^ yeah, pretty much everything uumlau said.
Not saying it's never innocent, but at the same time, sometimes, it's unequivocally full of intent. I think some people get a taste for the power they feel when manipulating the sexual interest/emotions of others. They get a kick out of it. And they use it to their advantage. Then they rationalize it /deny it by saying they are just universally friendly, that they are misunderstood, or whatever. They'd have to be incredibly interpersonally dense not to understand what they are doing. Like, beyond INTJ levels of denseness. I don't buy it.
well, yes and no. i think you're right in some ways, but not quite on target with the reasons.
if you look at this:
People think I find them special. No, it's just that I find everyone special.
How seldom many people seem to have the opportunity to feel valued by another. And I usually value all aspects, including personality, interests, viewpoint, gender. That results in people, during our first conversation, doing things like telling me something they "have never told anyone, not in two decades." Or getting interested in an intimate relationship.
I'm not leading people on, at least in my own mind. It's actually a human-to-human, deepest-level respect that's offered.
it becomes easier to understand why this sort of behavior is our baseline. i totally, completely agree with what leafandsky wrote. people say they feel comfortable around me, and that makes me happy. the personal "kick" i get comes from a sense of being able to empower others, not because i can
use others .people do the same things around me - spill their life stories, deep hurts, secret wishes, etc. and i respect them. i don't ask others to tell me these things, but often people do. i don't want to make them to do anything for me; generally, i just want them to be happy, whole people. i like being "in" with them, yes, but again, that's not a future promise, just a pleasing sense of being close to someone. there's no other agenda in my interactions usually than making us both feel good. there's no "let's keep this person on a string", nothing like that. even as much of a planner as i am when it comes to my day or month or trips, personal interaction is all about the present.
and i'm no angel, of course. the way i manipulate is more like this: i haven't turned in a report. i want to get out of being in trouble for not doing so. i go to my boss, talk with her for a while, empathize (naturally - no falsity there) with her about whatever's going on in her life... then kinda distract her... then mention some reasons why i am late... then she lets me off the hook. it's more about getting someone to like me than it is about their specific behavior, if that makes sense. it's very in-the-moment, again, much the same as what i was talking about with leafandsky's comment.
i also don't really like sexual manipulation, at all. maybe that's a personal thing, but i find the idea that someone would do things for me because they think i have sexual intentions kind of repelling. i don't want anyone to base their actions on something i may or may not do (i'm a P, after all, there's no telling!) i hate the idea that someone thinks i've
promised them something, because i hate being locked into things. i'd much rather have no relationship with that person than an expectation like that. but if you look at, for instance, NTJ-NFP banter on the forums, it's often sexually charged, but i'm pretty sure it's understood on both sides that there's no explicit expectations of follow-through. and that is pleasing to me, and i assume also to them. but once more, very in-the-moment. maybe if both people chose to follow up, there would be some kind of relationship, but equally both people could just leave the conversation feeling self-confident and sexy and mainly amused. i feel like that's how it goes IRL, too.
Salome said:
skylights said:
Fi is intrapersonal mastery, but not interpersonal, and flirting is an interpersonal communication.
Can you explain this further?
yeah. so flirting has to do with the messages you send
between people - interpersonal communication. an understanding of flirting entails being able to assess "direction" on both parties' parts - not just how they feel, but what they tend to do about it. in general, i think that FJs have a much better perception of
behavior than FPs do - after all, Fe is extraverted, and behavior around other people is an external, Feeling-domain issue. it occurs in the space "between" people. FPs, however, are much better at intrapersonal issues - completely within a person. that includes aspirations, emotions, ambitions, self-confidence. all internal people-issues. obviously our training grounds is within ourselves - hence blabbing about ourselves so often - but as we learn more about the Fi facets of our selves, we can use that knowledge to understand the Fi facets of others as well. it's not projecting onto others - though that can accidentally happen, certainly - so much as "knowing the ropes". every ship is a bit different, but once you understand general placement and connections, you have a decent idea of the rigging.
apply that to personal romantic interactions, though, and what you get with an FP is someone who's quite good at understanding what the other person
feels internally, but not what the other person really thinks about those feelings (because some people, Ti dom/aux especially, often choose to ignore them), or what they're going to do about them. someone who is not good at deciphering messages in the space "between" people. so while we might be great at cheering another person up, and making them feel warm and fuzzy inside because we have a good idea of how to manipulate the Fi rigging - their feelings about themselves, generally - we don't really have any idea of how to steer the boats, to extend the slightly ridiculous nautical metaphor. sure, i can get the mast up, but i don't know if the boat is going in my direction...
uumlau said:
but the cause/effect is not particularly evident.
yeah. we suck at identifying that.
i really agree with this. have we ever definitively nailed down what ENFPs do when sincerely interested in someone? i.e., behavioral patterns that reflect genuine, self-aware romantic interest?
related: like many IxTxs, i think ENFPs also pull away to assess at times. i'd be really interested in understanding how ENFPs work that out in their heads, as i imagine it's not unlike a short circuit event. i think this is one of our biggest failings, that we are mysteries unto ourselves at times. at least, i am.
i've decided that anyone interested in an ENFP* (particularly the female varietal) should wait until they get quiet, reflective, deep on them. i suspect that is the moment where we transition from our externalizing behavior to our inner core, and is probably a fairly good time to hit on us. why not be direct with someone already in a vulnerable state?
agreed on both counts. when i like someone i get hesitant, unsure, hyperaware of them and myself. i overanalyze with Fi. i guess the quiet comes from that overanalysis.
