[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[PeaceBaby]

It's almost like, if the ISFP mom is a bad mom, she deserves all the commentary raised against her. Is that how some folks feel?

 

[Tallulah]

It's almost like, if the ISFP mom is a bad mom, she deserves all the commentary raised against her. Is that how some folks feel?

No, but it's not irrelevant, because it means that the ISTP isn't just badmouthing someone JUST TO BE MEAN. It's born of frustration and trying to understand/reconcile within her own mind.

Can y'all not see how accusing the ISTP of being cruel when it likely wasn't her intention is kinda the same thing as the ISTP saying things about the ISFP? Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I have a giant problem with the use of the word "cruel" being used here. Apparently, it's a common word for Fi-ers to use, so it must not carry the same weight as it would to me. For me to call someone cruel, they'd have to be along the lines of a sorority hazer, that woman who pretended to be a teen boy on Myspace and made her daughter's friend commit suicide, an animal or child abuser, etc. Cruel is a loaded word. And again...I know Fi folks have a hard time with the fact that it's behind the other woman's back, but to Fe, cruel would be to say those things to her face, making her feel bad, when this was just a venting session, and the ISTP is likely just working through her feelings about the situation. The ISFP will never hear these things...hence saying them to a TRUSTED confidante. It's possible ISTP has more respect for the ISFP than it sounds, though.

I also know that Fi folk see this thread as a scientific exploration, instead of talking behind someone's back. It's not impossible for family members (or bosses, or friends) to find out what you've written about them online, especially if they check their own stuff on your computer. I don't talk specifics on this site, b/c I know things can be traced back to me. I just don't see that much difference in venting there and venting here.

 

[Tiltyred]

People who judge people who judge.

Just a point about Christians who do good deeds even when they are not feeling it: they do it for Christ's sake. Sometimes you don't get past your own human nature enough to be truly saintly and love every person and not judge anyone, but you can at least do what Jesus asked you to do, which is feed and clothe and shelter the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoners...It's like having a job. Sometimes you hate your stinking job, but you do it because it's your job. Well, sometimes you really don't feel like doing good works, but you do them anyway, because they need to be done and it's your job because took a vow to live as a Christian to the best of your ability. It's not personal, actually. It's not about liking the person so you decide you will help them, or about feeling generous toward someone, so you decide to take them in. It's not even about showing off. Even Mother Theresa said very explicitly that sometimes she wasn't feelin' it, not even a little bit, and some days she wasn't even sure there was a God.

Basing your Christianity on whether you feel like it or not is not a very good approach because of course you won't always feel like it. That doesn't mean you get to quit. You may actively dislike who has been put in your path for you to help, and that's too bad, too. Sometimes it's just like that. There are certain ways of being in the world that Jesus was very clear about -- pay your taxes, for example, whether you support the government or not. Be a lawful citizen.

I kind of see the church lady caught in that struggle. Sometimes when I've succeeded brilliantly in acting right, the more of a struggle it was, the more I would like to vent about how hard it is.

As far as some of the judgments on the kids, I wonder if she's saying the mother seems to have no plan to work with them -- she just holds the baby, as opposed to making eye contact with it, talking to it, encouraging it to talk, playing peek-a-boo or where's your nose etc -- same thing with the older child, who, when you speak to it, it just looks at you, and the mother doesn't prompt it to teach it basic conversation skills -- "Can you say hello to Mrs. Church Lady? Say hello." The kids run around like dogs -- as opposed to her reading them Dr. Seuss books or some other directed, interactive activity that would help them learn to focus and follow directions and be ready to learn in school. They don't eat food or seem puzzled by it because they're not encouraged to eat new things or to eat at all. The complaint seems to me to be more that she's not trying than about whether or not she is getting results.

I agree with whoever posted upthread that the church lady is judging the young mother as a mother, not as a person. She's evaluating her job performance. It's not so personal.

 

[Tallulah]

I agree with all that, Tilty. Well said. If we waited for our desires to line up with our duties all the time, we'd get very little done. Expecting her to be perfectly charitable of spirit even when she's frustrated likely causes conflicting feelings in her, too. Feelings that need to be resolved. Yes, she'll keep doing what she's supposed to, but how to reconcile her frustrations with the seeming ingratitude/incompetence/whatever she perceives in the ISFP? They have to be extroverted so she won't go nuts.

I will say, though, I wonder if the ISFP is depressed, too. It may be that she feels overwhelmed in her situation and is simply not up to obligations that might seem easily doable otherwise. I could be projecting here, though.

 

[Tiltyred]

I can surely imagine she'd be depressed and confused.

 

[A window to the soul]

Complaining behind someone's back is a counter-productive waste of time and energy. I'm struggling to find any benefits.

 

[Tallulah]

Complaining behind someone's back is a counter-productive waste of time and energy. I'm struggling to find any benefits.

You also lean waaaaay closer to Fi than Fe. Fe needs to vent, and doesn't view it as "talking behind someone's back."

 

[A window to the soul]

Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would help the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

In summary, I'm not holding in any negative feelings; thus, there's nothing to vent about. Why? Because I've taken action to solve the problem or facilitate positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night.

^And that's who I am.

 

[Tallulah]

Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would be helping the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

In summary, I'm saying I'm not holding in any negative feelings at all. There's nothing to vent about. I've solved the problem or facilitated positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night. I'm not suggesting anybody hold in any negative feelings. I'm saying take positive action.

^And that's who I am.

This is so self-righteous, I can't even. And it's not even adding to the discussion. It's spreading platitudes and flowers and saying what you would hypothetically do in a perfect situation. Which is kind of easy for anyone to do, who isn't actually in the situation.

 

[A window to the soul]

^ You don't know me: I'm a good person, I care about people, I hold no ill wills, and I help people when I can. I'm proactive. In my posts, I'm trying to convey that I don't fully appreciate what this has to do with Fe or Fi. I also don't see the ISTP/ISFP's situation as complicated.

With that said, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

 

[Orangey]

EW's post isn't meant to be extrapolated in the direction that Orangey is taking.

It's not like I got that from nowhere. Those are the implications of what she said.

I think to Fe-Ti, the veracity of the claims (or lack thereof, depending) is very relevant to the conversation that took place. To determine whether the ISTP was being overly harsh or not, it seems important to know whether the claims were valid.

I think in Fi-Te terms that perhaps is a separate issue. For me, it is one and the same issue, and that is maybe why there seems to be a disconnect.

Precisely.

The problem is that we don't have the benefit of all the information in order to make a judgement. We're extrapolating without sufficient data or verifying data, about both people really. It makes the discussion speculative at best.

Then why is it okay to come to the conclusion that the ISTP was definitively being cruel?

I think to Fi / Te, even if the ISFP mom was doing all the things the ISTP said (since the ISTP was speaking in a lot of absolutes and using dramatic prose, it is hard to imagine there's not some exaggeration, and if she really felt the children were being neglected it seems inconceivable that she wouldn't have already contacted children's services), the ISFP mom still deserves to be treated with a core of respect. That's about the best way I can sum it up.

How do you know she's not being treated with "a core of respect?" Are you saying that simply the act of venting behind her back means that the ISTP is not treating her with respect?

It's almost like, if the ISFP mom is a bad mom, she deserves all the commentary raised against her. Is that how some folks feel?

I agree with Tallulah's answer here.

Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would be helping the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

In summary, I'm not holding in any negative feelings; thus, there's nothing to vent about. Why? Because I've taken action to solve the problem or facilitate positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night.

^And that's who I am.

You don't know me. I'm a good person. I care about people. I hold no ill wills. I help people when I can.

Is this real? Hail, for an Angel of God is descended upon us!

I also don't see the ISTP/ISFP's situation as complicated.

That's because you're looking at it through the most simplistic (read: crude) possible lens.

With that said, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

I'm sure we'll get over the loss.

People who judge people who judge.

Just a point about Christians who do good deeds even when they are not feeling it: they do it for Christ's sake. Sometimes you don't get past your own human nature enough to be truly saintly and love every person and not judge anyone, but you can at least do what Jesus asked you to do, which is feed and clothe and shelter the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoners...It's like having a job. Sometimes you hate your stinking job, but you do it because it's your job. Well, sometimes you really don't feel like doing good works, but you do them anyway, because they need to be done and it's your job because took a vow to live as a Christian to the best of your ability. It's not personal, actually. It's not about liking the person so you decide you will help them, or about feeling generous toward someone, so you decide to take them in. It's not even about showing off. Even Mother Theresa said very explicitly that sometimes she wasn't feelin' it, not even a little bit, and some days she wasn't even sure there was a God.

Basing your Christianity on whether you feel like it or not is not a very good approach because of course you won't always feel like it. That doesn't mean you get to quit. You may actively dislike who has been put in your path for you to help, and that's too bad, too. Sometimes it's just like that. There are certain ways of being in the world that Jesus was very clear about -- pay your taxes, for example, whether you support the government or not. Be a lawful citizen.

I kind of see the church lady caught in that struggle. Sometimes when I've succeeded brilliantly in acting right, the more of a struggle it was, the more I would like to vent about how hard it is.

As far as some of the judgments on the kids, I wonder if she's saying the mother seems to have no plan to work with them -- she just holds the baby, as opposed to making eye contact with it, talking to it, encouraging it to talk, playing peek-a-boo or where's your nose etc -- same thing with the older child, who, when you speak to it, it just looks at you, and the mother doesn't prompt it to teach it basic conversation skills -- "Can you say hello to Mrs. Church Lady? Say hello." The kids run around like dogs -- as opposed to her reading them Dr. Seuss books or some other directed, interactive activity that would help them learn to focus and follow directions and be ready to learn in school. They don't eat food or seem puzzled by it because they're not encouraged to eat new things or to eat at all. The complaint seems to me to be more that she's not trying than about whether or not she is getting results.

I agree with whoever posted upthread that the church lady is judging the young mother as a mother, not as a person. She's evaluating her job performance. It's not so personal.

Agreed.

 

[Tallulah]

You don't know me. I'm a good person. I care about people. I hold no ill wills. I help people when I can. I have nothing more to add.

I'm sure you are. Unfortunately, that's wholly irrelevant to this situation. People are different. Some people need to talk about things to get a better understanding of an issue, which they do feel is necessary. There are 16 different MBTI types, which would seem to indicate we have different ways of going about things. You can't say that just because YOU don't need to, that no one ever should. You also can't make people behave like they would in your ideal world. People don't like being scolded. Your judgment is palpable.

I'm a good person who helps people and cares about people, too. But I understand venting. People don't have to be homeless or underdogs to deserve understanding.

 

[Athenian200]

Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would help the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

In summary, I'm not holding in any negative feelings; thus, there's nothing to vent about. Why? Because I've taken action to solve the problem or facilitate positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night.

^And that's who I am.

Well, that's good. Very admirable behavior, especially considering your own standards about venting.

But the thing you seem to be missing is that not everyone feels that way about venting. Some of us are built in such a way that we NEED to vent to someone in private about problems we're having with someone else. For us, not saying something negative to a person's face is a sign of consideration. I wouldn't tend to just act rather than think... because it's never obvious to me what the best solution is. It would be much more complicated in my mind, involving how it would affect other people, whether my assessment was right, or whether I had the right to act or not... and it would all be very frustrating. I would want to discuss the situation with others before taking action or saying anything, to make sure that my assessment was fair, and that I don't cause anyone unnecessary pain or concern due to my frustration and perception that there are problems.

For me, venting is about seeking validation of my feelings. When I don't get that, I don't function very well, become extremely detached/withdrawn, and end up trying to stay out of the situation completely.

 

[Tallulah]

Very well said, Ath! Totally agree with that assessment.

 

[A window to the soul]

I understand all of your positions. I'm not trying to take away from anyone here or shut down this thread. Nor am I sitting around judging anyone. I am simply sharing ideas and things I've recently learned. It's not necessary to respond to me as if I don't understand y'alls side. For heaven's sake, I do! I just want to share thoughts as well. Please let me do that in peace.

<3

 

[Tallulah]

I understand all of your positions. I'm not trying to take away from anyone here or shut down this thread. Nor am I sitting around judging anyone. I am simply sharing ideas and things I've recently learned. It's not necessary to respond to me as if I don't understand y'alls side. For heaven's sake, I do! I just want to share thoughts as well. Please let me do that in peace.

<3

That's fine, only your previous statements were kinda judgey. Go back and read them. You weren't saying that this is what works in your experience; you were saying that basically no one should ever need to vent, and that venting was always counterproductive. That might be true for a dom/aux Fi person, which I believe you to be. But it's not the case for an Fe user. When you imply that it should be, you can't really expect people to leave you in peace and not challenge what you're saying. If it had been clear in your posts that you understood there was another perspective, neither Athenian nor I would have felt the need to address that idea.

 

[A window to the soul]

That's fine, only your previous statements were kinda judgey. Go back and read them. You weren't saying that this is what works in your experience; you were saying that basically no one should ever need to vent, and that venting was always counterproductive. That might be true for a dom/aux Fi person, which I believe you to be. But it's not the case for an Fe user. When you imply that it should be, you can't really expect people to leave you in peace and not challenge what you're saying. If it had been clear in your posts that you understood there was another perspective, neither Athenian nor I would have felt the need to address that idea.

^ Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I can see how y'all would think that. Next time, I will add a few more pertinent details about where I'm coming from to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[Amargith]

I have 2 questions for Fe-users...

1) Do you find yourself easily venting to others about logical problems as well? I mean...Ti-stuff then. I know that when I encounter a snag in my 'logical' plan, in my Te, it frustrates me to no end and I'm likely to need to vent someone, especially if I'm stuck as it untangles things. Now, I have this with people as well, but way less. Most of the time, I can untangle that mess myself, by introverting, by considering their side, by understanding. Unless I get really stuck emotionally and someone really really really got to me, which requires me talking to someone objective to vent to as well as untangle the mess in my head. That would mean that I either a) don't have enough info on this person to see their side (and someone else might be able to see what I'm missing), or b) They really cross some core beliefs of mine as a person (which is why perhaps NFPs consider it harsh when you vent about someone behind their back...it looks like you're judging them as a *person* and not even doing so to their face). I've found though as time goes by that all people in the b) category are ultimately just really difficult a) people

The point is, if I vent, it's either coz I am unable to understand the person, which happens way less than the other reason, the fact that I cannot see my way clear of a logical mess. So I'm wondering..is that coz I'm not as good at Te as Fi, or is it coz Te is extraverted? Do you feel less likely to vent about problems with things than you do when the problem is people?

2) Many of you said that they're judging the job she did as a mother, not the person itself. What does a judgement of the person as a whole look like for an Fe-user? And how does it come about? How is it experienced? Is it ever personal?

 

[Randomnity]

If I count as a Fe user (I'd just say non-Fi user),

1) Do you find yourself easily venting to others about logical problems as well? Do you feel less likely to vent about problems with things than you do when the problem is people?
For me, it's any situation that has me frustrated. That'll often be what happens at work (mostly just commiserating more than venting). Actually, I think (in person) I'm more likely to vent about things than people, because the former doesn't require sharing private, possibly unreasonable thoughts. How I feel about things isn't personal whereas my feelings about people are almost by definition more irrational, emotional etc. And I do know that I have a tendency to judge people more than I should, so I try to avoid airing those thoughts publicly. But maybe the venting about people will be more intense (than about things) when it happens, because I'll restrain myself until holding it in becomes intolerable, and because the situation will usually have more emotions attached. In that case, it will certainly be vented only to trusted people who I don't think will share the information.

2) Many of you said that they're judging the job she did as a mother, not the person itself. What does a judgement of the person as a whole look like for an Fe-user? And how does it come about? How is it experienced? Is it ever personal?

I guess a judgement of the person would tend to be "he's an asshole" or maybe "we don't get along". It tends to happen when the person does things (usually more than a few) that show that they're inconsiderate jerks. Experienced? I don't spend time dwelling on it unless I'm forced to be in that person's company, which I would certainly avoid if possible. I'm not sure what you mean by personal. Of course it's about that individual person.

In this case I would imagine judging the mother personally by saying "she doesn't care about her kids", "she's cruel and abusive", "she's stupid", "she's (optional: white) trash", "she's ungrateful", etc. A few of these were implied by Fi but I'm not sure they were actually meant (she did say IF she cared then...., which is pretty close). Most of what the istp said was descriptive rather than inferring motives, though.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I too have some questions for Fe users (forgive the term):

1.) Rather than argue against the Fi position, can you accept it for what it is? That basically, inner and outer congruency are important to Fi users, and people who act one way but speak another way will appear somewhat illogical, inconsistent, even deceptive to us? I mean, Fi users = 50% of the population. You can't discredit the kind of effects your words about other people will have on them. It's not much different than Fe users complaining about Fi users venting on their inner state, believing they are trying to stir up other people with "drama".

2.) And is Fe venting generally about other people? That's the sense I get. The Fe users are feeling stuff that they believe is caused by other people, so they need to bounce it off a confidante as a kind of quality control check. Is that accurate? Do Fe users ever just own their feelings instead of needing to do an external check (do you know what I mean by that?)

3.) When you have an Fe venting session, do you really want to know what the listener is thinking? An Fi / Te user is going to try to solve your problems or counter any faulty emotional logic with a reality check. If you just need to be heard in your complaining about other people, what kind of information is best shared in response? Can you self-balance? Do you need to hear whether the listener thinks the feelings are justified?

And as I said before, I TOTALLY get the need to vent, and I can take it for what it is from the Fe users in my life. I mostly let it run its course unless it really goes off the rails of logic. Share more with me, Fe!


P.S. Aside from protean, no one has contacted me about doing anything to aid this family. Please let me know if you are interested, via PM or wall post.