[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[onemoretime]

Interesting. Unless the person is about to do something incredibly stupid by acting upon those feelings, to me it doesn't occur to ask if they're justified. They are to them, period. And I will first see them through those emotions before I start tackling whether to act upon them and in what way.

Edit: for that matter...does that mean that what O did in the op, which is try and offer suggestions for the the behavior of the ISFP to the frustrated ISTP work for you guys then? Does it provide that context for those feelings? Is that what you need? Or do you first need time and space to vent those emotions before you're open to that as well?

Yup. You're feeling that way for a reason. The trick is to figure out why.

 

[Amargith]

Oh.. well, to be clear the 'is it justified' piece stays in my head... I just might ask questions to learn more about why they're feeling what they're feeling, and it's the question-asking itself that might not be what's desired.

*mulls*

Could you be triggered to show that 'justified' part if you felt it was imperative to make them understand that what they are feeling would be disastrous to act upon? As in...not taking the time to validate their feelings coz there's more at stake? for that matter, what happens if the answer to your 'is this justified'-question is no? Do you share that with them? How so?

I can see Fi-users skipping the being nice and listening phase, if they feel core-beliefs are being affected. For that matter, O restrained herself with the ISTP, trying to stay openminded but her reaction here showed that her corebeliefs were definitely triggered.

 

[Orangey]

Interesting. Unless the person is about to do something incredibly stupid by acting upon those feelings, to me it doesn't occur to ask if they're justified. They are to them, period. And I will first see them through those emotions before I start tackling whether to act upon them and in what way.

What if they're being manipulative or simply trying to attract attention to themselves? I truly hate when people say "but they're my feelings" as though that excuses them from having to make sense (not that you do, but a lot...and I mean a lot...of people do.)

 

[Amargith]

What if they're being manipulative or simply trying to attract attention to themselves? I truly hate when people say "but they're my feelings" as though that excuses them from having to make sense (not that you do, but a lot...and I mean a lot...of people do.)

That behavior still stems from an unanswered need from within...its triggered by a powerful urge..a powerful emotion. As annoying as it may be, they may not even be aware of it and are in the process of trying to figure it out. Making sense at that point might not be a possibility for them..or it might be something they're not interested in. Either way, I find that staying calm and giving them the choice to either look in the mirror and self-reflect or opt to run off is what works. I won't indulge in their game, but if they're genuine about wanting to dig within themselves, then I'll gladly lend a hand

Also realize that when it comes to an Fi-user ( I know you're not specifically talking aout those but, i wanted to add this), it's often very hard to translate that 'hunch', that feeling of 'something's off!' to logic. It takes work, gives us migraines and tires us out. All we know is that "something doesn't *feeeeel* right!" Now, you may be right that it's totally unrelated, whatever is setting off that feeling, but we need time to reflect and pinpoint the reason for that thing feeling off..and that can take a while, especially if it's driven by one of our fears and it won't happen when under heavy fire of your Ti, sorry...that just makes us dig in our heels.

In a way, we're asking you to be our sound boards, but if you dismiss our hunch, it'll backfire into a defensive stance that doesn't get anywhere and just contributes to the migraine..on both ends.

 

[Southern Kross]

Fi's requirements to make changes or feel better are so different that I don't think it's easy for a Fe user to see what they are. Anything we would normally do is seen as intrusive or unkind. Action is not what's needed. The way we would normally discuss, vent or draw feelings out of someone more like us is seen as a little invasive. I have a better idea of where the problem lies than I once did, but I still don't have much idea of how I could actually help a Fi user in trouble, and it is very frustrating to me that I can't.

I can see how frustrating this must be. I actually couldn't tell you what I needed anyway other than the best way I know to comfort others (albeit rather awkwardly). I never know whether I should ask about something that's clearly troubling, but the chance that they might feel uncomfortable about it, makes me inclined to leave this up to them - they can talk when they want to and I will wait until they indicate I am needed (although this is not necessarily through literally asking for help. It can be much more subtle than that). I guess its patience, discretion and unspoken support. I've realised in the last few years just how much my ISFJ Mum does this for me and I'm surprised and touched because it is not her natural approach at all.

Conversely, when I see someone spending so much time wrangling with the emotion and how they got there and what it means, I often am looking at the bigger picture and how it will affect their lives and others, because to me, once you've figured out that you don't have to give a lot of credence to the feeling, why wallow in it? (I know that's not an Fi perspective, and is probably nails on a chalkboard to y'all.) This is why therapy can really help me when I get in a depressive Ti loop. It helps me if someone can give me that big picture perspective and show me where my feelings went off track. Y'all trust your feelings to guide you, but mine are often errant, and are sometimes born of unrealistic fears. So of course, we're going to think everyone thinks like we do, and "helpfully" give our perspective (and vice versa). I can think back to minor clashes I've had with people about stuff like this and recognize now it's because they were Fi dom/aux. I didn't realize it or know anything about Fi then. It definitely would have helped me understand them better.

I can't think of a time when I thought an Fi user was using their feelings as a powerplay...can you think of an example when you or someone you know were accused of that? I do know sometimes I've thought people were hanging on to feelings when they could do something to change the situation causing the feelings, because they enjoyed the attention and sympathy they were getting from others. I don't think that's the same thing, though, and I can't say whether they were Fi or Fe users.

This makes a sense, Tallulah, and I identify a lot with what you are saying here.

I would agree that digging around in the emotion itself is not useful to me, but rather having the right context and information to temper it with neutralizes it for me. I don't really trust my emotions as being particularly reliable for anything other than indicators that I need to look at what they are pointing to. When I come to a suitable course of action, I feel as if I also have some way to ameliorate the circumstances rather than just feel badly about them.

I don't really see it as wallowing although people often mistake it for this. But then I suppose you think it wallowing in the same way I see Fe as being afraid to face the darkness inside them and seek out real self-improvement and growth. I can detach myself from my 'negative' emotions to a degree, without any misery brought about by examining them - so there isn't necessarily any pain to wallow in. The understanding brings such comfort and direction to me because the unknown, and therefore, the untamed inside me is much more terrifying. It puzzles me that Fe don't seek this knowledge when it could help them, but then I suppose if you can so easily disregard your feelings, there is no need to overcome them.

I don't entirely trust my feelings either, as OA said earlier we take them as as source of possibly useful information but at the same time we accept their fallibility. And if I trusted my emotional instincts 100% I would never leave the house! I see their irrationality and in analysing each one, it is my job to evaluate whether they are reasonable or not and to choose whether I act in accordance with them or counteract their pull. I have also found that even when your feelings are wrong there is something to be learned from them - it may be as simple as recognising your inner fears or prejudices but it allows you to take conscious action to avoid such problems in the future. I guess I also fear that if I don't examine my faults and mistakes, I shall be doomed to repeat them over and other - I want to keep improving and developing as a person and an unconscious existence keeps me stagnant.

 

[cascadeco]

Sorry I didn't respond earlier; I wasn't really sure how to answer your question; when I first read it I wasn't quite grasping it, and I still might not be, so I'll just say what I think I do.

I actually relate to this (especially the bolded) and do a similar thing. Yet there is are some significant variations. I don't have such an ability to alter my own mood - I can't 'throw negativity out the window' as you do. My emotions have stronger roots than this - I can suppress the expression of them or redirect them but not discard them altogether.

I think it is that many of my emotions are tied to the angle that I'm looking at the situation; so if I switch angles, or perceptions - if I switch the things I'm really focusing on, or alter some of my 'premises' from which I'm basing everything, then my emotions might change. I mean, here's an example which is probably a poor one because things usually aren't this cut and dry - say I'm depressed about life because life seems to be about a, b, and c, and I don't like a, b, and c. Well, if I instead look at d, e, and f, or even revisit why I am perceiving a, b, and c as bad, then my emotions might change.

It seems you wish to change your outer mood by altering your inner mood (and believe them deeply interrelated?), however I can live with a disconnect between the two.

This is what I'm not sure of. But I think you are right, that I need allignment of my inner and outer selves. I see my external life as an extension of me, so unhappy internal me is not going to result in a good external life (outer mood? What I show to others? If I'm internally unhappy I'm not going to be able to extend towards others much at all, and will detach and possibly isolate myself)

I also desire to not be irritable and unpleasant to others but do not deny myself the right to feel such emotions internally. I also think of emotions as 'just feelings' but in the sense that they are inherently neutral - neither positive or negative in of themselves - like a wild animal acting on instinct. The negativity only comes if I allow them to negatively influence my behaviour.

Hmm... negative emotions affect me in a bad way physically. So negative emotions can be very unpleasant for me - I wouldn't call them neutral. So negativity is present even if I don't lash out externally or even convey most/any of it externally.

And believe me, I have a scary Te drill sergent in my head keeping things in line; she doesn't stand for any silly emotion outbursts, and if any occur, will berate me for hours, if not days or weeks afterwards. In my head however, I embrace this 'negative' emotion and seek to understand, then control and direct it on an appropriate course. I can think about my feelings rationally with some degree of objective distance without necessarily letting them bully me (and they are very aggressive and strong) into getting wrapped up in them and then letting them loose externally - although this has taken much practice. For me the important thing is to refrain from behave negatively, rather than refrain from thinking negatively.

Right, it's important for me too to not only refrain from behaving negatively (although my mute withdrawal might be considered behaving negatively?), and while it's impossible not to think negatively at times, I also just find it quite unpleasant so want to 'solve' for it as quickly as possible. Doesn't mean I ignore - I just really want to move past it. Depending on the nature of the situation, like I've said, sometimes it might take a really long time, other times I might bounce stuff off of others and get a new perspective which makes the emotion dissipate, other times it's something that I've learned I just need to ride out, & etc.

 

[cascadeco]

Also, I want to say that whenever I post in threads like this, I am never intending to speak on behalf of FeTi. At all. In fact I know based on reading what some of the other INFJ's write in various threads on here that there are some who really aren't going to relate to what I'm saying -- or at the very least, to the same degree. Just as I don't relate to some of the things other INFJ's on the board post. Same goes for NTP's, STP's, etc.

 

[Southern Kross]

Sorry I didn't respond earlier; I wasn't really sure how to answer your question; when I first read it I wasn't quite grasping it, and I still might not be, so I'll just say what I think I do.

You seem to be. Its fine to ask, though. I don't always know when I'm being incomprehensible

I think it is that many of my emotions are tied to the angle that I'm looking at the situation; so if I switch angles, or perceptions - if I switch the things I'm really focusing on, or alter some of my 'premises' from which I'm basing everything, then my emotions might change. I mean, here's an example which is probably a poor one because things usually aren't this cut and dry - say I'm depressed about life because life seems to be about a, b, and c, and I don't like a, b, and c. Well, if I instead look at d, e, and f, or even revisit why I am perceiving a, b, and c as bad, then my emotions might change.

This is fascinating. It amazes me that someone has that much control over their emotional direction; that your emotions are so relative and so within your power to change.

And if true for Fe general, it also explains A LOT of problems I've had over this in the past because, in spite of frequent demands, I cannot remotely do this. I can alter rational thoughts through looking at things at different angles, but not emotions. Asking me to change undesirable feelings by considering other, more positive, perspectives is like saying world peace is achievable if I just think happy thoughts.

This gives me much to think about - perhaps I'm not so emotionally retarded after all...

This is what I'm not sure of. But I think you are right, that I need allignment of my inner and outer selves. I see my external life as an extension of me, so unhappy internal me is not going to result in a good external life (outer mood? What I show to others? If I'm internally unhappy I'm not going to be able to extend towards others much at all, and will detach and possibly isolate myself)

Interesting. To clarify what I said: I experience a strong, conscious divide between what I express (ie. mostly shallow, temporary emotions) and what I feel (ie. deeper, more personally significant, longer term emotions) - so it is perfectly natural for me to separate negativity from what I feeling in the moment. This is not such a good example, but I can be rather depressed, yet smile and laugh with others like I'm really happy (and by this I mean I feel temporary joy, not pervading happiness - depression is still the more significant emotion to me). Therefore asking me how I feel is rather confusing to me, because, which sort of feeling?

Slightly OT:I once saw a really interesting lecture on youtube from TED talks about this: it was about the difference between 'the experiencing self' (momentary feelings) and the 'remembering self' (deeper, more enduring feelings and memories) - so everyone has this, but perhaps some are more conscious of it than others? It was so strange watching it because its fascinating when science matches your instincts.

Right, it's important for me too to not only refrain from behaving negatively (although my mute withdrawal might be considered behaving negatively?), and while it's impossible not to think negatively at times, I also just find it quite unpleasant so want to 'solve' for it as quickly as possible. Doesn't mean I ignore - I just really want to move past it. Depending on the nature of the situation, like I've said, sometimes it might take a really long time, other times I might bounce stuff off of others and get a new perspective which makes the emotion dissipate, other times it's something that I've learned I just need to ride out, & etc.

I see. You seek to move forward too, but do so by not dwelling on things. (And I don't see mute withdrawal as negative behaviour - it makes sense to take the time to process things)

So does this mean you put less stock in your emotions, that is, beyond their windsock-like quality? Do you think them somewhat meaningless because they are so relative to your perspective?

 

[Fidelia]

In answer to the last question - yes! New information or perspective puts things in a whole different light for me. I can't just will myself to "get happy" about something, but tempering it with other things does change what it is. This is one of the reasons that I need to get other people's reactions to something. Is there something I'm not seeing, information I don't have, is my perspective being coloured by something that I am not aware of, do others see my reaction as reasonable given the circumstances?

I like your comparison of emotions having a windsock like quality. For me, that is certainly true. This is one of the reasons that I don't find it that valuable to spend a lot of time examining the emotion itself. It can tell me what way the wind is blowing, if there is wind, or direct me to looking at whether the wind is doing any damage, but other than that, it doesn't in and of itself do anything much for me. I think this is indeed why Fe tends to pass what is felt as judgements of Fi emotion. We appreciate that being done for us, and even sometimes when we don't appreciate it, it does change our way of acting or looking at things. While I cannot control what emotions come upon me, information/context that I or others may find can influence how I react to it and how much harm negative emotions can do to me or others.

With respect to Fe being action oriented, I think I see it like this. It does not help me to analyze what causes certain storm systems to develop right when there is a tornado headed directly for my house. What I need to know is if there is a way for me and my family to make it out alive and if there's any kind of damage control I can do before the tornado hits. All the tornado does is informs my course of action. It doesn't in and of itself mean anything to me if there is no kind of preventative action I can take to keep it from coming my way. If on the other hand, someone were to inform me that the tornado is coming near my community, but will not actually hit it, I would turn my efforts towards some other course of action that is more relevant than packing a few important items and getting away as quickly as possible.

I see my emotions similarly. There are key pieces of information that greatly influence what my course of action is and that alter my perspective on a situation. This is one of the reasons why I find it very difficult to act in the moment. I end up looking at it from a bunch of different people's perspectives. Then even when I have a strong belief that there is a reason that I feel as I do, I must pinpoint why with concrete evidence, or be able to prove a clear pattern. Then I try everything I can to fix it. These perspective shifts can be very frustrating because sometimes by the time I realize how serious a problem is with someone, it has become a deeply established pattern that is difficult for me to extricate myself from. This is why sometimes I rely on on other people to validate my negative feelings before I trust them, because I am not sure myself if it is just the vantage point I'm looking from that makes the world look that way.

While some emotions or reactions seem to be slightly delayed for me, I have a very hard time separating my inner feelings from how I express myself outwardly. Therefore, it is essential for me to vent off the toxic stuff or get some different perspective before doing or saying something that could be very damaging to those around me. It does seem to me that NFPs are more able to separate the inner feelings and outer expression a little differently than I can.

I don't consider emotions completely meaningless, but I also do not especially trust them to not be fickle. For me personally, most of my feelings about someone are coloured by my last interaction with them (not the present one) because it takes time for me to process things. Therefore, I may discover after the present interaction that something is bothering me, or that I feel more positive about someone and I need time to figure out what gave me that feeling and then what the implications of that are for the next interaction.

Negative emotions also affect me physically. I definitely see negative emotions as toxic, not because I'm afraid of looking at sad or angry things, but because they have a very deep impact on me and on how I relate to others. Even when I think consciously that I am handling things as well as possible, focussing on doing what I can to improve things and letting go of what I can't, it comes out in dreams or in physical symptoms like nausea, extreme fatigue, stomach pains and cold extremeties. It is something that I want to get past or resolve, because it makes it difficult for me to go on effectively.

 

[Fidelia]

BTW, I thought that the Fi crowd's objections to OMT's stuff and his defense were really interesting, as it was a mirror of the problems I experience with Fi and Te.

He stated something that he couldn't know for sure in terms that sounded definite, but which he assumed all would verify (went without saying). Fi users were a little appalled as they would use qualifiers if there was a situation where you couldn't know those variables for sure. Similarly, I over assume that Te users are as sure of their hypothesis as they sound when they present it, not realizing that they assume their hearers would verify and point out flaws if something needs adjusting. I also find myself getting frustrated when Te overgeneralizes and doesn't use qualifiers, while Te users get annoyed at my wordiness and unsure tone.

 

[Tallulah]

Also realize that when it comes to an Fi-user ( I know you're not specifically talking aout those but, i wanted to add this), it's often very hard to translate that 'hunch', that feeling of 'something's off!' to logic. It takes work, gives us migraines and tires us out. All we know is that "something doesn't *feeeeel* right!" Now, you may be right that it's totally unrelated, whatever is setting off that feeling, but we need time to reflect and pinpoint the reason for that thing feeling off..and that can take a while, especially if it's driven by one of our fears

I don't entirely trust my feelings either, as OA said earlier we take them as as source of possibly useful information but at the same time we accept their fallibility. And if I trusted my emotional instincts 100% I would never leave the house! I see their irrationality and in analysing each one, it is my job to evaluate whether they are reasonable or not and to choose whether I act in accordance with them or counteract their pull. I have also found that even when your feelings are wrong there is something to be learned from them - it may be as simple as recognising your inner fears or prejudices but it allows you to take conscious action to avoid such problems in the future. I guess I also fear that if I don't examine my faults and mistakes, I shall be doomed to repeat them over and other - I want to keep improving and developing as a person and an unconscious existence keeps me stagnant.

I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.

I don't really see it as wallowing although people often mistake it for this. But then I suppose you think it wallowing in the same way I see Fe as being afraid to face the darkness inside them and seek out real self-improvement and growth. I can detach myself from my 'negative' emotions to a degree, without any misery brought about by examining them - so there isn't necessarily any pain to wallow in. The understanding brings such comfort and direction to me because the unknown, and therefore, the untamed inside me is much more terrifying. It puzzles me that Fe don't seek this knowledge when it could help them, but then I suppose if you can so easily disregard your feelings, there is no need to overcome them.

Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play.

*mulls*

Could you be triggered to show that 'justified' part if you felt it was imperative to make them understand that what they are feeling would be disastrous to act upon? As in...not taking the time to validate their feelings coz there's more at stake? for that matter, what happens if the answer to your 'is this justified'-question is no? Do you share that with them? How so?

(please don't quote this part; I might remove it later)

<removed>

I think the key is to validate the feeling and the frustration, and then gently suggest there are alternate ways of viewing the situation. I'd never just jump right in and make her feel like she's wrong. She's venting to me because I'm her friend, and it's a safe place. If I went straight to correcting her perception, I'd feel like a crappy friend. If I didn't correct it, I'd feel like a crappy friend.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Pondering what to say to you onemoretime ...

Once again, it's not what you're saying - it's the way you're saying it; i.e. exactly what you're criticizing me for.

I guess it didn't seem authoritative to me, because I figured you would naturally question my authority on the subject. Satine provided a good example of that - praising the effort, while providing a few pointers on my technique. What's more, she did this on my profile page, which is a far more appropriate forum for this sort of correction, since there's much less risk of public shaming.

Just to be clear, "that makes sense" doesn't mean "this is what has to be true". It's more like "I'm OK with this as a hypothesis, because it's internally consistent." I did not do a good job of conveying that, and I apologize.

First, there is no need to apologize to me. I shared my thoughts on your posts because they raised some concerns for me, but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate your effort to convey what was in your heart and share it in a style to try to reach Fi users in general. And I got straight to the point, I suppose some people call that Te style.

Maybe it's hard to read Te without hearing Fe when you're an Fe user. And vice versa. I hear Fe like it's Te sometimes. Maybe that's the crux of the whole OP.

At any rate, it wasn't my intention to cause you any pain or embarrassment here, and if I did, I apologize for that. You intrigue me; I wanted to press you a wee bit, to see how you would expand if I took your posts head-on. And I am impressed that you kept your head on, nicely done.

You may wonder why your approach there resonated less with me. As a quick summary, I recognized potential pitfalls contained within those words you shared, and not only how they can be mistaken for fact but how they can be grabbed onto by the idealistic. So, if it's helpful for future reference, if a "mature" INFP were to share this level of conclusion to the outside world, it would be done with less dramatics (I think) and only after a great deal of intuiting, reflection and direct research into the situation itself. The kind of Fi-out you shared had more of an ENFP flava to it (love to my ENFP cousins).

And to you once again, onemoretime. Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you share more.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Ha, that sounds fun. No, I can't toss them out the window. Until they are solved, they are present. Someone else's rationalizations bear less weight than my own comprehensive analysis. I don't (or can't) rely on bouncing this off another person and them telling me I am overreacting (for example), because that doesn't actually make the emotion go away. Only my internal process and understanding leads there. When I talk about my feelings, that lets me get further faster sometimes.

I think something that may be important to point out is that someone else’s feedback is only useful to me when it helps me make sense of the emo mess I’m feeling. It’s not like I can use the advice of the first person to cross my path to get rid of unpleasant feelings- I WISH that were the case. It isn’t as easy as someone suggesting to me that I’m overreacting. I would need for someone to explain why they think I’m overreacting. If they can provide details that hadn’t occurred to me on my own- but are relevant to the situation at hand- then their feedback can be really useful. Indeed, if someone tells me I’m overreacting- but I get the distinct impression they haven’t actually put much thought into my point of view, and are giving me this feedback merely to calm me down in some generic sense- it can be like throwing gasoline on the fire. The emotion only goes away when a solid reason is provided to help me see why it’s a waste of energy. And the reason I’m bouncing it off of someone (as many have said, I’m careful who I bounce things off of) is to find out if it is a waste of energy. If it isn’t- then I feel ‘justified’ to take necessary action to make it go away. But my point here is: just because someone else says it’s a waste of energy, doesn’t mean I’m going to believe it. So someone else’s rationalizations will always bear less weight than my own comprehensive analysis too, it’s just that I’m more impatient with the process? I look outside myself for possible clues on getting the conclusion faster because I want it to be done. Still- if all the pieces don't slide into place, then the feedback isn't useful to me.

I am inclined to agree with what Tallulah and Fidelia touched on a few pages ago, about how digging around in emotion often seems unnecessarily taxing. I’ve got a short fuse for someone dumping bucket after emo-filled bucket on me. I don’t think there’s anything ‘wrong’ with needing to do it, but I think people who need that should get it from each other (Tallulah has already said this, I’m agreeing). Like it was discussed in some other Fe/Fi thread a while back: Je’ers don’t like hearing about the infinite little details that lead to some final conclusion, they just want the conclusion. I can understand wanting to bounce Ji off of someone: I love delving into details with someone else who also loves the same kind of detail, because it’s an opportunity to sate that introverted urge to find the perfect answer while extroverting it. It’s the proverbial chocolate meets peanut butter moment.

My point overall here is, it sounds to me like a lot of us are actually describing the same thing from different ends. It’s just that Fe’ers are more impatient with the process? They want the emo to be decided, they want the conclusion faster- they don’t want to put all the time into it themselves when others might have answers. We don’t relish in exploring that stuff the way Fi’ers do?

It’s probably worthwhile at this point to toss in a ‘half-baked’ disclaimer, ^this is all something occurring to me now. It’s just that it seems like we’re all describing something more similar than not.

[edit:]

I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.

Okay, whew, I'm not the only one. I think. It's late, and I can be a penultimate misunderstander- but I think Tallulah is kinda saying something similar here. My post just adds: (and I can't stress this enough) mirrors only work when we trust the mirrors judgment, and the information has to make sense or we can't use it- but in the end it's the most efficient way to check ourselves?

 

[Tallulah]

Yep, I will sign off on all that! ^^

Also, I wanted to say that I definitely agree with fidelia about feeling the negative emotions physically, too. To the point where I feel ill, anxious, shaky, etc. So in a way, it is something that needs to be purged, and the sooner, the better. Having a new perspective or an action to take is the only thing that lifts it. Examining the emotion for the emotion's sake only makes me feel worse. I don't know what to DO with that information in the situation I am currently in. I do feel like I try to head off the warning signals to the negative stuff early, so I'm dealing with a manageable thing rather than a monster emo blowout. It's when I'm blindsided that I go into freakout vent mode. It feels like spinning out of control on an icy road.

 

[Amargith]

Ok..this thread is growing at a rate that I am regretting not being able to answer to it all, but I will try. I'll add this for now to what tallullah and Z are saying:

It does seem like we need the same thing, just different focus. It seems that Fe-users want an answer as it soothes their need for a goal, the direction to take, whereas Fi-users cannot assimilate something alien to them. Something foreign. While inherently, what the other you're venting to is saying might be the right thing, it doesn't get recognized by Fi as being true, yet at least. To get it absorbed by the Fi-worldview, I at least need to assimilate that thing on my own terms, which means fleshing out where my Fi went 'wrong' in the first place so I can ID it next time I encounter it...if it was wrong at all! Having an instant solution is nice and all, but it leaves me with a bundle of insecurities and questions..which is why I prefer someone provoking questions in my head so I can find my way through my own logic and 'reroute' Fi.

This is why I'll do the same with others..and sometimes they do get annoyed with me when all I do is ask them questions and bounce their own insecurities back at them till they figure it out. All they want is an easy answer already, whereas I don't want to impose my own views and decisions on the situations onto them...as to me, that worldview is highly individualistic and I'm unlikely to have a roadmap to your emotional world. If I do have a roadmap (because I know them rather well for instance), I'll be more bold and feel more secure in giving them Te-instructions as to what to do. Often, if I sense someone is incapable of getting out of an emotion, or has a situation they want my advice on quickly, I'll do a small interview, with a bunch of questions to get a better feel on the situation, but also on how they work as a person, so I can read the roadmap for them and spare them the agony of having to figure it out themselves. However, that involves risks of alienation, not being understood properly if not done properly, and making the person feel even more alone if it fails, as well as giving them the feeling like you're trying to get rid of em. If done without enough care..it can mess the person up even more, I find.


Come to think of it...I've known many NFJs to do the same. But it costs time and investment to do this...and it seems that the shortcut version (often favoured by TPs, ime) of it rubs some Fi-users the wrong way, whereas it seems to satisfy and provoke thoughts in Fe-users (probably becoz the Ti helps them figure things out from there onwards). When you cannot demonstrate understanding of the roadmap within, your contribution doesn't have the right 'cookie' to get in, basically. And I wonder, if that's true for Ti-users as well. I can see that...I mean, when I'm brainstorming a topic, and I don't connect all the dots logically because I'm brainstorming and still working out the kinks, they get on my ass about not making sense, whereas I assume that if I give them the blueprints they can work out the kinks themselves and don't get why they're getting their panties in a twist

Meanwhile Fi-users tend to see what I'm aiming to achieve and look at the data I've provided, skip over the gaps and get what I'm trying to say, while helping me work out the kinks, as they can read the core of it. It's why I often find INTJs slightly smiling at me while they pick up my brainstorming and make it more logically solid, and effectively 'translate' it for Ti-users.

 

[Poki]

^ ^ This is a pattern I have noted here and in other threads - the Fe / Ti or Ti / Fe vantage point is the one that stresses this too. So, me pointing out the obvious, that the functions do not control behaviour per se, is patently obvious, yet here we are, presented with similar patterns time and time again.

I ask then, why? Can you explain the pattern outside functions? Because the pattern seems somewhat defined by them.

Thats because its an NeSi trait to objectively define patterns. Its an SeNi trait to subjectively define patterns. Defining patterns based on behaviour is an Ne trait as behaviour itself IMO is objective. Lets take "thinking" for example. Ni, Si, Ti thinking is all different, but we can easily classify it as internal thinking and group it as Ti yet how does Fi fit in? From an objective stand point someone goes inside there head and comes up with a solution. Ok is that really introverted thinking? I am sure that INTJs and ISTJs do this alot. Hell ISTJs are known as picky when it comes to accounting, etc. so they may spend alot of time in there head thinking. Is it an Si thinking pattern, an Ni thinking pattern, or a Ti thinking pattern? Sounds like a bogus pattern to even use introverted "thinking". My objective actions CAN mimick my INTJ dads alot when I want it to, its one way that can be used to disable people, to connect to them, etc. When I mimmick my dad I dont classify it as "thinking" or even Fi when I mimmick the loud/annoyed nature, I classify it more as relations and initially thought letting those relations I made into the real world WAS Ne(basically extroverting my Ni out into the world), but you know what its not Ne, its not brainstorming new ideas, its stepping sideways and "telling people your step".

So to judge someone based on objective behaviours could have you pinning an mimmicked action to a function itself. Or even pinning someone as Ne because objectively they can mimmick Ne by use of Ni. Thats what makes this whole typing system extremely complicated. It creates objective patterns that are not indicative of actual function unless you look beyond the objective pattern.

I have a new INFJ boss that is insistant that we cant really know what the other persons thoughts are. Its fun to watch INFJ/INTJ interaction because the INFJ will call out the INTJ on him getting sidetracked by Ni when it somes to meetings. She also IMed me and asked me if I would like to join this wonderful meeting we were having...I had missed the reminder and the meeting started 3 minutes ago. I laughed at that as I thought it was funny instead of taking offense. The kind/bluntness was funny. Its like i am gonna put you in your place, but do it with style. She had mentioned earlier that she was very picky on meeting timeliness and mentioned it in the same kind of manner. Its like hidden social skills.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Holy crap this thread grew fast!

 

[Southern Kross]

In answer to the last question - yes! New information or perspective puts things in a whole different light for me. I can't just will myself to "get happy" about something, but tempering it with other things does change what it is. This is one of the reasons that I need to get other people's reactions to something. Is there something I'm not seeing, information I don't have, is my perspective being coloured by something that I am not aware of, do others see my reaction as reasonable given the circumstances?

So how much of an affect does that perspective have on your mood? Is it a naturally difficult process (I think Tallulah said something earlier about the value of the assistance of a therapist in doing this) or is it simply relative to the strength of the emotion you are trying to overcome?

I admit I put a lot less stock in the outside information. I only take it on as far as it fits with personal instincts. For example, my perfectionistic streak (which is something that has particuarily baffled my Fe parents). In typical INFP fashion I am hyper-critical of things that I have created or worked on in some way. People around me will say how wonderful it is and I may even be rewarded for it but this fails to have an affect on me. As much as I value praise and other's approval, it means nothing if I don't believe it deserved. Actually, the fact that everyone is failing to see the flaws (or at least failing to acknowledge them) makes me more distrusting of their opinions. I suppose it looks nonsensical to others but the disappointment I feel is so persuasive, I can't help but trust in it.

This is not to say that if someone offers a perspective contradictory to my own that I will always dismiss it. Its only when the emotion is overwhelming that I can't ignore it and will dismiss other perspectives.

I like your comparison of emotions having a windsock like quality. For me, that is certainly true. This is one of the reasons that I don't find it that valuable to spend a lot of time examining the emotion itself. It can tell me what way the wind is blowing, if there is wind, or direct me to looking at whether the wind is doing any damage, but other than that, it doesn't in and of itself do anything much for me. I think this is indeed why Fe tends to pass what is felt as judgments of Fi emotion.

Interesting. I don't really think of my emotions in that way but I'm not entirely sure how I would define their influence.

How do you view the Fi process from the outside?

I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.

Of course, its much more admirable to admit you need guidance and seek advice than stubbornly cling to ignorance. But this makes me wonder if this is how Fe sees Fi - like we're foolish know-it-alls. The thing with Fi is that its not easy to justify to others being primarily driven by introspection and self-determined maxims. It sounds so vain and unreasonable. However I believe so strongly in its value and its ability to deal with the things life throws at me.

Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play.

Yes, I'm beginning to understand that now. Its interesting to think that when Fe seems judgemental and decisive, its actually asking a question - "she's a terrible person!(?)". But you can see why this is confusing to Fi, right?

 

[Orangey]

I admit I put a lot less stock in the outside information. I only take it on as far as it fits with personal instincts. For example, my perfectionistic streak (which is something that has particuarily baffled my Fe parents). In typical INFP fashion I am hyper-critical of things that I have created or worked on in some way. People around me will say how wonderful it is and I may even be rewarded for it but this fails to have an affect on me. As much as I value praise and other's approval, it means nothing if I don't believe it deserved. Actually, the fact that everyone is failing to see the flaws (or at least failing to acknowledge them) makes me more distrusting of their opinions. I suppose it looks nonsensical to others but the disappointment I feel is so persuasive, I can't help but trust in it.

This is not to say that if someone offers a perspective contradictory to my own that I will always dismiss it. Its only when the emotion is overwhelming that I can't ignore it and will dismiss other perspectives.

Even I can understand this, though. When I know that the praise I am receiving is disproportionate to the achievement, no amount of accolades will be enough to convince me otherwise. And I'm pretty sure Fi is one of my least used functions. Or at least most poorly integrated.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play... I think the key is to validate the feeling and the frustration, and then gently suggest there are alternate ways of viewing the situation. I'd never just jump right in and make her feel like she's wrong. She's venting to me because I'm her friend, and it's a safe place. If I went straight to correcting her perception, I'd feel like a crappy friend. If I didn't correct it, I'd feel like a crappy friend.

I found this fascinating, and am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the Fe/Ti perspective on this.

On one level this is not so different from the way I approach my own venting. Oftentimes, I am sending out a feeler for feedback from my friends about [insert the object of my venting here]. But at the same time, I would never want to state my objections in such a manner that they would be thought of as self-evident statements of fact. I would be horrified at myself if I thought I were doing this. So it sounds like the endgame isn't that different, but the style of delivery is.