[NF] NF and the after effects of sex

[cafe]

I'm not NF, I'm NT but this is my experience too.

Now I would say that this hasnt always been the case but it is the case now, when I was younger I had different expectations of sex, which tended to swing between the extremis of physical/recreational and spiritual/higher nature.

To be honest its part of the reason that I'm interested in the topic and also the various accounts that others, particularly younger people, make, I'm not convinced that following all the dramatic changes from repressed to entirely open that society has really got it right in terms of the messages it transmits about sex and how it helps to form peoples expectations.

That said its not succeeded in creating perfect mutual expectations in relation to life in general let alone sex.

I don't think anything could. It's a process. I do think that introducing sex into a relationship prematurely can produce a false sense of intimacy and attachment where none is warranted otherwise, if that makes sense.

 

[Lark]

I don't think anything could. It's a process. I do think that introducing sex into a relationship prematurely can produce a false sense of intimacy and attachment where none is warranted otherwise, if that makes sense.

It certainly does and I think its why some people do become sexual early in relationships, I've been disappointed sometimes by the world of hurt some of the kids I've worked in have opened up for themselves by becoming physically intimate with friends, people who are pretty much unambiguously friends, if even that but they've hoped it will some how transform things doing so.

 

[Lark]

I'm interested in whether or not this is a topic derived from just experience or the secular world or a confounded expectation arising from neither of those things but faith of some kind.

 

[Rebe]

Has anyone ever felt like they have given their all to someone? Been completely honest beyond the reach of words, with someone? Maybe even felt as if they had given their soul to someone else, through a sexual experience? If so, did you feel like your partner did the same? If not, how did it feel to be completely exposed, emptied of yourself, but not filled by the other?

Whoa no. Why would I give my soul away? It's mine. No touchy. I don't like getting that close.

 

[EnflamedHeartofSand]

I'm interested in whether or not this is a topic derived from just experience or the secular world or a confounded expectation arising from neither of those things but faith of some kind.

Lark,
This question is derived from a spiritual concern that might arise if one were to let their guard down with a sexual partner. It's a seemingly simple situation, but whoever responds saying that it's not a big deal, doesn't in my opinion, realize just how deep a statement they are making about themselves with each sexual experience. Though I agree, that someone might not believe that sex is a completely transcendent experience, and that sex itself is not a transcendent experience, unless done in such a way that one does wish to unveil themselves completely to another....to say that it is a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need I think is an excuse....it is definitely a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need but if that is all it is, then it is on it's way to becoming a source of self satisfaction, where the other is slowly becoming obsolete.

I'll say more on the subject, gotta go now

 

[cafe]

Lark,
This question is derived from a spiritual concern that might arise if one were to let their guard down with a sexual partner. It's a seemingly simple situation, but whoever responds saying that it's not a big deal, doesn't in my opinion, realize just how deep a statement they are making about themselves with each sexual experience. Though I agree, that someone might not believe that sex is a completely transcendent experience, and that sex itself is not a transcendent experience, unless done in such a way that one does wish to unveil themselves completely to another....to say that it is a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need I think is an excuse....it is definitely a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need but if that is all it is, then it is on it's way to becoming a source of self satisfaction, where the other is slowly becoming obsolete.

I'll say more on the subject, gotta go now

LOL.

Why does someone else's experience have to coincide with your own theoretical value set in order to be valid and valuable?

I love my husband of 18 years very deeply. He is the only partner I have ever had and I am his. He is an amazing person and the biggest blessing of my life and I respect, admire, and adore him.

I am one of those people that almost never lives in the moment and just enjoys the physical experience. I'm always thinking about what happens next and what the implications of things are, practically, theoretically, philosophically.

Sex is really the only time I can shut my frigging, pesty brain off and just enjoy physically feeling. That is absolutely invaluable to me and I thank God for it.

I work towards pleasing my husband on a daily basis. I think about him in virtually every decision I make. I've made it my life mission to learn to read him and how to best love him in a way that is meaningful to him.

Now I am a spiritual person but I don't make a big differentiation between the spiritual and the mundane. That which is done in love, whether it's wiping a baby's poopy butt or cooking someone's favorite meal, or holding someone while praying for them and comforting them, or feeling the awe of nature or feeling that Presence in church -- to me, all spiritual and all mundane. All good and wonderful.

So is sex a spiritual experience? To me, not any more than anything else is. It's a precious, private, special experience, but -- to me -- not magical or mystical. It is really intense and feels amazing and personally, only something I do with my life-mate. It's one of the best things in life.

But, hell, you are probably going to do it thousands of times in your life. It's just one component of life and one component of a relationship. How you treat your partner during a disagreement -- to me -- is more an indicator of your love for them than whether you have some kind of mystical experience during sex.

Does that mean that I don't think it can't be a spiritual experience for others? I admit that I think it's possible they are confusing an oxytocin rush for something mystical, but who is to say, really? Frankly I have no right to say someone else's experience is not valid and real.

You asked for people's input on this subject and then when you got answers that didn't match your own, you decide that those are 'wrong answers.' You can't dictate other people's feelings, including those of a lover. You can't even dictate your own feelings, really. You can influence them or repress them or displace them, but feelings pretty much just are. They stand on their own merit.

What I would suggest, is that if you are very heavily invested in the spiritual side of sex, you need to spend a lot of time getting to know a partner in advance. You need to talk about what sex means to each of you and what your expectations are. You need to share spiritual experiences together that don't involve sex -- before you have sex with someone. And then, when you do, don't try to dictate their experience or their feelings. Just let them experience it in a way that is meaningful to them whilst you do the same.

 

[EnflamedHeartofSand]

Why does someone else's experience have to coincide with your own theoretical value set in order to be valid and valuable?

It doesn't, but I wouldn't accept an argument along the lines of "it's just sex" from a good friend who I cared about, or my sister, or if I ever have a daughter someday...

I think there is always more to it than just sex, and people who justify it by trying to "demystify" the whole experience, are doing the right thing in not placing all of their hope in sex alone,However, after attempting to demystify sex, one shouldn't go the opposite extreme and make it completely profane without acknowledging that it has the potential of effecting them strongly because like it or not, it is an unveiling, that could leave one vulnerable and then hardened, or wounded, depending on the person.

Now I am a spiritual person but I don't make a big differentiation between the spiritual and the mundane. That which is done in love, whether it's wiping a baby's poopy butt or cooking someone's favorite meal, or holding someone while praying for them and comforting them, or feeling the awe of nature or feeling that Presence in church -- to me, all spiritual and all mundane. All good and wonderful.

So is sex a spiritual experience? To me, not any more than anything else is. It's a precious, private, special experience, but -- to me -- not magical or mystical. It is really intense and feels amazing and personally, only something I do with my life-mate. It's one of the best things in life.

I understand clearly the distinction you are making here, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. If one was to always seek an overwhelming feeling in life, then truly the mundane things like changing a baby's diapers or going to work, or shopping for clothes etc...would be excruciating. I think that you, despite reacting negatively to my post, are in reality, in agreement with me.

I never described sex to be a magical or mystical experience, and that may be where you misunderstand me. After imagining what it might be like to have sex with a girl whom I love very much, began to wonder...."what if she held back?"

before you have sex with someone. And then, when you do, don't try to dictate their experience or their feelings. Just let them experience it in a way that is meaningful to them whilst you do the same.

If I wanted sex to be so individualistic, I'd just do it myself. If sex is a form of communication, than there will definitely be a leader and a follower, control, submission, pushing and pulling...anyways, I didn't post to argue, and I'm not claiming anyone is "wrong", so please don't engage me in another polemic.

 

[Totenkindly]

Weirdly enough, for someone like me who has been detached for so long and never lives in the moment except under duress, the act of shutting off my brain, living in the moment and completely immersed in my body and all of my senses firing wildly at once IS a spiritual experience for me. At least, it is experienced as such.

I am not sure why the two need to made distinct. "Transcendent" might just apply to an experience that is beyond the typical norm of daily life. Or not. There is no right answer, I am just throwing out an idea...

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

Sex has always involved an emotional commitment from me, whether I wanted it that way or not. As I've gotten older, I've always warned fellows that I get emotionally attached very easily after having sex with them.

I don't know about it being "spiritual". I've certainly had really, really nice sexual experiences with people I cared for (at the time). Looking back though, the only person I really want to be sexual with is the person I'm involved with right now. It's certainly been the best sex I've had the pleasure of sharing with someone. Physically it feels really good, and emotionally (for me at least) I feel really connected to him. And I feel that just strengthens our pair-bond.

I had someone I used to be involved with approach me and mention he still fantasizes about when we were doing stuff together. I find that kind of sad, since he was never really emotionally invested in me at the time and all I really ever was to him was some sort of sexual outlet and now fantasy. If that's all that sex ever is to someone it's really not worth it.

 

[cafe]

It doesn't, but I wouldn't accept an argument along the lines of "it's just sex" from a good friend who I cared about, or my sister, or if I ever have a daughter someday...

But here is the thing, you can disagree, but the way another person feels about something is the way they feel about it. Just because it's not how you feel about it doesn't make it a universal. It's an opinion.

I think there is always more to it than just sex, and people who justify it by trying to "demystify" the whole experience, are doing both the right thing in not placing all of their hope in sex alone. However, after attempting to demystify sex, one shouldn't go the opposite extreme and make it completely profane without acknowledging that it has the potential of effecting them strongly because like it or not, it is an unveiling, that could leave one vulnerable and then hardened, or wounded, depending on the person.

Personally, I agree, but once again, I don't think I can make that belief universally applicable to everyone or invalidate the experiences of others.

I understand clearly the distinction you are making here, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. If one was to always seek an overwhelming feeling in life, then truly the mundane things like changing a baby's diapers or going to work, or shopping for clothes etc...would be excruciating. I think that you, despite reacting negatively to my post, are in reality, in agreement with me.

I never described sex to be a magical or mystical experience, and that may be where you misunderstand me. After imagining what it might be like to have sex with a girl whom I love very much, began to wonder...."what if she held back?"

Then I would suspect her view and/or experience of sex is just different from your own or maybe there is a problem that has is basis somewhere in her psyche or in the relationship as a whole.

You can control with whom you choose to be intimate, but you cannot control or dictate their feelings or experience.

If I wanted sex to be so individualistic, I'd just do it myself. If sex is a form of communication, than there will definitely be a leader and a follower, control, submission, pushing and pulling...anyways, I didn't post to argue, and I'm not claiming anyone is "wrong", so please don't engage me in another polemic.

In order to communicate and have good communication, do two parties have to have exactly the same ideas and opinions? I don't think so. And I don't think two people need to have identical experiences in order for the experience to be beautiful and meaningful.

The reason I'm engaging you is that you used words taken from my previous post and disparaged them and discounted them. It was kind of a passive aggressive attack on my opinion and experiences -- which you asked for when you made this thread. So do not engage further if that is your choice, but in this, as in all human interactions, the only person's actions you can control are your own.

 

[Redbone]

I've felt it...just once. Long time ago.

I don't think the experience will ever come again.

Same for who I was with.

 

[the state i am in]

i'd like to look at instinctual subtypes. it seems more of a big deal for sx types. more about desire, merging, and ecstasy than pleasure itself.

sp types sometimes seem to go even further into themselves and away from others. the stresses of the world fade away/get drown out.

for sx types it feels more like a celebration, a totally consuming expression of what you want, your focus, your completion. for nf types (with sx doms) this is more specifically focused on a holistic way of communion--connecting, communicating, recognizing each other in a shared world you create. you totally fucking touch base, jostle each other so that you listen to and SEE/recognize each other more fully and completely. feels like removing the veils and cloudiness. sp types seem more practical, and sex is seen for its place within the scope of life rather than an opportunity to well up all your life energies and catalyze them to get them to turn into an all-consuming passion/identification with passion. it's less dramatic. it's more focused on the basic effects and less grandiosely interpreted, less representative of more than itself.

 

[cascadeco]

^I dunno, state.

Intimate experiences for me, with those I have deep feelings for, are really important and meaningful. Yes, it obviously feels good, but it's due to the person I am with and the love/connection I am feeling towards him. It's super intense on an emotional level for me. I wouldn't say 'spiritual' per se, but given how I am in day-to-day life and my lack of spirituality, heck, maybe it's my version of spiritual - of oneness with another human being, for that moment in time that I just want to stretch out into infinity. (This doesn't even have to be the act of sex, btw - could just be an intense makeout session or a shared experience..but since this thread is about the physical, I'll stick to that). I want to stay there forever, it can be so f*cking amazing and I can actually release myself and I'm no longer so shelled in. It's freeing. Just me and that person, that's all that matters, honestly these moments/connections with another (that happen so rarely for me) are one of a handful of things that are the truly rich/amazing aspects of life and make it so worth living.

And, I'm pretty darn sp.

(Also, I don't really have any pleasure at all going physical with those I don't have feelings for - I've tried it and I end up feeling a bit of self-loathing, so it's definitely not just a physical need for me. Frankly I can live life just fine without the act of sex, so it's definitely the person & that shared connection, for me - and the person makes me really desirous of the physical intimacy)

 

[kccrush]

I think you can only have the sexual spiritual experience when it's requited. So yes, but only when I'm seriously deeply in love, and come to think of it, that has only happened on one occasion (with one person multiple times...). Love expressed through sex, through making love, to me is spiritual. I fully concur, but don't think it can be one-sided. That I don't relate to nor do I believe it's even possible.

 

[EnflamedHeartofSand]

The reason I'm engaging you is that you used words taken from my previous post and disparaged them and discounted them. It was kind of a passive aggressive attack on my opinion and experiences -- which you asked for when you made this thread. So do not engage further if that is your choice, but in this, as in all human interactions, the only person's actions you can control are your own.

Thank you, point taken, received(well), and understood.

 

[skylights]

first of all, your avatar is neat, enflamed.

I work towards pleasing my husband on a daily basis. I think about him in virtually every decision I make. I've made it my life mission to learn to read him and how to best love him in a way that is meaningful to him.

Now I am a spiritual person but I don't make a big differentiation between the spiritual and the mundane. That which is done in love, whether it's wiping a baby's poopy butt or cooking someone's favorite meal, or holding someone while praying for them and comforting them, or feeling the awe of nature or feeling that Presence in church -- to me, all spiritual and all mundane. All good and wonderful.

So is sex a spiritual experience? To me, not any more than anything else is. It's a precious, private, special experience, but -- to me -- not magical or mystical. It is really intense and feels amazing and personally, only something I do with my life-mate. It's one of the best things in life.

But, hell, you are probably going to do it thousands of times in your life. It's just one component of life and one component of a relationship. How you treat your partner during a disagreement -- to me -- is more an indicator of your love for them than whether you have some kind of mystical experience during sex.

this is lovely, cafe, and i feel very similarly. i can have a spiritual flash almost anywhere, and sometimes at times when i am with other people we have spiritual flashes together. in a relationship or at a gathering.

I think there is always more to it than just sex,

i think there is an important thing here, which is that there is always going to be more meaning and thought and whatnot going on than just sex, yet ultimately, it is quite possible for all signifies in my life being having sex. just because it calls up a host of other thoughts and associations doesn't necessarily make it a pivotal point, you know? sure it's meaningful, but so is the garbage i took out last night. that's just the way an NF brain - anyone's brain really - works. but i can make that sexual experience and its associations register quite low in terms of importance, or quite high, depending on the circumstances of the event. i've had an experience before that didn't mean anything to me, really, besides showing me that i was simultaneously more immature and more mature than i realized. the psychological stuff on my end still is important to me, but not what went on with the person i was with - he was just a nice guy. an acquaintance i shared a pleasant experience with... there wasn't really any psychological or spiritual bonding. i think you kind of have an awareness when that happens. that didn't happen with him, and i think we were both totally fine with that. it wasn't what either of us was looking for.

After imagining what it might be like to have sex with a girl whom I love very much, began to wonder...."what if she held back?"

well, what if she did? i don't think sex can ever truly be a full and complete merging... each person will always be themselves, and you cannot become that other person. but that's no reason there cannot be a spiritual overlapping. i have been completely honest beyond words with someone, but i still cannot possibly ever share every single thing that makes up me with them. it would take millenia... but i have given my all to someone, in that i feel so strongly for them that it eclipses all my senses and thought for a time. even if she is holding back certain parts of herself, what if she is giving in another that is so important that it rises to the forefront and obscures everything else for a while? there is a communion there.

 

[stringstheory]

Sex is really the only time I can shut my frigging, pesty brain off and just enjoy physically feeling.

Exactly.

if we're going by the definition of spiritual relating to the spirit or the soul, as opposed to physical or material things, I do that enough with so many other life experiences. I don't need to do it with everything, and this is one of the things I'd prefer to keep from being....i almost want to say "tainted" but that has too much of a negative connotation....but yeah, tainted. And let me try my best to explain why:

Though I agree, that someone might not believe that sex is a completely transcendent experience, and that sex itself is not a transcendent experience, unless done in such a way that one does wish to unveil themselves completely to another....to say that it is a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need I think is an excuse....it is definitely a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need but if that is all it is, then it is on it's way to becoming a source of self satisfaction, where the other is slowly becoming obsolete.

Se is not "my" realm; that's Ne and/or Fi. I unveil myself to others through my ideas, my values and making connections with others verbally. To unveil myself through an extremely physical act just doesn't come naturally to me, so if the purpose were to share myself with someone, I'd switch to Ne/Fi mode and I'd miss the joy that comes from a very physical act.

So if i allow Ne and Fi to take over then they overshadow my entire experience. I wouldn't actually end up sharing myself with anyone. It would all be in my head with no outlet to express any of it because it's not the place nor the time for me. Maybe that's just me, but sometimes I need to have that line drawn somewhere and this is one of the places I draw it; doesn't mean that it's not meaningful. it's just something that's a more satisfying experience for both parties if it stays out of a "spiritual" realm IME.

i hope this made some sense, this actually was very difficult to articulate.

 

[Hopelandic]

Sex is whatever you make it.

 

[EnflamedHeartofSand]

well, what if she did? i don't think sex can ever truly be a full and complete merging... each person will always be themselves, and you cannot become that other person. but that's no reason there cannot be a spiritual overlapping. i have been completely honest beyond words with someone, but i still cannot possibly ever share every single thing that makes up me with them. it would take millenia... but i have given my all to someone, in that i feel so strongly for them that it eclipses all my senses and thought for a time. even if she is holding back certain parts of herself, what if she is giving in another that is so important that it rises to the forefront and obscures everything else for a while? there is a communion there.

I think you hit the nail right on the head here sky, about wanting to become the other person, and about sex being incomplete in that way.