• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ENFP] ENFPs and Being Controlling

Amethyst

¡MI TORTA!
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
2,191
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Are ENFPs even known to be controlling?

My mother is an ENFP, and I have heard so many times that she is one of the most controlling people they have ever met...some people mistake her for being mean because of it. I've met only one other ENFP who is also somewhat like this.

I almost doubt that they're ENFPs, they seem like they have way more Te than they need/can handle.

So, to ENFPs, do you find yourself to be overly controlling at times, or not at all?
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
I can be. I am an enneagram type 8, which centers around control. But.. my controlling aspects of my life come entirely from within, as in, I need control over MY life. I really don't need control over anyone else's life, decisions, etc. I can barely handle myself, moreless someone else.

To give an example: I am very restrictive on myself.. but I would never tell anyone I cared about to do things my way. I get no pleasure or happiness from controling or babysitting or watching over others. I like to treat people like adults, even sometimes before they even are truly adults.. and I enjoy it when I get that treatment back. My controlling behavior only pertains to me.

Though.. anyone who wanted to date me would have to fully understand that too. I don't tell other people not to display their affections in public, they can do it all day long in the nude in the middle of the day for all I care. But I'm not going to kiss all over you, and hug you and skip down the yellow brick road with "I <3 LOIS" t-shirts anytime soon. That's just part of my restrictive behavior. Don't like it? That's cool, you don't have to. Can't handle that in a relationship? You're probably not the one for me.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I hate controlling others or being controlled. But Te is really hard to wave about in a precise way, I find, especially when it comes to people. It's why I've refused for so long to use it. I try to develop it now...away from people :peepwall:
 

niffer

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,217
MBTI Type
ENfP
Enneagram
8w9
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I can be. I am an enneagram type 8, which centers around control. But.. my controlling aspects of my life come entirely from within, as in, I need control over MY life. I really don't need control over anyone else's life, decisions, etc. I can barely handle myself, moreless someone else.

To give an example: I am very restrictive on myself.. but I would never tell anyone I cared about to do things my way. I get no pleasure or happiness from controling or babysitting or watching over others. I like to treat people like adults, even sometimes before they even are truly adults.. and I enjoy it when I get that treatment back. My controlling behavior only pertains to me.

I'm an enneagram type 8 too (8w9), and I strongly relate lol. I absolutely can't stand the feeling of being out of control of myself, especially in terms of others controlling me. I will do anything for another person, as long as they word it in a way that seems like they're asking me to do it out of my own will, rather than ordering me to go do it. I expect others to treat me this way because I treat others with immediate respect and never try to control or demand anything out of them or the environment around me. I already blast my personality around everywhere, so I don't need to do that and be controlling at the same time. :D I prefer to "show" others how to behave and exude my deserving-of-respect-ness rather than "tell" them what to do. Even if it it's in the case of children, I always just say to them that I'd like to see them behave in x way, and make sure they understand why. But if they still don't do something I won't force them... I'll be firm and show them the consequences of their behaviour but I'll just make do using my own means.

I always thought my ESxJ mother was a control freak, especially when I was younger - hence my hatred of others trying to exert control/dominance over me and my reluctance to inhibit others or make them feel bad for the way they think or act just because I want them to. Then again, that opinion is shared by my father, as well as everyone else that knows my mother. But maybe thinking this way is somewhat more of a common mother/child thing. It may be common to see your mother as a controlling figure. All I know is that I had to fight harder than most I know to gain freedom while living under the same roof.
 

Malkavia

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
289
MBTI Type
ENXP
Enneagram
3w4
I'm not an enneagram 8 but can relate to what others have said.

I need to be in control of MY life, however, it goes against by personal values to try and control someone else.

So yes, controlling, but maybe not in the sense you were thinking.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
I'm an enneagram type 8 too (8w9), and I strongly relate lol. I absolutely can't stand the feeling of being out of control of myself, especially in terms of others controlling me. I will do anything for another person, as long as they word it in a way that seems like they're asking me to do it out of my own will, rather than ordering me to go do it. I expect others to treat me this way because I treat others with immediate respect and never try to control or demand anything out of them or the environment around me. I already blast my personality around everywhere, so I don't need to do that and be controlling at the same time. :D I prefer to "show" others how to behave and exude my deserving-of-respect-ness rather than "tell" them what to do. Even if it it's in the case of children, I always just say to them that I'd like to see them behave in x way, and make sure they understand why. But if they still don't do something I won't force them... I'll be firm and show them the consequences of their behaviour but I'll just make do using my own means.

I always thought my ESxJ mother was a control freak, especially when I was younger - hence my hatred of others trying to exert control/dominance over me and my reluctance to inhibit others or make them feel bad for the way they think or act just because I want them to. Then again, that opinion is shared by my father, as well as everyone else that knows my mother. But maybe thinking this way is somewhat more of a common mother/child thing. It may be common to see your mother as a controlling figure. All I know is that I had to fight harder than most I know to gain freedom while living under the same roof.

I'm a 8w7, and I share a lot of those sentiments, and also had a very controlling mother.

I hate controlling other people though. I want to have no influence in their decisions. But I do try and challenge people a lot, sometimes. I like to help others become better. An ENFP would classically do this by inspiring. I see that in myself too, but I couple it with challenging people.


But yes, I'm terribly scared of losing control over my own life. Which is funny considering I always had little control over it anyway...
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
As the others have mentioned, I seek to be in control over my own life. It is way to protect myself emotionally. I can be extremely independent as a result.

Keep in mind though that TeSi = a baby ESTJ in our basement. It serves as the "Middle manager of Fi" around us. At the worst we do the stupid things ESTJs do at age ten that piss everyone off.

Very unhealthy, under stress ENFP control behaviors:

I have been watching several older ENFPs in the workplace and when placed under moderate to severe stress, they can quickly revert to being extremely direct or make snap judgments about logistical (ie control) issues to minimize uncertainty, as uncertainty equates to change and change in the past is typically painful via an FiSi loop.

As an example, I work with an ENFP who is in a Manufacturing area. She is under stress and has attached Fi values to the way she does her job. It must be done a certain way, not just because it is the correct or logical way....but because it is the RIGHT way via Fi and responds with very controlling actions as a result

Another ENFP I work with was going to refrain from releasing a software patch as "I dont trust our software group". I dont trust our software group either, but that doesnt mean the software patch should be held in check. I explained what an FiSi loop was to her, and that she was clinging tightly to the status quo in order to prevent change, as change can be so very painful in our workplace. Things had been changing too fast with too much pain on other groups and as a result she was in survival mode. She chilled out and released the patch for better or worse.

Another ENFP-is actually an ENFP with fairly weak Te. She appears very soft at first and affirming. However when placed under stress she has become exceedingly controlling of her subordinates who threaten her position. She has fired two people who were more skilled than her and snapped on an ENFP man about when and how he scheduled his trips-after giving him permission two weeks before to schedule trips. Again, a fear of change under stress, leading to trying to control others to protect herself.

These are all fairly unhealthy examples under large amounts of stress. When in healthy places, I have seen several ENFP COOs who were very good. We have a knack for Operations and Marketing, as Te gives us some structure, but Ne gives us flexibility. The Fi allows us to understand the innate people factors of organizational dynamics. Combined we can grok complex systems and identofy problem areas from a very high level, even if we dont understand the Ti details of a system.


More Moderate in the moment stress:


It can be hard to pay attention to details around us. I find I can get a bit snappy if pulled into Se land when I am trying hard to focus on something. This looks like snappy behavior, our even cranky controlling behavior. I must admit my kids can be the worst about this.

Because it is so hard to organize, if others around us mess with something we have organized-again we can be a bit cranky.

Never back an enfp into an emotional corner. If they are overly emotive and you keep pressing you risk a bitchslap.

COMMUNICATION: !!!!!!!!!!

This is a tricky one. Since you are Ti/Fe, many things she does will be either bizarre or offensive, not due to her or you being wrong/right or her seeking to control, but due to linguistic diffs in how you communicate knowledge and emotions, and how you might seek to help others around you.

She will offend your Ti due to the abrupt, pointed, absolute Te way she states things. "This IS That." Then when given new data, she will change her mind, yet be absolutely right again. Then when given more new data, well, look she is right again. The other Te users do this too, but since the ENFP is always perceiving via Ne , the models are constantly being updated-thus we are really quick about it changing the data-yet always sound like we are RIGHT. My ENTP wants to kill enfps over this one. She says it is hideously offensive, as , since she is a Ti user, the RIGHT answer is never really known, thus should never be presented verbally as REALLY known. The more stressed or trying to focus the ENFP is, the more abrupt and stilted the speech, especially written, will be. Te requires extra energy, so we hop in long enough to finish the task-compile a stilted, abrupt response, then hop out again.

What you may also observe is you tell her about soemthing you are dealing with and she goes "well I once did X, and Ionce did Y, and I once felt this, and I once felt that" followed by "You should do X, Y, and Z." It sounds first selfish, then second commanding and controlling.

In reality, it is really meant to be "I hear and understand your situation and I want to share that I once felt something this myself, so you are not alone in your frustration, greif, confusion etc. All of your feelings and thoughts are perfectly valid and acceptable and it is okay and you are an awesome person and there is nothing wrong with you or what you feel" then "Based upon what I understand from my past, what I understand of your situation, and from others situations, there are tons of things that may help you, if they are of value, but they are only suggestions. You might first try X, Y, Z......."

Since she is your mom, she loves you, and has a value is trying to do the best she can for you-thus potentially pushing those suggestions more strongly-not understanding that your entire perceptional/judging framework for all intents is in another universe from hers.

Also be exceptionally careful regarding to try and predict her motives and intent. It is highly likely you will read into her actions and words.
 

alexx

New member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
503
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
2w1
As I've gotten older I feel the need to have order in my life, I don't think that is what you are asking. I cannot stand being controlled or controlling others, they are equally distasteful.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
COMMUNICATION: !!!!!!!!!!

This is a tricky one. Since you are Ti/Fe, many things she does will be either bizarre or offensive, not due to her or you being wrong/right or her seeking to control, but due to linguistic diffs in how you communicate knowledge and emotions, and how you might seek to help others around you.

She will offend your Ti due to the abrupt, pointed, absolute Te way she states things. "This IS That." Then when given new data, she will change her mind, yet be absolutely right again. Then when given more new data, well, look she is right again. The other Te users do this too, but since the ENFP is always perceiving via Ne , the models are constantly being updated-thus we are really quick about it changing the data-yet always sound like we are RIGHT. My ENTP wants to kill enfps over this one. She says it is hideously offensive, as , since she is a Ti user, the RIGHT answer is never really known, thus should never be presented verbally as REALLY known. The more stressed or trying to focus the ENFP is, the more abrupt and stilted the speech, especially written, will be. Te requires extra energy, so we hop in long enough to finish the task-compile a stilted, abrupt response, then hop out again.

What you may also observe is you tell her about soemthing you are dealing with and she goes "well I once did X, and Ionce did Y, and I once felt this, and I once felt that" followed by "You should do X, Y, and Z." It sounds first selfish, then second commanding and controlling.

In reality, it is really meant to be "I hear and understand your situation and I want to share that I once felt something this myself, so you are not alone in your frustration, greif, confusion etc. All of your feelings and thoughts are perfectly valid and acceptable and it is okay and you are an awesome person and there is nothing wrong with you or what you feel" then "Based upon what I understand from my past, what I understand of your situation, and from others situations, there are tons of things that may help you, if they are of value, but they are only suggestions. You might first try X, Y, Z......."

Since she is your mom, she loves you, and has a value is trying to do the best she can for you-thus potentially pushing those suggestions more strongly-not understanding that your entire perceptional/judging framework for all intents is in another universe from hers.

Also be exceptionally careful regarding to try and predict her motives and intent. It is highly likely you will read into her actions and words.

Wow! This has got to be the post of the year for me. I think this is EXACTLY what is going on between me and some of the Fe/Ti users on this forum. Thank you Orobas. Thank you.
 

Amethyst

¡MI TORTA!
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
2,191
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
As the others have mentioned, I seek to be in control over my own life. It is way to protect myself emotionally. I can be extremely independent as a result.

Keep in mind though that TeSi = a baby ESTJ in our basement. It serves as the "Middle manager of Fi" around us. At the worst we do the stupid things ESTJs do at age ten that piss everyone off.

Very unhealthy, under stress ENFP control behaviors:

I have been watching several older ENFPs in the workplace and when placed under moderate to severe stress, they can quickly revert to being extremely direct or make snap judgments about logistical (ie control) issues to minimize uncertainty, as uncertainty equates to change and change in the past is typically painful via an FiSi loop.

As an example, I work with an ENFP who is in a Manufacturing area. She is under stress and has attached Fi values to the way she does her job. It must be done a certain way, not just because it is the correct or logical way....but because it is the RIGHT way via Fi and responds with very controlling actions as a result

Another ENFP I work with was going to refrain from releasing a software patch as "I dont trust our software group". I dont trust our software group either, but that doesnt mean the software patch should be held in check. I explained what an FiSi loop was to her, and that she was clinging tightly to the status quo in order to prevent change, as change can be so very painful in our workplace. Things had been changing too fast with too much pain on other groups and as a result she was in survival mode. She chilled out and released the patch for better or worse.

Another ENFP-is actually an ENFP with fairly weak Te. She appears very soft at first and affirming. However when placed under stress she has become exceedingly controlling of her subordinates who threaten her position. She has fired two people who were more skilled than her and snapped on an ENFP man about when and how he scheduled his trips-after giving him permission two weeks before to schedule trips. Again, a fear of change under stress, leading to trying to control others to protect herself.

These are all fairly unhealthy examples under large amounts of stress. When in healthy places, I have seen several ENFP COOs who were very good. We have a knack for Operations and Marketing, as Te gives us some structure, but Ne gives us flexibility. The Fi allows us to understand the innate people factors of organizational dynamics. Combined we can grok complex systems and identofy problem areas from a very high level, even if we dont understand the Ti details of a system.


More Moderate in the moment stress:


It can be hard to pay attention to details around us. I find I can get a bit snappy if pulled into Se land when I am trying hard to focus on something. This looks like snappy behavior, our even cranky controlling behavior. I must admit my kids can be the worst about this.

Because it is so hard to organize, if others around us mess with something we have organized-again we can be a bit cranky.

Never back an enfp into an emotional corner. If they are overly emotive and you keep pressing you risk a bitchslap.

COMMUNICATION: !!!!!!!!!!

This is a tricky one. Since you are Ti/Fe, many things she does will be either bizarre or offensive, not due to her or you being wrong/right or her seeking to control, but due to linguistic diffs in how you communicate knowledge and emotions, and how you might seek to help others around you.

She will offend your Ti due to the abrupt, pointed, absolute Te way she states things. "This IS That." Then when given new data, she will change her mind, yet be absolutely right again. Then when given more new data, well, look she is right again. The other Te users do this too, but since the ENFP is always perceiving via Ne , the models are constantly being updated-thus we are really quick about it changing the data-yet always sound like we are RIGHT. My ENTP wants to kill enfps over this one. She says it is hideously offensive, as , since she is a Ti user, the RIGHT answer is never really known, thus should never be presented verbally as REALLY known. The more stressed or trying to focus the ENFP is, the more abrupt and stilted the speech, especially written, will be. Te requires extra energy, so we hop in long enough to finish the task-compile a stilted, abrupt response, then hop out again.

What you may also observe is you tell her about soemthing you are dealing with and she goes "well I once did X, and Ionce did Y, and I once felt this, and I once felt that" followed by "You should do X, Y, and Z." It sounds first selfish, then second commanding and controlling.

In reality, it is really meant to be "I hear and understand your situation and I want to share that I once felt something this myself, so you are not alone in your frustration, greif, confusion etc. All of your feelings and thoughts are perfectly valid and acceptable and it is okay and you are an awesome person and there is nothing wrong with you or what you feel" then "Based upon what I understand from my past, what I understand of your situation, and from others situations, there are tons of things that may help you, if they are of value, but they are only suggestions. You might first try X, Y, Z......."

Since she is your mom, she loves you, and has a value is trying to do the best she can for you-thus potentially pushing those suggestions more strongly-not understanding that your entire perceptional/judging framework for all intents is in another universe from hers.

Also be exceptionally careful regarding to try and predict her motives and intent. It is highly likely you will read into her actions and words.

Wow, nice! :thumbup:

I agree with the communication differences, and how it can cause us to disagree, but (this may also sound controlling, but I don't want it to be) how could I help her change how she communicates with me so there are less and less misinterpretations between us, so that she can say what she meant to say in the first place, and vice versa with me communicating with her?
 

digesthisickness

✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,248
MBTI Type
ENTP
My ENTP wants to kill enfps over this one. She says it is hideously offensive, as , since she is a Ti user, the RIGHT answer is never really known, thus should never be presented verbally as REALLY known.

heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
Wow! This has got to be the post of the year for me. I think this is EXACTLY what is going on between me and some of the Fe/Ti users on this forum. Thank you Orobas. Thank you.

Still collecting more data! This is so incomplete.

Wow, nice! :thumbup:

I agree with the communication differences, and how it can cause us to disagree, but (this may also sound controlling, but I don't want it to be) how could I help her change how she communicates with me so there are less and less misinterpretations between us, so that she can say what she meant to say in the first place, and vice versa with me communicating with her?

Back in your OP, you asked if the ENFPs had "too much Te to handle". There may be a bit of value to replace that with "Does an EXTP have too much Fe to handle?" In both cases, we are wielding tert functions that are rather unsophisticated in nature, poorly developed, poorly refined. Yet we wield them at each other like wooden clubs. We can use them abusively on each other.

Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier.

Communication is a two way street-the burden of being understood lies on both sides. Since you are here, you automatically have a leg up on her in altering your own expectations to try and reinterrpret what she is saying-understanding it may grate terribly on your nerves, but also understanding the intent behind what she is saying doesnt match to what you are hearing. Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.

Things to tell her:

1. Mom, I dont feel like you are listening to me. Send her a link about active listening. Ask her to refrain from a conclusion, and instead listen and question about specific details.
2. Turn it into a faux Fi statement-Mom, I have my own thoughts, values and ideas about how I want to live my life. I appreciate hearing what you think, but I would really rather be alone with my feelings. I need to figure this out on my own. (Notice all of those "I"s) You might try responding in a very direct pointed Te manner-"I need you to X, Y, and Z")

I will think upon this and see if I can come up with more stuff...so much of this is so autopilot innate. Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...





heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.

Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.

I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.

With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
Wow! This has got to be the post of the year for me. I think this is EXACTLY what is going on between me and some of the Fe/Ti users on this forum. Thank you Orobas. Thank you.

Still collecting more data! This is so incomplete.

Wow, nice! :thumbup:

I agree with the communication differences, and how it can cause us to disagree, but (this may also sound controlling, but I don't want it to be) how could I help her change how she communicates with me so there are less and less misinterpretations between us, so that she can say what she meant to say in the first place, and vice versa with me communicating with her?

Back in your OP, you asked if the ENFPs had "too much Te to handle". There may be a bit of value to replace that with "Does an EXTP have too much Fe to handle?" In both cases, we are wielding tert functions that are rather unsophisticated in nature, poorly developed, poorly refined. Yet we wield them at each other like wooden clubs. We can use them abusively on each other.

Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier.

Communication is a two way street-the burden of being understood lies on both sides. Since you are here, you automatically have a leg up on her in altering your own expectations to try and reinterrpret what she is saying-understanding it may grate terribly on your nerves, but also understanding the intent behind what she is saying doesnt match to what you are hearing. Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.

Things to tell her:

1. Mom, I dont feel like you are listening to me. Send her a link about active listening. Ask her to refrain from a conclusion, and instead listen and question about specific details.
2. Turn it into a faux Fi statement-Mom, I have my own thoughts, values and ideas about how I want to live my life. I appreciate hearing what you think, but I would really rather be alone with my feelings. I need to figure this out on my own. (Notice all of those "I"s) You might try responding in a very direct pointed Te manner-"I need you to X, Y, and Z")

I will think upon this and see if I can come up with more stuff...so much of this is so autopilot innate. Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...





heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.

Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.

I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.

With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
wow, i laughed at the title of this thread. me? controlling? usually, i hate the idea of people controlling one another. but... haha well.

tawanda can you give some examples with your mom? maybe we can help interpret and address them.

anyway, i had two main thoughts...

1. Ti and Fi really don't like one another. i find the INTPs in my family ridiculously controlling about dumb things i don't care about (how i "ought" to play the video game, why the way i have the lights in the room is wrong, etc.), and they find me ridiculously controlling about dumb things (why they shouldn't play their music so loud when others are around, why they're being "mean", etc.) too. we each think we see what's "really" important and it seems like the other person is completely blind to it, and we feel like we ought to be instructing them in it. so then, for instance, if the Ti type tries to instruct the ENFP in Ti via Fe, it totally backfires, because the ENFP instead thinks what's important is Fi and communicates that via Te. or vice versa. it's like total system failure. and the other side always ends up coming off as pedantic, regardless of which side of it you're on, because it seems like they don't get it but obviously they think they do...

2. like others have pointed out, when i'm either REALLY stressed out or i feel like someone has flown far beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable, i will become pretty controlling. it's entirely Te. i had to explain to my brother (INTP) at one point, when he was freaked out about me yelling at him, was that the whole point of me "blowing up" was to get him out of my face. it's entirely defensive, never an attack. so it doesn't really feel like control to me, you know? because the intention is not to direct; it's to protect. it's not preemptive, so i don't feel like i'm infringing, or like it's uncalled for. what it does feel like to me, is my right to protect myself, or someone else, when someone has done something that is infringing upon me or them in a harmful way.

Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier. [...] Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.

actually, i dunno, i think it will get better as an ExTP's Fe is refined and an ENFP's Te is refined. i totally agree about just coming at it from an angle of being ready to be offended, though. that's how i often have to communicate with the INTPs in my family. we have a lot of misunderstandings, though it's been better since i've learned some strategies thanks to typology.

[...] Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...[/quote]

^ yeah, and it's kinda frustrating. the Fe/Ti user expects you to get it logically right and cordial the first time you speak and you don't, and then they get pissed. and you're like JUST WAIT A SECOND WHILE I FIGURE OUT WHAT I MEAN. :sad:
 

phoenix13

New member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
1,293
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
Are ENFPs even known to be controlling?

My mother is an ENFP, and I have heard so many times that she is one of the most controlling people they have ever met...some people mistake her for being mean because of it. I've met only one other ENFP who is also somewhat like this.

I almost doubt that they're ENFPs, they seem like they have way more Te than they need/can handle.

So, to ENFPs, do you find yourself to be overly controlling at times, or not at all?

No.

but I'm sure that in the right circumstances an ENFP would be controlling, as would be an ENFJ, ENTP, ENTJ, INTP, INTJ, ESFP, ESTJ, ESFJ, INFJ, INFP, ISFP,...
 

digesthisickness

✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,248
MBTI Type
ENTP
firstly, i think it's important that i emphasize that it's not only the action of stating something that way, but it would have to be done in a way that it would drive me nuts. for instance, saying something as if it's factual but then sticking to it no matter what proves it otherwise, and/or refusing to answer when asked for proof to back it up. and, instead, attempting to distract with something else, just repeating it again as if that will make it true, etc.

also, i don't see something like that controlling unless used in that context. meaning, just saying 1 + 1 = 2 won't send me over, but saying, "blondes always cheat" without giving me any idea where that came from, would irritate the shit out of me. but, only if i couldn't get away from them, say, if they lived with me, or something, and i had to hear their crap all of the time.

Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.

what i mentioned above would bother me no matter the type, but my guess would be that it could be the fact that a NF usually uses a different form of communication than a NT, and so that coupled with the above that i mentioned, could probably add up to that conclusion for your friend.

I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.

i speak as someone who has only knowingly known ENFPs online. but, from what i've noticed, they'd be harder to ignore than other types who do this. and, ignoring is a big NT defense mechanism. if we can't use it, then frustration sets in quickly.

With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.

you're right, it doesn't, but again, things can be ignored unless someone's Fi won't allow it to be ignored. regarding rudeness, it would take a lot of rude to get to me. more probable that it would annoy the crap out of me if the person were stating the "fact" to someone else who would believe it without question.

that would cause me to be unable to ignore.

feeling controlled by an ENFP though? no, unless maybe it was a romantic relationship. i'd be put in a position of being unable to defend myself against their "facts", and that would cause big blow-ups and probably a quick break-up.

that said, i can easily see how others could feel that way if the contexts happened to be as i've stated.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
was that the whole point of me "blowing up" was to get him out of my face. it's entirely defensive, never an attack. so it doesn't really feel like control to me, you know? because the intention is not to direct; it's to protect. it's not preemptive, so i don't feel like i'm infringing, or like it's uncalled for. what it does feel like to me, is my right to protect myself, or someone else, when someone has done something that is infringing upon me or them in a harmful wa

Lol, no offense, but I just had to comment on this, because a thought immediately crossed my mind when reading it : ENFPs will never accept responsibility for anything!!!! They will use all their BS to twist something they shouldn't have done into the mandatory reaction to something lol.


We really have big egos. The weird part is that we don't even realize or admit it most of the time.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
With respect to control....after thinking a bit, i realized I have no problem at all delegating and managing the actions of others in a leadership or group situation. In a vacuum I naturally step up and start direction the ACTIONS of others. What I utterly abhor is controlling their emotions, feelings, and values. If I asked them to perform an action and it violated a value-I would stop discuss the situation and reframe or change plans so that it didnt make them uncomfortable.

Lol, no offense, but I just had to comment on this, because a thought immediately crossed my mind when reading it : ENFPs will never accept responsibility for anything!!!! They will use all their BS to twist something they shouldn't have done into the mandatory reaction to something lol.


We really have big egos. The weird part is that we don't even realize or admit it most of the time.

Be cautious here.

Tert Te in EXFPs can be used to rationalize our own behavior-and justify our sometimes irrational Fi. I actually see this more in ESFPs, but yeah, we can totally do this.

Or-as skylights is doing-we will use Te after the fact to dissect a situation, step by step, out loud. As we do so, it allows for contingency planning and recognition of the pattern of interactions so that we can understand what went wrong and how not to repeat again in the future.

This is not rationalization of why a behavior is okay, or making excuses...it is learning.

I actually tend to find that ENFPs are for too willing to accept blame, are far too willing to endlessly self question, and we tend to be very willing to admit we are the fucked up ones in a situation, and that we need to grow and change. There seems to be an almost masochistic desire for self growth and improvement.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
firstly, i think it's important that i emphasize that it's not only the action of stating something that way, but it would have to be done in a way that it would drive me nuts. for instance, saying something as if it's factual but then sticking to it no matter what proves it otherwise, and/or refusing to answer when asked for proof to back it up. and, instead, attempting to distract with something else, just repeating it again as if that will make it true, etc.

also, i don't see something like that controlling unless used in that context. meaning, just saying 1 + 1 = 2 won't send me over, but saying, "blondes always cheat" without giving me any idea where that came from, would irritate the shit out of me. but, only if i couldn't get away from them, say, if they lived with me, or something, and i had to hear their crap all of the time.

Distance makes the heart grow fonder, for sure.

So 1+1 = 2 is a Ti rule. Lets replace your other example with a rather odd, quite preliminary pattern I have observed: "ENTPs hate sticky surfaces". Note how absolute that sounds?

I would tend to state it factually-but in my head I recognize it is a generality, much like an MBTI description, thus I fully expect individuals will break the molds of the generalized pattern ... Thus really it should be stated as "Many of the ENTPs I have observed seem to really be bothered by sticky surfaces."

However the absoluteness of the first statement doesnt induce cognitive dissonance for me at all. I am perfectly content to build generalized patterns of human behavior, state them as such but have individuals not fit those patterns. Fi supplies a check and balance against Te. If I get enough people who break the pattern it gets discarded as not being a true generality anymore. I suspect this Human resource generalist approach is kinda what ENFPs are designed to do-but it is highly offensive to the Ti approach that an NTP or INFJ would take to any sort of data.

If asked how I reached the conclusion, I could describe data sources but it would never, ever meet the Ti/Te requirement for data validity. This may be when you see the ENFPs just give up and find something else to talk about.

As you mention above-we can VERY tightly attach a value to the idea-if this happens, then yes, I have seen ENFPs discard logic and data and just keep insisting they are correct. The ENFPs have to unlearn this by detaching the idea from the value....this can be hard at times and is hideously annoying.

The repeating of the idea is likely an attempt as Te-Te assertion-we want you to show us your idea and explain how ours is wrong perhaps....?? or we just cant understand the Ti perhaps...but yeah, I have seen this as well...

what i mentioned above would bother me no matter the type, but my guess would be that it could be the fact that a NF usually uses a different form of communication than a NT, and so that coupled with the above that i mentioned, could probably add up to that conclusion for your friend.

i speak as someone who has only knowingly known ENFPs online. but, from what i've noticed, they'd be harder to ignore than other types who do this. and, ignoring is a big NT defense mechanism. if we can't use it, then frustration sets in quickly.

That is a really great point-ignoring. I could see this going badly is the enfp is trying to externally Te the problem, when the NTP wants instead to step away...the enfp just keeps following.

more probable that it would annoy the crap out of me if the person were stating the "fact" to someone else who would believe it without question.

This is a REALLY interesting point. For me, if I present an idea, I always assume the other person will be capable of thinking through and evaluating it. Thus I would never not share an idea, even a total bullshit one. There is no danger or worry in my mind that an incorrect idea might take root. If it sucks, the idea will be dismantled and rebuilt, discarded, or might serve as a tidbit to give fruition to someone else's idea.

However I have ran into a few of INTPs and INFJs over the last few months who do exhibit concern. Simply by sharing the idea, it seems they cant assume the other person is actually able to think independently thus there is a sense of worry. Almost like the idea is a pathogen, and once released people will just believe it because it was spoken? I am seeing shades of this in your above quote as well.

I dont fully grasp this though...

Thanks for your observations digest, they are really quite awesome. These are areas where I think ENFPs can self-modify, but we have to understand what is off kilter first-thus external observations are appreciated.
 

digesthisickness

✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,248
MBTI Type
ENTP
you're quite welcome.

it is good to know that in an ENFPs mind (at least yours... see how i clarified that? :p), they're thinking in less absolutes than is actually being stated. it makes it easier to relax when speaking to one IF you know this. the problem is that if you don't, then all you have to go on is the statement, so it sounds as if the ENFP totally believes what they're saying is the absolute truth.

for instance, when first reading this, i thought you really meant that 'ENTP hates sticky surfaces' statement, and had come to my own conclusion before i'd even reached the next sentence. conclusion: god, i really do hate them.

point being though that i felt the need to argue it in my mind and check that 'fact' out with myself immediately.

whereas, i, am always aware that the other person is going to believe what comes out of my mouth as being true to me. which is why i even use that as a way to convince others of things or for some other reason.

i've panicked many times when hearing a parent tell a child something that i know isn't true. i've even panicked when hearing a child ask someone a question because i'm waiting for them to either be wrong OR not explain it in a way that the child will understand. meaning, they'll simply state the answer with no follow up or clarification.

when i speak, i try to expand on something if i think there's a chance the other may need it. BUT, i do just state bullshit theories on occasion just because, to me, they're the truest explanation handy. until, as you've said, more info comes in to change it. however, i'm always aware of what i'm doing and even COUNT on the other person believing i believe what i'm saying without doubting me.

needless to say, i mean i do this for a variety of reasons depending on context, but the fact remains the same.

experiment:

how would you feel/what would you think if you and some friends were watching a documentary about dinosaurs and you heard the narrator say, "this is the first mammal to have existed."?
 
Top