[Fi] INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

[PeaceBaby]

INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

At MacGuffin's suggestion, creating a thread:

EDIT: As a foreword, I am trying to create a space for INFP's & ENFP's to share their thoughts on the topic. Other types are welcome to participate in the discussion, not the poll. And I would love to hear from ISFP's and ESFP's even though this thread is in the NF section.​

When I first joined the forum, I was hoping it would be a place where we could ask questions, probe topics, honestly explore the nuances of what interests us about emotions and typology. A place where like-minded people could really go deep, really try to consider each other's POV. I started slow, but got daring over time to ask bigger questions, share my own thoughts, be challenging! What would happen? What would I learn?

And although I have learned much about the enneagram and cognitive functions, experienced a few great personal insights, and met a couple of people I would be honored to call my friends in real life, MOST of what I have learned, especially lately, is that freedom of expression is not welcome here. This forum is not a safe place, not at all.

Let's be honest; first off, who wants to talk about cognitive function theory in your "real world" life? Probably no one. So here, here the forum is supposed to be a place where you can talk about it. But, ironically, it's not - it can be worse than talking to the most disinterested person you can think of in your world - and at least they would be civil and polite, even if bored out of their mind!

There are people on this forum who say things to be deliberately mocking, hurtful and cruel to a degree that they would likely never dare to in "real life". These types of interactions read like "road rage" to me, yet they appear openly tolerated and are an accepted forum practice.

A recent example is the Fi thread that made it to the Graveyard, now split and the remnants inappropriately titled "Fi Gone Bad" ... in a thread about Fi, Fi users weren't "allowed" to discuss, debate, contradict, refine or otherwise engage the material without having to endure harassing, provocative comments throughout the thread.

Personally, when we talk about Fi on the forum, I want to talk about Fi in an Fi way. I don't want to talk about it through the lens of Fe. Every day I operate in society through that lens; I honor it and respect it, but here on the forum, I dare to hope my lens will be respected, contemplated, and even intriguing for others to hear about it.

It's naive of me to hope for that. But I do. Over and over again.

-----

So do you feel "safe" on the forum, to really share your Fi thoughts? Do you feel what you do share is respected?

Weigh in. INFP & ENFP preferred, but all Fi types welcome to share your experience and feedback here.

And if other types wish to contribute to the discussion, please do, but know this: any mocking, derisive, one-liner, negative or otherwise unhelpful comments will be reported to the mods asap for deletion.

Generally I ignore provocation, but I request this be a zero tolerance thread.

Otherwise, no one will feel safe to post at all, and it seems more voices need to be heard on this topic.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I'll see what I can contribute

 

[Arclight]

Wow.. This whole OP sounds exactly like everything it claims to be against.

Obviously after I read the OP, I voted no.. I do not feel safe at all to discuss Fi.. Unless of course I discuss it on Fi's terms..

 

[Aleksei]

I feel safe enough to discuss Fi, mostly because i can just steamroll over anyone trying to shut me down on it. I can understand it if other Fi users don't feel so bold though...

I tend not to discuss Fi from an Fi perspective though, as the inherently artificial nature of type means I could end up being off the mark. I use Te.

 

[Chloe]

Answer to title: I dont feel "safe" to openly share my opinion about discussions about Fi/Fe. I seriously dont get those discussions; over, and over and over and over again over the same thing It's okay but some people who are so interesting here.. yet they discuss the same thing over and over again - dont-get-it. Feel like I am among "stereotypical Ss" who speak about hair, football and sex 99,99% of time, just opposite extreme :/

I didnt participate or read many Fi threads but I have a feeling I'd probably come off as too critical of Fi. Not Fe. I dont mind being critical towards my own functions.

 

[Eckhart]

I don't know. I have made myself no real experiences as they are described in the OP with being mocked or personally attacked, but maybe it is because I am simply not sharing too much about my Fi myself on this forums, or at least often not that directly. Maybe I have also problems to describe my own Fi accurately, at least when I compare to some people in these forums which sometimes surprise me with their insights. I feel then always like "That is exactly what I feel!", although I would never have been able to verbalize it that way. So I often don't contribute to those discussions myself, but I like to read them - sadly there is not too many disucssions.

I have read posts and threads where I wasn't directly involved myself, and especially after the mentioned thread I can understand somewhat how you could come to opening the OP.

It is not safe to discuss everything here. Some things people don't want to hear, and some of those people again seem to personally attack other people who want to talk about those things. At the very best you find yourself being ignored, which is somewhat fair because no one is forced to answer everything, although it is also a little sad for the one who finds no one to discuss those things. But apparently it doesn't always stay at that level of ignorance.

 

[Rail Tracer]

I never knew how bad one single comment can make a Fi or Fe thread spiral out of control.

Then again, being against the description of that previous Fi thread just got me

"You are too serious about this stuff."
"This is just a general description."
"These descriptions were from Fi people."

Or for other people

"The other description was for Fe, not Fi"
"Your taking the context of what was written for the Fe description and sticking it as Fi."

Are we not allowed to disagree with a book? Are we not allowed to disagree with Keirsey? Are we not allowed to disagree with Typelogic? If you, or a book, are going to claim this of a function, than we are also allowed to disagree. I am not afraid to share my thoughts of Fi here because I disagree with most Fi descriptions out there.

For a lack of a better example, it is like saying the Te brings out the robot out of people. In this case, put something for Fi.

And to stop myself from getting provocative.....

 

[PeaceBaby]

I'll see what I can contribute

Thanks Scott.

Wow.. This whole OP sounds exactly like everything it claims to be against.

Obviously after I read the OP, I voted no.. I do not feel safe at all to discuss Fi.. Unless of course I discuss it on Fi's terms..

The OP is restricted atm in order to help create a safe space for sharing without fear of censure or derision (if that's even possible). I am trying to coax some thoughts on the topic out into the open. That means I must restrict the comments from others that could serve to limit discussion in the first place. And, this is not in the general forum, thus I don't think I am out of line to request such a thing here.

What type do you feel you are Arclight: eNFj? In that case, you wouldn't vote, but of course I love to hear your thoughts. Expand on how you, as an Fe user, feel like it's not "safe" to talk about Fi. I am interested.

I feel safe enough to discuss Fi, mostly because i can just steamroll over anyone trying to shut me down on it. I can understand it if other Fi users don't feel so bold though...

I tend not to discuss Fi from an Fi perspective though, as the inherently artificial nature of type means I could end up being off the mark. I use Te.

Expand that Aleksei ... why do you feel you need to use Te?

Answer to title: I dont feel "safe" to openly share my opinion about discussions about Fi/Fe. I seriously dont get those discussions; over, and over and over and over again over the same thing It's okay but some people who are so interesting here.. yet they discuss the same thing over and over again - dont-get-it. Feel like I am among "stereotypical Ss" who speak about hair, football and sex 99,99% of time, just opposite extreme :/

I didnt participate or read many Fi threads but I have a feeling I'd probably come off as too critical of Fi. Not Fe. I dont mind being critical towards my own functions.

Sorry Petra, your type isn't listed, is it INFP? (Neither is my type listed atm so I am going to add it after I finish this reply.) Do you not feel interested to discuss Fi, or just have focus on other forum subjects? Do you feel that others' opinions already include yours, or they are so off the mark you can't be bothered to try to articulate the difference? Just kind of feel "meh" on the subject?

 

[skylights]

edit - sometimes i go back and read how much i've written and wonder how anyone would want to read all that. lol.

being that i was a major participant in that last Fi scandal, what i'll say is this - typology as handled by this forum has given me a lens through which i can finally understand a lot of the countersocial yet person-oriented tendencies and feelings i've had, and it's pretty cool both to know that there are people who share the same perspective as myself, and it's wonderful to have learned more about how others work - i have to point out Fidelia especially, who's been amazing in that regard. i have learned so much from her about how to look at things outside of my own perspective.

also, i don't necessarily take "Fe" and "Fi" as real things. they're a toolset for understanding perspectives - a description of perspective - and when i talk about them, i'm referring to the perspectives that they describe, which are only applicable to people as much they believe this theory is applicable.

that said -

conversational differences
i think Fi conversation runs differently than Fe conversation, and that can come off badly. i think Fi conversation is very subject-oriented, and kind of ignores interpersonal implications. i don't think about how what i'll say will affect each person in the group, and i don't think about how it will affect the group as a whole. i just hope someone will be able to find something valuable in it. so i think others read interpersonal implications into Fi conversations which just aren't there.

what i express =/= set in stone
i think what often happens is that my and others' personal temporal and changeable thoughts, questionings, and opinions are being blown into something they are not meant to be - into permanent, universal declarations. when i make a point, i'm generally throwing a suggestion or belief out there. it's not set in stone, and it's definitely not a declaration of idea possession. i have no idea why anyone feels the need to direct my personal self and my opinions, or to blow my attempts at suggesting different ways of phrasing things into plagiarism. the things i say, they're just ideas. it's an internet forum. this isn't the be-all-end-all, and i'm here to explore and discover, not to stake my claim in the academic world or to write laws on stone tablets for all of humankind to follow for the rest of eternity. i always have loved the internet because there's very little thought restriction. hell, i love 4chan for that reason. funny how the toilet bowl of the internet is one of the safest places for freedom of speech.

restrictions
i guess my question for any Fe users who get ticked off by Fi threads is this - so what if we say things that you don't like? so what if we make statements that are dramatic and overwrought and possibly bizarre and just experimentation? no one dies. the sky doesn't fall in. the stock market doesn't crash. it's like... it's no big deal. so we say that we don't like the way that damn haas Fi guide is worded, why do you care so much? i care because it's supposed to be about me. i care because it pisses me off to be misrepresented. i don't want people misunderstanding who i am. why is that such a problem?

do i feel safe sharing my thoughts about Fi?
i feel on edge, after the legal threats, honestly. i feel afraid that someone's going to figure out my identity and bring a court case against me and sue me for plagiarism and destroy any hope i ever had of having an academic career because of a stupid rewording. i suspect that user probably really doesn't care that much, but the fear has already been planted there, and it's not going to go away any time soon. so yes - i've had all the "average" insecurities of being called a whiner, self-absorbed, melodramatic, and oversensitive - and now you can add to that mix a real fear of being hurt IRL for voicing what i feel in a way someone else doesn't like.

so around certain users, fuck no i do not.

 

[Arclight]

The OP is restricted atm in order to help create a safe space for sharing without fear of censure or derision (if that's even possible). I am trying to coax some thoughts on the topic out into the open. That means I must restrict the comments from others that could serve to limit discussion in the first place. And, this is not in the general forum, thus I don't think I am out of line to request such a thing here.

What type do you feel you are Arclight: eNFj? In that case, you wouldn't vote, but of course I love to hear your thoughts. Expand on how you, as an Fe user, feel like it's not "safe" to talk about Fi. I am interested.

A couple of things.. I am an Fe "dom".. this does not exclude me from being an Fi user .. I use all 8 functions. On function tests, my Fi often scores higher than my Fe. SO regardless of my type , I feel I can discuss Fi and what it is with accuracy no matter what position it ranks on my function scale.

I am not sure I agree with any "controlled" discussion.
I understand your point.. But in doing so , you become exactly what you are saying you are opposed to.
You want an open discussion as long as it is on your terms. All my values are prone to disagree with such censorship.

I mean no disrespect. I rather like you. But this thread is unsettling in many ways.

 

[gromit]

Unfortunately, I don't know that I have enough of an opinion on Fi to feel unsafe sharing it. I mostly just see it as personal values which I strive to live by.

I wish people wouldn't attack/feel attacked by each other though.

 

[Seymour]

So, to address the paragraph on the OP that might have set arclight off:

Personally, when we talk about Fi on the forum, I want to talk about Fi in an Fi way. I don't want to talk about it through the lens of Fe. Every day I operate in society through that lens; I honor it and respect it, but here on the forum, I dare to hope my lens will be respected, contemplated, and even intriguing for others to hear about it.

I don't think PeaceBaby is saying that she's unwilling to meet people halfway, or that she's always unwilling to translate into other styles. Instead, I think she's saying that it should be okay to sound like an Fi-user; it shouldn't be okay to belittle and attack the way Fi-users naturally approach topics. It's especially wrong when the topic is Fi. It's absolutely ridiculous when the topic in question is Fi as experienced by Fi-ers. (Feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly, PeaceBaby.)

A typology forum should be a place where it's okay to "be" your type, as long as you have respect for other people's approaches as well. There should be room for multiple approaches. I think PeaceBaby's point about how the grave-yarded split got labeled is illustrative.

And, as I posted in another thread, I understand how going over the same issues repeatedly can become tedious for others. Fi, like Ti, has to figure things out for itself. We don't just naturally accept the general consensus. So, that means there's going to be a lot of retreading as we match our personal experiences to the experiences of others and to theory. But again, one doesn't have to follow every single thread, nor should one attack people for trying to work through things themselves.

I personally tend to be very non-confrontational, and try to give people the benefit of a doubt (not that I always succeed). I also attempt to express things in a way that is precise and reasonably Ti-friendly, so as not to leave myself open to attack. That means I don't share some things that I suspect I would share if the environment felt safer.

I accept that no forum environment is going to be perfect, and a certain amount of critiquing (and even conflict) is healthy. Still, I think it's gone beyond that in some cases. I don't know how resolve those situations, since I don't like calling people out in public nor do I want to stir up trouble unnecessarily. That leaves me at a bit of a loss.

 

[Arclight]

Dear Seymour.

First of all.. I am not "set off" .. Do I sound angry or upset? I am unsettled a little. Not by the topic, but rather how there seems to be an open attempt to not discuss the topic, except with those who might validate and support the claims made in the OP.
Any "open" discussion involves all voices whether they are agreeable or not.
I am also unsettled that I am considered an "Fe user" as though it means I cannot possibly understand Fi.
I am an F dom and use both Fi and Fe in just about everything I do. Therefore I find this thread going down the slippery slope of prejudice. Which from what I can gather, is what the thread is supposed to be protecting itself against.

And if other types wish to contribute to the discussion, please do, but know this: any mocking, derisive, one-liner, negative or otherwise unhelpful comments will be reported to the mods asap for deletion.

The above quoted is what unsettles me the most. I find it's undertone threatening and hypocritical. I find this thread hypocritical of everything it is attempting to achieve.

 

[kyuuei]

Hm. So is it safe to start out this thread by asking what everyone's personal definitions are of Fi? I didn't read this so-called scandalous thread, but it seems to me semantics are being debated here more-so than what the OP is wanting. Maybe by defining, in each person's own words, what Fi *truly* means and laying it out helps? I feel like a lot of statements are abitrary and relying on people to remember things from other threads they may not have participated in previously.. so I'm finding it difficult to participate.

Takeru, I don't think you're wrong in disagreeing with descriptions of things out there. But, please post what you DO think as well.

 

[skylights]

arclight... i see what you mean about hypocrisy, but i think PB's just trying to foster a "safe space" where you can say anything you want as long as it's not aimed specifically at hurting someone else.

even if something is reported, the mods will decide if it's a legitimate claim or not. none of us non-mods can really effectively stop you from saying anything you want to say, nor do i think anyone really wants to. we - and by we i don't mean just Fi dom/aux, i mean anyone who has felt this - just don't want to be personally attacked and threatened for our thoughts and opinions that we have been attacked and threatened over in the past.

--

And, as I posted in another thread, I understand how going over the same issues repeatedly can become tedious for others. Fi, like Ti, has to figure things out for itself. We don't just naturally accept the general consensus. So, that means there's going to be a lot of retreading as we match our personal experiences to the experiences of others and to theory. But again, one doesn't have to follow every single thread, nor should one attack people for trying to work through things themselves.

yeah. so it's the 5000th Fi-Fe thread. so what? if someone wants to talk about something else, they can just make a different thread. imo, every new thread brings some new understandings. i don't get the "same thing all over again" claims. there's always something new.

 

[Rail Tracer]

Takeru, I don't think you're wrong in disagreeing with descriptions of things out there. But, please post what you DO think as well.

For that thread in particular, I said that the Fi descriptions were too specific, I could essentially have done what Hopelandic did and mark most of those descriptions as false. If someone is going to claim that the Fi description is a general description, it better sound like a general description.

I generally do post what I think unless it is counter productive. If I do post even though it is counter productive, I post with a sentence to lessen the load (e.g. "It only applies to me though.").

 

[PeaceBaby]

A couple of things.. I am an Fe "dom".. this does not exclude me from being an Fi user .. I use all 8 functions. On function tests, my Fi often scores higher than my Fe. SO regardless of my type , I feel I can discuss Fi and what it is with accuracy no matter what position it ranks on my function scale.

Well, this thread isn't set up to debate the semantics of function theory. Since you identify as an Fe dom, I respectfully request that you please allow some space for Fi doms and auxs to share here, at this time, in this place. Your actions are undermining what I am trying to do for the group, and will basically ensure no Fi folks will share. Do you see how that impacts the whole forum and the long-term ability for this place to grow?

Please, Arclight, please let this thread have a chance. I like you too and have no personal issue with you, and respect your POV. Share with me via PM and I will happily discuss it further.

Unfortunately, I don't know that I have enough of an opinion on Fi to feel unsafe sharing it. I mostly just see it as personal values which I strive to live by.

I wish people wouldn't attack/feel attacked by each other though.

Thanks gromit for your thoughts - I share your sentiment as well.

I don't think PeaceBaby is saying that she's unwilling to meet people halfway, or that she's always unwilling to translate into other styles. Instead, I think she's saying that it should be okay to sound like an Fi-user; it shouldn't be okay to belittle and attack the way Fi-users naturally approach topics. It's especially wrong when the topic is Fi. It's absolutely ridiculous when the topic in question is Fi as experienced by Fi-ers. (Feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting you incorrectly, PeaceBaby.)

Thanks Seymour, that's exactly correct. Thanks for the cogent interpretation, and your thoughts are appreciated.

Hm. So is it safe to start out this thread by asking what everyone's personal definitions are of Fi? I didn't read this so-called scandalous thread, but it seems to me semantics are being debated here more-so than what the OP is wanting. Maybe by defining, in each person's own words, what Fi *truly* means and laying it out helps? I feel like a lot of statements are abitrary and relying on people to remember things from other threads they may not have participated in previously.. so I'm finding it difficult to participate.

Takeru, I don't think you're wrong in disagreeing with descriptions of things out there. But, please post what you DO think as well.

Thanks kyuuei for your post. What I hope to hear from people is how safe they feel to talk about Fi in the first place - my suspicion is that people are generally reserved on the topic here and don't share because they don't want to stand out, be made fun of, be incorrect or disagreed with or potentially face censure from the group for sharing their opinions. They can see what happens when an Fi-er starts to "stand out" - who wants to be THAT person? LOL!

So, no, I don't want to really explore what Fi is here. That would break us into further semantics that detract from the question. But I am really interested in how you feel on the topic ... your opinion is important too!


Basically, I hope to learn: Do you feel safe to be yourself here (of course, keeping in mind common-sense internet safety rules)?

Do you feel you can be an Fi dom or aux, talking in an Fi way, without getting hopped on?

 

[Arclight]

Well, this thread isn't set up to debate the semantics of function theory.

That is exactly what it is.

But I will leave because I do not feel welcome to participate in a thread on a subject I am more than (or no less) qualified to discuss.

 

[Thalassa]

Arclight *is* an Fi dom, so just let him keep talking.

 

[tkae.]

Nope.

All I'm gonna say on that.