[MBTI General] INFJs - Why we hold back

[wedekit]

I was reading this in an MBTI book called Personality Type, and I thought this actually shed some light on my situation as an INFJ:

"Thus, it should be recognized that INFJs are more like INTJs than they appear. Their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they are receptive to others only up to a point. Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend.
The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve--to locate their true identity outside of the expectations and definitions of others. Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay."

Wow... I came to study the MBTI to learn about myself, and ever since I picked up this particular text I seem to have had so much light shed onto myself. I often feel like I don't know who I am or where I stand, but these kind of explanations seems to make me feel more... normal. I tend to do a lot of self-examination and sometimes I am stumped, but the MBTI can usually help me in certain situations.

So, the real reason I'm posting is to share this and ask if this seems to be characteristic of you or INFJs you know.

 

[faith]

The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve--to locate their true identity outside of the expectations and definitions of others. Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay."

I'm not sure I know what this is saying. I may know, or I may be thinking of something else. This thing I'm thinking of (attitude, feeling, sense, place within my mind) has been with me from my earliest years, and seems to be at the very core of how I experience the world. It is something intensely personal, with threads of awe, reverence, a joyful sorrow, and unnamed longing. You might could call it a secret room, a place within my mind where I am most completely myself.

Certainly I don't share it with the world at large, but I don't think I'd be adverse to sharing it with someone who loves and understands me. For the most part, though, it feels as though it would simply be impossible for anyone to go there with me. I don't know how to take them there; I don't know how to share it with them.

How do you experience this sensation of holding back? For me, I only intentionally hold back in order to protect myself or someone else. I can just as intentionally release and express these same things that I've held back. But this other thing I'm talking about, secret room or whatever you call it--I don't have the slightest idea how I could share it.

 

[cascadeco]

The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve--to locate their true identity outside of the expectations and definitions of others. Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay."[/SIZE]

Well, I'm focusing more on the '...their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay', and interpret that as meaning INFJ is likely to explore all depths of human emotion, and the causes of the emotions/what's behind them -- even the 'negative' ones...'negative' ones and motivations being ones that others might shy away from, not want to discuss, might easily judge, or just wouldn't easily understand.

I'm reminded of my INFJ friends and I, and us discussing more of our inner world -thoughts, opinions and emotions - without judgement towards the other for having the thoughts/feelings in the first place. I don't want to give specifics here...but just accepting many of the psychological twists and turns for what they are, because we've on some level all 'gone there' at some point.

From one of her emails to me --

'You know, I really love that I can email things to you and you totally get what I am saying and thinking... There are very few people I can do that with! Thank you for listening to my strife...With most people, I don't say anything because things get taken out of context,over dramatized, etc. But I totally know you understand where I am coming from.'

We've talked about stuff like this before -- more 'risque' emotions, or feelings/thoughts that probably wouldn't be easily understood or accepted by a non Ni-Fe folks......

I don't know. Like Faith, I'm not sure either whether I'm interpreting what you posted correctly or not!!

And I think the Fe makes it much more likely for myself and the other INFJ's I know to be very careful with who we really open up with. Kind of what I think faith was saying here:

For me, I only intentionally hold back in order to protect myself or someone else.

As far as locating my 'true identity' -- yeah, I need a reasonable amount of alone time to 're-find' myself sometimes, since I do sometimes overextend myself socially in my efforts to connect and really understand and listen to other people and be supportive of them. So when I'm extending myself to others, I might 'forget' about my own identity for a bit.

 

[wolfmaiden14]

Interesting. I realized long ago that "who I am" is just as much defined by what people perceive of me as it is how I perceive myself. After all, we can never be fully objective when gaging ourselves. So it takes that outside glimpse to really see. But there does tend to be vital points that others don't see, though I do know them to be there. I just can't seem to find the right situation to let it show without stumbling.

It's like only other INFJs can even understand those parts. So maybe that's why I hold them back.

And yes, sometimes my connection with people leads them to assume I want a deeper relationship beyond that moment. So I've learned to act like I don't care unless I'm okay with that.

Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay.

This, I definitely agree with. The things I do not express are not expressed usually because I am not done figuring out exactly what they are. This kind of goes into the honor thread. I'm not going to say/show something I don't mean, so I have to know WHAT it means first(the emotional awareness). I turn it over again and again in my mind(Ti?) until I figure it out, going way deeper than most people care to. And by then, the time to express it for any relevant reason has usually passed.

 

[cascadeco]

This, I definitely agree with. The things I do not express are not expressed usually because I am not done figuring out exactly what they are. This kind of goes into the honor thread. I'm not going to say/show something I don't mean, so I have to know WHAT it means first(the emotional awareness). I turn it over again and again in my mind(Ti?) until I figure it out, going way deeper than most people care to. And by then, the time to express it for any relevant reason has usually passed.

Ah..and I can relate to this too!

Ok..we're all interpreting the original text very differently!

 

[unsung truth]

This, I definitely agree with. The things I do not express are not expressed usually because I am not done figuring out exactly what they are. This kind of goes into the honor thread. I'm not going to say/show something I don't mean, so I have to know WHAT it means first(the emotional awareness). I turn it over again and again in my mind(Ti?) until I figure it out, going way deeper than most people care to. And by then, the time to express it for any relevant reason has usually passed.

This reminds me of one day when I was presenting my thesis for my essay and the teacher kept hitting me with deep philosophical questions such as: "how do you know who you are?" and I couldn't answer because I didn't have it perfectly worked out in my mind. That really motivated me to organize my thoughts on the subject and write a great essay.


As for relating to the description of an INFJ: I do search for my identity both outside and within other's standards. And I have definitely gone into deep places which I doubt many people would understand. ( I tend to make lots of connections)

 

[wedekit]

We all interpreted it different, but everyone's interpretation applied to me as well.

Well, I have to agree when you say that only INFJs can understand those parts. I would be very interested in becoming friends with a fellow INFJ someday and see how much alike we are. It's kind of tragic to me that there is so much I have to say but I just don't know how to say it, and honestly I am afraid to say it because others are just... incapable of understanding.

 

[redacted]

i hold back because i believe most people are too fragile to hear my opinions.

also, i don't share my opinions with those i don't trust, since they might exploit them. (take them out of context to someone else, for example)

 

[Wandering]

i hold back because i believe most people are too fragile to hear my opinions.

Fragile as in "the complexity of your opinions and feelings is going to make their head explode" ?

also, i don't share my opinions with those i don't trust, since they might exploit them. (take them out of context to someone else, for example)

Ugh :steam: I *hate* it when people do that!

 

[redacted]

Fragile as in "the complexity of your opinions and feelings is going to make their head explode" ?

actually i don't think my opinions or feelings are that complex usually. i can always put words to them if i feel like it. i have opinions about complex subjects, sure, but my opinions themselves are relatively simple. most of the time, i have an opinion because it is the most simple and logical way to view a subject.

it's just that sometimes those views are politically incorrect or something, and i don't want to offend anyone. i think of myself as an NT in my head (Ni+Ti), but with enough focus on Fe that i can't just let everything out.

i also have very harsh ideas about people and their motivations sometimes, and mostly, i don't think people could handle it if i told them. in fact, i view it as a last-resort-weapon -- when someone really really really does something terrible, i'll let my opinions of them out as punishment. (i've only done it twice, but i made one of the two [a guy] cry.)

 

[white]

*peeks into an INFJ thread*

*raises hand*

Actually, I've a related question to wedekit's OP. To broaden it more. What's a(are) defining trait(s) of an INFJ?

I've collected a "basket" of you, but I'm still having trouble figuring out the commonalities from the posts? You're sort of like a loophole among the spectrum to me; if I can't identify a type, I take it to be INFJ, but that's not the best method. Perhaps the difficulty in analysis is also because I do not know any IRL.

Thus far these sound rather true:

Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend.

- there's a certain dispassionate sympathy? Yes, or no? The warmth of an INFJ is not overt / immediate; rather like a shy flame that licks you and waits?

The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve

- how is this different from the reserve of an INTP, ISFJ or an INFP - I can spot the difference with the INTJ?

 

[Wandering]

Thus far these sound rather true:

Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend.

- there's a certain dispassionate sympathy?

In my case, I wouldn't say dispassionate so much as circumstancial, temporary. I can be all yours for several hours or even days if I feel that you "need" me, but that doesn't mean I want to maintain that level of closeness for the rest of our life, or that I even want to become one of your regular friends. I'll be there if you NEED me as a "counselor" or something, but please don't count on me to share your social life!

The warmth of an INFJ is not overt / immediate; rather like a shy flame that licks you and waits?

Again, for me, it's not a matter of time or anything like that: it's a matter of NEED. If you need my warmth, you're going to get massive amounts of it right away, freely given, no problem. But don't ask for anything else, except small talk. Casual friendship exhausts me, quite simply. Come and see me if you need me, by all means, or let's have some happy funny small talk if we happen to meet, but please don't ask me to start scheduling stuff with you, or to call you every other day, or anything like that. I just can't do that.

The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve

- how is this different from the reserve of an INTP, ISFJ or an INFP - I can spot the difference with the INTJ?

I don't really know about that one. I guess the difference with the IPs is that maybe it is more obvious somehow that the IPs are mainly living in their heads? They Extravert their Perceiving function, while we Extravert our Judging function, so I guess it's possible we might look more like we live in the outside world than they do? Which is highly deceptive because we are just as Introverted as they are.

 

[ferrisbueller]

I'll be there if you NEED me as a "counselor" or something, but please don't count on me to share your social life!
This really reminds me of my girlfriend. She is always finding people that need support and counseling them. As a result there are like ten girls who want to be her best friend because of the incredible emotional support she provides and she's a little overwhelmed by their response. She very much seems to have a radar for unhappy people and a genuine desire to make them feel better, but to her that sympathy does not necessarily represent an overture of friendship.

 

[Athenian200]

In my case, I wouldn't say dispassionate so much as circumstancial, temporary. I can be all yours for several hours or even days if I feel that you "need" me, but that doesn't mean I want to maintain that level of closeness for the rest of our life, or that I even want to become one of your regular friends. I'll be there if you NEED me as a "counselor" or something, but please don't count on me to share your social life!


Again, for me, it's not a matter of time or anything like that: it's a matter of NEED. If you need my warmth, you're going to get massive amounts of it right away, freely given, no problem. But don't ask for anything else, except small talk. Casual friendship exhausts me, quite simply. Come and see me if you need me, by all means, or let's have some happy funny small talk if we happen to meet, but please don't ask me to start scheduling stuff with you, or to call you every other day, or anything like that. I just can't do that.

I can relate to much of this. It really can be hard for me when people start contacting me on a regular basis when they have nothing to talk about, or depending on me too much. It's almost like part of my mind is going "It's okay, I'm here. What do you need?" and the other is going "Leave me alone already, and quit being so clingy/needy!" I usually express the first part only, unless I get incredibly frustrated. Sadly, I can start to feel like this just from the demands of a normal friendship like being expected to contact someone two or three times a week, simply to keep the friendship going. It's weird because I can handle spurts of interaction that involve long conversations everyday for a while (sometimes even a couple months), but it's consistent contact for no particular reason that drains me, because I feel forced to keep thinking of something to talk about.

 

[tovlo]

I was reading this in an MBTI book called Personality Type, and I thought this actually shed some light on my situation as an INFJ:

"Thus, it should be recognized that INFJs are more like INTJs than they appear. Their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they are receptive to others only up to a point. Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend.
The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve--to locate their true identity outside of the expectations and definitions of others. Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay."

Well, I may be yet another interpretation of this section, but it did resonate--the part you bolded especially.

I am very sensitive to the expectations of others and try to understand and meet them, but I do ultimately keep close to myself my own sense of identity and protect it from being damaged by engagement with external expectation. If I find that external expectation is beginning to threaten my own sense of self I will disengage to protect it.

I don't hide my experience from anyone who expresses an interest in receiving it. I didn't have much resonance with the section about people mistaking my behavior for overtures of friendship. I enjoy engagement with those who engage with me. I might grow tired sometimes of the demands of engagement, yet I respect my boundaries. If I evaluate my desire for engagement in some arena has waned, I make choices to honor that. Though usually no one who asks for my attention would go without.

(off topic edit...I'm also very sensitive to the unspoken and I strongly suspect there are many times when people expected things from me that I didn't deliver on, but they were unspoken. If someone doesn't specifically speak a need to me then I have worked hard to not consider it my responsibility. I probably have dissappointed people who wished more engagement from me, but in an effort to solidify my boundaries, I decided some time ago to allow it be their responsibility to speak their need to me clearly if they want me to meet it. Sometimes I can't meet their expectation and still honor my own needs, but at least I can address it directly if they speak it.)

 

[Wandering]

The truth is that Ni inclines them to keep a part of themselves in reserve--to locate their true identity outside of the expectations and definitions of others. Unlike INTJs, however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal and causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay."

I didn't actually comment on the OP, so here goes.

Unsurprisingly, I too resonate with this I don't usually notice it, but it becomes crystal-clear when I try to *completely* submit to the "expectations and definitions of others". It just won't work. I just can't do it. It's like there's this little black box at the very center of my being that just won't let itself be re-programmed. Even if I manage to focus all the rest of my being, body, soul and mind on reprogramming myself, even if I manage to make it look both emotionally desirable and rationally logical, this little black box just sits there and defies me. I argue, I plead, I storm, I cry... Nothing doing. And when finally I break down and give up, the black box opens and my core personality comes out and says: "you can't change me, you can't change you, you are what you are, you are what I am, and we are in this together forever".

Nobody can touch this black box, not me, not others, no matter what method they may use. I am ME in that black box, and I'll *always* be me. The rest of my person is subject to reprogramming, whether forced or desired, whether outside-imposed or self-made. But the black box will never change.

 

[tovlo]

- there's a certain dispassionate sympathy? Yes, or no? The warmth of an INFJ is not overt / immediate; rather like a shy flame that licks you and waits?

Thinking about this, it might be true of me. Certainly the shy flame that licks you and waits. I will reach out with overtures tentatively, but then I primarily am receptive, waiting for others to show me that they are interested in receiving me.

As far as dispassionate sympathy...kind of. At first I thought no, because my actual internal experience feels anything but dispassionate. It feels intensely passionate. However, my expression might appear dispassionate for two reasons. The first is the reticence to express myself to those who have not yet given me the signal they want to receive. The second is my learned tendency to keep strong boundaries in place to protect myself. If I abandoned myself to the intensity of my caring for others I would very quickly lose complete touch with my own needs and eventually starve myself of anything I might need. So I've learned to view things with some sense of dispassion that has a framework I can live with morally. However, you get into my heart and there is practically nothing I wouldn't sacrifice of in service of that caring. The passion overwhelms and the carefully constructed dispassion disolves. This has limits though. The natural self-protection kicks in when I sense my own health is in danger and that is when I move to create enough space again to keep my sense of self healthy. I am careful in relationships where I have a strong emotional stake and where there has been trust established to be as open as possible about my experience so any confusion that might damage the relationship will be diminished.

 

[white]

Thanks for that, tovlo, Wandering. That walls thing and selective few into the inner circle was something that came across in the INFJs handwritings too actually, now that I think of it. Of all the samples I'd seen, the INFJs were the most guarded, for want of a better word. Would I be right to say that it is a self-protection / evaluating if others are worth giving to, and constantly reassessing that, before giving?

I'd like to understand what creates/motivates holding on to those walls, simply. I can understand an amount of guardedness for protection as being wise, but is this the only reason?

 

[cascadeco]

Would I be right to say that it is a self-protection / evaluating if others are worth giving to, and constantly reassessing that, before giving?

For myself, I think that's probably true.

I'd like to understand what creates/motivates holding on to those walls, simply. I can understand an amount of guardedness for protection as being wise, but is this the only reason?

Ooh...a toughie. Let me think.

*25 minutes later*

Fear of ultimate rejection is part of it - but that would be the 'guardedness for protection' piece. Just thinking that I have many aspects of my personality, some of which might not shine through more than once every 6 months, and thinking at some point any one person is going to find something quite unappealing about me, and throw me away. This has happened on more than one occasion, but I suppose this happens to everyone.

Beyond that, part of it might be that I derive much of my sense of self from others, and my interactions with them. On some level I do not like this, and want a sense of self that is distinct from other peoples' views/judgements. So I might hold stuff back to keep it real and unique to me, because the minute I bring it out into the open and discuss it with someone, I then am really susceptible to changing my perceptions/views, based on the input (positive or negative) of the other person. So I want to keep some things to myself so that it stays solid without any outside influences. A few times in the past I have changed some rather substantial beliefs based on my interaction with others, and I don't like that I can sometimes be 'easily influenced'. It seems like I then don't have much solidity myself. So my potential ability to see many perspectives can make my own sense of self diminish and then I might feel less solid. So I might 'keep the walls up' because it makes me feel more like a separate entity with my own solid beliefs. Putting myself more 'out there' causes my inner world to because less solid, because I'm then vulnerable to new data/criticisms/reactions that might cause me to have to re-build my inner world - which can be exhaustive and take some time.

I think this is what I'm really doing when I'm needing to 're-center' myself and 're-find' myself again -- it's when I need to reconstruct my inner world so that I feel 'solid' again. I WANT to have fewer walls and be more open to others, but the downside is this phenomenon. It's unsettling, and it would be psychologically 'easier' just to keep the walls up.

I think.

 

[Shinzon]

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