to the fore and are more important than the simple theory(ies) being tested.

I would suggest that in your Fi-teaching case, the trick is realizing that the usual Fe-style motivators don't work: it's either going to bounce off of the Te as being unreasonable/illogical or off of the Fi as being too intrusive.

The Te is interested in "what works", so all of the extra fluff of why it's such a great idea to do whatever falls flat. It's enough that it works: that makes it a good idea. Te, especially in the Fi perspective, is how to handle all those things that one has to do that one would really rather not do. Emotion is detached, and you just do them. Sticking emotion context on them only confuses.

The Fi is where the motivation lies, but it comes from within, not from without. So you build motivation in Fi (in others) by allowing them to try and fail without fearing failure. Not that you coddle them - rather you can say things in a "harsher" way without emotion, pointing out what was done right and wrong, without any hint that one is displeased. That it's OK to fail, but one just keeps working at it. You teach them by letting them be themselves, within limits.

I'm trying to think how my favorite salsa instructor does it (ExFP). She just points out what I'm doing wrong by making it clear how to do it right, that it's just a matter of work and practice (Te), and mostly just letting me dance and letting her find things to improve.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ Would it be easy for Fe to successfully communicate an outer neutral confidence when masking an inner annoyance, displeasure or disappointment though? That's the kind of disconnect I sense all the time, that people's words and actions don't match their inner state and I think it's hard for others to conceal. Some people are very polished, and certainly many are genuine in their desire to be helpful, but that dissonance is still detectable and does indeed make a difference. It feels disingenuous, "fake" - even when I know it's not meant that way, it's still disconcerting and I think lots of Fi users get stuck on the "fake" part.

It's worth mentioning too that Te also can come across negatively - impatient, overbearing, critical - so, it is hard to deliver these messages in the most affirming, effective way no matter the pathway, and Fi tends to take them to heart, reading a lot of personal negatives in when unwarranted.
 

Esoteric Wench

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OK, this is probably a dumb question, but what the heck is an MIL?
 

Esoteric Wench

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Thanks! That was just killing me because I couldn't figure it out. :doh:
 

Poki

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After half an hour, the FP mom was asking me many questions and actively seeking my guidance on how to raise her kids. It frightened me as I dont feel like the best mom at times and I realized she was trusting me to provide her guidance-she seemed very enthusiastic to learn more.

It seems more that first they must trust you-then they will be willing to listen? Wait...I said "trust" and you said "respect". I dont know if that is significant but I recall seeing it before somewhere.



:) oddly-it is actually the opposite approach which gained her trust I think. I didnt realize what was going on as to be honest I have never paid attention to the interaction pattern between myself and another FP before.

I will try and write up some thoughts in the next few days to summarize what seemed to work and perhaps why. It makes me feel I should do this stuff more often.

For me trust is when a person has had opportunities to screw you over, let you down, etc. and they have not taken them. To me that is someone you can trust. For me respect is basically me wanting to hear your point of view. I respect your decisions, your input, your thoughts, your feelings. Respect to me doesnt mean the person is right, but means that they have input that I value. I think that respect and trust are different for every person based on what matters to that person.

I can respect someone that lies, I wont trust them though.
 
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