[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[Poki]

If I count as a Fe user (I'd just say non-Fi user),

1) Do you find yourself easily venting to others about logical problems as well? Do you feel less likely to vent about problems with things than you do when the problem is people?
For me, it's any situation that has me frustrated. That'll often be what happens at work (mostly just commiserating more than venting). Actually, I think (in person) I'm more likely to vent about things than people, because the former doesn't require sharing private, possibly unreasonable thoughts. How I feel about things isn't personal whereas my feelings about people are almost by definition more irrational, emotional etc. And I do know that I have a tendency to judge people more than I should, so I try to avoid airing those thoughts publicly. But maybe the venting about people will be more intense (than about things) when it happens, because I'll restrain myself until holding it in becomes intolerable, and because the situation will usually have more emotions attached. In that case, it will certainly be vented only to trusted people who I don't think will share the information.

2) Many of you said that they're judging the job she did as a mother, not the person itself. What does a judgement of the person as a whole look like for an Fe-user? And how does it come about? How is it experienced? Is it ever personal?

I guess a judgement of the person would tend to be "he's an asshole" or maybe "we don't get along". It tends to happen when the person does things (usually more than a few) that show that they're inconsiderate jerks. Experienced? I don't spend time dwelling on it unless I'm forced to be in that person's company, which I would certainly avoid if possible. I'm not sure what you mean by personal. Of course it's about that individual person.

In this case I would imagine judging the mother personally by saying "she doesn't care about her kids", "she's cruel and abusive", "she's stupid", "she's (optional: white) trash", "she's ungrateful", etc. A few of these were implied by Fi but I'm not sure they were actually meant (she did say IF she cared then...., which is pretty close). Most of what the istp said was descriptive rather than inferring motives, though.

Karma is about how you treat people, not values you hold. People get confused by this and dont understand Karma. It also means sometimes we ARE karma and sometimes we will be judged by someone elses values or basically forced Karma by confused people. They do intertwine(how u treat people and values), but you have to be able to seperate your values from the world and be able to understand that another persons values are different and its not your place to force your values on others and judge them as a person, only judge there interactions based on the part they are interacting with which could be yourself at which point you are judging them based on your values and need to hold them to your values.

As an inferior Fe user I judge people based on how they make the other person feel. Happy is good, hurt is bad. Its simple. Frustrated, confused, angery, etc. are ok and just things to work out and move past.

 

[Poki]

I too have some questions for Fe users (forgive the term):

1.) Rather than argue against the Fi position, can you accept it for what it is? That basically, inner and outer congruency are important to Fi users, and people who act one way but speak another way will appear somewhat illogical, inconsistent, even deceptive to us? I mean, Fi users = 50% of the population. You can't discredit the kind of effects your words about other people will have on them. It's not much different than Fe users complaining about Fi users venting on their inner state, believing they are trying to stir up other people with "drama".

Stirring people up for drama is not an Fi thing, but it uses Fi inner state. Its something that I believe Se picks up in the way things are handled whether its for stirring things up or for venting. I can usually tell in person if the focus is outward toward another person, or the focus in inward toward self.

Also some people think that they need to pull out the drama because just letting things out makes it all better. Which is the case sometimes, but not always. I personally need some kind of understanding, not just to vent and let it out.

 

[Fidelia]

It could also be noted that calling social services is not always in the child or parents' best interests. They are overworked, there are not enough homes of any kind (let alone quality ones) to put children into and so they are often overcrowded or unavailable, there is a significant amount of emotional trauma for the children involved in being apprehended and it often is a very short time fix. Social services frequently loses track of children in the system and the case workers change every couple of months, so there is very little continuity or understanding of the situation.

I think it's plausible that this lady may feel frustration, but has weighed out the consequences and concluded that social services could be an even worse option, even though she finds the current situation less than ideal.

 

[Poki]

It could also be noted that calling social services is not always in the child or parents' best interests. They are overworked, there are not enough homes of any kind (let alone quality ones) to put children into and so they are often overcrowded or unavailable, there is a significant amount of emotional trauma for the children involved in being apprehended and it often is a very short time fix. Social services frequently loses track of children in the system and the case workers change every couple of months, so there is very little continuity or understanding of the situation.

I think it's plausible that this lady may feel frustration, but has weighed out the consequences and concluded that social services could be an even worse option, even though she finds the current situation less than ideal.

in situations like this my ex has called child counselors anonymously, talked with liscensed therapists, called child services to see what the options are, how they would handle things, etc. Then make a decision based on the facts that were given to her on whats the best scenario for the child.

 

[sculpting]

I think to Fe-Ti, the veracity of the claims (or lack thereof, depending) is very relevant to the conversation that took place. To determine whether the ISTP was being overly harsh or not, it seems important to know whether the claims were valid.

I think in Fi-Te terms that perhaps is a separate issue. For me, it is one and the same issue, and that is maybe why there seems to be a disconnect.

I hear that the judgments are, for you guys directly tied to the truth of her statements. Yourself, protean and Jen among others have stated this. As Esoteric and PB pointed out, our side of the fence seems to prefer to split the topic in the moral issues in the conversation and then into the actual problem at hand when we analyze.

I sat in a meeting yesterday and listened to an INFJ man tell us that we needed to work with a certain vendor as he was the best and he liked him and he was a great guy and he works really hard. I then began asking objective questions about the actual product and how we would use it, the quality, the cost, at which point the INFJ man kept trying to blanket state that it was the best solution and shut down my line of questioning.

PB made an excellent comment-did the ISTP and the INFJ-both expect that simply because they FELT a certain way about an issue, that I would accept those feelings at face value and assume they were correct without question the underying data? As a "highly questioning" ENFP, this totally backfires as I want to make the most objective fair decision possible-thus I divert away from feelings-theirs and my own- and begin cross checking with objective data. So when someone keeps giving me "feelings" as evidence, it, as EW pointed out, feels like an agenda is being pursued. I will not make a decision that commits me to action until I have real data. The more drastic an emotional effect the decision will have-such as calling CPS-the more confident I need to be either in validity of the data-Te style-or the risk of SEVERE immediate harm-Fi style.

Oddly, the more emo the ISTPs displays, the less and less I trust the emo....and the more and more I question the truth. Hmmmm...will have to think on that.

 

[Tiltyred]

Peacebaby, as far as Fe users just owning their feelings instead of having to talk to them to someone else -- the problem is, I am never sure if I am right. I need corroboration. An example from my life -- I made friends with a woman from work who I admired, respected, and liked very much. It turned out she was an alcoholic. She was often absent from work, but she said she was working from home and I believed her. But in trying to be closer with her, things just wouldn't gel -- she invited me and my husband to her house one weekend afternoon and when we got there, no one answered the door, for example (!) ... and then one day she complained to me that her best friend, who was an acquaintance of mine only, refused to give her a ride after they'd been out to a bar one evening, and left her there by herself, drunk.

I went to the best friend and said what's up with you not giving her a ride home and what's going on with her anyway, and the best friend tells me every time they go out, she would get very drunk and then want to spend the night on the friend's couch. The next day they would have to go retrieve her car and take her to her own house, and it was a long way out of the way, and the friend had 2 small children to care for and take places, and she just got tired of doing it every weekend, and the only way she could get the woman to stop it was to stop enabling her. So I asked her about making plans and then having nothing materialize, and she had a bunch of stories on that subject, too. She said the woman had extreme endometriosis that was very painful and worse, threatened her potential fertility, and she was Catholic and her boyfriend was Catholic and it was very important to him and to both their families that she be able to have children, so she felt like she couldn't marry her boyfriend because she possibly could not have children, but they loved each other and neither wanted to be with anyone else, so the years dragged on, and the situation drove her to drink ...

So everything falls into place once I get the story, now I understand. Things are not going to be how I thought they were going to be. It is going to be difficult and there are several things I will need to look out for so I don't get too disappointed and I don't expect too much of her, that she's not being mean if she gives me this big set up about the great time I'm going to have at her house and then she forgets she even invited me, etc. And the friend stood there and confirmed for me all the things my mind started to grasp about what things were going to be like, that they had been like that for her all this time, and that is why she had begun putting some distance.

So what feelings should I have silently owned? Feeling rejected and manipulated? Beginning to suspect she didn't like me at all? Beginning to feel angry with her?

Yes, I want feedback when I'm venting about a person. I am hoping they will tell me something that sheds light on behavior that's, to me, clearly wrong, and absent some excuse or reason, indicates a bad intent. Also I'm hoping if they think I'm being hysterical or too critical they will say so.

I want them to have a reason, though.

I don't want to hurt peoples' feelings, but I am more interested in being a good friend to them than I am concerned about their feelings.

 

[Tallulah]

I agree with what Tilty said.

I also think maybe I should state outright that I don't substitute someone's venting for my own judgment. But I do realize that 1) if I've known and trusted the venter for a long time, and I know them not to exaggerate, be spiteful or overly dramatic, then their opinion isn't something to immediately discount, and 2) this is a heightened version because it's a vent. But for Pete's sake, I'm an INTP, and devil's advocate is in my blood. I'm always going to need to form my own opinions. I'm always going to gently ask questions about the situation or get a feel for whether the person is assessing things correctly, or is too emotional to see things clearly at this point. I'm not blindly trusting someone else's opinion, which will then color my own for-EVAH! When someone is venting, it's more about them trying to make sense of a situation, them making sure for themselves they're not being unfair, getting the jumble of conflicting or confusing thoughts out of their head for examination...it does sound like what Satine is describing for Te, though I can't say for sure because I have almost zero Te.

If I feel like someone is being raked over the coals, badmouthed, whatever, where it's more about an axe to grind, or a jealousy issue or pettiness, that is NOT venting, and I will speak up for the person being maligned. It's important to understand that there IS a difference between venting to understand and good old fashioned "talking behind people's backs," gossiping, being a general tool. A decent Fe user will disdain that, too.

I can accept that to a Fi user, the talking behind someone's back even as venting presents that weird disconnect; I can accept that, but if you can't accept that being cruel is not my intention and that I need to vent sometimes--yes, even about PEOPLE (especially about people for an INTP; we are not really social creatures)--then IRL, it's going to be hard for us to be good friends. Btw, as a Christian, there were many times growing up that I felt incredibly guilty about my need to vent, due to having the idea of never talking behind someone's back, never saying a bad word about someone, etc, etc., being drummed into me. I feel that is a good principle, but I gradually came to realize that venting wasn't the same thing as having ill intentions. If I don't externalize some of the thoughts I'm having, I will never get them sorted, I'll feel guilty and confused, and I'll likely have a faulty picture of the situation. Remember, your feeling process is internal. It's probably easier for you to sort this stuff out for yourself. I need to talk it out. And I need to talk it out with someone I trust, who I know isn't secretly thinking I'm a bad person, that I'm mean or cruel. I need someone else's feedback, I need to know if I'm perceiving the situation clearly, or if I'm letting emotions or hurt feelings cloud my judgment. I need to know if I'm being too hard on the other person, or too hard on myself (that is the case most of the time).

Something else you should know: I will freaking give someone the benefit of the doubt waaaaaay after they've shown me they probably don't deserve it. So when I finally do get frustrated, I'm probably at the end of my rope and fighting the inconsistency in my own brain: "I like this person, but they're driving me nuts. This person is smart or funny or basically decent, but they seem to be taking advantage of me, or bringing me down, or monopolizing my time and energy..." And I will have made excuses for them over and over and over, playing Devil's Advocate, and failing to realize once and for all that they're probably not good people to have around. So when I vent, you'll see all the frustration finally come out. And it will feel good, because yeah, maybe there will be some of the resentments and negative feelings I was trying to stifle in order to be understanding, coming to the surface.

Shoot, I have a friend or two that I love dearly but that are extremely frustrating/demanding/hard to deal with sometimes. These people KNOW they are like that, and I have no problem having it out with them and letting them know if they've gone too far. But sometimes I'll vent to my best friend about them, because who wants to have a battle every week? You get it out of your system, like letting steam escape from a pressure cooker, and everything's back to normal. I can take a lot more from these particular people because I'm pretty laid back, but a lot of people can't handle them at all. I'm pretty sure these folks would rather have me blow off a little steam and still be a supportive friend, than for me to decide I can't deal with them or to have a blow up every few days.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

[Haven't quite caught up, there may be something in here that's already been said]

2.) And is Fe venting generally about other people? That's the sense I get. The Fe users are feeling stuff that they believe is caused by other people, so they need to bounce it off a confidante as a kind of quality control check. Is that accurate? Do Fe users ever just own their feelings instead of needing to do an external check (do you know what I mean by that?)

The thing is- the feelings I end up with are always my own. It’s like looking in a mirror to check things out before going out for the evening. I really can’t tell if my hair is a mess or my shirt is inside out or whatever until I see a reflection of what I look like. It’s the same with feelings. I have a hard time figuring out where I’m being unreasonable, where I am being selfish or not defending my position enough- until I bounce it off of someone. But it isn’t the mirror which ends up determining my judgment for me- just like a mirror can’t actually fix someone’s hair for them. A mirror helps me make decisions, but it never makes the decisions for me. Does that even make sense? I might not know something makes me look fat (or selfish, unreasonable) until I look in the mirror- but in the end it’s always my own judgment that I listen to. I just need a mirror to see it in the first place.

I guess I just don’t value the right to unabashedly feel absolutely any ol’ thing that pops into my head? It’s not that important to me. It’s more important to me to make sure my feelings aren’t imposing unpleasantness on others- and if they are, I need to make sure they’re reasonable.

3.) When you have an Fe venting session, do you really want to know what the listener is thinking? An Fi / Te user is going to try to solve your problems or counter any faulty emotional logic with a reality check. If you just need to be heard in your complaining about other people, what kind of information is best shared in response? Can you self-balance? Do you need to hear whether the listener thinks the feelings are justified?

I think this is why a lot of us say that we’re careful about who we use as a ‘mirror’- who we vent to, bounce our problems off of. Personally, yes, I absolutely want to hear the other person’s opinion. If I’m venting to someone, it’s because they’ve already (at least somewhat) proven to me that they have sound judgment. People who are wacko make for very fun-house distorted mirrors, and only end up confusing me more than clarifying things. And yes-men aren’t helpful either, because I’m not looking to hear that I’m right unless the other person believes it. If I only ever get agreement from someone (unless we truly do think similarly enough that it’s possible the person really agrees with me that often), then I stop seeking their opinion.

The kind of stuff that’s helpful to hear is basically “is it them or is it me?” kind of stuff. I just want to hear the other person’s take- and ideally, if they disagree with me, I need a reasonable path of logic to lead me to understand why.

 

[Fidelia]

I agree with this. As to the second point though, it depends how it is done. I find sometimes that I need to vent off the excess emotion initially, during which I just need someone to ask me more questions for context etc. After I have calmed down, I will self-correct a bit and say, "It's not that it's really such a big deal, it's just that x, y, z..." At that point, I welcome another perspective and some reflection back. Sometimes I find that in the middle of my venting, the Fi-Te user wants to play the devil's advocate, or takes the directly opposite position from me and voices it immediately without even understanding the extent of what I've tried or why I am feeling so upset. They are making judgement about it which are like throwing more gasoline onto a fire that I am desperately trying to get under control and stamped out. The only way I can do this is to get rid of some of the things that are fueling it. If there is no safe dumping ground for it, I am left with a lot of combustible stuff on my hand and no way to prevent something terrible from happening unexpectedly.

So in answer to your question, Orobas, no, I don't expect you to unquestioningly accept what I say, any more than a Te user expects you to unquestioning accept their solution to something. I WANT quality control and I want someone who cares enough about me to make sure that I don't go out there looking foolish or unreasonable.

What I do need though is to feel that even when we disagree, you and I are on the same side and if I am feeling frustrated, you don't think I'm a cruel, unreasonable, terrible excuse for a human being. I need to you blow away some of the chaff, ask some questions (and not just ones challenging every emotion being expressed) so you understand why I'm struggling with this and give me a little bit of comfort before going into the second half. Often, as has been expressed before, I WANT to do the right thing and I WANT to treat the other person kindly and with respect. It's usually that I am struggling with having put up with a lot more than is reasonable and am trying to get my feelings back to a state where I can present something kind and giving to the other person that ISN'T going to make them feel rotten. For me, it really does cut to the quick when someone I know well and care about assumes the worst of me and isn't even interested in finding out why someone who is normally pretty okay would suddenly have this harsh kind of reaction.

I liked the comparison of other's reactions to a the mirror for the Fe user. The mirror is neither expected to reflect something back that is not accurate (nor could it even if it tried!), nor is it responsible for telling me that I've got something in my teeth or that my hair is mussy. Instead, it is there to reflect back my own appearance and for me to decide whether I feel okay about presenting myself that way to the public.

 

[Athenian200]

2.) And is Fe venting generally about other people? That's the sense I get. The Fe users are feeling stuff that they believe is caused by other people, so they need to bounce it off a confidante as a kind of quality control check. Is that accurate? Do Fe users ever just own their feelings instead of needing to do an external check (do you know what I mean by that?)

Here's something I wrote to wildcat once, trying to explain Fe. I was one of the first to use the "mirror" metaphor for Fe, AFAIK.

So, Fe covers all of Fi? Not exactly. On the outside, yes. But from the observer's perspective? No. The missing element? Direct experience of the emotion by the observer. It's felt by the others, and can be internally confirmed by the observer via their reflections and ideas, even written, but never seen directly on the internal level. The price of Fe warmth and light for others is an inner numbness. We can easily know what we are feeling, and are driven to know. But we can only know, not feel. The advantage? Awareness of what others are feeling.Does Fi exist in Fe's? Technically yes. But we aren't directly aware of it. The Intuitive is luckier, though. Intuition acts as the best mirror.

How do we know that waves exist outside the visible spectrum if we can't see them? By the effect they have on objects attuned to their presence.

How did Newton discover gravity? Did he see it with his eyes? No. He saw the apple fall, and inferred gravity from the impact it had upon the apple.

The reason we constantly output emotion is in hopes that another will reflect it back. Holding a forward-directed flashlight, desperate for mirrors, but all the mirrors are slightly flawed, curved, or dim. So we need several to get a glimpse of ourselves.

So, Fe is feeling projected onto the object, reflected back. What you believed covered Fi was only the reflection of it.

The basic gist of it is, while Fe users may be vaguely aware of what they're feeling, they don't trust it, regard it as valid, or see it as "real" until it's reflected back at them. It can be hard for us to untangle our own emotions from our awareness of other people's emotions.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I find sometimes that I need to vent off the excess emotion initially, during which I just need someone to ask me more questions for context etc. After I have calmed down, I will self-correct a bit and say, "It's not that it's really such a big deal, it's just that x, y, z..." At that point, I welcome another perspective and some reflection back. Sometimes I find that in the middle of my venting, the Fi-Te user wants to play the devil's advocate, or takes the directly opposite position from me and voices it immediately without even understanding the extent of what I've tried or why I am feeling so upset. They are making judgement about it which are like throwing more gasoline onto a fire that I am desperately trying to get under control and stamped out. The only way I can do this is to get rid of some of the things that are fueling it. If there is no safe dumping ground for it, I am left with a lot of combustible stuff on my hand and no way to prevent something terrible from happening unexpectedly.

For me, it really does cut to the quick when someone I know well and care about assumes the worst of me and isn't even interested in finding out why someone who is normally pretty okay would suddenly have this harsh kind of reaction.

At top part, yeah, that’s definitely true for me as well. If someone jumps the gun with devil’s advocate, it’s invalidating. I need to feel like someone is a safe dumping ground (not only for me, but that they can handle it- not take it personally- as well).

And yeah, it really is disconcerting if someone doesn't give me credit for who I am the other 99% of the time.

I was one of the first to use the "mirror" metaphor for Fe, AFAIK.

You’re not going to try to trick me into paying you for having used it, are you? Cos I told myself I’m not going to fall for that anymore. (Every January, it’s “this year’s going to be different.”)

The basic gist of it is, while Fe users may be vaguely aware of what they're feeling, they don't trust it, regard it as valid, or see it as "real" until it's reflected back at them. It can be hard for us to untangle our own emotions from our awareness of other people's emotions.

Exactly.

 

[Athenian200]

You’re not going to try to trick me into paying you for having used it, are you? Cos I told myself I’m not going to fall for that anymore. (Every January, it’s “this year’s going to be different.”)

LOL. No, I didn't patent it. I don't even believe in patents.

I just wanted to take the opportunity to flesh out the metaphor as far as possible while everyone was using it, and attention was being paid.

 

[Orangey]

And as I said before, I TOTALLY get the need to vent, and I can take it for what it is from the Fe users in my life. I mostly let it run its course unless it really goes off the rails of logic.

Not to be a prick, but how can someone be venting and NOT "go off the rails of logic?" The content of venting is feelings, and feelings are not logical. Therefore, the content of venting is not logical.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.

 

[BAJ]

I couldn't read everything. I stopped somewhere less than 15, then skipped to the end. Sorry. Maybe later. After hanging out at INTPc for years, I recently changed my type from INTP to INFP. This thread made me feel really tired (or maybe I'm just tired). Maybe I made a mistake in changing my type again to INFP.

I'm about to turn 40, and I have a tendency to leave dishes in the sink and use paper plates. I just killed a mouse earlier (by showing it to the dog). I guess I've always been messy (since birth). I live in an apartment provided by the farm in which I work. In the summer, other people stay in the same building. If they are messy, then I tend to just leave the issue alone or do some cleaning myself (because I don't want to confront them). However, if they are a neat freak, I do everything I can to accommodate them.

If they are too neat, like needing to clean under the furniture, then I just retreat to my room and basically quit spending time outside my room. I get depressed (sort of), and I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to hear any criticism from them.

That said, I can be very neat if I want to please someone, and they are reasonable. I mean, I will break out the feng shui. I actually have creme brule scented candles right now, but left to myself, I somewhat comfortable with stacks of clutter. I'm probably a real hoarder. People have really said hurtful things to me about it. I've been threatened with evictions and termination from my job because of conflicts between my nature and a former (extremely neat) roommate.

Thus, it would be hypocritical for me to criticize this woman. However, considering her circumstances, the demands on her seem reasonable if she is in ordinary psychological health, which it does not seem to me that she is. To know that, I would need to get involved, and find out. There are various possibilities. Perhaps she is getting more depressed from the ISTP (or maybe I'm projecting). She may be riding the situation, milking it...consciously or not. If I were in her situation and wanted to show improvement and gratitude, then I'd probably clean the whole church and do the landscaping...though the kids may drain her energy for that.

In a way I can never be in her situation because I don't have kids, and probably will not. I have a steady job, but I don't believe I could afford kids or have any kind of destiny along those lines. Kids are expensive. There are too many consequences. Also, my living situation is a little different as I've been living in the same apartment for five years.

Certainly, however, I can't go find out what the real situation is by exploring the woman's issues. I live too far away. I don't know how the woman with the children really feels, and why. What was/ is her life and development like? Yes, we know in general, but I don't know what her domestic experiences were specifically, and why it has led to this.

Helping is very Christian, though in the beginning (book of Acts) they all lived communally and turned 100% of their possessions in to the church. Nowadays, in real agape, dirty and smelly are not considered. You help people, and not speak a word about it. You confess your sins openly and hide your good deeds. In that, the people in the church would be in there changing the diapers, washing the woman's feet, and such. If there is any conditionality attached, then it is not pure Christian love. No shred of reciprocity is required for pure Christian love. Did Jesus ask for a favor when washing the people's feet? I think he only said to go and do likewise.

Now, if you are a secular agency or some kind of social club, then you need to have the people's kids wearing fancy clothes, and in the pew on time every Sunday morning. In that, you make very strict conditions from a completely non-co-dependent position that doesn't not make your responsible for other people's emotions.

It sounds like people in this church are in between these too. I'd be between them too, probably. In fact, helping people is difficult. Some will take advantage at every turn, and some just can't be helped. Regardless, if i were involved, then I'd need to know more about the woman from the woman herself.

In addition, I come from another perspective, which is largely transcendentalist, which suggests that I need to be careful with the woman's karma. For ultimate happiness, there may be some bottom she needs to reach and some pain she needs to face.

You know, I saw in this National Geographic a family in India living under a water pipe. She was clapping her hands in time with a child around a pile of burning rubbish. A man sat under the water pipe. These people were getting their drinking water from drips falling from a water pipe, and that was their life. The woman looked very happy. There was no ISTP (or ISTJ like my father) to shame them. They looked happy. Apparently they had different expectations...at least in that moment. That's what I'd want to see in this woman at your church: happiness, not conformity to the expectations in my mind, per se, but happiness...not glossing things over happiness...but real bliss.

How to heal this woman? Since it is a Christian church, I'd offer this. Clean the trash bin for her. Wash her feet. Help her. Don't put a single expectation on her. Ask her why, but just listen. And sweep her floor. Change the diapers if you are qualified. Clothe the children. Listen to her, what comes from inside her.

 

[Orangey]

^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.

No, to say that something is logical is to say that it follows the principles of logic. I understand that feelings (as in the MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational, but that's not to say they're logical. So no, venting is not logical.

 

[CrystalViolet]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I thought I'd chime in, so I hope I'm not treading peoples toes.
Not so long ago, just over a year now, I tried to start a business and lost everything....I was a recepient of charity there for a while. It's a hard place for Fi-dom to be, and people are cruel.
Now, I'm fairly middle class, and well educated, and I did see the signs that the bussiness was going bottoms up. I didn't just sit on my butt and do nothing. I started looking for work, any thing...
People assumed I was too snobby to ask for jobs at cafes and fast food resturants. Told me off, in fact. The truth is I applied for everything within walking distance (which in the middle of Sydney is a fair scope). People would look at my C.V. and just laugh. (it would seem ridiculous for a scientist to be applying at Mc Donald's, no matter how I doctored my damn C.V.). Try telling people the truth, and they don't believe you. They just think you are not trying hard enough.
I also left my C.V. at every shop, convenience store etc, etc, within walking distance, I'd pour through the news papers, web sites for hours on end, but the minute I stop to have a drink and watch telly for half an hour, it would be "why aren't you looking for a job?". Apparently I was supposed to dedicate every waking hour to this.
When I had to pick up food vouchers once, I asked if I could change my appointment because I had a job interview at the same time, and silly me, I thought a job interview took precedence. I got told under no uncertain terms, I wouldn't eat for a week if I missed the appointment. Fortuantly, the person interviewing me was much more understanding.
I got bailed up for keeping unsocialble hours. Do you know why I did it, I stayed up late so I could use the free internet access unhibited for hours, so I could search for jobs. That wasn't acceptable. I had to do with in socialble hours. I have many more examples of crass judgments, not well thought through.

If I had any choice at all, I would never have accepted help. I don't recommend it. It's exceptionally hard for Fi-dom. Judgements are placed on you, that are entirely ridiculous. And you should have seen the self congratulatory smuggness when I got a job....like it was a surprise, I'd get back on my feet again. (Angry, just slightly). For god sakes, I had jobs before, a car and a house! It's like it wasn't bad luck, there must have been some thing wrong with me. Oh, and during that time, I didn't even feel like a real person. I have never experienced marginilisation until then. I was lucky, not to kill myself from overwhelming depression.

I had never worked so hard in my life...I was glad I had a job so I could rest.

It's not easy being on charity. I can't honestly see anyone doing that unless they had too. I couldn't wait to get off it.

I should make it clear, this isn't an anti-Fe tirade, but rather a different spin on the situation.
I'm grateful for the help I recieved, but I did lose independence of though, and freedom of expression there for a while. Mostly I'm glad that I got privacy back. For some reason, once you accept charity, there seems to be unwritten rule that your whole life is open to critisism.
I don't think it's Fe thing, it's a you're public property thing.

 

[uumlau]

Not to be a prick, but how can someone be venting and NOT "go off the rails of logic?" The content of venting is feelings, and feelings are not logical. Therefore, the content of venting is not logical.

^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.

No, to say that something is logical is to say that it follows the principles of logic. I understand that feelings (as in the MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational, but that's not to say they're logical. So no, venting is not logical.

To be clear, no Jungian function is "logical," per se. Certainly not by any strict definition of the word. The judging functions have a desire for particular kinds of results. Te looks for efficiency, practicality and optimization. Fe looks for harmonious congeniality and diplomacy. Fi looks for things being "right." Ti looks for things being "correct," occasionally being interested in being logically correct.

The cognitive process, human thinking in general, is not "logical." Normal human thought is, in fact, beyond logic.

Computers are necessarily logical, in the strict sense. Yet the things that a computer does can be completely unreasonable, irrational, and bizarre, all the while being entirely logically correct.

It is entirely possible for "feelings" (I'm using the word VERY loosely) to result in an absolutely correct "logical" conclusion, even though logic was never consciously applied. It is certainly possible for "feelings" to be far more reasonable, rational, wise and understanding than any "logical" computer.

Logic is, in human cognitive terms, no more than a metric of self-consistency. It requires a human mind capable of perceiving and judging to credit any logical statement with any degree of real validity.

So, by Orangey's standard, hardly anything anyone says or does is "logical." When one says something like, "unless it [venting] really goes off the rails of logic," criticizing such by saying that venting cannot be logical in the first place is to be obtuse. The statements of the venting can be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis. And given the context of the statement, there is a "fuzzy logic" standard implied, where one's statements are predominantly valid without being 100% logically correct by some arbitrary standard.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Thanks, uumlau. I read Orangey's response and debated how to respond to it (thanks too Orangey for your post). Because, as you say, when it comes to human thought, there really is no such thing as yielding pure "logic" - feelings are our first language and to me the only true universal one.

There is interesting research done by Antonio Damasio, a neuroscientist who has studied people with brain injuries damaging the part of the brain where emotions are generated. They were normal in every other respect, but had lost the ability to feel emotions. Damasio found these folks were seriously impaired in their ability to make decisions - they could logically spell out what the pros and cons of each choice presented to them, but couldn't make a decision. And since there are usually pros and cons on either side of each potential decision, we use emotion to help us make that pivotal final choice, even when we think we are being totally logical.

I think people who insist that they are being purely logical are demonstrating the highest level of illogic possible!

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Peacebaby, as far as Fe users just owning their feelings instead of having to talk to them to someone else -- the problem is, I am never sure if I am right. I need corroboration.

Thanks Tilty ... what is it about being right? I have said before that Te and Fe always need to be or think they are right, so maybe this ties into that. It's never just about feeling though, eh? It's about determining whether those feelings are justified.

So what feelings should I have silently owned? Feeling rejected and manipulated? Beginning to suspect she didn't like me at all? Beginning to feel angry with her?

Owning feelings means that you accept that you are the originator of them and don't attribute them to being caused by anything outside yourself. It's not like other people dump a whole bag of annoyance on you if they show up late for example, you choose to feel angry. Since you choose to be angry, you can also choose not to be. Now, I am grossly simplifying the idea of choosing how to feel and I am not saying you let other people walk all over you, nor am I saying you don't pay attention to those emotional message prompts. But if you don't vent off those feelings, what will happen? Will you "blow up" on the other person or yourself?

Yes, I want feedback when I'm venting about a person. I am hoping they will tell me something that sheds light on behavior that's, to me, clearly wrong, and absent some excuse or reason, indicates a bad intent. Also I'm hoping if they think I'm being hysterical or too critical they will say so. I want them to have a reason, though.

Cool, thanks for that.

I don't want to hurt peoples' feelings, but I am more interested in being a good friend to them than I am concerned about their feelings.

Fascinating. Thanks again.

-----

Thanks Tallulah, Z Buck and fidelia too, more to share on your posts later. It's all great stuff you have shared. I find a certain delightful irony that we (Fi and Fe) both need to vent from time to time, but the causes of that and the contents of the venting are oh so different.

 

[Orangey]

“Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions.” - David Borenstein

To be clear, no Jungian function is "logical," per se. Certainly not by any strict definition of the word. The judging functions have a desire for particular kinds of results. Te looks for efficiency, practicality and optimization. Fe looks for harmonious congeniality and diplomacy. Fi looks for things being "right." Ti looks for things being "correct," occasionally being interested in being logically correct.

Right. So?

The cognitive process, human thinking in general, is not "logical." Normal human thought is, in fact, beyond logic.

Again, so what? What does this have to do with what I said?

Computers are necessarily logical, in the strict sense. Yet the things that a computer does can be completely unreasonable, irrational, and bizarre, all the while being entirely logically correct.

Yes, this is why something can be rational and not necessarily logical. I already said that.

It is entirely possible for "feelings" (I'm using the word VERY loosely) to result in an absolutely correct "logical" conclusion, even though logic was never consciously applied.

A conclusion in and of itself cannot be said to be logical. It can only be said to be logical if it is implied by a valid form of argument. Thus, if I come to a conclusion by way of "feeling," and I reconstruct it as some argument after the fact, that is a rationalization of what was originally a non-logical process. And rationalization is fallacious.

It is certainly possible for "feelings" to be far more reasonable, rational, wise and understanding than any "logical" computer.

Again, I already said that feelings (as in MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational. I never implied that because feelings were not logical, that they were not rational or valuable. In fact, I explicitly stated the contrary.

Logic is, in human cognitive terms, no more than a metric of self-consistency. It requires a human mind capable of perceiving and judging to credit any logical statement with any degree of real validity.

No, validity is a measure of logical correctness, and logical correctness alone. An argument is valid if its premises always lead to true conclusions. It takes a human mind to determine whether a logically valid statement is sound, or whether the premises are warranted.

So, by Orangey's standard, hardly anything anyone says or does is "logical." When one says something like, "unless it [venting] really goes off the rails of logic," criticizing such by saying that venting cannot be logical in the first place is to be obtuse. The statements of the venting can be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis.

Again, if the statements of venting can be shown to "be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis," then it is merely through a process of rationalization. That doesn't mean that feeling is logical.

And given the context of the statement, there is a "fuzzy logic" standard implied, where one's statements are predominantly valid without being 100% logically correct by some arbitrary standard.

Again, validity is strictly a measure of logical correctness, so you are incorrect.

Thanks, uumlau. I read Orangey's response and debated how to respond to it (thanks too Orangey for your post). Because, as you say, when it comes to human thought, there really is no such thing as yielding pure "logic" - feelings are our first language and to me the only true universal one.
.
.
I think people who insist that they are being purely logical are demonstrating the highest level of illogic possible!

Thanks too for your post in response. To be clear, I never insisted upon being purely logical, or implied that by being purely logical, one would come to more perfect conclusions. I simply stated that venting is not logical, and that to hold venting to standards of logic is to destroy the purpose of the act.