sculpting
New member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2009
- Messages
- 4,148
So first-I would like to set the tone of this thread. This is an exploratory thread, not an attack, not even a complaint. I would request the thread remain civil and polite, if it is to be productive.
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Last year Tesla started a thread that went on for a long time called presumptuous Fi. One of the main complaints was that Fi users think they understand how other people feel and will insist others MUST feel this way, based on Fi observations.
"You look sad, so you MUST be sad". This works on other Fi users-dom to inf-but is FAIL on Fe/Ti users and is also pretty offensive.
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Symmetrically, Fe seems to presume to understand the motives of others around them.
"You acted this way, thus you MUST have been thinking this"
"You made a big public ordeal of the issue, thus you MUST be an attention whore."
"You were being very friendly and sweet and laughing, thus you MUST have been intending to flirt"
"You exhibit this behavior as an adult and it MUST because of the relationship with your mom as a child"
I suspect this may work well on other Fe/Ti users, but is a total FAIL on Fi/Te users. Perhaps this is the Fe/Ti combo working together, I am uncertain.
This most striking last year in some of the threads where ENTPs insisted that ENFPs had underlying conscious manipulative agendas.
On the receiving end, often the proposed motives seem incomprehensible. Sometimes, if phased as questions, suggestions or poised as potential possibilities, there can be great value in the Fe correlations. They are great starting points and external observations. But often are incorrect.
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The other aspect of Presumptuous Fe, is the presumption that Fe behaviors are "Obvious", "innate", "everybody does this" and the presumption that if you do not do them, you are broken and need to be quiet and simply conform.
Fe seems to assume that the individuals Fe values are the same values that the rest of society holds. Given half of society doesnt use Fe, this is false. But when the Fe user comments, they seem to think they are speaking for what everybody does...not what Fe users do. They speak in terms of "known" social truisms, which are not actually true. There is a very marked tendency to not want to analyze behavior in a way that segregates the group-Te categorization aka MBTI, but instead insist that the whole group conforms to the same set of motivators in the same way-Fe assumes we are all in the Fe group, and will be motivated using the same tools that motivate others in our group.
Forgetting that half the group doesnt use Fe.
I notice this the most in NTPs as I suspect it is almost subconscious at times given tert/inf placement.
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Again, I really seek feedback and communication, not to hurt other people or to work through a bunch of defensive Fi/Fe functional butthurt. I suspect that Fe users almost always have the best intent, and are not always aware of how this comes across and I would like a productive meta discussion not fighting or name calling.
Also, please! please! correct my above understanding if I have described things in ways that could be better described in other ways from the Fe perspective. I can only with work with the way I see the world-thus be default my descriptions will not suffice.
***********************************************************
Last year Tesla started a thread that went on for a long time called presumptuous Fi. One of the main complaints was that Fi users think they understand how other people feel and will insist others MUST feel this way, based on Fi observations.
"You look sad, so you MUST be sad". This works on other Fi users-dom to inf-but is FAIL on Fe/Ti users and is also pretty offensive.
*************************************************************
Symmetrically, Fe seems to presume to understand the motives of others around them.
"You acted this way, thus you MUST have been thinking this"
"You made a big public ordeal of the issue, thus you MUST be an attention whore."
"You were being very friendly and sweet and laughing, thus you MUST have been intending to flirt"
"You exhibit this behavior as an adult and it MUST because of the relationship with your mom as a child"
I suspect this may work well on other Fe/Ti users, but is a total FAIL on Fi/Te users. Perhaps this is the Fe/Ti combo working together, I am uncertain.
This most striking last year in some of the threads where ENTPs insisted that ENFPs had underlying conscious manipulative agendas.
On the receiving end, often the proposed motives seem incomprehensible. Sometimes, if phased as questions, suggestions or poised as potential possibilities, there can be great value in the Fe correlations. They are great starting points and external observations. But often are incorrect.
*************************************************************
The other aspect of Presumptuous Fe, is the presumption that Fe behaviors are "Obvious", "innate", "everybody does this" and the presumption that if you do not do them, you are broken and need to be quiet and simply conform.
Fe seems to assume that the individuals Fe values are the same values that the rest of society holds. Given half of society doesnt use Fe, this is false. But when the Fe user comments, they seem to think they are speaking for what everybody does...not what Fe users do. They speak in terms of "known" social truisms, which are not actually true. There is a very marked tendency to not want to analyze behavior in a way that segregates the group-Te categorization aka MBTI, but instead insist that the whole group conforms to the same set of motivators in the same way-Fe assumes we are all in the Fe group, and will be motivated using the same tools that motivate others in our group.
Forgetting that half the group doesnt use Fe.
I notice this the most in NTPs as I suspect it is almost subconscious at times given tert/inf placement.
************************************************************
Again, I really seek feedback and communication, not to hurt other people or to work through a bunch of defensive Fi/Fe functional butthurt. I suspect that Fe users almost always have the best intent, and are not always aware of how this comes across and I would like a productive meta discussion not fighting or name calling.
Also, please! please! correct my above understanding if I have described things in ways that could be better described in other ways from the Fe perspective. I can only with work with the way I see the world-thus be default my descriptions will not suffice.