[MBTI General] anti-intellectualism

[heart]

It is possible for an INF to be anti-intellectual because of upbringing due to limited exposure to higher ideas and the great works/books AND/OR and prejudices developed then due to parental anti-intellectualism either through their lack of interest or their insecurities.

Could it be possible for an INF to express their inner life strictly through the langugage of pop culture and the things they happen to run into along the way in modern daily life? By anti-intellectual, I do mean having actual distaste and/or lack of interest in so-called higher subjects.

Or do you think that the inward pull of both introversion and intuition would always bring an INF around to exploring the worlds of classical philosophy, literature, art history, classical music, poetry etc?

I am curious what people's opinions are.

I am also curious if anyone here has known someone who seemed very N in their approach to life, but also had this distaste for what is considered more intellectual type subjects and materials. ( I don't mean distaste for the pompously intellectual and posers, but distaste for the subjects themselves.)

To be clear, I am not trying to turn this thread into a debate about what is or is not intellectual or whether pop culture is good or bad. I am not passing personal judgment on that here. I am more curious what the issues I have raised here say about the person's type.

 

[Athenian200]

I believe it's more likely for INFP's to be anti-intellectual, but that it would be rare for INFJ's (granted, I may be biased). I'm pretty sure the tertiary Ti would lead INFJ's to that at some point, but the Si might keep INFP's steeped in tradition more. Although I think most of both types get into higher subjects eventually, if their environments and experiences don't prejudice them against it. And Fi isn't as malleable, because once a (potentially bad) value gets stuck in there, it can't be changed by normal means (if at all).

Don't get me wrong, of course. I like INFP's because they have a greater insight into the emotion itself, because they don't need to envision and apply a pattern to see it, and they generally have a certain depth...

 

[cafe]

It seems possible. MBTI type has some correlation with IQ, but not in a way that would prevent some INFs from having difficulty with more intellectual subject matter and difficulty with the subject matter can be discouraging. Then, like you mentioned, there is the matter of exposure.

I'm don't engage in many intellectual pursuits myself, for that matter.

 

[INTJMom]

...
Or do you think that the inward pull of both introversion and intuition would always bring an INF around to exploring the worlds of classical philosophy, literature, art history, classical music, poetry etc?
...

This is supposed to be the stereotype, right?

I don't think any of the stereotypes apply to everyone. Why are you asking?

 

[heart]

It seems possible. MBTI type has some correlation with IQ, but not in a way that would prevent some INFs from having difficulty with more intellectual subject matter and difficulty with the subject matter can be discouraging. Then, like you mentioned, there is the matter of exposure.

I'm don't engage in many intellectual pursuits myself, for that matter.

I am not meaning so much lack of ability to understand as unwillingness to explore either due to non-interest or extreme negative prejudice. Maybe even violent rejection of such topics at times.

This is supposed to be the stereotype, right?

Yes, that is why I thought it would make a good discussion topic.

 

[INTJMom]

INTJs are supposed to be so intellectual, too but I can't stand anything overly complicated.

 

[heart]

INTJs are supposed to be so intellectual, too but I can't stand anything overly complicated.

You apparently are not totally opposed higher works of literature, however.

To clear, however, I am not meaning that they have to be masters of what they pursue, just the desire to pursue.

 

[cafe]

It's hard to imagine INFs rejecting any subject out of hand or of not finding something of interest in at least a few of the areas you mentioned at least to dabble.

 

[Carebear]

I believe it's more likely for INFP's to be anti-intellectual, but that it would be rare for INFJ's (granted, I may be biased). I'm pretty sure the tertiary Ti would lead INFJ's to that at some point, but the Si might keep INFP's steeped in tradition more. Although I think most of both types get into higher subjects eventually, if their environments and experiences don't prejudice them against it. And Fi isn't as malleable, because once a (potentially bad) value gets stuck in there, it can't be changed by normal means (if at all).

Don't get me wrong, of course. I like INFP's because they have a greater insight into the emotion itself, because they don't need to envision and apply a pattern to see it, and they generally have a certain depth...

Tertiary functions tend to score pretty low on function tests for the different types, so I don't buy your argument for Ti and Si having any major role in this. Fi could hinder an INFP, but so could Fe for an INFJ if they lived in an anti-intellectual culture. If anything I'd say having Ni as primary would be the explanation if INFJs were less likely to become anti-intellectual than INFPs (with Ne only as secondary). I see that both INFPs and INFJs can become anti-intellectual, but I'd think it a very rare occurrence, something that'd have great chances of changing as the person matured, and I can't picture any of them as rabid anti-intellectuals.

 

[substitute]

I believe it's more likely for INFP's to be anti-intellectual, but that it would be rare for INFJ's (granted, I may be biased). I'm pretty sure the tertiary Ti would lead INFJ's to that at some point, but the Si might keep INFP's steeped in tradition more.

I'm not sure whether I got this right, but you seem to be setting tradition and intellectualism against each other, which I'm not sure is logical... for example, the Jesuits have a long tradition of intellectualism, as do Benedictines, and both are rooted firmly in history.

Tradition itself doesn't oppose intellectualism, but some traditions do.

----

NT's are supposed to be intellectual, but I haven't read a single book in about a year. Really.

I'm also not at all comfortable or happy in the world of academia. In fact, I f***ing hate it. I'm all for intellectual pursuits, but I think the way it's pushed in colleges and stuff, well, it doesn't really do much for me. Call it arrogance if you like, but I've better things to do with my time than answer arbitrary questions just to prove to some asshole that I read a book - or reading books I'm not interested in because someone told me to. Lots of people can't summon much enthusiasm for doing things against their natural inclinations, and I think reading dry, boring stuff and writing dry, pointless essays can be just as unappealing to any type... except perhaps those who have so little else on which to base their self-esteem and so much free time (no social life perhaps) as to actually gobble the stuff up. I feel quite confident and able to learn any subject without partaking in all that stuff.

Tradition doesn't equal anti-intellectual, and intellectual doesn't equal academic. Not necessarily.

Also, with regard to Fe or Fi disinclining a person to 'go against their culture', it's been shown that intellectualism can be, and has been, harnessed to support, strengthen, justify and explain just about any culture from Nazism to Communism, from orthodoxy to anarchy. Which incidentally, might just be why some people are suspicious of it, regardless of their type...

 

[INTJMom]

You apparently are not totally opposed higher works of literature, however.

Aren't I? I'm sorry hon, I don't understand what you mean.

To be clear, however, I am not meaning that they have to be masters of what they pursue, just the desire to pursue.

I understood that you meant that. I am an INTJ/INFJ mixture, and I have no interest in the classical subjects you mentioned. I took an interest in classical music a few years ago, but only because I felt guilted into it. I was afraid people would judge me and think me uncultured. For the record, I hated the Classical music, especially symphonies, but I loved the music of the Romance period and the Baroque period. (I hate jazz music too - how very un-INTJ of me!)

Maybe I'm not INFJ enough to be drawn to the Classical Arts and Thinkers.

But your question about pop culture strikes a chord with me because I chose pop music as my medium of expression. I was an avid pop music fan and I wrote and sang pop music, as well.

 

[heart]

Aren't I? I'm sorry hon, I don't understand what you mean.

You like Jane Austen.

but I loved the music of the Romance period and the Baroque period

In my opinion the Baroque period is the best. I like the structure of it.

 

[Kiddo]

Intellectualism isn't always a good thing. Reason is only as good as the knowledge it is based upon. A certain amount of faith outside of the intellectual is wise. I suppose that makes me anti-intellectual. But I don't think it came from an external source, just a mistrust in "intellectual" explanations for things that just didn't "feel" right.

 

[INTJMom]

You like Jane Austen.



In my opinion the Baroque period is the best. I like the structure of it.

Ah! Does Jane Austen count??!! Cool!!

 

[heart]

But your question about pop culture strikes a chord with me because I chose pop music as my medium of expression. I was an avid pop music fan and I wrote and sang pop music, as well.

Sorry, I tried to be careful and make it clear I am not passing judgment on whether or not pop culture is a valid or worthy topic. I like much pop music myself, especially the singer songwriter period and the new wave period of the 80s so I am the last person to try and make the case it is a valid medium of expression.

I am merely wondering about the stereotype that NF will most often gravitate towards what has held the stereotype of being "intellectual" and if it is possible for an NF to be prejudiced or uninterested in things like classical literaure, philosophy etc.

Ah! Does Jane Austen count??!! Cool!!

Well, she gets my vote, for what it is worth.

I would for the purposes of this discussion take the "Harry Potter" books as literature, but something like "House" as pop culture.

 

[disregard]

Re OP:

An individual can be intellectual without having lofty aspirations and achievements or obscure talents and interests. If you apply your intellect to your introspections and insights.. or your "inner world", then you most certainly are NOT an anti-intellectual. INFs have an incredible grasp on their feelings and intuitions.. and that is of intellectual merit IMO.

 

[heart]

Re OP:

An individual can be intellectual without having lofty aspirations and achievements or obscure talents and interests. If you apply your intellect to your introspections and insights.. or your "inner world", then you most certainly are NOT an anti-intellectual. INFs have an incredible grasp on their feelings and intuitions.. and that is of intellectual merit IMO.

Thank you for your take here. BTW, I agree with what you say here 100 percent myself.

 

[Gabe]

I believe it's more likely for INFP's to be anti-intellectual, but that it would be rare for INFJ's (granted, I may be biased). I'm pretty sure the tertiary Ti would lead INFJ's to that at some point, but the Si might keep INFP's steeped in tradition more. Although I think most of both types get into higher subjects eventually, if their environments and experiences don't prejudice them against it. And Fi isn't as malleable, because once a (potentially bad) value gets stuck in there, it can't be changed by normal means (if at all).

Don't get me wrong, of course. I like INFP's because they have a greater insight into the emotion itself, because they don't need to envision and apply a pattern to see it, and they generally have a certain depth...

hmm. probably not.

"Some INFPs enjoy a good debate. They actually enjoy getting in there and "rearranging people's thinking."

Are you aware that's extraverted Thinking at work?

Extraverted Thinking is about using logic, sequencing, and organizing to meet the needs of the external world (person?). It is about segmenting, checking for consequences, following guidelines (the guidelines of proper debate technique?), and deciding whether something is working or not. So it is common to meet INFPs who enjoy hashing out lively differences of opinion. Some of them did this all through their school years. Many of them were members of the debate squad in high school or college!

For me, there's nothing like a lively debate to drive me up the wall. I admire people who can do it successfully, because I just want to duck and run. It is rare for me to have any faith whatsoever that I can win a fair argument -- it's easier to quit the field.

You may be wondering how can it be that INFPs would display so much extraverted Thinking.... especially when it's their inferior function.

Remember, I subscribe to Dr. Beebe's model, and he explains that "inferior" does not mean "lesser than" -- as in poor/inferior quality. According to Beebe, the favorite function of all is "superior," and the fourth one is labeled "inferior" in terms of its position in the personality.

Beebe's other word for this process is "aspirational." In his model, it is the function that tries to be favorite function. It tries really hard to convince us that it deserves to be number one. Thus, even though it may not be the process we are most naturally graceful at using, it is the function that repeatedly tries to convince us that it is the function that deserves a shot. Who knows? Maybe this time it will prevail!

Whenever someone looks askance at me for suggesting INFPs revel in their use of aspirational Te, I automatically think of Isabel Briggs Myers, who had INFP preferences. Look at the amazing assessment she created with the MBTI instrument. And she did all the necessary psychometric calculations by hand, before calculators were created! For years, she re-calculated the impact of each new question she introduced, and adjusted the instrument to suit. It was a remarkable achievement, and an INFP did it. So don't tell me INFPs aren't able to access Te.

I saw an INFP recently take on Annie Murphy Paul in debate over her book, "The Cult of Personality: How Personality Tests Are Leading Us to Miseducate Our Children, Mismanage Our Companies, and Misunderstand Ourselves." I was impressed by how masterfully he took her on, point by point, never losing a sense of positive regard for her as a person, or even for many of the premises in her book. I'd have made it a catfight in a second, and heaven knows I wouldn't have been able to maintain positive regard for her or her idealistic attempt to affect positive change via her book. (I lost my respect for Paul when she said they would have to "agree to disagree," and then abandoned the field.)"

--INFJORINFP.COM

 

[Gabe]

Yes, there are definately two sides of this intellectual thing. I hate when people try to use 'nerd' as a debilitating insult. But I also can't stand the un-deserved veneration that Ivy-League schools get.

 

[heart]

That is an excellent observation, Gabe.