[INFP] The World vs INFP

[skylights]

thanks, william k.

[post edited]

what i'd written was angry Te. it wouldn't have been well-received.

i'll try again later.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ you've said it twice now, but i really don't think you do get what i'm saying. i feel like you've essentially patted me on the head, said that's nice, and told me to run along and play while you use me as an example to the class of how not to cheer up the INFP because my "tactic" was to use something superficial.

oh well. god forbid an extravert have anything but superficiality to lend to the conversation. :rolli:

Ah well, I don't think you quite grasp what I am saying either. I wasn't seeking to belittle your effort so much as to clarify why this mindset in an INFP is a difficult one to counter, and that the ways which may work quite well with others don't work as well with INFPs. It's not any fault of your own, but a complexity in the INFP temperament that causes people to hit their head against a wall. It's been the subject of threads before for the very reason that most people don't know how to deal with an INFP in a mindset like this. Use of Te, INFP's being inferior, makes all the difference between ENFPs & INFPs in this case.

 

[William K]

Looking at it from the other angle. When I'm in my rant/vent/emo mood, this is the "special treatment" that would work the best
- Listen to me without judging
- Offer emotional support
- Offer a shoulder to cry on if necessary
- Later when the storm has blown over and I realize how silly I was, laugh like it was a shared joke instead of saying "I told you so"

Are these truly a chore? I'd do it for a loved one or a friend in a heartbeat.

 

[skylights]

thanks, william k. that list is a good reference. and i think everyone hates "i told you so."

Ah well, I don't think you quite grasp what I am saying either. I wasn't seeking to belittle your effort so much as to clarify why this mindset in an INFP is a difficult one to counter, and that the ways which may work quite well with others don't work as well with INFPs. It's not any fault of your own, but a complexity in the INFP temperament that causes people to hit their head against a wall. It's been the subject of threads before for the very reason that most people don't know how to deal with an INFP in a mindset like this. Use of Te, INFP's being inferior, makes all the difference between ENFPs & INFPs in this case.

ok. i'm sorry for my misunderstanding. i realized that about the Te thing - that for me it's my language of choice when i'm upset, especially because i feel like it brings me clarity, but as an INFP's inferior it's probably going to read in a way i don't mean it to for you guys. i've seen that IRL too... it works great for countering most T types but F types usually don't respond well to it. i'm gonna try in this post to avoid that. i do see how that poster could be seen in a negative light. it just wasn't intended that way, and i was caught off guard when it upset you, orangeappled.

it's interesting, to participate in this thread, because i think i've felt the way other people must feel when they accidentally offend me in a Fi way. confused, irritated, like the other person is self-absorbed. that hasn't really happened to me IRL before. it's illuminating to be on the other end of it.

-

i do want to point out the potential catch-22 that i see occurring, especially given adasta's last post. i hear that there is a potential mood encompassing rejection, misunderstanding, and/or worthlessness that is familiar to most INFPs, but adasta has shown clearly how non-compromising an INFP can be. but if someone is unwilling to bend to meet others, and is also fairly quiet in general, then how (and why) should others reach out to them? it's not really fair to expect others to be appreciative of you when they don't necessarily agree with your values.

People are at times jealous, and at other times infuriated, of our ability to treat those things which cause problems in others' lives - bills, money, status, etc. - with such utter disdain as to render them almost worthless.

it's really awful when someone declares that they see the things people have worked so hard towards as worthless, when they make it clear that they think that they're better than people who value those things... the way i see it, this sounds like your perspective is too limited to see how those things could be legitimately, ethically valuable. i get angry and engage Te in this thread because i hear the self-righteousness in statements like these. if another person doesn't share your same values, then they aren't going to see you in the same positive light as you see yourself.

and then, given william k's post, to help an INFP, i should listen to them, be non-judgmental, and offer support.

i do understand how it can look from the Fi end. it looks like others are hurting themselves and everyone around them by putting too much value on superficial things; that the whole setup of the system misses what's really important. that others are nice enough to you when you're positive, and want you to spend time around them, and want to talk to you when they're upset, but they take off when you're upset, and think you're unreasonable. they like you because you're sweet and comforting to them, and because you are unobtrusive and don't infringe upon others, but they don't give you credit for it when they're going after their own goals. that you are trying to help the world but the world doesn't really give a shit about you, except to be its safety net when things are going wrong.

but from the other end, it's sounding like it's okay for an INFP to judge based on their values, but i can't tell them i'm judging them back or they get more upset. and if i don't agree with their values, then the things they do that they see as being good for the world, i don't really see as being something good. so it's not like they've really done anything for me, but they feel like they have, so they shouldn't be treated negatively. plus then the INFP hasn't opened up much, but others are seen as cruel for not making an effort to get to know the INFP. i mean, i care and i want to know what you're like on a deep level, but you're the one who is pushing people away and yet occasionally emoting self-righteousness, and then you're in existential turmoil because of it.

it makes me feel like this: .

 

[Adasta]

it's really awful when someone declares that they see the things people have worked so hard towards as worthless, when they make it clear that they think that they're better than people who value those things... the way i see it, this sounds like your perspective is too limited to see how those things could be legitimately, ethically valuable. i get angry and engage Te in this thread because i hear the self-righteousness in statements like these. if another person doesn't share your same values, then they aren't going to see you in the same positive light as you see yourself.

I think there is a problem surrounding "self-righteous":

Calling another person "self-righteous" comes directly from one's own ego. For example, if you were to call me self-righetous (and oh so many people have!), or if I were to call someone else self-righteous, what might really be meant is:

God, look at this guy with all his bloody beliefs and ideologies. Who does he think he is, trying to make us all feel bad? Just because he doesn't care about something, we're all meant to love what he loves? He's so stuck-up!

When I say "I don't care" about something, it is not pejorative; I mean that is is neutral to me, whereas other things evoke more of a response. I do not think I am being truly self-righteous because I am not lauding my views over anyone, nor am I saying that they are better than another's views. What I am saying is: I care about x; I don't really concern myself with y.

For example, if someone aspires to own a really nice car, and they work towards it and achieve it, regardless of the fact "I don't care" about it, I am still happy for them. Having a nice car isn't important to me, but that doesn't mean that I cannot/do not recognise its importance to another and understand that. There is no pejorative disavowal of what other people want. The only problem comes if they reach their goals via "unseemly" means; through exploitation, for example. If you want a nice car but that involves you being a shill of a corrupt banker to the detriment of hundreds of others, I am less accepting.

from the other end, it's sounding like it's okay for an INFP to judge based on their values, but i can't tell them i'm judging them back or they get more upset. and if i don't agree with their values, then the things they do that they see as being good for the world, i don't really see as being something good. so it's not like they've really done anything for me, but they feel like they have, so they shouldn't be treated negatively. plus then the INFP hasn't opened up much, but others are seen as cruel for not making an effort to get to know the INFP. i mean, i care and i want to know what you're like on a deep level, but you're the one who is pushing people away and yet occasionally emoting self-righteousness, and then you're in existential turmoil because of it.

it makes me feel like this: .

To say it "sound like it's okay" for INFPs to make value judgements implies that, conversely, it may not be okay and, what's more, suggests that there is a certain moralism about the whole thing. All of my judgements are based on values. If you do not agree with my values, then you do not agree with me. This isn't a problem for me because I'm quite "live and let live" in that regard and I have friends with whom I disagree about some things. However, if we disagree on something I consider to be fundamental, we could not be friends. This may again seem self-righteous, but it's not so much a formed opinion as a feeling - and that's what friendships are based on (at least to me). I can handle a certain degree of political dissent between people in my group of friends but if you are completely opposed to something I feel is right (note the words used there!) then it is very difficult for me to be anything more than a friendly acquaintance.

I have frequently been called self-righteous so you are completely accurate in your estimations of INFPs! I'm just trying to give you an insider's perspective into why INFPs seem so soppy and then suddenly so gruff.

 

[William K]

^ Agreed, Adasta. There are basically two boundaries to my values. One separates things I care about with the things I'm ambivalent about, either because I haven't made up my mind about them yet, or I truly don't care. The things I care about is further separated into things I care about but am willing to compromise and "live and let live" with, and things that are definite "no-no"s, i.e the tripwires that turn me into a crusader

Keeping a healthy balance among the 3 categories of values is essential for me if I'm not to be bogged down worrying about every single thing that offends me, especially those that don't offend other people.

 

[skylights]

To say it "sound like it's okay" for INFPs to make value judgements implies that, conversely, it may not be okay and, what's more, suggests that there is a certain moralism about the whole thing. All of my judgements are based on values. If you do not agree with my values, then you do not agree with me. This isn't a problem for me because I'm quite "live and let live" in that regard and I have friends with whom I disagree about some things. However, if we disagree on something I consider to be fundamental, we could not be friends. This may again seem self-righteous, but it's not so much a formed opinion as a feeling - and that's what friendships are based on (at least to me). I can handle a certain degree of political dissent between people in my group of friends but if you are completely opposed to something I feel is right (note the words used there!) then it is very difficult for me to be anything more than a friendly acquaintance. [...] I have frequently been called self-righteous so you are completely accurate in your estimations of INFPs! I'm just trying to give you an insider's perspective into why INFPs seem so soppy and then suddenly so gruff.

haha. yeah. i borrow the term self-righteous from my INTP brother, who has used it in reference to me, actually. i understand the "invisible line" of Fi values because that's present in me, too. to a lesser extent, but still there. i am self-righteous about some things - hurting people, mostly - but i do try to be open to other people. my brother just sees it because he knows a deeper me than most people. my closest friend laughs about how i'm much more judgmental than most people would ever expect. i just don't tell them, because... well, why upset them when they don't really need to know?

but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?

maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.

i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.

Keeping a healthy balance among the 3 categories of values is essential for me if I'm not to be bogged down worrying about every single thing that offends me, especially those that don't offend other people.

actually i think i know what you mean here. some of my friends have so many specific opinions about things and a lot of the time i really am pretty neutral. if i cared so much about everything i feel like i'd have a constant headache

 

[Southern Kross]

but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?

...

i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.

Like I implied in my earlier post, its a bit of a push/pull situation for us, especially 4w5 INFPs. We have difficulty defining clear boundaries with regards to interaction with others, even for our ourselves. We want to be around others but certain factors drive us away. Its about us finding a healthy balance; something that's easier said than done.

Nonetheless, its not all our fault. We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society; there is only so much we can be expected to do to alter ourselves for others. And we don't exactly want be difficult, we just want to be ourselves.

maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.

I think this is more of a discussion of the problems and causes involved.

The thing is INFPs talking about dark and depressing stuff can look like a self-indulgent pity party to others but we're quite used to reflecting and ruminating in this manner on a regular basis. We rarely speak about this out loud to others (ie. we don't usually inflict this on others ) so an opportunity like this to talk it out is good for us. It can seem like a pointless exercise but this is how we work through things. We like to tackle the dark stuff head on and analyze it rather than turn away from it and pretend its not there. Believe me, would love to solve these things and, in all likelihood, are keenly aware of the points you have raised but there are no easy fixes for such problems.

 

[OrangeAppled]

but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?

People, some of them being INFPs, definitely can choose to isolate themselves, and not see it as self-imposed, even though it is. It reminds me quite a bit of the current "INFx and loneliness" thread. Being "different" does not mean exile. It's like the panda built its own cage or something; in defense of the panda, it felt a need to protect itself. The INFP in this mindset sees the external as a threat to his values or identity (esp. an e4) in some way, and basically gives up fighting. Instead, he goes on the defense, building a wall and then complaining that he's all alone. Of course, the threat is not always legitimate, or it does not have to be a threat if dealt with productively. Getting perspective is important to breaking down the wall. This is all so Fi-Si loopy, with a dash of paranoid Ne. There is no easy solution, or it has to come from within.

I agree with Southern Kross though....it's not all paranoia. Often, a legitimate experience sets it in motion. The INFP just has to see not every situation will play out the same way in the future. There is also a tendency to explore the dark side of things, as it aids in value development; you need to know what is bad to deem it so. That does not mean direct experience, but exploration through thoughts & imagination. I doubt all of this is foreign to you, being an FP

maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.

INFPs on the whole do not feel this way; some do, sometimes. I think some of us can relate to the OP, as we've been down like that, but it's not necessarily our normal state of mind, nor is it a healthy one. I don't think you can do anything about it; the ENFP champion of the underdog is usually well-intentioned, but sometimes it's wasted when the underdog is not persecuted so much as willingly a loner. In which case, it's just plain not your problem. I know it's hard not to care, but it can be a waste of your energy with these people. I'm sure you sometimes pick up when someone is on the verge of change though; I think then, you can say something, but you have to give it time to sink in. And with an INFP, you have to be delicate and sensitive to them, because you're walking on value mine-bomb ground.

I notice I really perk up to the ENFJ approach, as it's "inspirational". It's like, "I see what you could be." INFPs just DIE over that, in a good way. It's like the ENFJ allows them to have their Ni shift in perspective for a moment, and that's exactly what the INFP needs to pull out of the Fi-Si loop.

i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.

There can very much be an elitist or self-righteous aspect to it, yes. Once again, it's the INFP's problem. It's also indicative of a narrow ego, an ego that feels threatened easily. Back to the panda, the INFP does not want to give up the unique identity, or the safety of the panda cage (e4 or 9, respectively), because it's maintaining their identity. Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.

 

[papag44]

I used to have this feeling of being a "last resort" friend.
.... somewhat smart & independent & creative. I realized it was not so much that people did not like me, than that they were intimidated by me or thought I was disinterested, because there's that aloof aspect to me too. ... I think the INFP demeanor only suits most people in a one-on-one situation, namely, a "therapy session".

amen. i feel like people get wrapped up in their dumb human games and we're too real for that. ever read the book The Giver? that's how i picture infp's. I also think of E.T. On therapy: people I'm reasonably close to always open up to me and talk about life, about their problems, what they wanna do etc etc. We put people at ease and make them feel understood. Everyone else is trying to assert their thoughts and opinions all the time. We are the ones that will take the time to understand someone.

 

[papag44]

What I do want to say is that if we focus on specific false premises they become our manifestations in this reality. .....

It is truly from within that when we stop trusting within we stop trusting without and when we stop trusting we become further disenchanted and believe that because the world is designed to function entirely away from the functionality of who we are then we are expressing in a down regulated way and our body affects our thoughts then.

The Law of Attraction. Amen. Labels *may* only serve as general guidelines.

We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society

Society put Hitler in power. People are idiots. Embrace your infp-ness. The important people in your life will treasure you.

Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.

Amen. Think positive and think possibilities. You are not defined by a label or these forums. I think humans are the most highly evolved species on the planet because they can show love and compassion and be altruistic. That is the epitome of an infp (if you do want to label yourself) and I love you.

 

[papag44]

What I do want to say is that if we focus on specific false premises they become our manifestations in this reality. .....

It is truly from within that when we stop trusting within we stop trusting without and when we stop trusting we become further disenchanted and believe that because the world is designed to function entirely away from the functionality of who we are then we are expressing in a down regulated way and our body affects our thoughts then.

The Law of Attraction. Amen. Labels *may* only serve as general guidelines.

We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society

Society put Hitler in power. People are idiots. Embrace your infp-ness. The important people in your life will treasure you.

Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.

Amen. Think positive and think possibilities. You are not defined by a label or these forums. I think humans are the most highly evolved species on the planet because they can show love and compassion and be altruistic. That is the epitome of an infp (if you do want to label yourself) and I love you.

 

[papag44]

i luuuvvvv yooouuu go out and conquer the world with your love and understanding. humanity needs it.

 

[Southern Kross]

There can very much be an elitist or self-righteous aspect to it, yes. Once again, it's the INFP's problem. It's also indicative of a narrow ego, an ego that feels threatened easily. Back to the panda, the INFP does not want to give up the unique identity, or the safety of the panda cage (e4 or 9, respectively), because it's maintaining their identity. Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.

To me, this paragraph addresses the whole crux of the matter and rather well. It reminds of one part of a enneagram 4 description I strongly responded to (and its the best one I've ever read):

As Fours become more fearful that they cannot find a solid identity in themselves, they begin to create one out of whatever random tendencies they find. Thus, matters of taste, likes and dislikes, and emotional reactions become the materials which Fours use to construct an identity. Because their sense of self is so tenuous, however, Fours begin to put a great deal of weight on what would be for others relatively unimportant traits. ("I only wear black." "I listen to Puccini, but never Wagner.") It is important to note that most of these personal traits function by negation. Fours may not know who they are, but they certainly believe they know who they are not. While these idiosyncrasies can be fairly harmless in and of themselves, as Fours increasingly depend on them to figure out who they are, they begin to paint themselves into a corner. In the interest of maintain a narrowly defined self-image, Fours may refuse to engage in many basic activities necessary to live their lives. ("Poets don’t work in an office.")

(Emphasis mine)

I think e4 INFPs do try to separate ourselves from certain people and activities in order to define ourselves. While I didn't consciously recognise that I did this, this has been something I have been working to overcome, and have been better for it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Great passage...that's definitely it for me. I can fall into the trap of defining myself by my tastes. There can be a disdain towards those who I see as having lesser taste. I got over my music snobbery some years ago for the most part, but I still feel traces of it now & then. It's a very lazy way to establish identity too; you're really just stealing, and it amounts to nothing unique at all. You know this deep down too, and then fear of being uncovered as some fraud just reinforces the tendency to keep people at a distance. The integration of 1 qualities helps you create an identity based on real merit, things you've actually accomplished yourself, not just stuff you like & want to be associated with to assert how different you are. Really, only then do you rise above the cliche anyway.

 

[Southern Kross]

^ Great passage...that's definitely it for me. I can fall into the trap of defining myself by my tastes. There can be a disdain towards those who I see as having lesser taste. I got over my music snobbery some years ago for the most part, but I still feel traces of it now & then. It's a very lazy way to establish identity too; you're really just stealing, and it amounts to nothing unique at all. You know this deep down too, the then fear of being uncovered as some fraud just reinforces the tendency to keep people at a distance. The integration of 1 qualities helps you create an identity based on real merit, things you've actually accomplished yourself, not just stuff you like & want to be associated with to assert how different you are. Really, only then do you rise above the cliche anyway.

Yeah I have been/am a music and film snob. I realise its rather lame but its hard for me not to cling to such things. You're so right about it being an attempt to steal others' artistry and claim for yourself. The description I quoted actually advocates e4s create artistic works for this reason; to cultivate and communicate a true self rather than merely an amalgamation of others.

 

[Synapse]

something, something other something...!

 

[RDF]

This thread has taken an interesting turn in the last few posts, esp. from you two, Southern Kross and OrangeAppled. Those are some great posts and quotes about how we INFPs have a tendency to box ourselves in with our dislikes or in our attempts to define ourselves. That has certainly applied to me in the past.

I would just like to point out that creation and accomplishment aren't by themselves necessarily a fix. On the positive side, creation and accomplishment do improve self-confidence and they are more "positive" than defining oneself by negatives alone. But on the negative side, one can still engage in snobbery about what one has created/accomplished compared to others (engaging in one-upmanship). And one can still feel like a fraud or even question one's own creations/accomplishments when comparing notes with others who have done the same things as you (it raises questions like "Was my experience as genuine as theirs, did I do it as well as them"), leading to distancing oneself from the very people you would relate to best--those with whom you have common points of interest. In other words, if creation/accomplishment are done too narrowly (such as by working for years to become an expert in a narrow field), that can end up boxing us in as well.

If you want to talk about the best ways to keep oneself in touch with others and be genuinely interested in them, I think it boils down to just that--staying in touch with others and being genuinely interested in them. In other words, I think it's a useful exercise to take an interest in what other people do even when their activities or interests seem boring or corny or tiresome. That is: approach people, find out what they're into, let them mentor you in it for a bit, and then join them in their activities or interests (try them out first-hand) in order to find out for yourself what the attraction might be.

I whole-heartedly agree with the point that, at our worst, we INFPs can construct our identity out of random tendencies and arbitrary likes and dislikes. So if it's all kind of arbitrary anyway, then I find that it's fun to deconstruct parts of my identity at times and more or less turn it on its head: Take a break from my current interests, and instead seek out and experiment with the very kinds of things that I used to think were low-class or stupid or boring. I set out to find the attraction in things that I used to think were unattractive or even repellent.

I realize that's kind of an aggressive approach. And I realize that it can be taken to extremes, as in seeking out degradation or being destructive. But really I'm not talking about anything quite that drastic. I'm talking about just trying out mundane things that I had previously shunned, like watching sports, trying to improve myself at public speaking, trying out new computer games or new technologies, learning to dance, taking a scuba-diving or skydiving class, etc. In other words, broadening my horizon in mundane but still-challenging ways.

Also, like I said above, I ask other people who are interested in those pursuits to mentor me and put up with me as a beginner. It helps me to connect with others (because most people like to mentor), and it gets rid of any need to distance myself from others out of fear of being a fraud (since it's hard to be a fraud when I've already admitted that I don't know what I'm doing and need help). Really, the hardest part is simply swallowing my pride, admitting to others that I'm a beginner at something, and asking for help. But as I do it over and over at different things, I get used to it.

And then, of course, as I try out lots of new things, I also increasingly get the positive benefits of creation/accomplishment in the broadest sense of those words. That is, the very process of broadening my horizons to that degree gives me a sense of accomplishment and greater ease with the world at large.

 

[JoSunshine]

I think that people of all types can fall into the trap of defining themselves externally (God knows I've been guilty myself) although I do notice that 4's seem to have a long list of small things (rather than a short list of broad things, e.g. money, status, popularity, etc).

I have a friend who I feel certain is a 4 who drinks tea rather than coffee. I mostly drink coffee, but sometimes enjoy tea in the evening and always have a variety on hand. One day a offered her a cup of tea, telling her of all the flavors I had. She became genuinely despondent and said, "But tea is my thing!" We had a whole conversation about how she felt like drinking tea, dressing artsy, changing the spelling of her (common) name so no one else would have the same name as hers, listening to British punk, etc is what made her different and special (and maybe even "better"). I guess my drinking tea took away from her uniqueness in some way...at least in her mind. It seems to be a very slippery slope to create an entire identity based on things that are so precarious, especially because she is a special person for reasons so much more profound than a box of tea.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think society tends to show preference to EST's. INFPs and ISFJs are the two types that seem to be most at odds in different ways with society. They can both get bulldozed, but in different ways. Extroversion is definitely a benefit as is being a "T". I'm not sure about S or N, but I think it is better in the larger world to be a Sensor. J's also have a type of advantage, but it is pretty difficult to impose trouble on ESTPs. I think they do okay.

/over-generalizations