[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Siúil a Rúin]

...When it happens the other way around, I assume people are doing that for the same reason. When I find out after that they didn't even really mean those things or are feeling happy now, it hard not to feel pretty frustrated at them for just taking out their emotions on me without any regard for the impact those words have had. I wonder what other kinds of signals I am consistantly missing, what kind of a friend I am, or else what kind of chooser of friend I am.

It is devastating if you think things between you are mostly okay and then without warning get a torrent of words unleashed on you. For me anyway, I also feel an extreme amount of embarrassment and shame, as I pride myself on trying very hard to look at things from the other person's point of view and not knowingly bothering or hurting them. It makes me feel as if I have been completely unaware of the dynamics between us, or it shovels on loads of extra stuff to sort through before I can get on with giving the person what it is that they need at the time, and its hard for there not to be lingering wariness or annoyance (if it was a false alarm) even if I have forgiven them. I wonder what else there is that may come my way when I least expect it (I hate emotional surprises), or if I should tolerate being someone's emotional punching bag if they didn't really mean what they said. I do assume that anything said either in a joking manner or in the heat of emotion is the unedited version of what they truly believe about me (I don't say everything I think, particularly if it is not productive or I'm not sure it's valid or if I don't want to hurt someone I love and don't think it is best dealt with in that way) and it hurts greatly to know that I'm not safe with someone that I previously thought I was...

I related to this. I can't comprehend the idea that someone doesn't mean what they say. I realize people will say things in a state of upset, but if someone says it, the ideas came from some place in their mind. Maybe they didn't mean it exactly how it was said, but I do think there is some way that they meant it. I'm never entirely certain how to reconcile it when it comes from left field.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, when I say something when I haven't had time to think it over or am really upset (which is rare because I usually undersay things rather than oversay them), it may come out less refined and more unvarnished, but it still has been floating around in there. It's like when people are drunk they just are more unfiltered versions of themselves, but I believe that most of the words and behaviours were floating around somewhere in there before even if they wouldn't normally allow it all out.

 

[Random Ness]

...

I'm confused about whether they work out situations at all. So NFPs, do you work out situations in your head and don't feel the need to express is outwardly?

If you withold information from an NFJ, you're just causing them pain. And what should NFJs not do to NFPs?

 

[Thalassa]

Question for NFs: When you get into a fight with someone, what do you do? What do you want from it? Do you want to talk things out? Understand each other? Leave it alone? Pretend it never happened?

I just recently learned that my INFP has a completely different way of coping with arguments than I do.

For me, I want us to talk about our problems and clear up any misunderstandings. The bad feelings from that argument keep coming back until I do. I want to know that either they have valid points and I should not condemn them or they are just a jerk and I shouldn't waste my sanity on them. I want to know that I've exhausted every possible tool to make amends. Just leaving an argument the way it is is unacceptable and exquisitely painful for me.

I didn't know that other people don't have this desire. My INFP refused to talk about anything with me and said it was because she didn't want to destroy our friendship. I didn't know her POV, so I thought she was purposely being avoidant and mean. Only recently did I learn that INFPs tend to be satisfied without knowing why an argument happened because they consider talking about things to be a negative waste of energy.

I admit I was frustrated because if she had just explained this to me, I wouldn't have been so mad at her, and we could have found some kind of common ground so we both could get closure. But I guess she thought I wanted the same type of closure as she did, too.

So, what do YOU do when you're in an argument with a friend? What do you wish other types would know about your argument style?

I don't know if this is Fe vs. Fi at all, because there are probably a lot of INxx who can seem "avoidant and mean" for various reasons. One of the reasons why I always flip-flopped between ENFP and INFJ is because I like to talk things out and I'm expressive, and I'm pretty sure that's both a trait of Fe and ENFPs.

In fact, I'd wager that INFJs are actually more reserved than ENFPs, which made me think I'm not, because I tend to blather more. Also, I know my ENFJ sister asked me once if I could control my emotions a bit more...at home. We're not even talking about a public outburst. I don't see the problem with being openly emo, especially if I'm at home or with people I'm close to.

 

[Random Ness]

^^^I just wanted feedback to see if anyone had more insight on the subject, MBTI related or not. I just want to know various people's opinions.

Lol, I don't see a problem with being emo with people I live with, either. It's only going outside that I try not to be a wet blanket.

 

[skylights]

Question for NFs: When you get into a fight with someone, what do you do? What do you want from it? Do you want to talk things out? Understand each other? Leave it alone? Pretend it never happened?

i want to talk things out immediately, which i have found is not always what the other person wants to do. i want to hear each other out fully (and wait until each person is done speaking to pass judgment), and try to understand one another completely. we don't necessarily have to agree but i want to reach a place of relative harmony.

i tend to progress very quickly from fiery anger to emo sappiness to mushy gushy warmth...

Lol, I don't see a problem with being emo with people I live with, either. It's only going outside that I try not to be a wet blanket.

same here! i try to generally contain the emo... but sometimes it results in good talks.

 

[KDude]

Randomness and Skylights: Your avatars look like twins.

See, Fe and Fi aren't that dramatically different. Why is this thread 90 pages long?!

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ it's only 10 pages long when you have 100 posts per page!

 

[Lauren]

I'm confused about whether they work out situations at all. So NFPs, do you work out situations in your head and don't feel the need to express is outwardly?

If you withold information from an NFJ, you're just causing them pain. And what should NFJs not do to NFPs?

I almost always work out situations in my mind before responding. I mean I think about what the other person has said, what they have said in the past (our relationship), where I could be wrong in my perceptions, before I address something. Again because I choose what I'[m going to say very carefully and as fideia said, I too take it to heart if I hear something hurtful from someone I care for. If I say something hurtful, I feel that adds up in the end. The other person will feel less safe and betrayed on some level.

I see what you mean about withholding information. I've thought about how my not saying or explaining myself in the moment may be construed as a withdrawal and anger. But, for me, it's not that at all. I need time to process what's just happened and not say something I don't mean. However, recently with one good friend, I realized that not talking about something when it arose was causing confusion. In that instance, I decided it was best not to wait but just clear it up by talking and getting his feedback. My experience with him has taught me the benefits of getting immediate feedback from someone, rather than waiting. The downside of going away to process is that you may miss the opportunity to get that feedback or clear things up. Then, the friend may be left in the dark about how you really felt until another situation arises.

 

[Random Ness]

@KDude and PeaceBaby: Wow, guys. xD

@skylights: Does immediate feedback ever cause you to say something you regret? Do you bug people if they want to wait until they finally talk to you (not that it's a bad thing; that's what I do)? Do you get frustrated when people don't ever want to talk about it?

@Lauren: That sounds like my method, actually. I'm okay with waiting for feedback (since I don't give immediate feedback, either) under one condition--we eventually talk about it! So then do you eventually give feedback? I was wondering what the thought processes are of people who don't give feedback and just leave things alone. Is it a coping strategy or being immature? I'm not sure.

 

[Thalassa]

@skylights: Does immediate feedback ever cause you to say something you regret? Do you bug people if they want to wait until they finally talk to you (not that it's a bad thing; that's what I do)? Do you get frustrated when people don't ever want to talk about it?

I bug certain people sometimes to talk about things with me, and I think it's actually a sign of insecurity rather than Fi or Fe. I mean, if I wasn't insecure about particular individuals, I wouldn't bother to keep prodding them for a response or an explanation. I think the emotionally mature thing to do would be to let people be themselves, even if that means they need more space or time. I mean, I don't want to always talk about things.

I just make sure I'm direct, usually, though. I think being direct is more efficient as in "I don't want to talk about this right now" or "I'm too upset to talk, let me calm down" versus just straight up avoiding someone or giving them the silent treatment, which is something that drives me BONKERS!!! Is this what your INFP friend was doing?

 

[Lauren]

@KDude and PeaceBaby: Wow, guys. xD

@skylights: Does immediate feedback ever cause you to say something you regret? Do you bug people if they want to wait until they finally talk to you (not that it's a bad thing; that's what I do)? Do you get frustrated when people don't ever want to talk about it?

@Lauren: That sounds like my method, actually. I'm okay with waiting for feedback (since I don't give immediate feedback, either) under one condition--we eventually talk about it! So then do you eventually give feedback? I was wondering what the thought processes are of people who don't give feedback and just leave things alone. Is it a coping strategy or being immature? I'm not sure.

I also don't mind waiting for feedback (for the same reasons) and I also need to eventually talk about it, if it's something that needs to be cleared up. A good example of this is my good friend at work. We talk often and always (this is a trait of the two of us) usually spill our guts to one another about whatever it is we're feeling or thinking. We don't leave things in limbo for long at all, if there's any chance of a misunderstanding. But we were talking one day about communication and I told him I needed to go away and think about something...he looked at me and finished my thought. He does exactly the same thing. Yeah, for me, when I go away and to think, it's neutral. I have no intention other than I need to process. I don't withdraw and never come back. I don't, as fidelia said, count the sins of anyone. Never. I'm not perfect and life's too short. To answer your question, I think if a person withdraws and never talks, it can be passive-aggressive. Or fear. Clarity is always good.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Sometimes I'm wary about talking through emotions with people because if there is some kind of mis-communication or distorted perception going on, my concern is that more words will spin a more convoluted web. When a relationship starts going awry I tend to try to simplify things by doing clear and directly "nice" things, but not hashing things out too much. I think there is a balance, though, and that it is good to do some talking, but that can form an endless loop of confusion also.

I've been disappointed when people I care about are distant, but it is most important to me to let people be who they naturally are. I don't like to coerce anyone into communicating or spending time with me. I tend to try to accept the relationship on their terms, and I realize I should probably assert myself more, but I don't because it doesn't entirely make sense to me to do it. Sometimes I have had to be the distant one because I had to deal with things that would make people really anxious which would contribute to my own anxiety. If I am making decisions I try to clear out as much emotional baggage as possible from myself and other people, so that is a time I tend to withdraw myself.

 

[skylights]

@skylights: Does immediate feedback ever cause you to say something you regret? Do you bug people if they want to wait until they finally talk to you (not that it's a bad thing; that's what I do)? Do you get frustrated when people don't ever want to talk about it?

yes, it has caused me to say things i regret. or, rather, allowed me. personally, i often need to verbalize my way through my thoughts - but while i'm muddling through the murky mess of words, sometimes the other person is taking my every word at 100% certainty and face value. i have learned to ask of my family and good friends to please let me take a little time navigating language to figure out what i'm trying to say, and please to withhold full judgment until i have reached a place of finality in thought and speech.

i do tend to bug people if they don't want to talk, because i want the matter settled and i want there to be peace and good will between us. it eats at me when i am in a state of disharmony with someone else, particularly if they are important to me.

i get frustrated when people don't want to talk if they don't give me a reason why. if they just say, i'm not ready yet, or i need more time, then i can wait. and if they never want to talk about it, that does frustrate me too. i feel like it's trying to pretend a wound is not there, instead of healing it like we could.

 

[Lauren]

Sometimes I'm wary about talking through emotions with people because if there is some kind of mis-communication or distorted perception going on, my concern is that more words will spin a more convoluted web. When a relationship starts going awry I tend to try to simplify things by doing clear and directly "nice" things, but not hashing things out too much. I think there is a balance, though, and that it is good to do some talking, but that can form an endless loop of confusion also.I've been disappointed when people I care about are distant, but it is most important to me to let people be who they naturally are. I don't like to coerce anyone into communicating or spending time with me. I tend to try to accept the relationship on their terms, and I realize I should probably assert myself more, but I don't because it doesn't entirely make sense to me to do it. Sometimes I have had to be the distant one because I had to deal with things that would make people really anxious which would contribute to my own anxiety. If I am making decisions I try to clear out as much emotional baggage as possible from myself and other people, so that is a time I tend to withdraw myself.

I relate to this, and to the bolded part: I also feel that talking too much can make things more muddled. Sometimes, if it's something that's not that important to clear up immediatey, I'll just be positive with the person and, as you say, do nice things. That can make it easier to talk later, if necessary. With my friend, if I feel I need to explain something (this is usually work-related, the "spill my guts" I mentioned), we go ahead and do it because we've always been completely open with and trust one another to tell the truth of any situation. I've also learned not to sweat certain things because by this time I hope he knows he can give me the benefit of the doubt. If I do nice things and be positive, it helps to lift what might be just a weird mood that the two of us might fall into. Sometimes certain situations are just passing storms.

 

[Random Ness]

Thanks for the multiple replies, guys!

Skylights, you and me have the exact same feelings about arguments. Well, there is one difference: I prefer to withdraw and take a couple days to find the best words to use [least hurtful, least confusing, etc] rather than muddling through a verbal conversation. But otherwise, I relate to feeling like not talking about it is ignoring the wound rather than helping it possibly heal.

It's interesting that you guys think talking things through could make more misunderstandings. To me, I'm already thinking of a thousand misunderstandings about them and so I feel that talking it through can only help me understand better.

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So I guess here's my main question: Let's say you break up with someone because you both misunderstand and dislike each other so much that you can't be together. Would you talk things out so you could understand why they are the way they are instead of just thinking they're a jerk? Or would you not talk about anything because you just don't want to face the pain?

And say you both still want to try to be friends. Would you work out your differences so you can avoid future misunderstandings? Or would you not talk about it and leave it behind so you wouldn't have to go through that painful process with them?

I find it impossible to just leave such a painful situation behind. I have to understand what happened or else it just keeps coming up over and over again. I can't not talk to someone about something big and pretend that everything's okay between us. Every time I see that person the bad feelings from that situation come up.

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My problem was that my INFP apparently did not think like this. She thought talking things over would prevent us from being friends. And she said she'd get in a bad mood and so never wanted to talk about it. But, she gradually distanced herself from me, so apparently she must have no longer wanted to be friends. I still have scars over this and the only way she could have helped them heal was to talk about it with me. So I have to find healing somewhere else. As in, learning about INFPs/IEIs/4s and asking people on personality forums questions.

Do you think the only way she could heal was by never facing the situation again? Do you think she had a valid point or do you think she was just avoidant? If she does, how can I deal with someone like that in the future?

 

[Esoteric Wench]

So I guess here's my main question: Let's say you break up with someone because you both misunderstand and dislike each other so much that you can't be together. Would you talk things out so you could understand why they are the way they are instead of just thinking they're a jerk? Or would you not talk about anything because you just don't want to face the pain?

And say you both still want to try to be friends. Would you work out your differences so you can avoid future misunderstandings? Or would you not talk about it and leave it behind so you wouldn't have to go through that painful process with them?

I find it impossible to just leave such a painful situation behind. I have to understand what happened or else it just keeps coming up over and over again. I can't not talk to someone about something big and pretend that everything's okay between us. Every time I see that person the bad feelings from that situation come up.

Do you think the only way she could heal was by never facing the situation again? Do you think she had a valid point or do you think she was just avoidant? If she does, how can I deal with someone like that in the future?

Random Ness, I'm still catching up on this thread so I haven't read everything yet but let me take a stab at this...

I don't think Fi (used by INFPs and ENFPs) is inherently avoidant. I'd say it's cautious about revealing itself. And, after it has revealed itself, it makes the Fi user feel a bit drained and emotionally exposed. At least that's how it feels to me. So, no, I don't think Fi would be the driver in your INFP ex's avoidant behavior.

This may simply be a case of her protecting her heart. Even if breaking up was the right thing to do, such events are always the source of a lot of heart ache and self-evaluation. Fi would indeed be a big player in this process for any Fi user. And as Fi is wont to do, it will usually play a private, not publicly articulated role. In other words, Fi would want to understand, but not necessarily discuss with another person, its internal machinations.

I think INFPs and ENFPs might handle this kind of thing a little differently. I think it may have to do with the differences between having a perceiving function dominate (ENFPs have dominant Ne) and a judging function dominate (INFPs have dominate Fi). As an ENFP I always want to take in new information and understand EVERYTHING in my life. (And, as an INFJ you share this strong desire to process the meaning of everything because we both have dominant intuition.)

But, I've noticed that there is a subtle difference in emphasis with my INFP BFF. She has Ne as her auxiliary function so she loves to take in new information, too. But her starting point is her Fi... or her vision of <insert situation here>. I've noticed that if her vision for the way things ought to be doesn't match up with the way things really are, she needs time alone to process this. And, me pushing her to process it with me does nothing but stress her out. So my gut feeling is that ENFPs would be more likely to go down the post mortem discussion path with you than INFPs.

So back to your question, maybe your INFP needs alone time to process it and doesn't fully understand the mental forces compelling her to want to run away every time you try to have a relationship post mortem discussion with her.

As far as how to handle this in the future if such a situation arises again... Well, I'd say that you need to recognize that her Fi needs time to grieve over the death of its vision. And, that during this grieving period, relationship post mortem discussions are probably not going to be met with enthusiasm. Perhaps instead of trying to hash out what happened in the past, you can focus on the present and the future. In other words, if you work on just being a good friend to her, then you can handle problems as they arise within the new parameters of your friendship.

I don't think there's a MBTI magic bullet here.

 

[Adasta]

I've noticed that there is a subtle difference in emphasis with my INFP BFF. She has Ne as her auxiliary function so she loves to take in new information, too. But her starting point is her Fi... or her vision of <insert situation here>. I've noticed that if her vision for the way things ought to be doesn't match up with the way things really are, she needs time alone to process this.

This is perceptive (and accurate). Tumultuous situations often make me think "Am I required here?" If the answer is no, I will retreat, recognising that I will not add anything beneficial to the situation and that there is probably someone else doing a good job. I am comfortable with this. If, for some reason, I am obliged to take part in this chaotic instance, I need a moment to evaluate how best to fit in. My desire is to differ from those in this group by being of genuine help in a way which would align with what I believe to be "right"; it is likely I would view already present members of the group as obstinate or misinformed (since they are not working harmoniously): I would not want to be considered thus.

[D]uring this grieving period, relationship post mortem discussions are probably not going to be met with enthusiasm. Perhaps instead of trying to hash out what happened in the past, you can focus on the present and the future. In other words, if you work on just being a good friend to her, then you can handle problems as they arise within the new parameters of your friendship.

These sort of conversations are so awful because I often know what the other person will say. If something has failed, I'm painfully aware of why. I almost always consider such conversations as a manifestation of the other person's need to talk about their problems. If I were to engage in this sort of analysis, it would often be to appease the other person, whom I believe to feel a need towards catharsis via conversation and discussion.

The reason I think this is because it is often true - others seems to enjoy/need to "talk things over" - but also because it is the last thing I would do. At the point of any failure, personal, introspective analysis is what occurs; any attempt to bring me out of this will be met with anger - interjections are viewed as stealing valuable time from what I consider to be extremely meaningful internal dialogue(s). This can be difficult for the other person involved because they are relegated to the status of "burden" while this painful process is taking place. Being forced into any sort of heart-to-heart during this period (which could be anywhere between 1-30 days, I would say) would be viewed with aggression and the result would be akin to waking someone from a deep sleep and bombarding them with questions: intense irritation.

Dominant Fi never feels a need to justify itself and views attempts by others to "patch things up" as servile, and therefore undesirable. This is "bad side" of the INFP. Time is a watchword, a necessary component for both the INFP and whomever else is involved. An upset INFP is much like an open wound; time, the scab.

 

[Random Ness]

I think INFPs and ENFPs might handle this kind of thing a little differently. I think it may have to do with the differences between having a perceiving function dominate (ENFPs have dominant Ne) and a judging function dominate (INFPs have dominate Fi). As an ENFP I always want to take in new information and understand EVERYTHING in my life. (And, as an INFJ you share this strong desire to process the meaning of everything because we both have dominant intuition.)

I didn't think ENFPs would withdraw and wait...

Perhaps instead of trying to hash out what happened in the past, you can focus on the present and the future. In other words, if you work on just being a good friend to her, then you can handle problems as they arise within the new parameters of your friendship.

The problem was that all of the problems that came up related to the problems we had in our relationship...

I don't think there's a MBTI magic bullet here.

I'm not looking for a magic MBTI bullet. I'm look for any magic bullet.

I've noticed that there is a subtle difference in emphasis with my INFP BFF. She has Ne as her auxiliary function so she loves to take in new information, too. But her starting point is her Fi... or her vision of <insert situation here>. I've noticed that if her vision for the way things ought to be doesn't match up with the way things really are, she needs time alone to process this. And, me pushing her to process it with me does nothing but stress her out.

At the point of any failure, personal, introspective analysis is what occurs; any attempt to bring me out of this will be met with anger - interjections are viewed as stealing valuable time from what I consider to be extremely meaningful internal dialogue(s). This can be difficult for the other person involved because they are relegated to the status of "burden" while this painful process is taking place. Being forced into any sort of heart-to-heart during this period (which could be anywhere between 1-30 days, I would say) would be viewed with aggression and the result would be akin to waking someone from a deep sleep and bombarding them with questions: intense irritation.

Thanks for the explanations, guys. I didn't know that people had thought processes like this.

Insight on a Ni dom. When I first get in an argument, all the pieces are zooming around in my mind and so I have absolutely nothing constructive to say right then. Then, I piece the pieces together in my mind from anywhere from a couple hours to one week. After that, if I wait too long to talk about something, a million judgements form in my mind, usually along the lines of, "That person is a mean jerk!" If I talk soon, then I know I can prevent those judgments and further hurt to both the other person and myself.

I almost always consider such conversations as a manifestation of the other person's need to talk about their problems.

I wanted both of us to benefit from discussion. I wonder if she thought I was selfish by insisting on discussion.

Dominant Fi never feels a need to justify itself and views attempts by others to "patch things up" as servile, and therefore undesirable.

Wow...that's wildly different from me. I always feel like patching things up.

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So what I've learned is...if someone needs their space after an argument, I should respect it, because perhaps they are like an IFP who needs time to think it all out and doesn't see the need to discuss things.

And, IFPs, if someone needs to understand something for closure, you should find some kind of common ground with them. Otherwise, you better have a good excuse, because if not, then refusing to discuss anything with them is just cruel.

 

[Fidelia]

I second what RN just said.