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[Fi] Thought Experiment: Fi World

Xellotath

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Picture that somehow cognitive function preference was narrowed down to genetics and hormones. Next picture a biochemical bomb that instantly kills anything with a prominent Fe expression.

You know, maybe that's not scientifically feasible.

Fine! Picture a scenario where evil aliens visited the earth and somehow hated Fe people and holocaust'd them out of existence.

Ooh.. classy.

"What would a human world composed of only Fi dominants, auxiliaries, tertiaries and inferiors look like?"

Would we tear each other apart, or would we by the very nature of possessing one part of this pseudo-cosmic universal feeling / value function ... all get along so well to make the Carebears jealous?

[PS:
I love you Fe folks, this is nothing against you. I would defend you all from Xenu if I had a chance.

-Love, Xel <3 ]
 

sculpting

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It would always, always be a Te/Fi world....the two are intertwined and cannot be separated.

Society would be maintained via Te patterns of control and behavior, while very close relationships would rely on the subtle sweet beauty of Fi-the language of touches, glances, subtle needs of the individual, redrawing of boundaries, negotiation of needs. Make no mistake-there is such a thing as Te bonds that hold groups together stably. Society doesnt require Fe-only Ti requires Fe.

Ethical change on a large scale would be accomplished partially by subtle Fi nudges delivered to Te bearing individuals or by more loud Fi driven Te protests for change. The Te doms and auxs would control the form society takes and the Fi doms and auxs would serve as strong influential factors, by kicking the Te users in their Fi now and then.

Communication with associates would be direct and blunt in the day to day, even harsh at times, but productive and driven towards a common objective. Teamwork would be measured by what you contribute in terms of results to the group, not how you say it or who you know. Each person would take credit for the work they do and take credit for the mistakes they make. Ideas would be separate from people, while values would be internalized and considered the sacred domain of the individual-like invisible boundaries that are respected-until Te mandates they must be crossed.

Disagreements would be settled via open discussion, even escalating to hostility or by a silent withdraw by individuals. Fi is a bit passive aggresive.

Helping those in need would still happen-but it would be of a more immediate nature, to those in the greatest need, and be promptly followed by a lesson of how to help themselves. If they refuse to heed the lesson, then the aid rapidly falls off. A bit of Hunger, combined with boundaries teaches responsibility and the value of hard work.

Those in great need-the mentally ill, the very old, the very sick, the innocent-would be given care as they need it, as they cant be expected to care for themselves. It would not matter if they were part of a family or social group or not. Those in intermediate need would be expected to learn to cope and resolve problems and identify solutions themselves.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Maybe the aliens really loved Fe types and took them with them. They just made that really big explosion when they left so everyone else wouldn't feel bad about being left behind.

So then everyone else sits around asking if they did that.

"I don't CARE IF I DID THAT!" they yell. "But... did I do it? That explosion--was it me? O Gawd, it was, wasn't it? I'm... sorry? I DIDN'T MEAN IT! IT WASN'T MY FAULT! YOU'VE GOT TO BELIEVE ME!!"


But later....
 

Xellotath

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Orobas you hit exactly where I wanted you guys to expand.
See, to me, what you've described as in taking care of others, sounds like a utopia.

When I put myself in that scenario, as if I was born in Fi world, I realize that predicting other's emotional state would be far, far easier. I assume that there are behaviors you inevitably adopt in life to deal with our counterpart Fe, but if no one in this world was even forced to do all that adapting, then it follows communication would be far less obstructed.

Of course you would still have the good old S vs N. But given that we can all "access" that common space... could we sort of bridge that?

Furthermore, I think those with inferior Fi like ENTJs would probably be off-balance at some point.
Same thing if there's too much Te all over the place, the INFPs are bound to feel overwhelmed.
 

sculpting

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xello this is my dream world as well....

The S vs N is still an issue-just because of what we can see and what we cant see.. Heck even the INTJs think the ENFPs are weird and so on with Ne vs Ni. But the way we communicate, the way we act to change things around us, our motives, the way we influence others would all be the same, the way we show and express affection and agression would translate more cleanly.

In the real world, I suspect Fi users born to Fe parents fare better-as from birth they are having to learn to deal with Fe. My family is all Fi (my INFJ dada passed away when young), thus I avoided Fe users and thought many negative things about them when forced to interact-as I didnt understand they just speak a different language.

As for Te doms and Fi doms...I'd guess they almost work in different realms-Fi highly individual while Te is highly group oriented. I always wondered how they work in relationships, but I recall a few INFPs being married the Te doms and being happy...
 

Andy

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Sounds like a bad place to be an orphan. The worldly, organised TJs have "more important things on their minds than a bunch of urchins" and the FPs who care are a disorganised rable.

FP: There are children going hungry on the cold streets, we have to do something about it!
TJ: Are there no work houses? Round them all up and put them in an institute where their labours can pay for the cost of keeping them.
 

Red Herring

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If only Fi implies only Te we would also have a world without Ti. Apparently nobody sees a problem with that. No INTPs, no ISTPs, etc. ... never mind the coherence as long as it feels good - a question of time until the first bridges would collapse!

Next we would have to differenciate between a world where everybody is Fi dom or aux ... meaning low T all around...and everybody is driven by personal ethics (i.e. a world of Jeanne D´Arcs), which could possibly lead to tremendous conflict when those personal ethics collide, and a world where there simply is no Fe or Ti, but which includes people with tertiary or inferior Fi. This could get just as nasty if it means a huge crowd of Tes with a nagging underdeveloped Fi whispering in their ear (Light from Death note is a frequently used example on this forum).

Don´t get me wrong, a world with only Ti/Fe would be just as desastrous: All analysis and no action, sheepish group behavior, no moral lighthouses and social reformers, ... it´s a ying and yang thing!
 

Xellotath

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xello this is my dream world as well....

As for Te doms and Fi doms...I'd guess they almost work in different realms-Fi highly individual while Te is highly group oriented. I always wondered how they work in relationships, but I recall a few INFPs being married the Te doms and being happy...

It's funny, my situation is the polar opposite. My family were all Fe people, can't say after all we've been through that I have a clear advantage - I still don't understand them.

-- Allow me to phrase my idea in a would-be inflammatory fashion --

Are we not saying that a large obstacle for utopia are Fe users?


As crazy as it may sound in written form, I hypothesize that this ideal Fi world is at the heart of every ENFP "mission". You know, the source of our idealism. What makes us rebel and have a certain disregard for authority. At the end of the day, Fi world is kind of what we want.

So in an attempt to disprove my own theory, I figured "Xel, you're an idiot of course everyone in the world wants their own functions validated, and of course, what greater validation than having the whole world reflecting you?"

Ah-hah! This is where your wrong - I said to myself, like a schizophrenic skipping her medication.
Fe is kind of pragmatic, as long as you don't disrupt things and everyone gets along, its all good - the rest are conceptual extensions but they're not -felt-. Its not a matter of felt-meaning like us.

If they dont extrapolate to the rest of the world intellectually, Fe'rs couldnt care for the state of the worldl, or its symbols, or its messages or its inherent goodness or wrongness.

Therefore, I conclude that is strictly an Fi phenomenon (perhaps only ENFPs. Or in the worst case scenario, only me -sadface- )

Sounds like a bad place to be an orphan. The worldly, organised TJs have "more important things on their minds than a bunch of urchins" and the FPs who care are a disorganised rable.

FP: There are children going hungry on the cold streets, we have to do something about it!
TJ: Are there no work houses? Round them all up and put them in an institute where their labours can pay for the cost of keeping them.

HEY! Psh. Meanie. But in a way, your hypothetical TJ arrived at the same conclusion Orobas arrived at. She said something along the lines of, people should be helped and then co-erced into taking care of themselves.

-sniff- The oceans between us are illusory!!! <3 <3

If only Fi implies only Te we would also have a world without Ti. Apparently nobody sees a problem with that. No INTPs, no ISTPs, etc. ... never mind the coherence as long as it feels good - a question of time until the first bridges would collapse!
Next we would have to differenciate between a world where everybody is Fi dom or aux ... meaning low T all around...and everybody is driven by personal ethics (i.e. a world of Jeanne D´Arcs), which could possibly lead to tremendous conflict when those personal ethics collide, and a world where there simply is no Fe or Ti, but which includes people with tertiary or inferior Fi. This could get just as nasty if it means a huge crowd of Tes with a nagging underdeveloped Fi whispering in their ear (Light from Death note is a frequently used example on this forum).
Don´t get me wrong, a world with only Ti/Fe would be just as desastrous: All analysis and no action, sheepish group behavior, no moral lighthouses and social reformers, ... it´s a ying and yang thing!

Nonsense! We would have bridges. Problem is INTJs would force you to solve partial differential equations to get across instead of paying the toll. You know, trying to filter the rest of us with low IQs.

Also, we Fi folk have our Sensors too ;-; Dont forget them, they're kinda nice - and far more practical.

Fe world does sound absolutely terrifying, though. My bias, though.
 

sculpting

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Andy, Fi would help the weakest first-thus the children would be cared for somehow... i would almost argue institutionalized "care" such as an orphanage is Fe-ish in nature. I could almost see them being absorbed into families....

The reason this question-the splitting of society into two halves- interests me so much is that I have seen it work on a small group project at my company.

Our manufacturing area is filled with Te auxs and has a very no-no-nonsense Te feel.

One small group of our company is Led by an ISFJ and he leads by excluding people who speak directly up at meetings or against ideas in his group. As a result he has lost most of his Te doms/auxs but maintains several NTPs and other assorted feelers. Anything his group produces is very badly flawed and a source of constant infighting as he tries to get it manufactured-as it has to get into the hands of Te users....

Another RnD group was started by a demoted ESFP. His team was an INTJ, two ENFPs, and an ISTJ. These guys are rock stars at getting products across into manufacturing and accomplishing the impossible. The team is noted to be extremely open, direct, face problems head on and be very decisive. They are also dealing with mostly Te's on the receiving end. Their development times are at least a third of the development times of the first group-to the point management finally promoted the ESFP to VP and took all of the ISFJs people away.

It is a limited example but it highlights how innate communication diffs can influence group behavior. In this instance, as the group begins to be less diverse (all Te/Fi) group cohesion becomes much better and production increases.

It sounds like I am bashing Fe/Ti. That isnt the intent at all.....It has to work in the opposite way as well--the closer a group gets to (Fe/Ti) uniformity, the less conflict is seen and the smoother group dynamics must be-thus the higher rates of achieving whatever the group goal is??? (I realize I said "dream world" earlier but that's cause I am a whiny Fi user and alas, Fe can be a bit rough on us as we grow up so it is fun to imagine a world where we would be accepted for exactly what we are...)

As to red herrings point...I would say with no Fe users to understand Fe would not be needed. In the converse Fe world, I'd say no Fi would be needed as there would be no Fi users to understand.

But can Te suffice without Ti? I do now a couple of Te engineers who could build bridges....so I dunno....
 

sculpting

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I dunno red herring..

so I am only at 2:36-but Fi can be very distinctly empathic (by which I mean I very distinctly feel the pain and suffering of another as my own pain and suffering). This empathy forces me to help them, even if not in my own best interest. I actually love the speculative idea that we mirror others...an Fi user mirrors other Fi users well...a Ti user mirrors the analysis of another person and tries to match up their Ti idea to the other by a sort of back and forth comparison...mutual mirroring of the idea/emotions....

So I finished watching...there are pieces of this that could embody Fe, but so much of this could be captured by Fi and Te as well. The idea that Fi can not reach beyond itself and care for others in the world, serve as a force to bond others together is incorrect. I dont use Fe, yet I feel strong bonds of loyalty and commitment to many people around me. It feels like having my arms linked in their arms-even if I have never met them, and knowing that I will be there when they need me...and they will be there when I need them... The mechanics of the empathic connection differs from Fe, but it is functional..

The concept of empathy being the point of civilization...an empathic civilization, that is Fe i guess. I suppose the goal of Te would be something involving objective accomplishments-we would be bound as a group by what we have accomplished with an underlying emotive content.

It still seems to me that both Te and Fe could equally serve to detribalize and unify individuals into a larger group. So they could each exist in isolation..
 

skylights

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Fe gathers people for the sake of people.
Fi gathers people for the sake of causes.

they are both empathetic.

i tend to agree that Fi world seems like utopia... but to be sure, i know that i appreciate the loving warmth of my Fe dom mother and best friend. they are less universally accepting, and sometimes i think they sort of overlook very important things, but they are also more actively nurturing and stable than i am.

we are best together. :yes:
 

Hive

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Wouldn't this result in total anarchy and chaos since Fi is so subjective?
 

sculpting

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But Te is objective. Fi serves internally, Te serves externally. So no anarchy. Te may not be guided ethically, however greviously unethical behavior is inefficient, cheats the system of needed resources, disrupts the timelines and is dishonorable, thus not tolerated.

This question has been on my mind for about six months as I spent some time in the spring chatting with a very clever ENTP about how screwed up things can get across the Fi/Te to Fe/Ti boundary. It is very noticable in the ENTP:ENFP interaction because we love each other but also want to kill each other.

As we chatted, sharing our different views, we pulled the two groups apart, and suddenly the two halves fell into beautiful patterns. It was clockwork-for every question we asked, this split model worked. In isolation, each half seemed to make total sense and is stable. This is how I approach most type related questions nowdays....Hmm, that ESTP is doing this weird thing. How would this influence an ISFJ? What would the ISFJ do to influence an ESTP? and so on.

In combination, total disaster as we just keep misunderstanding each other over and over again. Between individuals it can be rough, but once you extend it to an organizational level, it can create havoc in groups. Under stress the two halves seem to migrate into opposite behavioral directions making things even worse. It appears perhaps evolution traded the ability to communicate effectively and understand each other, for the advantageous dissonance of the other half to produce new ideas. Out of endless conflict and unhappiness, comes endless potential for growth, I suppose.

Somebody got offended by my earlier post, which wasnt the intent. No doubt I get driven a bit nuts by some of the Fe users I work with, but on a meta level, I want to understand what and how to modify group interactions or rearrange people patterns in order to ease those frustrations. I would love to develop a system where you take a leader, take members of a group, then help the leader understand how to better interpret and motivate the group. MBTI and DISC teach that people are different and should be accepted as different. Neither seems to teach that the internal projections of the individual have to be set aside in order to understand others around you. I havent seen programs addressing taking type and then approaching an entire group either, granted I need to look more deeply.
 

the state i am in

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the rifkin empathic civilization ted-- i sent it to an enfp friend of mine. it expresses both of us.

the vision of Fe is distorted. we focus on goals, interaction management, articulation. all my infp friends love leonard cohen. Fe. the emotional articulation matches their own emotional awareness/sophistication.

let's look at a world with only Ni or Ne. it's an incomplete vision. it's either too much gravity = black hole or too much expansion with no connection, no orbits, no hierarchical purpose. it's emerson without whitman or vice versa. why?

Fi moves towards faith and Fe moves towards communication, articulation, effective encoding. you test the language and the message quality not the truth of the message against an internal framework. it's an output stage, but both forms are permeable and affected by the environmental conditions holistically. Fe types feel the interaction, the language, the signs, Fi types feel their own remembrances, their own judgments, and their own worldview.

taking these functions out of context doesn't really make sense as far as intent goes. maybe all i functions get slightly annoyed at their e counterparts for not being diligent enough, for hogging the floor, for pushing them out of the way and trying to control them. my mind, my memories, my learnings, my framework--don't fuck with it! we all feel like that in our own various ways. our inner sense of purpose (and perhaps self-righteousness). who we see ourselves to be. what is (at least as a process) consistent within us.
 

sculpting

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state I love your posts. Really, they make my brain tingle!!!

As for Ne-well NeFi. NeFi thinks everything is already connected. Fi says so-we are all one big connected blob-no arguments allowed, it is some sort of weirdly Fi-istic truth. So Ne just needs to find all the connections and map them out. Cause I know they are there! hehehehe. Ne just find stuff that Fi already knew was reality. Thus the result is a connected whole.

Hmmmm sorta like Fe in an INFJ uses Fe to connect people on the outside perhaps to reach the one answer that Ni says is the final truth? I really have no idea, I am just dancing in the wake of your Ni-isms cause they are very pretty!!
 

Starry

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taking these functions out of context doesn't really make sense as far as intent goes. maybe all i functions get slightly annoyed at their e counterparts for not being diligent enough, for hogging the floor, for pushing them out of the way and trying to control them. my mind, my memories, my learnings, my framework--don't fuck with it! we all feel like that in our own various ways. our inner sense of purpose (and perhaps self-righteousness). who we see ourselves to be. what is (at least as a process) consistent within us.

There are a few people on this site that literally blow me away each and every time they open up their brain and share. Here is one of them.
 

Poki

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Picture that somehow cognitive function preference was narrowed down to genetics and hormones. Next picture a biochemical bomb that instantly kills anything with a prominent Fe expression.

You know, maybe that's not scientifically feasible.

Fine! Picture a scenario where evil aliens visited the earth and somehow hated Fe people and holocaust'd them out of existence.

Ooh.. classy.

"What would a human world composed of only Fi dominants, auxiliaries, tertiaries and inferiors look like?"

Would we tear each other apart, or would we by the very nature of possessing one part of this pseudo-cosmic universal feeling / value function ... all get along so well to make the Carebears jealous?
[PS:
I love you Fe folks, this is nothing against you. I would defend you all from Xenu if I had a chance.

-Love, Xel <3 ]

Yes. It would be yin and yang without balance. Both parts seperate without the glue to hold them together.
 

the state i am in

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state I love your posts. Really, they make my brain tingle!!!

As for Ne-well NeFi. NeFi thinks everything is already connected. Fi says so-we are all one big connected blob-no arguments allowed, it is some sort of weirdly Fi-istic truth. So Ne just needs to find all the connections and map them out. Cause I know they are there! hehehehe. Ne just find stuff that Fi already knew was reality. Thus the result is a connected whole.

Hmmmm sorta like Fe in an INFJ uses Fe to connect people on the outside perhaps to reach the one answer that Ni says is the final truth? I really have no idea, I am just dancing in the wake of your Ni-isms cause they are very pretty!!

Ni isn't nearly so final truth as p types seem to think. yet, p types do generally notice right away that it's not as open to external possibilities. we've built a hierarchy that we trust, and while that hierarchy isn't ever FINISHED (ie it's never final, it's never totally singular, etc), it does have durabilities in many positions. so it is resistant to change. we have established a sense of declarative facticity in key points and those fortify the whole project, those related perspectives organize the conceptual tree structure, provide the overall shape of the model. this is different than the possibilities, subjective positions, and subjective explorations of right-brained experientially situated possibilities. new whitmanesque vistas provide episodic, pragmatic knowledge based on where you've arrived through your process, your path of discovery.

the way any process connects the introverted framework to the extroverted world is really important. the j/p split creates a lot of complexity very quickly when differentiating the way these processes can fit together.

also, i want to see how you see Fi. one giant blob? i have some mental pictures that i'd like to test but i don't have words for them yet. my Ne friends have been teasing me with possibilities. my entp friend was trying to pull this tesla coil shit on me. i admit i was starry-eyed smitten with the analogy.

There are a few people on this site that literally blow me away each and every time they open up their brain and share. Here is one of them.

thanks! :) validation and cigarettes. a good way to spend the early morning. wait--isn't that a jarmusch film?
 

Random Ness

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You get along with other Fi/Te types so well that it would be a utopia? I only understand INFJs, so a world of only FJs and TPs would still have great communication gaps to me.

Oroabs and Xellotath, it sounds like you need to read up on the benefits of Fe. I'm sorry that you've had negative experiences, but us Fe users aren't just mean. We experience compassion and contribute to the world. And Fe users experience just as much frustration in dealing with Fi users. Promise. :hug: Hey, it's not like I'm blameless, either. Currently, I'm studying the benefits of Si so I don't think of it as superfluous.
 
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