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[ENFP] ENFPs- Question from an ISTJ

CzeCze

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Hey IZ, you should ask CharmedJustice. She has been married to an ISTJ for several years. She might have changed her type to ENFJ but should give you insights...not sure she is still on.

I have an ISTJ friend and we get along very well, much more steady than some of her other friendship. Basically accepting who the other is at their core and letting things slide more or less goes a long way. You basically have to accept that this person will do XYZ for the rest of their lives - can you accept that? I think in romantic relationships there is often less give and take and more expectations because everything is just more high-pressure. You may SAY you can 'put up with' something forever but you know you really can't and you can't give up the idea that the other person should change for you "if they really love you" and then things get ugly.

I think for relationships particularly 'opposites attract' that's what both partners need to make it work - a lot of give and take.

Also, I have noticed with my ISTJ friend when it comes to dating is that people assume she is a very stable person so they try to set her up with other very stable (SJ-ish) people. She said she was almost insulted basically because she wondered if people thought of her as boring or why they thought she would want someone who basically is not exciting. You know like the house of hufflepuffs or whatever their name is in Harry Potter? That's how she thinks other people see her when it comes to dating, or at least when it comes to setting her up with other people.

Not sure if that answers your OP at all...
 

Edgar

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The ISTJ/ENFP dynamic is tough, but an any type dynamic is.

Some are easier than others.

If you believe that all types have the same dynamic amongst each other, then you're missing the whole point of Myers Briggs. Being of one type or another is more than just liking apple martinis or enjoying getting caught in the rain. A type determines how a person sees the world, how she/he communicates, and what type of behavior she/he is comfortable with. The 16 types don't exist in the ether, independent of each other. The study of type dynamic is a major portion of Myers Briggs. If you don't believe that, then you shouldn't have even brought up the ENFP/ISTJ thing in the first place.

I'm more interested in an honest assessment of steps taken to make it work because you love the person first.

What do you love her for, exactly? This isn't a rhetorical question.

I'm guessing it's not for what she does or says, because that is what you are trying to fix.

The idea of "love at first sight" is horseshit, btw. You cannot love a person without knowing anything about them. There is only lust at first sight. Love takes a while to develop - through communication, understanding, and finally cherished acceptance.

Here's an idea - write down a list of things that annoy you about your ENFP, and then write down a list of things that that you like about her (and don't list physical traits). If the annoy-list is bigger than the like-list, you are wasting your time... and everyone elses for that matter.
 

Zarathustra

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[can't frickin multiquote for some reason -- want to respond to Oro as well...]

Let me ask this then....if your ISTJ (or S, whatever) can keep up and follow where you are going, but maybe that's just not their mode of communication- what does that mean to you? Like they can understand Your French but their preference is to speak German or something like that. While I fit the ISTJ stereotype more than I do INTJ- I see strong similarities. I just don't feel like the barrier between me and you is so different that I couldn't make a relationship work with a person. I've NEVER had the problem.

Hmmm... well, here's what I have to say:

First off, as I stated, I like ISTJs, and I get along with them well. Being ITJs, we are both Pi doms, which we follow up with a Te and Fi, and, whatever the difference between Ni and Si, all that other stuff together, makes us very similar, in my opinion.

I do, however, feel that ISTJs tend to be a bit less intellectually explorative than INTJs. You guys are more down to earth, while we're more up in the clouds, or, perhaps to word it a bit more kindly to INTJs: we tend to be more abstract thinkers, while ISTJs are more concrete and factual. The latter one is probably a better description, as it accentuates the positives of both styles...

So, to your question: what does this mean to me? Well, that's all a matter of context...

I ain't trying to date an ISTJ chick (not to say that it couldn't work or anything...:thinking:), so I haven't really thought about that much.

With regards to an ESFP, however, it means A LOT.

I just don't think that, for the most part, an ESFP will be able to stay with me the way an ENFP will be able tol... nor the way an ISTJ will be able to (which might actually differ from the way an ENFP will stay with me) for that matter...

Which leads me to the question I had for Oro: assuming that ENFP-INTJ and ESFP-ISTJ relationships are ideal (as some sources say they are), do you think that the switch to ENFP-ISTJ and INTJ-ESFP would be equally less ideal than the former two, or do you think one of them makes more sense than the other?

(note: I'm sure we all know this, but we're basically discussing the difference between PersonalityPage's/Keirsey's and Socionics' recommendations for ideal romantic relationships)

Socionics' "dual" relationship actually recommends the two partners have opposite perception preferences, while PersonalityPage/Keirsey recommend they be the same.
 

Thalassa

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I personally have an easier time with SFJs. I'm sure both ISxJ types share an ability to be grounded, organized, orderly, and sensible - which is something some ExFPs are strongly drawn to and want - but I have this feeling that an ISFJ can guide an ENFP to seeing his point of view without correcting her as harshly because of command of Fe. The S/N divide probably also doesn't feel as sharp because of the coziness that can spring from shared Feeler-style communication.

Now, I want to give you encouragement, though, because ISTJ is ENFP backwards (Si/Te/Fi/Ne) and the shared functions in older, mature ENFP/ISTJ couples probably works better. I know it's much easier for me to relate to an SJ who has some command of his or her Ne.

I've found that certain members of both IxTJ types (and yes that includes INTJs as well) can be overly authoritative, and that's a big turn-off. I really hate feeling like I'm having a conversation with a probation officer. But of course, not all INTJs or ISTJs are like that, but this may lie at the heart of some of the complaints you see ENFPs having about ISTJs.
 

Thalassa

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I love when you do my taxes.

Ask every male ENFP how much they love ISTJ chicks and then come talk to me. ENFP women who like ISTJ men are usually insecure and want a provider and someone who seems to be "together". They want to be taken care off and that screams dependency issues. What they really NEED though is emotional connectedness. That takes communication and dropping down the stoic act...and more importantly...being ok with it.

It's okay to be attracted to "togetherness." That doesn't necessarily scream "dependency issues." Who the hell are you to tell other people what they need from a relationship?

I often wonder when I read your posts if you've ever even had a relationship, because you appear to see all relationships as co-dependent.
 

Thalassa

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I rarely see ISTJs complain aobut the ENFPs. We're more likely to want to work it out.

This is something I like about SJs, collectively...a trend toward wanting to work things out once the relationship has been established. Shared past is enough to make a commitment to making it work. I find something incredibly endearing and "safe" about that.
 

IZthe411

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Hey IZ, you should ask CharmedJustice. She has been married to an ISTJ for several years. She might have changed her type to ENFJ but should give you insights...not sure she is still on.

I have an ISTJ friend and we get along very well, much more steady than some of her other friendship. Basically accepting who the other is at their core and letting things slide more or less goes a long way. You basically have to accept that this person will do XYZ for the rest of their lives - can you accept that? I think in romantic relationships there is often less give and take and more expectations because everything is just more high-pressure. You may SAY you can 'put up with' something forever but you know you really can't and you can't give up the idea that the other person should change for you "if they really love you" and then things get ugly.

I think for relationships particularly 'opposites attract' that's what both partners need to make it work - a lot of give and take.

Also, I have noticed with my ISTJ friend when it comes to dating is that people assume she is a very stable person so they try to set her up with other very stable (SJ-ish) people. She said she was almost insulted basically because she wondered if people thought of her as boring or why they thought she would want someone who basically is not exciting. You know like the house of hufflepuffs or whatever their name is in Harry Potter? That's how she thinks other people see her when it comes to dating, or at least when it comes to setting her up with other people.

Not sure if that answers your OP at all...

I'll reach out to CJ, thanks.

I'm definitely the 'take you as you are' type, and am not trying to change anybody. The right things have to be THERE before anything progresses. Being introverted I'm not, and haven't dated seriously much, but when I do, you got me.

I feel your friend!I wanna be the serious one in the relationship! But I'm also silly, goofy in some respects. I have a huge capacity to have fun. I can't have a girl who cannot take a joke. I want a girl that can bring that side out of me. I'm the introvert, the homebody- I want a girl who's going to bring that side out of me.
If she's fun, playful, likes to laugh, but can sit back and can get deep/intellectual as well, I'm hooked. :)

Thanks.
 

IZthe411

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[can't frickin multiquote for some reason -- want to respond to Oro as well...]







Hmmm... well, here's what I have to say:

First off, as I stated, I like ISTJs, and I get along with them well. Being ITJs, we are both Pi doms, which we follow up with a Te and Fi, and, whatever the difference between Ni and Si, all that other stuff together, makes us very similar, in my opinion.

I do, however, feel that ISTJs tend to be a bit less intellectually explorative than INTJs. You guys are more down to earth, while we're more up in the clouds, or, perhaps to word it a bit more kindly to INTJs: we tend to be more abstract thinkers, while ISTJs are more concrete and factual. The latter one is probably a better description, as it accentuates the positives of both styles...

So, to your question: what does this mean to me? Well, that's all a matter of context...

I ain't trying to date an ISTJ chick (not to say that it couldn't work or anything...:thinking:), so I haven't really thought about that much.

With regards to an ESFP, however, it means A LOT.

I just don't think that, for the most part, an ESFP will be able to stay with me the way an ENFP will be able tol... nor the way an ISTJ will be able to (which might actually differ from the way an ENFP will stay with me) for that matter...

Which leads me to the question I had for Oro: assuming that ENFP-INTJ and ESFP-ISTJ relationships are ideal (as some sources say they are), do you think that the switch to ENFP-ISTJ and INTJ-ESFP would be equally less ideal than the former two, or do you think one of them makes more sense than the other?

(note: I'm sure we all know this, but we're basically discussing the difference between PersonalityPage's/Keirsey's and Socionics' recommendations for ideal romantic relationships)

Socionics' "dual" relationship actually recommends the two partners have opposite perception preferences, while PersonalityPage/Keirsey recommend they be the same.

I have 2 INTJ confirmed friends. They are night and day though. But It's never been an issue of the content of our discussions, maybe we'll have opposing views (and both are NEVER wrong LOL).
I definitely see more similarities over differences.

The IxTJ girl doesn't sound like they'd do it for me. I can't say that for sure though, I might get caught by her mind, and she'd have me hooked!

But I see what you mean man...I dunno, I wish I could find out exactly where I fell on the typology continuum.

Personally I see Si/Ne or Ni/Se more apt to work than Si/Se Ni/Ne.....I dunno- the different perspectives are actually compimentary- both are operating on a Dom/Inf level, where, if both are mature, are likely to want to have that side brought out. Not to say I can't get with ESFPs. I dated an ISFP. She was a good girl, but no mental spark. I definitely need the E.
 

IZthe411

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I personally have an easier time with SFJs. I'm sure both ISxJ types share an ability to be grounded, organized, orderly, and sensible - which is something some ExFPs are strongly drawn to and want - but I have this feeling that an ISFJ can guide an ENFP to seeing his point of view without correcting her as harshly because of command of Fe. The S/N divide probably also doesn't feel as sharp because of the coziness that can spring from shared Feeler-style communication.

Now, I want to give you encouragement, though, because ISTJ is ENFP backwards (Si/Te/Fi/Ne) and the shared functions in older, mature ENFP/ISTJ couples probably works better. I know it's much easier for me to relate to an SJ who has some command of his or her Ne.

I've found that certain members of both IxTJ types (and yes that includes INTJs as well) can be overly authoritative, and that's a big turn-off. I really hate feeling like I'm having a conversation with a probation officer. But of course, not all INTJs or ISTJs are like that, but this may lie at the heart of some of the complaints you see ENFPs having about ISTJs.

Don't sleep on Fe now....I'm sure the SFJs got a manner that is probably warmer, but they can be as bad as the Ts.

I'm actually trying to explore how strong my Ne is. These written tests are garbage, too. How have you figured out where you fall with your Si? I do know my Ne's better than my Fi, if that's allowed. LOL But I'm all about developing both, and I'd love to do it with my love.

Bottom line: If it's love coming from the right place, the ISTJ can and will deliver. If they can't, they'll die trying.
 

IZthe411

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This is something I like about SJs, collectively...a trend toward wanting to work things out once the relationship has been established. Shared past is enough to make a commitment to making it work. I find something incredibly endearing and "safe" about that.

Yeah well that was the basis of my last relationship. We had history. We had fun. Horrible as lovers. I wanted to work, though. I really did.
 

Thalassa

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Don't sleep on Fe now....I'm sure the SFJs got a manner that is probably warmer, but they can be as bad as the Ts.

I'm actually trying to explore how strong my Ne is. These written tests are garbage, too. How have you figured out where you fall with your Si? I do know my Ne's better than my Fi, if that's allowed. LOL But I'm all about developing both, and I'd love to do it with my love.

Bottom line: If it's love coming from the right place, the ISTJ can and will deliver. If they can't, they'll die trying.

I was with an ESFJ for five years, and have known him for ten. I have a pretty close male friend who is ISFJ, and I know they'll have a coniption fit if you can't adhere to order...good thing I like a certain amount of systematic structure and do quite well in a very tidy environment where there are clear boundaries. I believe I have QUITE A BIT of Si for an ENFP, enough to make me think at times I'm INFP.

But yeah, either you love the structure or you don't and that goes for SFJs as well as STJs. I just think it my case I really respond to their warmth, and their way of explaining an opposing point of view. I recently realized that the ISFJ I know can get me to see both sides of a situation, or see things the way he sees it without pissing me off or pressing my buttons. That's a major feat, bro.

Then again, sometimes my ESFJ ex and I were likely to kill one another. We either got along like twins or were at each others throats. I can't really say if that has anything to do with type, or just our respective issues...he's got some issues that have nothing to do with MBTI.
 

IZthe411

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I was with an ESFJ for five years, and have known him for ten. I have a pretty close male friend who is ISFJ, and I know they'll have a coniption fit if you can't adhere to order...good thing I like a certain amount of systematic structure and do quite well in a very tidy environment where there are clear boundaries. I believe I have QUITE A BIT of Si for an ENFP, enough to make me think at times I'm INFP.

But yeah, either you love the structure or you don't and that goes for SFJs as well as STJs. I just think it my case I really respond to their warmth, and their way of explaining an opposing point of view. I recently realized that the ISFJ I know can get me to see both sides of a situation, or see things the way he sees it without pissing me off or pressing my buttons. That's a major feat, bro.

Then again, sometimes my ESFJ ex and I were likely to kill one another. We either got along like twins or were at each others throats. I can't really say if that has anything to do with type, or just our respective issues...he's got some issues that have nothing to do with MBTI.

I work with 2 ESFJs at work, and they are from both extremes. One guy's a little more laid back, I thought he was introverted. I figured out Si quickly (he's relatively new) but his Fe took some time. The other dude is from South america and is so grandiose in everything he does. But he's the giggly, back patting kind of guy (a terror to work for though).

I appreciate structure- hate too much of it, especially dumb and unnecessary structure. My old boss was like that. He loved to say he hated micromanaging, and would let you do your own thing, but he would take your work and critique it until it becomes his work. Either that or he tried to make it become what he thought his boss wanted. UGGh!!

I actually like working within a framework where you there is some room for interpretation and guesswork, and doing your own thing- sort of speak. We are actually having a methodology change at work- one from where everything is predictable to something a with a little more abstraction to it. Some people are in panic mode. I love it.

I prefer really to first get the big picture, then the underlying principles, then the steps to getting the job done. I find I'm more of a thinker than a doer, too.
 

Thalassa

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Makes sense. Everyone has their own definition of what that structural framework or system should be, and it's totally a lame stereotype to say all SJs love any kind of structure, or love rules of any kind. That's actually a bunch of bullshit. I mean those people do exist, but I would say it was more a sign of "lack of intelligence" than SJ. My ESFJ ex certainly developed his Ne, and takes real issue with a certain kind of authority, actually. Same with ISFJ I know - not that I know him as well, because I don't - but I see him wanting a certain kind of orderliness, yet at the same time not necessarily being a big fan of other people's rules if he can't see reason or fairness in those rules.
 

IZthe411

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Makes sense. Everyone has their own definition of what that structural framework or system should be, and it's totally a lame stereotype to say all SJs love any kind of structure, or love rules of any kind. That's actually a bunch of bullshit. I mean those people do exist, but I would say it was more a sign of "lack of intelligence" than SJ. My ESFJ ex certainly developed his Ne, and takes real issue with a certain kind of authority, actually. Same with ISFJ I know - not that I know him as well, because I don't - but I see him wanting a certain kind of orderliness, yet at the same time not necessarily being a big fan of other people's rules if he can't see reason or fairness in those rules.

You are right on that last point....While I ran away from my former boss as fast as I could, this ENFP on my team actually requested him. I'm like :huh:. She actually liked his structure.
 

skylights

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The question: As an ENFP, What did you/did not do to hinder a rewarding relationship with someone who is ISTJ?

It's impossible that the frequent attraction always ends up a one-sided disaster. It takes 2. On this board, ENFPs will trash their relationships with ISTJs and what they did wrong and how they didn't change. But what did the ENFP do/not do to not make it work isn't discussed, as if the person's very being just ruined things.

The ISTJ/ENFP dynamic is tough, but an any type dynamic is. Really communication period is always a tricky thing, but it's especially tough on that most intimate level.

I agree with you on the point you make about wanting to be challenged with your partner. That makes for a very dynamic and rewarding relationship.

ahh, i see. thanks for rephrasing it :)

i've never been in a relationship with an ISTJ, but i did meet a good (confirmed) ISTJ friend of mine a few summers ago. we got along almost immediately in a quiet, peaceful way. we have a pleasant sort of understanding, though she was more sharp and responsible than i was when it came to applying oneself to schoolwork and such. excellent to work in groups with, though. based off my experience with her i could easily see having a relationship with an ISTJ.

one thing i do want to point out is that an ENFP might not talk very much about everything we tried to change in ourselves because we're always changing, if that makes sense. i have a very fluid baseline and i adapt day-by-day, minute-by-minute to whatever my partner's preferences are. i do work hard to try to meet them wherever they're at and will let them take the lead most of the time if they prefer. we're both usually quite happy that way. my personal problems - things i'm doing wrong - often occur in places i just don't even see, especially if my partner is hesitant for whatever reason to open up and share their understanding of things with me. from my end it turns out feeling like i'm always doing things for them, plus they won't open up to me, plus they're being cold to me for some unknown reason, and it's frustrating and confusing. i need to see things through the other person's perspective to understand what i'm doing wrong, so they have to share with me how they're perceiving things for me to be able to make any headway. maybe that sounds like whining and placing blame, but what i'm trying to say is that i can't fix what i'm not aware of. so if i'm not aware... then i might just talk about what they're doing wrong.

the "structure" thing is a good point as well. depending on how i feel about a person, structure can either make me feel safe or like rebelling as much as possible. ii run like a bat out of hell (and/or attack) if i feel like i'm being pigeonholed and micromanaged, especially if the other person doesn't talk much to me. I and J can be a dangerous combination for interacting with me because of that.
 

Moiety

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It's okay to be attracted to "togetherness." That doesn't necessarily scream "dependency issues." Who the hell are you to tell other people what they need from a relationship?

No one. Don't give my words so much weight. I am after clueless.

I don't see all relationships as co-dependent. If you had to the ability to be unbiased in your analysis of my posts you'd understand that. I am an ENFP and am speaking from the perspective of an ENFP and what I feel we need. You want me to quote you whenever you say anything general about ENFPs as if they shared your opinion?
 

Thalassa

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No one. Don't give my words so much weight. I am after clueless.

I don't see all relationships as co-dependent. If you had to the ability to be unbiased in your analysis of my posts you'd understand that. I am an ENFP and am speaking from the perspective of an ENFP and what I feel we need. You want me to quote you whenever you say anything general about ENFPs as if they shared your opinion?

Dude, you were saying that ENFP females (you are not a female) who like ISTJs all must have dependency issues. So you weren't even speaking for yourself, as an ENFP female. It was just a really nasty and hostile thing to say, and of course I'm going to have a subjective reaction to it, as I am one of those ENFP females who are drawn to the structured, "together" aura of INTJs and SFJs, if not ISTJs. You basically just made a blanket statement that presumed that ENFP females who want to be with someone more structured than they are are sadly lacking an emotional connection with their partners.

It just made me curious as to why you always seem to be making these posts calling other people co-dependent when we talk about relationships. This has been going on here and there in different threads for months.
 

Moiety

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Because most relationships don't last and people prefer to be blissfuly ignorant as to why. I don't interact with people based on MBTI, but I still think MBTI can teach us a thing or two about compatibility in the long run.

It's up to each person that reads my posts to give a fuck or not. To see merit in what I'm saying or not.

"You basically just made a blanket statement that presumed that ENFP females who want to be with someone more structured than they are are sadly lacking an emotional connection with their partners. "

I said, emotional connectedness is what ENFPs really want from a relationship. And I know we can connect emotionally with ANYONE on some level. So if we are in love of course we are gonna feel like it's enough for us. But I have big reservations concerning ENFP and ISTJ compatibility. I'm coming from a logical standpoint. No advice on relationships is ever valid if we are centered on what the two persons are feeling. Not my advice not everyone else's.

I'm blunt and I don't sugarcoat my opinions. But they are only as valid as they are.

If i make it a point to make my opinion known on the ISTJ/ENFP pairing, is because threads about its problems come up on the forum...and why as an ENFP I can see very clearly why it wouldn't work. And most ENFPs not currently on a relationship with a ISTJ would probably.
 

Thalassa

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Relationships don't last because people are immature and selfish and have unrealistic expectations. Lack of compatibility might have something to do with it, but not as much as people are trying to make it out to be I'm sure. I'd be married to my ESFJ ex right now if he'd decided to go into therapy two years ago instead of two months ago.

At any rate, I actually don't personally prefer ISTJs as my ideal mate, no, I don't, but in my case it reminds me of my grandfather, who was also my Father Figure growing up ...so yeah..no thank you. I personally connect better with someone whom I either share N or F with, I've found.

But I don't want to speak for other people, and certain people (like you...and quite frankly, Edgar) seem excessively negative in relationship threads and always have something cynical and pessimistic to say.
 

Moiety

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And what's the problem with that? True love conquers all.

"Relationships don't last because people are immature and selfish and have unrealistic expectations. "

Yeah, like expecting to live happily ever after with your opposite. And selfish yes, because don't realize you got to live and let live. I sure don't mean the perfect MBTI compatibility grants you the key to eternal happiness as a couple, but SiTe+NeFi is kind of too much. I can't even imagine the sort of conversations a Si-dom and a Ne-dom would have throughout the years. But sure, that's my opinion. I explained why. It's up to the reader to take it or leave it.
 
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