[Fe] Fe and not having a strong sense of self-identity.

[Lauren]

I'm the same about needing someone to bounce thoughts off of. I have a few people that I go to to talk things out. As you say, they in turn give me advice or thoughts from their perspective that I may not have thought of. I sift through what others tell me and see what rings true for me. I'm always hesitant to rely just on my own intution or thoughts about something because I feel that, being just one person with a limited view, that I may have missed something. I then ruminate about what they've said and after a time, come to feel what's right or a path to take. For some, I may appear to be a ship drifting with the wind, but in actuality, I'm listening and assessing.

 

[Random Ness]

However, considering how much of the other stuff in this thread I strongly relate to, you gotta wonder if I'm not really some sort of FJ type. Really, would most INTPs relate to so much of this stuff to the degree that I do?

This is the part where INTPs say yes/no/maybe so, and whether they relate wholeheartedly or if there are key differences that seperate INTPs from INFJs.

 

[mochajava]

I think I was on the receiving end of some overaccomodating Fe. It was not something I liked; I felt put on the spot. Here's what happened (she meant so well, guys): my friend was waiting for her bus and doing a Sudoku. I sat down with her to chat, since I hadn't seen her in awhile (see -- I'm justifying interrupting... that's probably some overacting Fe right there). Worried I was taking her away from her Sudoku, I joined her in doing it. It was fun. We were sitting side-by-side working on it together. She put the pen in my hand and pushed the whole paper over so that it was easiest for me to see, and she had to crane her neck to see it. I noticed this immediately and moved it back. We worked on it while we were on the bus, but she left it with me even though it was supposed to be timepass for a 1 hour train ride... she did have another...

To some of you, this may sound like overanalyzing very small things that occurred -- but I think the fact is that some of us notice these tiny, tiny cues and they mean a lot to us. For example, my heart melted last year when a woman noticed I had no lunch, no way of getting a lunch, and quietly figured out one for me. She did NOT have to do that.

What do you all think of this situation? Over-active Fe both trying to please each other? My friend is reserved...! But if you even so much as offer to do something kind for her, she'll get REALLY happy.

 

[Skyward]

I understand how to have the feeling to help other people's needs before mine or thinking having my own needs as 'selfish.' Thing is, I don't use Fe that way. For me, Fe is the tool to be friends with a lot of people, or to get people that are being a bother to go away without making an enemy. My own needs and other people's needs are at a similar level, but I am independant and want to fix the problem myself. When I find out that I cannot at all fix it myself, then I have no choice but to go to another person for help. I'm not very good at it.

I try to never me a true enemy to anyone, responding to how they act rather than who they are. There are doorslams to those who attack me or those close to me personally. I befriend the outcasts- most of them are never friends outside of school. I'm not THAT trusting.

My center is whenever I can escape reality or lean on my faith. Videogames, books, nature, and prayer help me feel balanced. Reality is always the thing that forces me to do things I don't eant to do or have the motivation to do. I've always been the stubborn independent type, even as a toddler according to my parents. As I grow out of home, it is hard to get used to all the errands and work a person has to do just to live. The worst part is a separation from many of the things I use to keep straight.

 

[Random Ness]

What do you all think of this situation? Over-active Fe both trying to please each other? My friend is reserved...! But if you even so much as offer to do something kind for her, she'll get REALLY happy.

Sounds like over-active Fe. It can be awkward between the two Fe-users. But to an observer, like me reading it, it sounds hilarious. You take it...no you...no you...NO YOU

 

[Sizzling Berry]

Can I ask you something Fe users? Why would you try to connect to somebody you don't like on a deep or hidden level? Do you choose to connect? Or is there something in you that compels you to?

 

[mochajava]

Sounds like over-active Fe. It can be awkward between the two Fe-users. But to an observer, like me reading it, it sounds hilarious. You take it...no you...no you...NO YOU

Okay - I need to say something here. Have you ever seen two Asians (like Asia-born Asians) interacting with each other? You will see this ALL THE TIME. "You first, no you first. No really, you first." We even have a saying in my language "Say 'you first' too many times and the bus is gonna leave!". I wonder if cultural conditioning or being female (both of us in this situation were Asian and female, come to think of it... hm, freaky) contribute to this. In addition to being NF which we both probably are... I mean, who else does low-paying, helping professions?

Okay - all of these factors sound like I am doomed to hyper-active Fe forever Oh well. If EVERYONE had hyper-active Fe and was confident in themselves enough to balance their Fe with their needs, everyone in the world would be taken care of.

At the end of the day, I like who I am and that I notice/care (even if it's uncool to care according to much of pop-culture). I will change in order to take better care of myself (that's a more effective way to take care of others anyway), learn to create better boundaries and be more honest about crap coming my way, but that's about it. The Fe will stay intact.

 

[Random Ness]

Why would you try to connect to somebody you don't like on a deep or hidden level?

Because even if I don't approve of them, I still acknowledge they are a human being with feelings and wish that they would become better/more mature/nicer/whatever caused me to dislike them. Also, if I don't like them but want to connect, then I probably want to understand them better so that I might learn to tolerate them.

Do you choose to connect?

If the other person starts talking about deeper stuff, then I do. If the other person only talks about shallow stuff, then I do. Connection happens if the other person initiates it.

 

[Random Ness]

Okay - all of these factors sound like I am doomed to hyper-active Fe forever

No you're not! Maybe under times of high stress. But you can achieve balance!

At will change in order to take better care of myself (that's a more effective way to take care of others anyway), learn to create better boundaries and be more honest about crap coming my way.

 

[Salomé]

Really, would most INTPs relate to so much of this stuff to the degree that I do?

I think I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that most won't even be interested in this thread.

If the others around me aren't enjoying themselves, I'm not going to enjoy myself much either. If I invite others along to do something with me, I want to make sure that they are receptive to it and they will likely enjoy it. If I sense that I have to drag them into it, I'd rather just go by myself and not at all. Because if I have to drag someone into it, then I'll constantly be concerned about their reactions and feelings which prevents me from truly enjoying the activity.

All but the narcissistic feel this way.

I also agree with Fidelia when she says that she may even question her own taste and judgement in liking it. I often feel that way. It doesn't even have to be with someone close, although if someone is closer to me, it affects me more strongly because I'm likely to respect their opinions more. I'll feel that way for example when just discussing movies, for example with acquaintances. I mention some movie I saw that was totally awesome and someone else trashes it. I then wonder if my opinion of the movie was really well justified. Especially if the majority hold the opposite opinion, I may conclude that I must have lousy taste and others are perceiving things in the movie I'm not and I must be stupid for not seeing the bad acting or holes in the plotline or whatever. Its why I hardly ever talk movies with anyone anymore. You never know how someone's gonna respond. I wish I could just talk about what I like more freely and not worry so much about dissenting opinions. I also wish I could hold more firmly to my opinions on some things and not be so amenable to outside influence.

Cannot relate. And I do not think this is INTP-typical. One of our distinguishing features is how little we are influenced by the opinions of others. Usually the endorsement of others is a reason for me to avoid something - I genuinely dislike the times when my tastes and those of the general public are in agreement - mostly because I think the tastes of the general public are pretty crass and vulgar, and I don't like to think that about myself (whether it's true or not).

I have a very hard time convincing someone to do something they are initially lukewarm about it.

I have little interest in convincing anyone to do anything. I see that as respecting their autonomy. Where I differ is that I'm also immensely stubborn and resistant to the persuasive attempts of others - the harder someone tries, the more likely they are to fail completely - which again, is pretty characteristic of INTPs, I'd have said. We are frustratingly inpenetrable.

Harmony is very important to me and I am made more uneasy by disharmony than most people I know.

I don't care about harmony other than in v. close relationships.

I'm also very sensitive about whether or not I'm being perceived as unwanted company and I'm very careful not to impose on others too much.

Yes. In my case, part of that is respecting the other person's space, and part is about a hatred of obligation.

 

[Such Irony]

I think I can say with a fairly high degree of confidence that most won't even be interested in this thread.
All but the narcissistic feel this way.

Cannot relate. And I do not think this is INTP-typical. One of our distinguishing features is how little we are influenced by the opinions of others. Usually the endorsement of others is a reason for me to avoid something - I genuinely dislike the times when my tastes and those of the general public are in agreement - mostly because I think the tastes of the general public are pretty crass and vulgar, and I don't like to think that about myself (whether it's true or not).

I have little interest in convincing anyone to do anything. I see that as respecting their autonomy. Where I differ is that I'm also immensely stubborn and resistant to the persuasive attempts of others - the harder someone tries, the more likely they are to fail completely - which again, is pretty characteristic of INTPs, I'd have said. We are frustratingly inpenetrable.

I don't care about harmony other than in v. close relationships.

Yes. In my case, part of that is respecting the other person's space, and part is about a hatred of obligation.

Are you an INTP by any chance? I did not see a type specified in your profile.

I am thinking that maybe I really am an Fe user. By Fe user I mean dominant or auxiliary Fe.

The thing is I don't relate much to the FJ type profiles except for ISFJ. I relate to quite a bit of the ISFJ profile but seriously doubt I am one. For one thing, I feel like my Ne is strong. Also, I am less traditionally minded than typical ISFJs. There are other things too that I won't get into right now. That's for a whole new thread.

I

 

[Salomé]

Are you an INTP by any chance? I did not see a type specified in your profile.

I am thinking that maybe I really am an Fe user. By Fe user I mean dominant or auxiliary Fe.

The thing is I don't relate much to the FJ type profiles except for ISFJ. I relate to quite a bit of the ISFJ profile but seriously doubt I am one. For one thing, I feel like my Ne is strong. Also, I am less traditionally minded than typical ISFJs. There are other things too that I won't get into right now. That's for a whole new thread.

I test as INTP, yes.

I think preoccupation with type is a trap. MBTI is an interesting way of collecting traits and theorizing about personality constructs, but I've come to accept that the search for a type that fits one perfectly is a deeply flawed exercise.

When I look at this thread I see a lot of people talking about issues which in psychology circles would be linked with low self-esteem and other disorders, and justifying it as an expression of "Fe". A function that actually has no meaning other than labeling a collection of behaviours. Affirming each other because "oooh, I'm like that too!" rather than considering whether certain behaviours are unhealthy and represent obstacles to growth.

Not having a solid sense of your own identity and being overly-accommodating to others is not a feature of a mature, healthy personality, however one wants to label it.

Just my 2c.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

When I look at this thread I see a lot of people talking about issues which in psychology circles would be linked with low self-esteem and other disorders, and justifying it as an expression of "Fe". A function that actually has no meaning other than labeling a collection of behaviours. Affirming each other because "oooh, I'm like that too!" rather than considering whether certain behaviours are unhealthy and represent obstacles to growth.

Not having a solid sense of your own identity and being overly-accommodating to others is not a feature of a mature, healthy personality, however one wants to label it.

That’s^ true, it’s not particularly healthy- but they are too common tendencies amongst the Fe’ers I know. I’m not willing to go back and reread the thread, but I don’t remember most of the posts necessarily ‘justifying’ these behaviors/tendencies as expressions of Fe- it seems to me like most of us are pretty solidly of the opinion that they’re inconvenient and problematic.

 

[Salomé]

That’s^ true, it’s not particularly healthy- but they are too common tendencies amongst the Fe’ers I know. I’m not willing to go back and reread the thread, but I don’t remember most of the posts necessarily ‘justifying’ these behaviors/tendencies as expressions of Fe- it seems to me like most of us are pretty solidly of the opinion that they’re inconvenient and problematic.

My criticism is not of this thread and its posters but of the whole MBTI approach: Does it sanction certain unhealthy behaviours as normal based on an assumption that function order is innate (and the accompanying assumption that everything that is natural is ok)? Despite there being no evidence that functions even exist... etc, etc, etc.

 

[sculpting]

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/personal.html

This page has a nice summary^^ but a snip:

Recognize Your Weaknesses Without Hiding Behind Them

While improving our self-knowledge and realizing our true goals can be very liberating, we should not discard the rules of the society in which we live. We must recognize that other people's value systems are no less important than our own. And we must recognize and accept that we live in a society in which certain personality types and behaviors are more suited towards particular tasks. This is the second key that will open the door towards personal growth.
​

For example, there are situations in which it is more appropriate and effective to show compassion and caring (Feeling), rather than impersonal logic (Thinking). Likewise, there are situations that call for using impersonal logic to make a decision, in which the more subjective viewpoint of the Feeling function is inappropriate and ineffective. Persons with a preference for Feeling will have a natural advantage over Thinkers in situations that require compassion and awareness of other's emotions. Conversely, persons with a preference for Thinking will have a natural advantage over Feelers in situations that require the ability to make a decision based on impersonal data.

As we learn about our personality type and the types of others, we are empowered with an understanding of why people react differently in different situations. When put into the context of Psychological Type, we can better accept and understand people's behaviors that are different from ours. These insights are extremely useful and powerful to us as individuals. However, if we are concerned with growing as individuals, we must take care not to use personality type as an excuse for our inappropriate behavior. While it's powerful and useful to notice that another person's inappropriate behavior may be due to their personality type, we cannot use the same reasoning on ourselves. We should recognize that our personality type has weaknesses, but we must use that knowledge to conquer those weaknesses rather than to excuse poor behavior. We cannot be responsible for other people's behavior, but we can control our own. "​

The value of understanding type and functions-is that each type has a different set of weaknesses and requires a different set of tools to address those weaknesses. People are not the same, problems are not the same, solutions are not the same.

The notion that one problem=one solution for everyone strikes me as Fe being presumptuous and projective and unwilling to note that half of the world is not motivated or seeing the world through the lens of Fe....

 

[IZthe411]

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/personal.html

This page has a nice summary^^ but a snip:

Recognize Your Weaknesses Without Hiding Behind Them

While improving our self-knowledge and realizing our true goals can be very liberating, we should not discard the rules of the society in which we live. We must recognize that other people's value systems are no less important than our own. And we must recognize and accept that we live in a society in which certain personality types and behaviors are more suited towards particular tasks. This is the second key that will open the door towards personal growth.
​

For example, there are situations in which it is more appropriate and effective to show compassion and caring (Feeling), rather than impersonal logic (Thinking). Likewise, there are situations that call for using impersonal logic to make a decision, in which the more subjective viewpoint of the Feeling function is inappropriate and ineffective. Persons with a preference for Feeling will have a natural advantage over Thinkers in situations that require compassion and awareness of other's emotions. Conversely, persons with a preference for Thinking will have a natural advantage over Feelers in situations that require the ability to make a decision based on impersonal data.

As we learn about our personality type and the types of others, we are empowered with an understanding of why people react differently in different situations. When put into the context of Psychological Type, we can better accept and understand people's behaviors that are different from ours. These insights are extremely useful and powerful to us as individuals. However, if we are concerned with growing as individuals, we must take care not to use personality type as an excuse for our inappropriate behavior. While it's powerful and useful to notice that another person's inappropriate behavior may be due to their personality type, we cannot use the same reasoning on ourselves. We should recognize that our personality type has weaknesses, but we must use that knowledge to conquer those weaknesses rather than to excuse poor behavior. We cannot be responsible for other people's behavior, but we can control our own. "​

The value of understanding type and functions-is that each type has a different set of weaknesses and requires a different set of tools to address those weaknesses. People are not the same, problems are not the same, solutions are not the same.

The notion that one problem=one solution for everyone strikes me as Fe being presumptuous and projective and unwilling to note that half of the world is not motivated or seeing the world through the lens of Fe....

Great point to make here.

It takes 2, point blank, and a middle ground has to be made. An educated Fe user is empowered to not let those feelings take control of them.

My Fe using friend likes to shame me and call me cold hearted because my outlook on interpersonal matters isn't a one size fits all approach like his.

 

[mochajava]

Salome When I look at this thread I see a lot of people talking about issues which in psychology circles would be linked with low self-esteem and other disorders, and justifying it as an expression of "Fe". A function that actually has no meaning other than labeling a collection of behaviours. Affirming each other because "oooh, I'm like that too!" rather than considering whether certain behaviours are unhealthy and represent obstacles to growth.

Not having a solid sense of your own identity and being overly-accommodating to others is not a feature of a mature, healthy personality, however one wants to label it.

Just my 2c.

I agree with you, even though I'm definitely one of the people who is doing exactly what you say. All of this is reasonable. I think that realizing you're not alone, aren't a total freak of nature is the first step to realizing that something is an unhelpful tendency and changing it. It's really hard to look at yourself and see the effects of your behaviors sometimes.

Your follow-up question is good:

My criticism is not of this thread and its posters but of the whole MBTI approach: Does it sanction certain unhealthy behaviours as normal based on an assumption that function order is innate (and the accompanying assumption that everything that is natural is ok)? Despite there being no evidence that functions even exist... etc, etc, etc.

Z Buck McFate: it seems to me like most of us are pretty solidly of the opinion that they’re inconvenient and problematic.

Agreed.

 

[Saslou]

Wow .. I relate every much to the OP. Especially about pleasing the other person then resenting.

Its not that i want to lose my identity, but i find myself becoming immersed with those i am close to. I don't see it as a sense of duty but simply that i care for my partners needs .. I do it out of respect and love.

*subscribed*

 

[Vasilisa]

my reaction to some of the statements

I Relate to the Following:​

can cause the non-Fe-user to always get their needs met, while the Fe-user never gets their needs met

cautious about not being unwanted, yet we have a hard time telling others that they are unwanted.

Most people who only know me superficially are not going to see me risking a lot of unproductive conflict with them, so the people who get more facets of who I am displayed to them are those who have shown respect, reciprocation and receptivity to me, they are someone who I cannot work around without dealing with our differences, or they are in my very innermost circle. So I don't think it's all a matter of trying to please because I don't know who I am

My tendancy is also to need an invitation of some sort that says I am welcome to interact with a person.

I show parts of myself that I can sense the other person can connect with; and I don't typically bother to show parts of myself that other won't connect with. So none of what I am saying is a "lie," I'm expressing different facets of me, but it is definitely a selected group of facets.

Sometimes we need to realize that some kinds of people will not get our subtleties (we feel we are being extremely clear, when we are in fact not!). Sometimes when people act rudely, we need to make them understand that they are crossing a line.

In specific 'what do we do?' scenarios, I work with different questions. "What are the options?" Once we define our options- "Which are you opposed to?" I state what I am opposed to after that and we see if there is an agreement or compromise to be made.

I've had these experiences of adjusting myself so the parts that show are the ones I think most likely to be harmonious or appreciated. I think of it as attuning myself to the other person. I do it because I really like it. I like to be attuned and I feel I'm gifted at attuning. That is very much a defining characteristic of mine, that I like harmony and to get along without friction. I am also always interested to see what my instrument (my self) feels like, tuned to different people, so it's fun for me, too.

I also don't really care what the activity is. If I like a person, I'm about the person, and what we're doing is incidental. Even if I think I won't like something, if the other person really likes it a lot, I am totally up for them to show me how to like it, so I'll say I don't imagine myself liking that, but why don't you show me how, and that seems to work.

I will speak up when it comes to making decisions--I feel like I'm willing to compromise a lot, but I'm not willing to play the, "I don't know, what do YOU want to do" game when I'm starving. Have an opinion, or I'll decide. I also hate it when I feel like I'm the only one doing the flexing. It's like an unspoken code--I accommodate you, and you accommodate me.

I Do Not Relate to the Following:​

Always doing what the other person wants.

"What do you want to do?" "What do YOU want to do?" "I don't care what we do. It's up to you." "No really, it's up to YOU." Either we randomly switch between activities, not really knowing what we ourselves want to do. Or, one of us actually does have an opinion and says: "Fuck it. I want this." without acknowledging what the other person wants at all.

what a Fe user thinks and does is all based on other people

I sometimes can take something as truth if the other person sounds certain of it, when in fact it is not..... If they were trustworthy and kind in the past, it takes a long time to recognize immature or selfish behavior for what it is and draw appropriate lines to protect ourselves. It's easy for us to really believe the other person is right about us if they are someone we love.

the fact that they hate it spoils my own enjoyment of it and if the person is close to me, may even make me question my own taste or judgment in liking it.

 

[untypeable]

Ahh, the glorious wonders of Fe!

FJs want to be their own person. But let's face it, you have to start from somewhere. So here is how I think young and immature Fe puts too much emphasis on other people (especially secondary Fe).

Always doing what the other person wants. We figure out what the other person wants first. Then, we usually go along with it, assuming the other person would be most happy doing what they said they want to do.

Among two Fe-users, this can cause nothing to get done. Take me and my INFJ friend. When we are deciding what to do, it goes like this: "What do you want to do?" "What do YOU want to do?" "I don't care what we do. It's up to you." "No really, it's up to YOU." Either we randomly switch between activities, not really knowing what we ourselves want to do. Or, one of us actually does have an opinion and says: "Fuck it. I want this." without acknowledging what the other person wants at all. And, both of us being people pleasers, the other person submissively goes along with it.

Among a Fe-user and non-Fe-user, this can cause the non-Fe-user to always get their needs met, while the Fe-user never gets their needs met. So, the we become resentful. Fed up, eventually we outwardly express our anger to you. Then you wonder why we are so pissy, because you know that if we had just said what we wanted, we wouldn't get resentful.

Not reacting until someone else reacts, then matching their reaction. We don't know how to act around you or what to think about you until you react first. That way, we can be most pleasing to you. Or, if you react negatively, then we assume it would be most logical to you if we were negative back. Until you react to us, this can make you think we're indifferent and uncaring about you. It also prevents you from knowing what we truly think of you. If we can seperate ourselves from you enough to even have our own opinion about you.

Communicating with you based on what we think you want to hear. We try to match your communication style so that you can think we're just like you and you'll like us. As said earlier, if you communicate to us first, then we can easily mirror how you communicate. If the circumstances change between us, and we haven't communicated since then, we freak out. Since we have no example or guide, us NFJs can get some pretty weird theories from our Ni of how we think you'll react. Then, every time you react, we automatically adjust our communication style again to match your own. To you, this switching in tone and wording can make us seem oddly scattered, rapidly bipolar, or passively opinionless. It makes it difficult for you to know what we really think, and as said earlier, if we can seperate ourselves from you enough to even have our own communication style.

In conclusion, what a Fe user thinks and does is all based on other people, and changes in a Fe user's behavior and thoughts is based on other people's reactions, making it difficult for an immature Fe user to have their own opinions and identity.

So, what do you think? Relate? Don't relate? Has to do with Fe? Doesn't have to do with Fe? Any differences between the four FJ types about this? Anything else to add?

Ahhh...Feness.

Me: What do you want to do?
My friend: I don't know, what do you want to do? (I think she didn't even know what to do.)
Me: I don't care. What do you want to do?
My friend: Fiine...get an orange colored pencil.

That's our BEAUTIFUL relationship as BEST FRIENDS!
No, I'm serious.


I'm so like that. Around my friend-that's-a-boy-but-not-a-boyfriend-because-I-can't-date-yet I'm ENFP, and he's ESFP so I won't lose my N-ness. Around my best friend (who I was having a conversation with above), I'm INFJ or INFP, and she's ENTx. Around my sister, I'll be ENFP, ENFJ, and INFJ. She's INFP. See? I have multiple personalities.

Ahh, the glorious wonders of Fe!!!!!!