[ENFJ] ENFJ - Problematic Enneagram

[Domino]

This is really a call to the State I Am In to come in here and straighten it out.


As you all know, I have a very definite borderline split between my extroverted primary function and my introverted secondary function. No matter where or how I test, my Ni and Fe are rated at nearly the same strength, with one passing the other, depending on which "mode" I'm in (thanks to Udog for pointing that out).

I know that Fe is my default mode and that I operate in it at any given moment, but I also notice that it takes absolutely nothing to bump me into Ni, or to have the two swap places a million times during the day in a rather schizophrenic dance.

As far as the enneagram goes, I test as a 2, which doesn't surprise me, as I'm constantly operating with a "help others" vibe running beneath the entire system. I think the "first do no evil" motto works well there (even though it seems to contrast starkly with my need to bring everything within my dominion - someone once told me that ENFJs are the benevolent dictators, and I had to laugh because I can't refute it). But the type 2 never felt comfortable to me.

So, I've tested as a 4 about as much as a 2. I *highly* relate to the description of fours. The artistic nature, the up-down energy.

Type 4 – Fe manifests as a sense of how things should be both for the individual as well as their environment in a rather self oriented manner, insisting on aesthetics, conventions, and their unique tastes. These ENFJs can be very elitist and feel very passionately about these things. Type 4 ENFJs tend to have a notably strong Ni that can often confuse them with INFJs or INFPs.

Mashing the two together would be my entirety. If I were unaware of the enneagram (or MBTI et al), I would chose type 4 as me while asking myself where the caring is. This has made me insane.

There has been mention of an ENFJ Ni-subtype. Anyone familiar with that?

 

[Domino]

Ni Subtype

Socionics: (I have to say, I really look down on Socionics... it always sounds like a fortune cookie)

ENFj Intuitive subtype: it is inclined to idealize the object of love, it is very touchy, we wound and it is emotional. It strongly survives its enthusiasm and it frequently dramatizes events. Even if it is confident in the reciprocity, it occurs contradictory and not predicted in its behavior. It can be in the intimate life original, passionate and sexual, or suddenly it begins to manifest haughtiness, coldness and tendency toward the inconstancy. There is much expression in the manifestation of the emotions of different nuances. It is jealous and distrustful. Because of the tendency to accumulate emotions, for it are necessary periodic emotional dischargings - quarrel and reconciliations. Commands moderately emotional, thoughtful persistent and initiative-taking partner, who knows how to quiet, to encourage, to inspire confidence in his feelings.

Meged, ARTIST:

Intuitive subtype - original creative personality, extravagant and not predicted. It is very inquisitive and talkative. It is sufficiently emotional. It is internally stressed, frequent doubts and fluctuations are experienced, because of what it is sufficiently variable in its solutions. It is quick tempered and cutting. Very artistic, is emotional, easily and freely expressed in its feelings. The mood of others is felt and it skillfully governs that. Speaks with feeling and enthusiasm. It is very ironic, critical, sometimes caustic and haughty. In a good mood it can become the center of attention in any company. It is sufficiently practical, although its confidence is not sufficient in itself. The impression of business, active and sociable. Dresses uncommonly and extravagantly, and sometimes simply modest. The motions are irregular, impulsive, but not flattened, more stopped up.

Gulenko:

He is predisposed to reflection, internal fluctuations and doubts. Thinks figuratively, is philosophically inclined. He isn’t so critical to his appearance and food he eats. Reserved, vulnerable, may be even broken, expresses himself softly-softly, he is responsible and punctual. He is a good tutor and teacher, may carry away his students. He is quiet, consecutive in statement of a material.

 

[Udog]

^I could never get beyond the surface level of socionics either.

Hmmm... didn't you say you've tested as 2w1?

The 4 disintegrates to 2 under stress. Would you say that your need to help others is exacerbated when you are under stress?

When secure, the 4 will take up the hyper-critical nature towards people like an average 1. From Enneagram Institute:

With trusted intimates, or in situations in which Fours feel sure of themselves, they may risk being more openly controlling and critical of others. Their frustration with others and feeling of disappointment in how others are behaving (especially toward them) finally erupts.

And for growth, the 4 takes on healthier aspects of the 1:

As Fours become more aware of their tendency to brood and to fantasize about their many hurts and disappointments, they also become aware of the cost to themselves of this way of being. As they relax and accept themselves more deeply, they gradually become free of their constant emotional turbulence and their need to maintain emotional crises or to indulge themselves as a consolation prize for not fulfilling their potential.

I'd buy you as a 4 for a dollar, and the above offers a possible explanation about why you tested as 2w1.

 

[Domino]

You know, I've discussed the idea of the whole 2 and 4 connection being an ascendant/descendant thing, and I can see its merits. I also noticed that a lot of ENFJs self-type as 1s. I also see the supportive anchor of a 2 in my life, the need to spare people suffering etc, but I also see that tendency in others who *aren't* 2s. My ISTP best friend used to have a HUGE "Jesus complex" and was constantly bailing people/lost animals out of trouble. His Fe was, admittedly, pretty strong, but he also was a nearly stereotypical ISTP type, operating out of his Ti/Se.

When I'm described by friends, they call me intense, caring, volatile, funny, sarcastic, sensual, impractical, artistic, moody, dark, and temperamental. This is me when I'm relaxed enough to trust someone with my full personality.

Others get nothing but my caring side. I don't like to burden others with my UP/DOWN, esp if I believe that they're already weighed down and needing help. I'll sacrifice myself to varying degrees to help others or to take care of them when I need help too but would rather help them than myself. I don't know why I do that except that I deeply empathize with suffering and pain and want it to stop.

Our ENTJ Jaguar and I seem to have a common hatred and antipathy toward rot, decay and death, like these things are intruders and are offensive to us. Life is such a beautiful and hard-won thing. Rot in all of its forms seems to be an opportunist and thief to me. Perhaps my veneration for life is what drives my need to save people/things. Perhaps its my need to connect deeply with people/things and my "mind meld" activity that drives it. Once you deeply understand the core of a human, you can't help but try to dip as many bodies out of the Styx that you can. On the other hand, I've been called the human guillotine for my kneejerk "Off with his/her head" when I detect a rat.

Ideally, I would spend all day reading or writing or working on my body exercising. I would dance by myself to loud music. I would silently plot futures. I would spend my headspace time letting my Ni run wild anywhere and everywhere. Take the time to sort out all the little scraps of things that stick to me. This is my moody, reclusive, colder, creative side. I feel like a professor of antiquities on an isolated misty island.

At night, I would go out dressed to the nines and hit a party, make friends, blow smoke up someone's skirt, have a laugh -- to answer for my high emotional states and my need to make meaningful connections. Sx/So. This is my fiery, daring, overpowering, consumptive side. I feel like Jude Law in a tuxedo.

Both of these are in control of my brain at ANY given second, and I find it confusing, not just for others but for me.

The Enneacards test's version of a 4 (which I tested as) felt VERY good to me. Sis tested as a 7 which also felt good to me. It described her so much better. But we also both test as 2s on "traditional" enneagram tests.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

2s are artistical also. The 4 is the Dramatic Artist of Enneagram, the 2 is the Histrion. Tons of artist like Stevie Wonder, Barry White, Camille Corot or Luciano Pavarotti are 2s, for example.

4s and 2s are tough very differents. 4s use the Heart center to think "I feel bad", 2 use it to think "I don't feel anything".That means 2s know easily what peoples need and how to act to be liked, and do it, but don't recognise their own need even if they unconciously "give to get". 4s always feel that they lack something to be liked, that they don't understand peoples and that peoples don't understand them. 2s are compliant and seek for affinities and similarities, 4s are withdrawing and want to mark their difference. Both tend to be dramatic, possesive, jealous and relationships oriented.

Some videos:

[youtube=YqQ6YPjKBUs]Type 2[/youtube]
[youtube=foA0EAg3bJw]Type 2[/youtube]

[youtube=t3_ITfz-aao]Type 4[/youtube]

 

[Domino]

LOL @ the first video!! Barry White!! Good times...

After watching those, I relate very very much to type 4, and much much less to 2. My primary mode is NOT to fill others up. It's to fill others up with the beneficial products of my creative process. I'm more removed from the nurturing of 2 by the degree of what filters through my head first.

I really do think I'm a 4. Thanks for that, Speed. That was very helpful.

This is also interesting through my twin filter. Being an identical twin, in a weird way, makes me feel special and deeply connected to one person that I've been with since the beginning of our very lives. But I've also struggled HARD with setting myself apart. Deliniating who I am in relation to everything else, including my sister, which has hurt her in the past because it felt like me pulling away from her or separating myself, has been an almost primal need in me. I have to have my "turf" so to speak. Standing separately and autonomous of all.

 

[Udog]

Do you know what your wing would be? I have a suspicion you are a 4w3.

 

[Domino]

Hmm.

http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-4.html

(Ignore the "celebrity" typing -- Gwen Stefani is NOT an ENFP, she's ESFP, get over it, people!)

Palmer's Description "The Unique Person"

Creatures of emotional extremes, enneagram type 4s are awash in a stormy sea of emotions. They are all about relationships and seem to be always beginning, ending, or analyzing relationships. They feel frustrated in their search for connection to others. As children, they didn’t feel like the parents really understood them or were there for them emotionally. Whether or not this was really true is beside the point. They feel like they were born into the wrong family and continue to seek out people who will nurture them, mirror them, and rescue them from their suffering.

The connection being, for me, one that will fuse and remain, and not just be a flash in the pan that I must relinquish.

Ocean-Moonshine.net's Description

People of Enneatype Four construct their identities around their perception of themselves as being somehow unique and fundamentally different from others. This deep felt sense of being “different from” or “other than” pervades the Four’s sense of self, and functions as the basis for the Four’s attempt to create a persona that properly reflects who they feel they really are. Fours are not content (or even able) to live out the role assigned them by their societies or their families; they self-consciously search for an expression they feel will be truly authentic. Of all the types, Fours are the most acutely aware that the persona is a construct – something which has been created and can thus be re-created. This is indeed the fundamental respect in which Fours are artists; they may or may not be artists in the conventional sense of the term, but all Fours have a sense that their identities are, in some respect, their own creation.

And yet I seek out comradery. My sister has remarked on how people respond to me as a persona, and even add names to me that they call me instead of my given name. Even when people get to know me, they may still persist in calling me by the nickname.

I have a strong sense of duty, and crushed myself for years bearing huge loads for my family until it broke me.

Withdrawn Triad

Palmer at Enneagram-Spirituality.com (Derived from)

The 4 prefers to focus on what makes him who he is (a.k.a. "The Feeling Center"), to be out of touch with his actual physical body, or instinctual motivation for doing things (a.k.a. "The Instinctual-Motivation Center). He tends to underuse his physical body and avoids acting meaningfully in the world. He uses his mental and cognitive functions (a.k.a. "The Thinking Center") in the form of imagination to ramp up the intensity of his feelings and sensation. He withdraws to protect his feelings and sensations and to live in his imaginary world.

Yes to all of this. I don't know where I'd be without having grown up with my ENFP sister and my extroverted girlfriends. I might never have fully grasped my ENFJness if not for them. I would have remained deeply withdrawn.

4w3 - Seeking Identity and Image

LifeExplore

Fours with a 3 wing can sometimes seem like Sevens. May be outgoing, have a sense of humor and style. Prize being both creative and effective in the world. Both intuitive and ambitious; may have good imaginations, often talented. Some are colorful, fancy dressers, make a distinct impression. Self-knowledge combines well with social and organizational skills. When more entranced, often have a public/private split. Could conceal feelings in public then go home to loneliness. Or they could enjoy their work and be dissatisfied in love. Tendency towards melodrama and flamboyance; true feelings can often be hidden. Competitive, sneaky, aware of how they look. Some have bad taste. May be fickle in love, drawn to romantic images that they have projected onto others. Could have a dull spouse, then fantasize about glamorous strangers. Achievements can be tainted by jealousy, revenge, or a desire to prove the crowd wrong.

Shared with 4w5 - "Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death." Yes, the very death I regard as the enemy in my upright position.

If 4w3's mirror 7s, this may be what I have in similarity with my 7 twin sister. I have become less directionlessly volatile as I've gotten older.

And since State suspects I'm a sx/so (I very much trust his evaluations),...

Udit Patel "Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition")"

Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives.

They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others. Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting. Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners.

Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.

My high expectations are there and I know it. And yet if my romantic interest were to show imperfection or weakness in some area, I would feel nothing but compassion for them and a strong desire to help them back into their place of awesomeness. That has many implications of course. I feel no sense of competition with my romantic interests, I admire them for what they do well, and the only competition that comes in is friendly pursuit of a mutual prize.

I didn't relate to the LifeExplore explanation of this variant.


Decaying Four:

Fours attempt to defend their hurt feelings (and gain attention) by withdrawing from people and withholding their own affection and attention. They may recognize on some level, however, that their emotional storminess and withdrawals are driving away the people who are most supportive of them. Then Fours go out of their way to reestablish their connections and reassure themselves that their relationship is still on solid ground. But because they are reacting out of stress, Fours may overcompensate by trying to win others over, by doing favors, or, more darkly, by manipulation and creating dependencies, all in the manner of average-to-unhealthy Twos. To do this, they keep talking about the state of the relationship with the other person and try to make themselves more needed. Favors, help, and reminding others of their support are part of the picture. Troubled Fours also become more possessive of loved ones, not wanting to let them out of their sight for long, like lower-functioning Twos.

I've been forced into survival mode for most of my life. No doubt I'm guilty of a good deal of this. And then I become plagued by guilt and shame for having to "use" people to keep myself afloat and my family alive because I truly care about people and their feelings. In desperate times, connections have saved my bacon more times than I care to count.

Decaying Four:

Unhealthy loop controlled by Basic Fear: Fear of being defective -> indulge in fantasy -> understand themselves -> Fear of being defective. In the unhealthy state, the basic fear of being defective can cause Type Fours to ignore their true selves, allow their emotions to overwhelm them, and indulge in wild fantasy about themselves. This means they will understand themselves even less, and further increases Fours' basic fear. The cycle continues to build up.

That's eye-opening.

Wake-Up Call

Awareness of holding on to and intensifying feelings through the imagination—so that they can rise to a self-regenerating connection with reality and endless creativity.

Udit Patel

As Fours become more aware of their tendency to brood and to fantasize about their many hurts and disappointments, they also become aware of the cost to themselves of this way of being. As they relax and accept themselves more deeply, they gradually become free of their constant emotional turbulence and their need to maintain emotional crises or to indulge themselves as a consolation prize for not fulfilling their potential. Gradually and naturally, they become more objective, grounded, and practical, like healthy Ones. They also become more realistic and able to operate in the real world. Without imposing harsh disciplines or expectations on themselves, integrating Fours want to become involved in matters beyond themselves, such as in community work, politics, the environment, or in other worthwhile ways to engage their minds and hearts. On some level, they choose no longer to indulge themselves but to live within the constraints of reality. When they do so, they find the payoffs and the pleasures—and their creativity—are deeper and much more fulfilling.

I've taken this to heart.

 

[Domino]

4w3 is described by the Enneagram Institute as the "Aristocrat". I'm the dirtiest joke in history. *morbid laugh*

MAN, this really feels like it FITS... Yay for self-understanding!


Are there any other type-4 ENFJs here?

 

[MacGuffin]

I would've guessed 4w3 myself.

 

[Glycerine]

I think Fuzzy and Unkind are 4s. I am more like a 9.

 

[Arclight]

This is an extremely interesting thread and I relate to so much of it, it's scary .. especially those Intuitive ENFJ descriptions on Dom's second post..

Thanks For this thread

I am pretty sure I am a 6w5.. but I score 4w5 a lot of the time too.

 

[the state i am in]

The connection being, for me, one that will fuse and remain, and not just be a flash in the pan that I must relinquish.

And yet I seek out comradery. My sister has remarked on how people respond to me as a persona, and even add names to me that they call me instead of my given name. Even when people get to know me, they may still persist in calling me by the nickname.

I have a strong sense of duty, and crushed myself for years bearing huge loads for my family until it broke me.

again, i think 1w2 makes more sense. e4 is defined by feeling defective in a way that relates to the hypercritical e1 perfectionistic standards, but it's more of a sense of feeling fundamentally different and ALIEN than it is just feeling wrong, not righteous, etc.

Yes to all of this. I don't know where I'd be without having grown up with my ENFP sister and my extroverted girlfriends. I might never have fully grasped my ENFJness if not for them. I would have remained deeply withdrawn.

Shared with 4w5 - "Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death." Yes, the very death I regard as the enemy in my upright position.

If 4w3's mirror 7s, this may be what I have in similarity with my 7 twin sister. I have become less directionlessly volatile as I've gotten older.

And since State suspects I'm a sx/so (I very much trust his evaluations),...

My high expectations are there and I know it. And yet if my romantic interest were to show imperfection or weakness in some area, I would feel nothing but compassion for them and a strong desire to help them back into their place of awesomeness. That has many implications of course. I feel no sense of competition with my romantic interests, I admire them for what they do well, and the only competition that comes in is friendly pursuit of a mutual prize.

I've been forced into survival mode for most of my life. No doubt I'm guilty of a good deal of this. And then I become plagued by guilt and shame for having to "use" people to keep myself afloat and my family alive because I truly care about people and their feelings. In desperate times, connections have saved my bacon more times than I care to count.

my 4w5 infp friends are attracted to these weaknesses and imperfections because they see the beauty in them as they are with no changes. they are attracted to the most ugly because they can identify with it as it is, because they can subjectively understand it's story no matter how bad and grasp the emotional reality of the situation. they're attracted to its beauty because of its possibility to be honest in a world devoid of honesty. 4w5s love the jekyl and hyde thing, the nick cave world, hell even echo and the bunnymen. most of the e4s i know are more focused on mastering themselves than they are on theorizing and/or implementing social changes. they often think such large-scale projects are presumptious and pretending to have all the answers (and therefore disingenuous). 1w2s, on the other hand, want nothing more than to fix things. and now! they really hate and take things almost personally when something is unfair or doesn't work right.

 

[Domino]

That's it. We need a poll.

I've read over the type 1 profile. It sounded almost exactly like my ENTJ best friend. I could somewhat relate to the decay areas, but not much to the rest. I do get perfectionistic and obsessive when under extreme stress, but I turn it in on my body. I start becoming hypersensitive to every little thing that seems to be "wrong" with my body. My father does this too. It's very strange. I have to avoid mirrors during these moments.

Read the 3. Not at all like me. Glad I got that out of the way.

This has been a most interesting learning experience.

 

[Domino]

Just a note: I've just tested and read up with Jaye and she sounds either 7w6 or 7w8 (I lean toward 7w8 for her, personally). She said she related to the "social" subtype.

I'm particularly interested to figure this out in the light of us being identical twins, and how we're the same or differ.

 

[Jaguar]

Do either of these statements resonate with you, Dom?

I support and empower others.
There's a right way. Let me teach you.

 

[Domino]

Yes and no to both.

Yes, I want to create a safe environment for people to make the most of themselves. No, I am not running the Salvation Army. I am reminded (perhaps weirdly) of George Clooney in "Three Kings". Is there such a thing as mercenery altruism?

Yes, there IS a right way, and if I know it, I'll tell you. If you're a moron, no. If you're a moron wasting MY time, then yes.
How do you feel about/answer those statement, Jags?

 

[the state i am in]

That's it. We need a poll.

I've read over the type 1 profile. It sounded almost exactly like my ENTJ best friend. I could somewhat relate to the decay areas, but not much to the rest. I do get perfectionistic and obsessive when under extreme stress, but I turn it in on my body. I start becoming hypersensitive to every little thing that seems to be "wrong" with my body. My father does this too. It's very strange. I have to avoid mirrors during these moments.

Read the 3. Not at all like me. Glad I got that out of the way.

This has been a most interesting learning experience.

so not 4w3 either? you relate most to 4w5 or 2w1? e5 is conscientious because of fear far more than because of dutifulness. we see the expectations of others as preventing us from contributing rather than being an opportunity to do our best for them and impress them. e1s have a far more effective attitude toward obstacles and frame them as challenges more easily than types with e5, which are more immediately depressing because they feel pointless and unimportant to us. e2s and e5s both have trouble saying no, but e2s have way more of a do it until they become hysterical and start martyring, whereas e5s don't really do it and kind of mope or just look pissed but inside they're so irritated they can't even handle it and if they have to do it against their will they get pretty fucking worked up internally.

e4s i think are searching for cultural spaces in which they can define themselves. where they can celebrate their uniqueness above all else. it usually feels more about their journey than about the world itself. their difficulty finding a way into the world that can stabilize them and their identity. it just seems far less action-oriented, although it becomes more action-oriented when it embraces the high side of e1. the enneagram lit always talks about equanimity and acceptance, not the kind of heroism ideal that seems more 1w2 (and i don't mean this pejoratively at all). as a 5w4, i joke with my 1w2 friends about their love for practical reason and my love for theoretical reason. it's so different, more results oriented. whereas i like to focus on the theoretical possibilities at the expense of implementation much of the time.


from her posts, your sister seems like she has a high level of self-mastery/well-being, so it's difficult to tell. i've found recently that i like the 7w8 confidence and clean, easy, decision-making. it's a relief from my waffling and complicating. 7w6s are more gentle and understanding, whereas 7w8s help you do what you gotta do and don't really focus on the internal state. they de-emphasize it. sx types of course focus on desires and passions, but the 7w8s avoid dealing with the fear issues. whereas 7w6s have either got it well figured out or it still makes them feel like they're on the run from something.

the so types i've known generally rely on frames more prevalent and popular because they spend time everywhere. there's more attention to the frames of others, social norms, commonality, etc. sx types build their world out of more intensively inspiring cultural objects, meanings, ideas (frames, again). they spend more time/energy chasing and seeking. your inner world gets populated differently, there's less of a need for HUGE relevancy all the time. it's a slightly different balance. sx types crave intensity more powerfully than so types. so types like variety, but so can sx types. it's more about the intensity of the connection and its power rather than on a more diffuse, networking, alliance, etc. so tends to perpetuate information and sx tends to be going after something specific, so the kind of group leadership is different. a kind of basking in the group and being carried along vs sx having more desire to lead the group, make everything work together, feel purposeful and inspired, etc.

 

[Jaguar]

Yes and no to both.

Yes, I want to create a safe environment for people to make the most of themselves. No, I am not running the Salvation Army. I am reminded (perhaps weirdly) of George Clooney in "Three Kings". Is there such a thing as mercenery altruism?

Yes, there IS a right way, and if I know it, I'll tell you. If you're a moron, no. If you're a moron wasting MY time, then yes.
How do you feel about/answer those statement, Jags?

Don't sugarcoat it. Tell me how you really feel. Lol.
I do not think there is one "right" way. There are only "right ways" for each of us.

 

[Domino]

There are only "right ways" for each of us.

Get outta here, you Buddhist hippie tree-huggin' patchouli huffer!