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[INFJ] INFJs: way too subtle, way too blunt?

SilkRoad

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Eclare mentioned in another thread that INFJs tend to be either extremely subtle, or extremely blunt. Perhaps even too subtle, or too blunt.

I thought this was really interesting and it does jive with my own experience of myself in many cases. And, I think, with my experience of other friends who are probably INFJ.

Most of the time I'd err on the "too subtle" side of things - again, probably like many/most INFJs. I tiptoe around people because I want to avoid the pain and conflict, and keep everyone happy. They tread on my sense of well-being in one way or another and I smile and say it's no big deal. Quite likely it is no big deal the first few times. Then when it keeps happening, it gets to be a big deal...a bigger and bigger one. Something along the lines of "surely they must have seen that this pains me. How can they be so inconsiderate and oblivious of my feelings?" But actually, most people are not mind readers. They are not THAT discerning. Whatever I'm trying to get across is just too subtle. Then eventually it all mounts up - and out comes the "too blunt" sledgehammer and I spell things out in unpleasant detail.

I would really like to know what others (INFJ or other types) think about this and how you might try to work on this.
 

Arclight

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This is not a phenomena limited to type. All of humanity sits on a sliding scale with Blunt and subtle at each extreme.
 

SilkRoad

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I'm sure some types are more or less inclined to be this way, though...
 

Arclight

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It's Possible Silk.. Some types might be more inclined towards one or the other.

But I myself walk around eggshells and then out of nowhere will swing the hammer when I have had enough.

I also make judgment calls with each person.. Some people subtlety doesn't work, Some people being blunt is about the worst approach you can take.

Some days it gets all twisted and the subtle person needs blunt.. and the blunt person needs subtlety.

Maybe I will just shut up now.
 

JoSunshine

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I briefly dated an INFJ who I felt was hesitent to express himself. I encouraged him to be more expressive of what he was thinking/feeling with me. So one day I was telling him a story and he interrupted me to say something to this effect, "I'm not interested in this story. You're rambling on and on. You could have told it in half the time and it's not even that funny." Then he told me that he was trying to do a better job of letting me know what he was thinking...:huh:

It wasn't exactly what I had in mind :laugh: but he was trying.
 

Tabula

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I definitely relate.

I feel like a broken record on this, but for the sake of clarity, I'll reiterate. I have no friends or relationships, and haven't in many years; I spend almost all of my time entirely alone. When in social situations, it is very easy to see how many different ways something someone says/does can be interpreted, and coupled with a lack of social experience (to discern which is the most probable) but still having a seemingly inborn desire to avoid conflict, it creates a problem. I was watching the TV show "Bones" the other night, and something Dr. Brennan said really resonated with me (I don't recall verbatim, but this was the gist) "There are so many ways to interpret what is said, so I find it safer [I don't think that was the exact word she used] to respond literally."

This is what I do. I respond literally IRL, so as to avoid making assumptions [but that definitely is not a reflection of what I'm thinking.] It comes off as "blunt."

Now, having said that, I can easily be just as subtle. I want to express what I'm thinking somehow, but want also to avoid jumping to conclusions and give the other the benefit of the doubt. How else could I do this but subtly? Of course, this is counter to what I intended, [avoiding misinterpretation] but, IME, it's so much more awkward to keep having to ask for clarification when you're having a light, social conversation with someone. They tend to think you're either stupid, or don't speak the language very well. Perhaps when I'm less insecure, I won't have a problem with others thinking I'm retarded.

This is probably a rather extreme example, but I think it fits.
 

eclare

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Arclight wrote:
It's Possible Silk.. Some types might be more inclined towards one or the other.

But I myself walk around eggshells and then out of nowhere will swing the hammer when I have had enough.

I also make judgment calls with each person.. Some people subtlety doesn't work, Some people being blunt is about the worst approach you can take.

Some days it gets all twisted and the subtle person needs blunt.. and the blunt person needs subtlety.

All of your points are well taken, and certainly all people will exhibit a spectrum of behaviors at any given point in time. But I believe Silk Road's point, if I may be so bold as to put words into her mouth, is that for INFJs it is a pattern so predictable that is almost pathological at times. It is only with a great deal of practice and self-awareness that an INFJ is likely to break this pattern.

Ironically, in my experience we are great mediators and can help two arguing people work things out by helping them communicate their thoughts in a way that is both frank and tactful. It is only when it comes to our own emotions that we have such a hard to communicating our true feelings, and it has little to do with our actual powers of communication and everything to do with our fear of coming across as too demanding or bad natured. At least that's the way it is in my case.
 

TheEmeraldCanopy

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Is it a cardinal sin to just outright ask an INFJ if the reason they are avoiding you is because they need space?

For the life of me, the INFJ desire for space and the door slam are two things I cannot really distinguish between, especially when that need for space is sometimes for months at a time. How is one to know which of the two are happening?
 

eclare

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Is it a cardinal sin to just outright ask an INFJ if the reason they are avoiding you is because they need space?

For the life of me, the INFJ desire for space and the door slam are two things I cannot really distinguish between, especially when that need for space is sometimes for months at a time. How is one to know which of the two are happening?


Hmmm....good question. I think you can always ask, and I think it will most likely be appreciated. It shows that you have an understanding of their needs, which most INFJs crave more than anything.

I guess it really is situational, but I don't know how someone looking at it from the other side would be able to tell without knowing a whole host of other details. I would say from my own point of view that if you have to ask, it's not a doorslam. Doorslams usually involve the words "please don't contact me again," or some variation. If they've just disapeared for awhile, they'll most likely find their way back in time. If they've done anything that seems out of character and even remotely hurtful, they've slammed the door.
 

mochajava

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eclare But I believe Silk Road's point, if I may be so bold as to put words into her mouth, is that for INFJs it is a pattern so predictable that is almost pathological at times. It is only with a great deal of practice and self-awareness that an INFJ is likely to break this pattern.

Exactly. INFJs dwell on the ends of this spectrum. We can tell what's going on with other people and how they're doing, so we expect the same to apply to us. It doesn't (I know this and I hate it).

eclare Ironically, in my experience we are great mediators and can help two arguing people work things out by helping them communicate their thoughts in a way that is both frank and tactful. It is only when it comes to our own emotions that we have such a hard to communicating our true feelings, and it has little to do with our actual powers of communication and everything to do with our fear of coming across as too demanding or bad natured. At least that's the way it is in my case.

This is ridiculously ON. Thank you, eclare!

TheEmeraldCanopy Is it a cardinal sin to just outright ask an INFJ if the reason they are avoiding you is because they need space?

For the life of me, the INFJ desire for space and the door slam are two things I cannot really distinguish between, especially when that need for space is sometimes for months at a time. How is one to know which of the two are happening?

By all means, ask! Maybe do it via writing so that they can think about it and write back to you, but please please please ask! It shows you understand/care, and isn't that what we all really want from our friends? (INFJs, everyone, me, whatever -- not sure how generalizeable that statement is)

eclare agrees, see:
I think you can always ask, and I think it will most likely be appreciated. It shows that you have an understanding of their needs, which most INFJs crave more than anything.

Silk -- you always start such great threads! I think we have a lot of similarities IRL...due to type or beyond, I don't know. But thank you :)
 
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TheEmeraldCanopy

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Hmmm....good question. I think you can always ask, and I think it will most likely be appreciated. It shows that you have an understanding of their needs, which most INFJs crave more than anything.

I guess it really is situational, but I don't know how someone looking at it from the other side would be able to tell without knowing a whole host of other details. I would say from my own point of view that if you have to ask, it's not a doorslam. Doorslams usually involve the words "please don't contact me again," or some variation. If they've just disapeared for awhile, they'll most likely find their way back in time. If they've done anything that seems out of character and even remotely hurtful, they've slammed the door.

Is it always commenced verbally or indicated in some way as it's happening? Or does it sometimes just happen without warning?

If someone was to confront the INFJ about the doorslam, would the INFJ be willing to discuss it or confirm that it did indeed happen? Or generally no?
 

SilkRoad

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Ironically, in my experience we are great mediators and can help two arguing people work things out by helping them communicate their thoughts in a way that is both frank and tactful. It is only when it comes to our own emotions that we have such a hard to communicating our true feelings, and it has little to do with our actual powers of communication and everything to do with our fear of coming across as too demanding or bad natured. At least that's the way it is in my case.

Yes, absolutely. I think it's like taking diplomacy to an extreme. I think a classic INFJ is an extremely good mediator and diplomat. To be perfectly honest, I think it's one of the things I excel at - one of the few things I might sometimes blow my own trumpet about ;)

But then...sometimes it can cause damage to the relationships we care the most about. I think the too subtle > too blunt thing is by far the most likely to happen with someone you care deeply about. You want them so badly to understand you, so you figure they must pick up on those ridiculously subtle hints and messages. You also don't want to hurt their feelings or put strain on the relationship or make them think you're neurotic or demanding, or or or... And finally it's all too much. Then bam. Bluntness to the max.
 

eclare

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Is it always commenced verbally or indicated in some way as it's happening? Or does it sometimes just happen without warning?

If someone was to confront the INFJ about the doorslam, would the INFJ be willing to discuss it or confirm that it did indeed happen? Or generally no?

In my experience, an INFJ is going to be most comfortable conveying this information in writing. We are way more comfortable expressing our emotions in writing because while I think we can identify emotions very quickly, it takes awhile to figure out exactly how to express them to other people. Also, we don't make these kinds of decisions lightly, so we often need to write out our thoughts in order to examine them more closely - almost like a list of pros and cons. "Why do I want this person in my life vs. Why do I want them out of my life." We are emotional people, but we take a very intellectual and pragmatic approach to our own emotions.

Thinking back on my prior answer, I actually don't think that the distinction between the doorslam and needing space is that well defined. What often happens is that we slam the door for a period of time, often months or longer, in order to give ourselves the opportunity to process and grieve. Then, after a few months, once we've been able to do that, we may very well be willing and able to enter back into a renewed frienship. I think to the other person it may seem like we're doing a complete 180, but I think we need time to figure out how to adjust our expectations of the other person and once we've done that we can appreciate what the other has to offer.

Here's an example. In college I had a good friend that I would basically talk to or IM with every day for at least an hour or more. We became more and more flirtatious over time and after several months we finally got together. The relationship was insanely brief, and after only a few weeks he broke it off, telling me that he just couldn't think of me romantically, blah blah blah. For a couple weeks I tried to be mature about it and remain "friends" with him, but finally the pain of his cluelessness was just too much so I emailed him and told him that I basically never wanted to speak to him again. And for about six months, there was absolutely no contact between us whatsoever. Finally one day, I was procrastinating at the library and I just thought "I wonder what J is up to." So, I sent him an email saying I was done being mad and did he want to grab lunch.

He was pretty taken aback, but we actually fell pretty easily into a new dynamic, and to this day - 10 years later - he remains one of my best friends.

So, to answer your more immediate question, confronting an INFJ about their doorslam when they're not ready to talk to you will probably give you an answer, but it won't be very satisfying. They would have to be self-aware enough to really understand what the doorslam is, first of all, and even if they do they will likely just say "Yes. I'm sorry. I don't want to talk to you anymore for the reasons I've already given." If you wait long enough and the INFJ has cooled down sufficiently, they probably will be able to talk about it in more detail. But I think you're best bet when you're faced with that situation would be let them know that you understand how that feel, and that they need time away from you, but that you really value them and you hope that you can work things out in the future. But do NOT ever push an INFJ to reconcile before they are ready. Always let them make the first move, otherwise we will become resentful and much less likely to ever get over it.

I hope this is helpful.
 

Fidelia

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I think eclare and Silkroad nailed it - INFJs do care very deeply about those close to them and how they are perceived by those people. They don't want to be whiny or demanding. They distrust fickle emotions that may vary and change depending on perspective, tiredness, information, annoyance, frustration and so on. In ignoring those small individual emotions and trying to meet others more than halfway, I think it is sometimes easy for us to have a bigger underlying tidal wave slowly creep up on us. We aren't aware of how much all those frustrations affect our overall feeling until we are overtaken by the enormity of it.
 

Vasilisa

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But then...sometimes it can cause damage to the relationships we care the most about. I think the too subtle > too blunt thing is by far the most likely to happen with someone you care deeply about. You want them so badly to understand you, so you figure they must pick up on those ridiculously subtle hints and messages. You also don't want to hurt their feelings or put strain on the relationship or make them think you're neurotic or demanding, or or or... And finally it's all too much. Then bam. Bluntness to the max.
I have felt and written about this, too. The dissatisfaction from desperately wanting (expecting?) people to operate the way that I do: to decipher the code and offer up that understanding that the other craves. (presumption? :rolleyes:)
I want people to reach me, but they can't really. I want them to give me what I need instead of what they need. But now I realize that is kind of impossible for them to know, and I'm not sure I can even say what that is.

If this is akin to what the others are experiencing, then it would seem that way lies only frustration, hence the blunt outbursts described.

In my personal case, I recognize that it is unwise to cling to the expectation. I'm working on realizing why I have these feelings and what is behind my personal paradox of longing to be known yet being so difficult to know.
 

SilkRoad

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In my experience, an INFJ is going to be most comfortable conveying this information in writing. We are way more comfortable expressing our emotions in writing because while I think we can identify emotions very quickly, it takes awhile to figure out exactly how to express them to other people. Also, we don't make these kinds of decisions lightly, so we often need to write out our thoughts in order to examine them more closely - almost like a list of pros and cons. "Why do I want this person in my life vs. Why do I want them out of my life." We are emotional people, but we take a very intellectual and pragmatic approach to our own emotions.

Pragmatic approach to our emotions - yes! It can be very frustrating though. There have been times in my life where I have been in utter emotional turmoil. Someone has really hurt me - but intellectually I'm able to enumerate in an almost cold point by point way why it happened, how it happened, how this person is bad for me, etc etc. Yet, emotionally I'm still a mess - I wish I could actually CONTROL the emotions with the pragmatism! Sometimes I think the intellect and the emotions are like beach balls bouncing off in different directions.
 

SilkRoad

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In my personal case, I recognize that it is unwise to cling to the expectation. I'm working on realizing why I have these feelings and what is behind my personal paradox of longing to be known yet being so difficult to know.

Yes.

Whether or not INFJs are the desperately complex creatures that many seem to think - I just don't think I'm that hard to understand ;) but maybe I'm wrong about that. In any case I can't expect people to read my mind. Perhaps I need to take that more on board. But then I REALLY don't want to err on the neurotic/demanding side. :(
 

eclare

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Pragmatic approach to our emotions - yes! It can be very frustrating though. There have been times in my life where I have been in utter emotional turmoil. Someone has really hurt me - but intellectually I'm able to enumerate in an almost cold point by point way why it happened, how it happened, how this person is bad for me, etc etc. Yet, emotionally I'm still a mess - I wish I could actually CONTROL the emotions with the pragmatism! Sometimes I think the intellect and the emotions are like beach balls bouncing off in different directions.

Yep. That duality between what we think and what we feel is incredibly frustrating. My incredibly wonderful and talented therapist will ask, whenever I get upset, what I'm feeling. Invariably I start to give her an analytical answer about what I think is going on, and she'll stop me and say, "No, what are you FEELING right now." And it always takes me a minute to get past the way I think I'm supposed to feel down to what it is that I'm actually feeling.

Whether or not INFJs are the desperately complex creatures that many seem to think - I just don't think I'm that hard to understand but maybe I'm wrong about that. In any case I can't expect people to read my mind. Perhaps I need to take that more on board. But then I REALLY don't want to err on the neurotic/demanding side.

I used to think this about myself, too. I thought I was straightforward and an open book. It's taken me a really long time to realize that this is simply not the case and that most people really prefer that you let them know what is going on in your head. As far as being neurotic/demanding I think that one thing that is hard for us (certainly for me) to get past is that because we find it so difficult to say no to requests, we assume everyone else will find it difficult to say no to us. In reality, this usually isn't the case. If we express a need or desire and someone else is unwilling or incapable of providing it, they'll usually just say so and move on. More often they'll probably be very happy to know what it is that we want/need and even if they can't provide it at that moment, it's information that they can use to help us out in the future.
 

mochajava

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fidelia In ignoring those small individual emotions and trying to meet others more than halfway, I think it is sometimes easy for us to have a bigger underlying tidal wave slowly creep up on us. We aren't aware of how much all those frustrations affect our overall feeling until we are overtaken by the enormity of it.

Dead on, and beautifully stated!

eclare: I thought I was straightforward and an open book. It's taken me a really long time to realize that this is simply not the case and that most people really prefer that you let them know what is going on in your head.

:doh: I know you're right, but I still think it's unreasonable that people can't stop and think? Or just look at your face? The people who have known me best can read me... though my INTJ husband can't, and I really, really hate it. I know this isn't a helpful resentment and sometimes I just have to shake him and say, "listen to me! I need to be listened to right now." (that's basically how things work in his family -- he clued me in. So I have to do that with him / his family members... though it takes a lot of energy, so I only usually bother doing it with him. I suppose I want my other relationships to be a little easier).

Another thing I've found is that people from my ethnic background (South Asians) whether in the US or back in India, are incredibly good at reading the emotional state of people around them. When I set foot in India, I get better at it too. This sounds silly, but it's actually not. There, it's incredibly important for getting things done and maybe even survival in some cases. Also, people are more expressive with their emotions and are MUCH more likely to say what they think, ask personal questions, give you advice, heckle you. In fact, the idea of boundaries / personal space that exist so strongly here don't exist there at all.

Here, immersed in American culture (that's where I'm typing from), we seem to view emotions as a sort of burden (look above -- we talk about wanting to control our emotions, how we're "supposed" to feel, etc) and I think that colors how we relate to them. It also colors how much others feel like they need to deal with our emotions, and I think this is partly why the onus is entirely on the person with feelings.
 

eclare

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Another thing I've found is that people from my ethnic background (South Asians) whether in the US or back in India, are incredibly good at reading the emotional state of people around them. When I set foot in India, I get better at it too. This sounds silly, but it's actually not. There, it's incredibly important for getting things done and maybe even survival in some cases. Also, people are more expressive with their emotions and are MUCH more likely to say what they think, ask personal questions, give you advice, heckle you. In fact, the idea of boundaries / personal space that exist so strongly here don't exist there at all.
This is a super interesting point. I would be very curious to know if there is a significant shift in the ratio of personality types in different cultures. There are plenty of cultures where showing any kind of strong emotion is very much frowned upon. As a result, I suspect people adapt by learning to be extra conscientious about subtle cues. And I'm definitely not an expert on any foreign culture, but my very limited understanding is that some cultures have developed very elaborate rituals for interaction that communicate what the person is thinking.

I think mochajava is partially correct in that within America culture some emotions are considered a burden or a sign of weakness. But I also think that showing other emotions is viewed as a sign of strength. Emotions such as anger and exhilaration are valued when they are perceived to be sort of masculine and combative.
 
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