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[ENFP] ENFPs- Question from an ISTJ

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
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Jul 19, 2009
Messages
2,585
MBTI Type
INTJ
Don't deny it- you're feeling us, we're feeling you.
You love our apparent togetherness,
We love your apparent carefreeness.
It's cute when you say something bubbly, and we kind of squirm, at the same time we're loving it, even though our facial expression isn't registering that emotion.
There's a love melody playing everytime we see each other.
But somewhere down the line, the record skips, thing things that were at first cute are now annoying, and it sucks!

As an ISTJ on this forum, I've read over and over again how I played into causing stress on the relationship.

So I'd like to get some honest, critical feedback as to your blindspots and what can be done to make it work.

Cause you love us! Don't deny it!!!!!

im_a_sexy_beast_tshirt-235470320055973302
 

Moiety

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I love when you do my taxes.

Ask every male ENFP how much they love ISTJ chicks and then come talk to me. ENFP women who like ISTJ men are usually insecure and want a provider and someone who seems to be "together". They want to be taken care off and that screams dependency issues. What they really NEED though is emotional connectedness. That takes communication and dropping down the stoic act...and more importantly...being ok with it.

ISTJ men who fall for ENFP girls also do it for the wrong reasons. Like the chicks, they are drawn to something that they don't have themselves ( that zaniness of going about life, that spark and childlike behavior) and want to get it outside themselves.

Now, ENFPs and ISTJs can be great friends. Some of my best friends are ISTJs. But that's because they know they are responsible for all their functions and I'm responsible for all of mine. In an ENFP/ISTJ relationship there is no reason for a ENFP to develop Te and Si on their own, and no reason for the ISTJ to develop Fi and Ne, because you won the lottery and there is someone happy enough to "do the laundry for you".

And of course when things go sour, it's like a drug. You got used to it giving you things you couldn't normally get yourself, and then you have to go through withdrawal symptoms. But just as it's not good to be on addictive drugs in the long run....it's not good to become that dependent on something without working on it for yourself.

I'm sure my post is unpopular, but the truth often is.
 

IZthe411

Carerra Lu
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I love when you do my taxes.

Ask every male ENFP how much they love ISTJ chicks and then come talk to me. ENFP women who like ISTJ men are usually insecure and want a provider and someone who seems to be "together". They want to be taken care off and that screams dependency issues. What they really NEED though is emotional connectedness. That takes communication and dropping down the stoic act...and more importantly...being ok with it.

ISTJ men who fall for ENFP girls also do it for the wrong reasons. Like the chicks, they are drawn to something that they don't have themselves ( that zaniness of going about life, that spark and childlike behavior) and want to get it outside themselves.

Now, ENFPs and ISTJs can be great friends. Some of my best friends are ISTJs. But that's because they know they are responsible for all their functions and I'm responsible for all of mine. In an ENFP/ISTJ relationship there is no reason for a ENFP to develop Te and Si on their own, and no reason for the ISTJ to develop Fi and Ne, because you won the lottery and there is someone happy enough to "do the laundry for you".

And of course when things go sour, it's like a drug. You got used to it giving you things you couldn't normally get yourself, and then you have to go through withdrawal symptoms. But just as it's not good to be on addictive drugs in the long run....it's not good to become that dependent on something without working on it for yourself.

I'm sure my post is unpopular, but the truth often is.

There are no laws of attraction-no formula of what you are supposed to like and not! Men and women ARE different- that's why the attraction is there. Take out MBTI and you find that people are generally attracted to traits that they lack. Not for dependency, but becuse it's 'different'.

I don't get the maturity thing- I don't consider the trait as childlike. I used the word carefree to compliment the attitude that you don't worry about things as much as I do, which is attractive. A mature person sees that another person's strenghts as opportunity to become a better person themselves.


Maturity isn't associated with MBTI. Learning to develop your Te/Si or Ne/Fi should be your goal period.

You still haven't answered the question.
 

sculpting

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I havent dated an ISTJ, but I have three very good ISTJ friends. I make them laugh and relax and they point out when I am being ridiculous. We bitch and moan together, and often I can Ne walk them out of being so bummed out over stuff. They also get all of my stupid Ne jokes, which isnt always true for my INTJ. He just stares....I am like, dude that was soooo funny. He just stares. So I can make them giggle....

I am afraid if I was ever in a relationship with one of them, they may not like me because I am so messy.

However I use my limited Te on things like taxes or bills which I take very seriously, thus I would feel really crappy dumping work back on the other person. We also share a preference for Si to some extent since I am old and wrinkly, thus I find more and more often I will choose the conservative accepted solution over something new. I can sort of stake a middle ground between change and solidity.

Plus ISTJs, like INTJs are kinda cutely restrained. Yet they get all funny-cute Fi-eyed at times and it is pretty adorable.
 

Moiety

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There are no laws of attraction-no formula of what you are supposed to like and not! Men and women ARE different- that's why the attraction is there. Take out MBTI and you find that people are generally attracted to traits that they lack. Not for dependency, but becuse it's 'different'.

I know I sound arrogant, but trust me, people believe too much being smart has nothing to do with relationships or attraction, but it's not true. No one likes something "because it's different". You like something different if it has value. It's not like people consciously THINK they want dependency. It's not like ENFP chicks plot to get an ISTJ guy to take care of their taxes. People BECOME dependent, and LET themselves become dependent.

Have you never found a girl so hot, you kind of wish something happened between you too? Well you ARE attracted to something in her (her face or body) but that doesn't say anything about her other traits does it? Your body might even react automatically to the attraction. That doesn't mean you're gonna marry that girl just cause she's smoking hot now is it?

Analogously, just because you are attracted to other kinds of traits in someone, doesn't mean there's true potential there. It's gonna be for the right reasons. You can let yourself succumb to lust, or you can see if it makes sense, and more importantly if it makes you happy in the long run.

How many people ask advice on the ENFP/ISTJ pairing? How many people find themselves at a point where it becomes too hard? I'm not saying all this because I have a pet peeve with you guys or anything. I just hate to see people fool themselves. Now, I know fuck all, about your relationship. And even though I don't know you, I'd prefer if you were happy. Notice how I didn't say I'd prefer if your relationship worked out. That's because the point should be for both people to feel happy and comfortable. There is just too much compromise involved with such a opposite pairing imo.

I don't get the maturity thing- I don't consider the trait as childlike. I used the word carefree to compliment the attitude that you don't worry about things as much as I do, which is attractive. A mature person sees that another person's strenghts as opportunity to become a better person themselves.

A mature person doesn't need a relationship to (realize what he or she needs to) improve. And I wasn't saying ENFPs are immature. I used childlike as a positive trait too. See, already our relationship is having problems IZ :D

Maturity might not be associated with MBTI, you're right about that. But that's the whole point. I don't know how much I want to improve my Te or Si, because while in theory I recognize their merits, I'm perfectly comfortable being NeFi. And if being with someone means having a SiTe countering my natural way of being....I'm calling the wedding off :p


You still haven't answered the question.

Oh but I did. "That takes communication and dropping down the stoic act...and more importantly...being ok with it." Be honest with all the thoughts that go inside your mind and communicate them.

I'd need some more concrete details to be of more help. I can already tell you though, that the problem often is not not wanting the same things out of life....it's HOW you guys go after them. Family alone, is perceived very differently in an ISTJs head and in an ENFPs head.
 

sculpting

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moiety can you not appreciate the value of codependence?????? Quit fighting the fight and just give in!!!!

Okay, so seriously, the nice thing about these Te/Fi relationships seems to be the ability to Te style negotiate boundaries to prevent the other half from taking advantage of each other..

But on the other hand, INTJs are utterly obsessed with improving themselves and those around them via forced change. ISTJs seem more interested in maintenance of what works well. Thus perhaps in an INTJ relationship, the INTJ will force the ENFP to be more responsible, where the ISTJ will let the enfp be lazy as hell, but be bothered by the laziness. I can say this for certain but it might be something to speculate upon and look for....
 

IZthe411

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I started to write back but I figured out who you are... Moiety that is.

You just plain do not like ISTJs. I'm going to leave you alone.

I really thought you were a female- with some real strong opinions.
 

IZthe411

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moiety can you not appreciate the value of codependence?????? Quit fighting the fight and just give in!!!!

Okay, so seriously, the nice thing about these Te/Fi relationships seems to be the ability to Te style negotiate boundaries to prevent the other half from taking advantage of each other..

But on the other hand, INTJs are utterly obsessed with improving themselves and those around them via forced change. ISTJs seem more interested in maintenance of what works well. Thus perhaps in an INTJ relationship, the INTJ will force the ENFP to be more responsible, where the ISTJ will let the enfp be lazy as hell, but be bothered by the laziness. I can say this for certain but it might be something to speculate upon and look for....


See this an example of where the S automatically gets the bad trait, where an N gets the better, when both of them are Te/Fi...and both are prone to act the same in a Te/Fi manner, and where I see an N bias in the dynamic.

INTJs don't force- it's not their nature. If anything an INTJ will be indifferent, where an ISTJ will be bothered. Neither will say much of anything until it become a big deal.

A relationship can work if both parties are honest about self and the person they're with.

I rarely see ISTJs complain aobut the ENFPs. We're more likely to want to work it out.
 

Moiety

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Is topic isn't directed at females is it? You said ENFPs, not female ENFPs.

And, no I don't feel attraction to female ISTJs. But I like ISTJs just fine. My dad is one and so are two of my closest friends. I give shit/love to anyone IZ, not just ISTJs :)

And that's ok, if you want to disregard my advice. Just know I'm as ENFP as anybody else.
 

Moiety

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Is topic isn't directed at females is it? You said ENFPs, not female ENFPs.

And, no I don't feel attraction to female ISTJs. But I like ISTJs just fine. My dad is one and so are two of my closest friends. I give shit/love to anyone IZ, not just ISTJs :)

And that's ok, if you want to disregard my advice. Just know I'm as ENFP as anybody else.
 

IZthe411

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Is topic isn't directed at females is it? You said ENFPs, not female ENFPs.

And, no I don't feel attraction to female ISTJs. But I like ISTJs just fine. My dad is one and so are two of my closest friends. I give shit/love to anyone IZ, not just ISTJs :)

And that's ok, if you want to disregard my advice. Just know I'm as ENFP as anybody else.

Aight man I got you. Can't say I've paid attention to you giving hell to anybody else. But I take what I say back if you are equal opportunity. ;)
 

Esoteric Wench

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Well here's my female ENFP thoughts on the matter:

#1 - I assume that you're trying to get the skinny from females ENFPs due to obstacles in a current relationship in your life. If this is the case, it wouldn't do much good for me to say that I would probably never date an ISTJ. Not because they are an ISTJ per se. Just because we are on TOTALLY different planets. And, frankly, their planet bugs me. (This isn't personal IZthe411. I'm sure you're a very nice guy. I'm just trying to be honest with you.)

#2 - But say I found myself in such a relationship... Well the things that would drive me the most crazy would be that for my ISTJ things are just as they are. No imagination. No vision about a changeable future. No... well frankly... no N-ness.

Also, I would be keenly sensitive to them being terse with me. My best friend in high school was an ISTJ and she made me cry more than once. Her bluntness and her lack of awareness about how what she said would be received by others both hurt and angered me.

Finally, what would really, really, really drive me nuts would be when the ISTJ would state how things were and then refuse to listen to me when I argued how they were wrong. This goes back to the N/S thing. In other words, my ISTJ friend finds her view of reality to be self-evident. And shame on me for not looking at the facts logically. Ohhhhhhh.... that gets me really hot under the collar.

So why are you asking these questions, IZthe411?
 

IZthe411

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Well here's my female ENFP thoughts on the matter:

#1 - I assume that you're trying to get the skinny from females ENFPs due to obstacles in a current relationship in your life. If this is the case, it wouldn't do much good for me to say that I would probably never date an ISTJ. Not because they are an ISTJ per se. Just because we are on TOTALLY different planets. And, frankly, their planet bugs me. (This isn't personal IZthe411. I'm sure you're a very nice guy. I'm just trying to be honest with you.)
#2 - But say I found myself in such a relationship... Well the things that would drive me the most crazy would be that for my ISTJ things are just as they are. No imagination. No vision about a changeable future. No... well frankly... no N-ness. Also, I would be keenly sensitive to them being terse with me. My best friend in high school was an ISTJ and she made me cry more than once. Her bluntness and her lack of awareness about how what she said would be received by others both hurt and angered me. Finally, what would really, really, really drive me nuts would be when the ISTJ would state how things were and then refuse to listen to me when I argued how they were wrong. This goes back to the N/S thing. In other words, my ISTJ friend finds her view of reality to be self-evident. And shame on me for not looking at the facts logically. Ohhhhhhh.... that gets me really hot under the collar.

So why are you asking these questions, IZthe411?


I'm asking not for personal reasons, I've been thinking about it. I think this board really blows things out of proportion, and I think a lot of N users' perception of S users are very skewed to some bad experiences, with some people, and there is a very big assumption that they are SJs, without any confirmation except a few signs that aren't real indicative one type over the other.

At least you are honest to say that it bugs you- that's personal preference.

I'm more interested in an honest assessment of steps taken to make it work because you love the person first. My assumption is that the expectation of the effort is one-sided. As if the ISTJ is supposed to change their approach, while the other party doesn't.
 

Lady_X

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the effort is an everyday every sec ordeal...without ever truly feeling seen or heard and constantly compromising on things you see no value in.
 

skylights

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i don't understand the question, can you rephrase?

i mean, i read all the posts and i'm still not sure i understand what you're asking.

My assumption is that the expectation of the effort is one-sided. As if the ISTJ is supposed to change their approach, while the other party doesn't.

why would that be true? i think superficially every person on the planet would like that to be the case, because it requires no effort on our parts, but it's not good for anyone. i'd much rather have a partner who pushes me to be a better person than one who never challenges me.
 

IZthe411

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the effort is an everyday every sec ordeal...without ever truly feeling seen or heard and constantly compromising on things you see no value in.

So would you call your lack of desire a willingness to not adapt?
 

IZthe411

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i don't understand the question, can you rephrase?

i mean, i read all the posts and i'm still not sure i understand what you're asking.



why would that be true? i think superficially every person on the planet would like that to be the case, because it requires no effort on our parts, but it's not good for anyone. i'd much rather have a partner who pushes me to be a better person than one who never challenges me.

The question: As an ENFP, What did you/did not do to hinder a rewarding relationship with someone who is ISTJ?

It's impossible that the frequent attraction always ends up a one-sided disaster. It takes 2. On this board, ENFPs will trash their relationships with ISTJs and what they did wrong and how they didn't change. But what did the ENFP do/not do to not make it work isn't discussed, as if the person's very being just ruined things.

The ISTJ/ENFP dynamic is tough, but an any type dynamic is. Really communication period is always a tricky thing, but it's especially tough on that most intimate level.

I agree with you on the point you make about wanting to be challenged with your partner. That makes for a very dynamic and rewarding relationship.
 

sculpting

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See this an example of where the S automatically gets the bad trait, where an N gets the better, when both of them are Te/Fi...and both are prone to act the same in a Te/Fi manner, and where I see an N bias in the dynamic.

INTJs don't force- it's not their nature. If anything an INTJ will be indifferent, where an ISTJ will be bothered. Neither will say much of anything until it become a big deal.

A relationship can work if both parties are honest about self and the person they're with.

I rarely see ISTJs complain aobut the ENFPs. We're more likely to want to work it out.

Oh no my dear, I am not bashing the S at all. To be frank (if the INTJ isn't looking...;) ) I find ISTJs much easier than INTJs to interact with on a daily basis due to the shared Si/Ne. With my INTJ, by moving the relationship into a deeper realm, there has been significant work to try and understand how we each see the world with some occasional roadbumps as we discover then rediscover each other again. It is a fun dance.

But make no mistake, INTJs drive others around them to improve. ISTJs lead with Si, thus the goal, as I have read :) is to mold the world around them into what their Si view is. Typically this Si view is somewhat traditional and involves minimizing change. The INTJs actually are polar opposite in that they have an Ni vision of the way the world could be-and then drive everyone around them through critique to make that worldview true. My INTJ is particularly wonderful with lots of Fi, but many INTJs can be harsh critics and perfectionists and have a hard time being surrounded by those who choose not to self improve. Even the routine typology websites say this about INTJs-they turn their mates into self improvement projects.

I went to lunch with my entp married to an ISTJ and inquired in more depth and she said her ISTJ family members will try to hold others to their Si standards, but eventually they recognize others will fail and instead of driving them-they will accept them-likely the Ne extroverted flexibility there as opposed to the INTJ's Se which must be like the Ni vision I guess.

But honestly I utterly adore my ISTJ friends and if not happily emo over an INTJ would just as quickly date an ISTJ. I'd just be aware the dynamics will differ some and adapt as needed. I got my favorite ISTJ to admit he daydreams about unicorns and rainforrests during QA meetings. Not sure if he was lying or not, but it was very funny!

(Sorry, I dont know about your relationship history but you do seem quite adorable and funny!! Hugs!)
 

Zarathustra

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IZ, not to hark too much on a point that is already harked upon enough on this forum, but I think you're somewhat downplaying the S vs. N divide.

I say so as an INTJ whose two most significant romantic relationships have been with an ESFP and an ENFP.

Also, my dad is an ISTJ, and I have a significant fondness for most ISTJs I know (I'm not quite sure whether I think ENTJs or ISTJs are most similar to INTJs).

I went out with the ESFP for several years in my early-to-mid 20s, and had been close friends with her for five years before we ever hooked up, and the biggest obstacle to our communication -- and we all know how important communication is in a relationship -- was the N vs S divide. I didn't know this at the time, but I do now. I literally told her at one point: look, I love you, but I need someone who's more into intellectual pursuits, someone who has an interest in either high literature or philosophy. We kept going out for a long while after that conversation, and she did develop an interest in literature and philosophy (obviously partially for my sake, but she tells me that the interest still continues today), but, the truth is, I communicate in a very abstract manner, and she communicates in a very concrete manner. She used to listen to me go off on some abstract topic, and, when I'd finish, she'd kinda just look at me lost and say, "I love listening to you speak, but you totally lost me like five minutes ago." I loved her EFPness, but the S vs. N divide was definitely there.

Now I've been with an ENFP for almost a year, and there absolutely is no such problem. We're able to have awesome abstract conversations, and I feel like she's able to keep up with me more than most anybody I've ever known my entire life.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't pros to the ESFP relationship, and cons to the ENFP relationship, just as there would be pros to an ISTJ-ENFP relationship and cons to an ISTJ-ESFP relationship, and its up to the partners in those relationship to weigh whether the pros and cons of one outweigh the pros and cons of the other, but I do think that the N vs. S communication divide is an almost ever-present issue in INTJ-ESFP and ISTJ-ENFP relationships, as communication is so central to relationships, and thus the ITJ-EFP dynamic will tend to work better when each partner shares a preferred style of perceiving the world...

Sorry if this doesn't exactly fit the question you were asking, but, considering its highly related to the topic of ISTJ-ENFP relationships, I figured it would still be relevant.
 

IZthe411

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Alright Z and Orobas, thanks for your input.
.....................

So how do you explain my desire to improve and to be improved by those around me, wanting both and still be an ISTJ? I'm not one to force people into my perspective. I welcome different perspectives, with neither having to hold your view as gospel, but look for a way to make things work. I will say that I need to feel trust that the person has my best interests, and that's by action more than it is just saying it.

Let me ask this then....if your ISTJ (or S, whatever) can keep up and follow where you are going, but maybe that's just not their mode of communication- what does that mean to you? Like they can understand Your French but their preference is to speak German or something like that. While I fit the ISTJ stereotype more than I do INTJ- I see strong similarities. I just don't feel like the barrier between me and you is so different that I couldn't make a relationship work with a person. I've NEVER had the problem.

I'm feeling this youngbuck- this ENXJ chick I know too. If she wasn't only 21..........She's definitely abstract but we get along so well- and she's gorgeous. I wish she had a clone at least 6 years older.
 
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