[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Fidelia]

There are a lot of things that are important to do, even if we do not feel like it. There are a lot of times when people don't feel love for their spouse at that moment, yet they choose not to treat them with disrespect. They may feel frustrated with their child, but they don't unleash a verbal tirade that will create lasting damage. They may prefer to go to bed or do something for themselves, but realize that tonight is when their teenager is in a mood to visit. They may find it difficult to go to the hospital to see someone they love, but they also realize that it is worse to force their loved one to face death alone. When an alarm clock goes off, people don't always feel like getting up, but they do. We eat well and exercise sometimes even when we'd prefer to do what is easiest. We clean our houses to prevent them from becoming dangerous, unpleasant to be in or losing value, even though cleaning is not most people's first compulsion. Life is made up of a series of tasks which may be unpleasant in the moment, but ultimate create resilience in us, better character, and a more ordered and happy existence.

I understand that Fi-ers may pick up on the fact that what we are doing, while being socially acceptable, is not where our heart lies. While I can see where it could hurt to come to that realization if it is you that is being tolerated, it doesn't mean that our desire is not to do everything within our locus of control to make the other person feel valued. Given the same circumstances, that is what we would hope for for ourselves.

 

[Thalassa]

There are a lot of things that are important to do, even if we do not feel like it. There are a lot of times when people don't feel love for their spouse at that moment, yet they choose not to treat them with disrespect. They may feel frustrated with their child, but they don't unleash a verbal tirade that will create lasting damage. They may prefer to go to bed or do something for themselves, but realize that tonight is when their teenager is in a mood to visit. They may find it difficult to go to the hospital to see someone they love, but they also realize that it is worse to force their loved one to face death alone. When an alarm clock goes off, people don't always feel like getting up, but they do. We eat well and exercise sometimes even when we'd prefer to do what is easiest. We clean our houses to prevent them from becoming dangerous, unpleasant to be in or losing value, even though cleaning is not most people's first compulsion. Life is made up of a series of tasks which may be unpleasant in the moment, but ultimate create resilience in us, better character, and a more ordered and happy existence.

I understand that Fi-ers may pick up on the fact that what we are doing, while being socially acceptable, is not where our heart lies. While I can see where it could hurt to come to that realization if it is you that is being tolerated, it doesn't mean that our desire is not to do everything within our locus of control to make the other person feel valued. Given the same circumstances, that is what we would hope for for ourselves.

Agreed. All of this is so true, and some people speculate that people with Fi do all of this with Te (for practical reasons or reasons of efficiency) instead of Fe. I don't know how much I buy that theory, or if someone with Fi can also use Fe. It does seem to me that maybe ISTJs and INTJs at least do these things with Te/Fi, which is why it comes across as nicely logical and rational when they are polite or dutiful or keep their feelings under control.

I always balked at the idea that being an ENFP meant being this selfish, impulsive person who ALWAYS DID WHAT THEY FELT. I sometimes wonder if that's why some people thought they saw Fe in me in person, or thought I seemed more FJ, because I'm not as loose and carefree and sarcastically joking as I seem to almost always be on-line.

Or maybe I am an INFJ who lets out some ENFP shadow on-line (I've also seen a couple INTJs who I've actually met in person on this site be called ENTPs on-line). Sometimes I wonder if function theory even exists and people are just quibbling about behaviors they don't like or relate to and blaming it on the opposite function.

 

[skylights]

However, I usually don't let it splash out all over the place and just make a mess. It's still controlled by Judgment -- whether it's my T rationality telling me what is fair and unfair in a given situation, or my F sense of propriety telling me what is appropriate for the given situation. If I feel the situation is inappropriate for my feelings to be expressed, I just don't express them. I can even seem fine while I'm actually really upset. You'll find out what I think and feel if the situation changes and now I feel I am in a postion where I can choose to express my feelings.

I had trouble understanding my ESFP son, because he's far more like what you describe. If he's having a "yuck" moment, it's basically crap that is spewed over anyone in the general vicinity. Even if he tries to control it, he has a lot of trouble doing so. It's just there and prevalent. I work hard to accept that it's very difficult, for whatever reason, and try to be supportive, and work on more positive ways for him to process stuff (that fit his style); but I still do feel frustration sometimes over it.

yeah. and do understand that it's not for lack of trying. if he's anything like me, i try VERY hard to let my emotions not spill out of control. but it's almost as if waves of color come over me - if i'm angry, it's like suddenly everything i see is colored vivid red, and i grow hot inside, and my leg starts bouncing - i'm suddenly filled up with all this hot angry energy and i don't really know how to get rid of it short of yoga (which, i've learned to do breathing exercises in place, but it's still a challenge). i'm actually very good at hiding feelings like nervousness and distaste, but with irritation and happiness, i really wear my heart on my sleeve.

*nods* If it's causing trouble, it's your job to understand why they are acting like they are instead of assuming they're ridiculous, and their job to recognize if their behavior is out of line instead of assuming they're acceptable.

I didn't read the whole discussion, but I have noticed people equating being "truthy" as you call it here with being honest or objective and that has always confused me especially if they are being truthy about something based on their perception. Saying it's "boring", "ugly", "stupid", might have some type of value that multiple people would agree with, but more often I've found bluntness to be subjective opinion that isn't nearly as truthy in the external world as it is inside the person. I've always admired the people who can say, "I feel this way about something, but it is because I've been influenced by x and y, and I know it is not necessarily a universal truth". Confusing perception and reality is about the least truthy thing a person can do.

i think there's a difference between a truth and Truth. what you're calling perception is what others are calling truths - personal truths - because, after all, the world is a great assembly of personal truths. without each person's perception, we have nothing. and where all the personal truths are able to overlap - that's where we get Truth. Fi truthiness is rather similar to Ti truthiness because both are about getting to the bottom of an issue - the heart of a matter - and finding basic principles that the universe works on - truths - but Fi truthiness is about how you really personally feel and see things, without bias from the external world.

I don't understand this criticism of Fe. If I'm nodding and smiling at Joe, doing the best I can while fervently wishing myself or him elsewhere, what am I doing wrong? [...] why does that make me bad? or fake? What else would you want done? I mean, besides making Joe a more entertaining conversationalist.

well, the potential is that it could be hurting both of you inside.

pull back from the conversation and just look at yourself: you're struggling to attend to him; wishing one or both of you elsewhere; upholding the idea that you should have to listen to him to be a good person. but why should that be true? you could end up both really hating conversation but talking anyway to preserve... well, to preserve what? a society based on connections you don't really like anyway? you're stressing yourself out by trying to pay attention to him when you really don't want to, and wasting your own time because, despite trying, you're not genuinely interested in what he has to say.

and then look at him. he's blabbering away, thinking he has a genuine conversation partner - or he kind of suspects that you're being a bit distant/cold and is silently wondering what he did wrong, so he's talking more to try to get you really engaged. either way, he's being somewhat deceived - he's under the impression that you want to talk to him, not that you are forcing yourself to. so then his time is being wasted, too. he'd probably rather have a conversation with someone who actually wants to listen.

and really, there's no reason you have to listen to him to preserve a good relationship and atmosphere. most of the time, you can politely excuse yourself. there are, of course, some people who are very hard to escape, but usually you can get away.

those are just the potential reasons i see.

 

[violaine]

Plus, it can be apparent when Fe-ers are "going through the motions" believing their actions a sufficient concealment of their true feelings or intent. I have observed Fe-ers in conversation, displaying the finest, most congenial smiles, head nods and eye contact, coming across like the following to me: "I will look like I am interested in what 'Joe' has to say because that's what I am supposed to do here, BUT I THINK HE'S AN IDIOT AND JUST WISH HE WOULD SHUT UP." As an FYI, the caps is what an Fi-er is likely hearing you "say" too, and this data has meaning to us. Thus, Fe actions can appear contrived well beyond the necessity of social convention. Fi, at times like this, feels like a kind of sincerity filter. Believe me, 'Joe' may very well be a tool, and I probably wish 'Joe' would shut up too, and I could easily see myself getting trapped in a conversation with him, but just looking like you care about what someone has to say is not enough to convince the whole audience. Sometimes I don't think Fe-ers "get" that fact. It's the root I suppose of why some people can accuse Fe of being "fake", even though in Fe hearts I know, there often reside wonderful, pure feelings and motives.



Yes, and this is how Fe is thus deceived; I can play the role and do good works or what's socially expected of me, even if my heart is contrary. Fe doesn't seem to know or care otherwise sometimes, assuming more often that because I am being good my actions are coming from a good place in my heart.

Let's hope the Ni can pick up what's really true instead, to not be so deceived.



It's a good question. I think we get so close to understanding the Fi - Fe divide, but bridging the gap seems elusive.

My contribution is not going to be helpful in terms of bridging a divide... *sigh* sorry to do this but the above just seems to my reductionist mind the kind of consideration Fi-users are asking from others. When someone finds a Fi-users' POV suspect or whiny or not interesting I believe they are being asked to nod and smile. Eek! Am I correct or did I completely miss the point?

On a tangent, I typically get along well with SFPs and NFPs irl. I do clash with people who think their specific needs override the needs of others (and I'm not talking about being the dissenting voice on behalf of science or an intellectual pursuit, I'm talking about someone who thinks their approach is the way even if on balance their way proves to be no more valuable than being a personal preference. Or someone who is in a bad mood who thinks they can say what they like whenever they feel like it and not inspire some ill feeling in me because "they didn't mean it". Anyone who does that too often makes my eyes glaze over. I don't know if it's Fi but I prefer to be far away from it.)

Anyway, I think Fe and Fi do a nice job of balancing each other out. Both are necessary.

 

[skylights]

My contribution is not going to be helpful in terms of bridging a divide... *sigh* sorry to do this but the above just seems to my reductionist mind the kind of consideration Fi-users are asking from others. When someone finds a Fi-users' POV suspect or whiny or not interesting I believe they are being asked to nod and smile. Eek! Am I correct or did I completely miss the point?

haha well

i think personally i hope that you will try to look beyond what you perceive as whining or not-interestingness and try to figure out why i am saying what i am and acting the way i am. i assume that people always have a good reason to say what they are saying, and i hope others will assume that of me too. and if it's still whiny after inspection, i would hope you would wonder why i'm whining - whining is usually underpinned by an unmet desire - and if it's uninteresting, i hope you would engage yourself in something else instead.

Or someone who is in a bad mood who thinks they can say what they like whenever they feel like it and not inspire some ill feeling in me because "they didn't mean it". Anyone who does that too often makes my eyes glaze over. I don't know if it's Fi but I prefer to be far away from it.)

just a thought... i can't really blame you for wanting to stay away from that - but i've definitely been guilty of it - and for me it's not so much that i think i can say anything without hurting the other person, it's just that whatever i'm saying seems really important to say at the time (plus an underlying rebellious feeling, amped-up by anger, that we all should be free to say what we want to say). my ENFJ friend called me out on this at one point and it was like a smack in the face. i didn't even realize that i was hurting her so badly.

and sometimes it's something rather mean - though almost never without truth - and when it is something inflammatory, it's usually a masked desperate cry - (wow this is embarrassing to admit but) when i've said inflammatory things in the past it's sometimes because i've see the other person withdrawing and i'm angry but trying to incite them back into conversing with me, because i feel like at least if we're in contact, we can solve things together. but if they leave then there's no hope for us fixing things between us. and admittedly that's kind of terrifying from my POV (you know the NFJ "doorslam"? being on the receiving end of one of those from a significant other is like the most anxiety-ridden state i have ever been in.), but i also genuinely want both of us to get back in harmony - once i've said my peace. (and i hope they will say theirs too.)

and when i hear someone else lash out like that, i don't really think about how i need to protect myself as much as i try to fight fire with fire and figure out what's going wrong with them to make them speak/act that way. for as much as we talk about many Fi dom/auxs being selfish i feel like some Fe dom/auxs are kind of selfish in the way that they tend to run away from people when they themselves are hurt, even when the other person is obviously in a great deal of pain too. :/

There are a lot of times when people don't feel love for their spouse at that moment, yet they choose not to treat them with disrespect. They may feel frustrated with their child, but they don't unleash a verbal tirade that will create lasting damage. [...] Life is made up of a series of tasks which may be unpleasant in the moment, but ultimate create resilience in us, better character, and a more ordered and happy existence.

i mostly agree with you on this, though i do want to point out that sometimes these things we do for the long-term good can be sort miscalculated. like treating your spouse with disrespect - i'm guessing you mean not saying hurtful things, which i agree is a good idea, but at the same time, i find it kind of disrespectful to feel anger/hurt/etc. toward your spouse and let the issue fester and not let them know why. at least if it's out in the open you can address it together - "i'm feeling upset with you because of ____, how can we solve this together so it doesn't become a long-term issue?" wouldn't it be awful to know the truth that your spouse is hating you, but doesn't trust you enough to talk to you about it? and i don't mean like a daylong wave of anger, but if it becomes a recurring issue. if it starts eating at you inside.

i also don't agree with unleashing a verbal tirade on your child, but too often i've watched my ESFJ mom be nice and not firm enough with my brother, until she loses it and yells about how hurt she is. again, it's bottling it up for the sake of harmony and the issue becomes a ticking time bomb. if you don't want to get up in the morning, maybe it's just liking your bed a lot, but maybe it's a sign that you're depressed or really need a different job. i just think we have to be careful that we're not convincing ourselves that we're doing these things for the eventual good while losing sight of the moment.

 

[William K]

My contribution is not going to be helpful in terms of bridging a divide... *sigh* sorry to do this but the above just seems to my reductionist mind the kind of consideration Fi-users are asking from others. When someone finds a Fi-users' POV suspect or whiny or not interesting I believe they are being asked to nod and smile. Eek! Am I correct or did I completely miss the point?

Look at it this way. If I make a post and someone disagrees with me in a rational, logical but gruff way, I'm assuming that he didn't mean any personal attacks and he was just debating my idea in his preferred method of communication. There are plenty of threads saying we should be less sensitive and look at the message instead of the way it is being delivered.

Now, why can't I get the same benefit of doubt when I'm writing something that sounds whiny to others? In fact, I think this post probably sounds whiny and like a rant to some people *plays the victim card*

 

[violaine]

haha well

i think personally i hope that you will try to look beyond what you perceive as whining or not-interestingness and try to figure out why i am saying what i am and acting the way i am. i assume that people always have a good reason to say what they are saying, and i hope others will assume that of me too. and if it's still whiny after inspection, i would hope you would wonder why i'm whining - whining is usually underpinned by an unmet desire - and if it's uninteresting, i hope you would engage yourself in something else instead.

Well, I dig with people by default. I dig even if I'm not enjoying their POV because I think it's respectful and I'm interested in most people. I also think people always have reasons for what they say and do and I'm interested in those.

just a thought... i can't really blame you for wanting to stay away from that - but i've definitely been guilty of it - and for me it's not so much that i think i can say anything without hurting the other person, it's just that whatever i'm saying seems really important to say at the time (plus an underlying rebellious feeling, amped-up by anger, that we all should be free to say what we want to say). my ENFJ friend called me out on this at one point and it was like a smack in the face. i didn't even realize that i was hurting her so badly.

and sometimes it's something rather mean - though almost never without truth - and when it is something inflammatory, it's usually a masked desperate cry - (wow this is embarrassing to admit but) when i've said inflammatory things in the past it's sometimes because i've see the other person withdrawing and i'm angry but trying to incite them back into conversing with me, because i feel like at least if we're in contact, we can solve things together. but if they leave then there's no hope for us fixing things between us. and admittedly that's kind of terrifying from my POV (you know the NFJ "doorslam"? being on the receiving end of one of those from a significant other is like the most anxiety-ridden state i have ever been in.), but i also genuinely want both of us to get back in harmony - once i've said my peace. (and i hope they will say theirs too.)

and when i hear someone else lash out like that, i don't really think about how i need to protect myself as much as i try to fight fire with fire and figure out what's going wrong with them to make them speak/act that way. for as much as we talk about many Fi dom/auxs being selfish i feel like some Fe dom/auxs are kind of selfish in the way that they tend to run away from people when they themselves are hurt. :/

With regard to the above, I guess I just get to a point where I think "why should I?" I'm not talking about the occasional letting off steam, I'm talking about people whose pattern is to take their bad mood out on me cos they are having a bad day. To my mind it's like one way communication. And it will be that they are having an off day, nothing deeper than that. I figure they can go tell it to someone else.

But what I'm getting at in the above scenario is the Fe user is painted as "fake" for hanging in a conversation they might not be enjoying (if it's me, I'm going to be trying to find a way to enjoy it), yet it seems I'm being asked to go against what I really feel (i.e. employ that same "fakeness") when someone lashes out or I find them boring if they are a Fi-user and feel they have good reason to do what they're doing. Hmm, I'd go so far as to say I don't ever want to enable that kind of behavior by just letting someone be that way around me, that's how much it irks me.

I don't think I'm missing anything in summing up that way. But that's what I'm fixed on in all of this, the inconsistency of not seeing the value in a "Fe" way of acting unless it's beneficial to you (I use that in the universal sense of the word) personally.

I would reiterate that I think Fe/Fi need to balance each other out btw. I don't think Fe is superior but it prob does make people around me feel better than if I were less so. Not so great for me a lot of the time though, as I have mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Fidelia]

haha well
...
and sometimes it's something rather mean - though almost never without truth - and when it is something inflammatory, it's usually a masked desperate cry - (wow this is embarrassing to admit but) when i've said inflammatory things in the past it's sometimes because i've see the other person withdrawing and i'm angry but trying to incite them back into conversing with me, because i feel like at least if we're in contact, we can solve things together. but if they leave then there's no hope for us fixing things between us. and admittedly that's kind of terrifying from my POV (you know the NFJ "doorslam"? being on the receiving end of one of those from a significant other is like the most anxiety-ridden state i have ever been in.), but i also genuinely want both of us to get back in harmony - once i've said my peace. (and i hope they will say theirs too.)

and when i hear someone else lash out like that, i don't really think about how i need to protect myself as much as i try to fight fire with fire and figure out what's going wrong with them to make them speak/act that way. for as much as we talk about many Fi dom/auxs being selfish i feel like some Fe dom/auxs are kind of selfish in the way that they tend to run away from people when they themselves are hurt, even when the other person is obviously in a great deal of pain too. :/

I think when healthy Fe users run away, what they are attempting to do is keep from expressing unprocessed ideas that may be incorrect or may hurt the other person. They do not want to be washed over with a wave of emotion that just has to be expressed. They would like time to examine it, see if it is valid and figure out how to present that in a way that will be most readily appreciated and understood.

I think perhaps it would help NFPs if we stated straight out that we were coming back and that leaving for a little bit or distancing ourselves for a bit is not a rejection, but rather has to do with our own way of processing. When you continue pushing, you are almost sure to do lasting damage that will take a long time to repair, you create even more emotional "noise" for us to sort through (and we're already feeling overwhelmed trying to decide what are the most important aspects of what we are feeling or want to say), and we probably will quickly become blunt or overbearing to you. This makes a Fe Te feedback loop that is productive for no one.

While you may get over the initial emotion you were experiencing that had to be expressed, we are deeply affected by it for a long time. Things can't just be the same tomorrow if some things were said in the heat of the moment, even if we forgive it. If we say things that hurt you, it also is very troubling to us for a long time.

Either way, when I retreat, I am trying to protect the other person and also need some reprieve, even if only for a few minutes. Inciting non-productive conflict to get me talking will make me dislike you GREATLY over the long term. If you have a problem, in my books you need to either take time to identify what it is and explain that you need my help to get that need met or else you need to preface what you say by explaining that you are just thinking out loud and need me to be your sounding board. If I can see you are hurting, I'm not going to leave for a long time, but I also don't want to hurt you worse by saying what I am thinking. You wouldn't like it if I invalidated your emotions and said, "Quit being such a selfish drama queen and just grow up and think of someone other than yourself", so I leave until I get some more perspective, sort out what it is that you might really be asking for and how I think I may be able to respond to that.

i mostly agree with you on this, though i do want to point out that sometimes these things we do for the long-term good can be sort miscalculated. like treating your spouse with disrespect - i'm guessing you mean not saying hurtful things, which i agree is a good idea, but at the same time, i find it kind of disrespectful to feel anger/hurt/etc. toward your spouse and let the issue fester and not let them know why. at least if it's out in the open you can address it together - "i'm feeling upset with you because of ____, how can we solve this together so it doesn't become a long-term issue?" wouldn't it be awful to know the truth that your spouse is hating you, but doesn't trust you enough to talk to you about it? and i don't mean like a daylong wave of anger, but if it becomes a recurring issue. if it starts eating at you inside.

i also don't agree with unleashing a verbal tirade on your child, but too often i've watched my ESFJ mom be nice and not firm enough with my brother, until she loses it and yells about how hurt she is. again, it's bottling it up for the sake of harmony and the issue becomes a ticking time bomb. if you don't want to get up in the morning, maybe it's just liking your bed a lot, but maybe it's a sign that you're depressed or really need a different job. i just think we have to be careful that we're not convincing ourselves that we're doing these things for the eventual good while losing sight of the moment.

Regarding treating the spouse with disrespect - I don't necessarily mean not saying hurtful things. Some things that are important issues to address may be painful to the other person. However if they are addressed in a solution-oriented way, a person should not just be spewing out perjoratives. By not showing disrespect, I mean doing what you feel like regardless of how it affects the other person. Not cheating on your partner even when someone attractive comes along and the relationship is not going smoothly, not lying, restraining yourself when it would be easier to say something that makes them look foolish or stupid, etc. I think it is disrespectful to not care enough about the relationship to address the problems within it. I don't believe in letting conflict go unresolved or in not defending appropriate boundaries for how you expect to be treated. However, it should be approached in a way that is solution-oriented.

In all of the aforementioned cases, the behaviour is often a symptom of a deeper problem. Of course that problem must be addressed. However, giving in to the easiest behaviour at the time is not being true to yourself and it keeps you from addressing the root cause, because you are merely coping in the short term. In the example of the child, you are right that Fe users need to be more explicit earlier on rather than just getting angry once they are at the end of their string. If you want the child to really understand what is wrong with their behaviour though, it shouldn't be done out of raw emotion when you are feeling angry either. You bring it up because that is what is in the child's best interests and it should be firm but dispassionate so that they do not confuse it with being a personal issue of you rejecting them or you losing your temper at them. With sleeping in, people need to look at their routines - how are they preparing for the next morning? Is there stress in their lives that they can impact through a change of circumstances, exercise, more sleep, talking etc? Again, I agree with you that the root cause should not go unnoticed. Either extreme - soley gritting your teeth and bearing it, or doing what you are most inclined to do are not healthy.

 

[Tallulah]

What fidelia said. I've definitely had damage caused to relationships with Fi-ers IRL because someone felt the need to unload all this stuff on me, directed at me, and I felt kind of blindsided and dumped on. In the moment, it's almost impossible for me to think about what's causing the other person's pain. I know what's causing the other person's pain, and I respect it, but I can't deal with someone yelling or having a meltdown to convey it to me. Something within me just withdraws. Now if it's something I'm witnessing with another two friends, I'm able to say to one, "Well, she's just reacting because of x. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but I think she's just frustrated..." etc. If it's directed at me, it's very, very hard for me to deal with. Like fidelia said, for you, it's over in minutes. For us, it's something that stays with us, and sometimes never really goes away, even after we've forgiven you. (And I really, really hate it when people say hurtful or exaggerated things to provoke a reaction in me.) We have to have a VERY special relationship for me to want to resolve conflicts like this on a regular basis. Otherwise, I might decide it's not worth the drama and pain. It wouldn't be an outright decision so much as a feeling of wanting to distance myself or be more casual friends or something.

 

[MacGuffin]

(And I really, really hate it when people say hurtful or exaggerated things to provoke a reaction in me.)

I just wanted to give that a

 

[Salomé]

well, the potential is that it could be hurting both of you inside.

pull back from the conversation and just look at yourself: you're struggling to attend to him; wishing one or both of you elsewhere; upholding the idea that you should have to listen to him to be a good person. but why should that be true? you could end up both really hating conversation but talking anyway to preserve... well, to preserve what? a society based on connections you don't really like anyway? you're stressing yourself out by trying to pay attention to him when you really don't want to, and wasting your own time because, despite trying, you're not genuinely interested in what he has to say.

and then look at him. he's blabbering away, thinking he has a genuine conversation partner - or he kind of suspects that you're being a bit distant/cold and is silently wondering what he did wrong, so he's talking more to try to get you really engaged. either way, he's being somewhat deceived - he's under the impression that you want to talk to him, not that you are forcing yourself to. so then his time is being wasted, too. he'd probably rather have a conversation with someone who actually wants to listen.

Well said. (What we are calling) Fe is so fucking illogical; an ultimately worthless tyranny of stupid rules. Pretense of connection is worse than no connection at all.
And if it's about doing "what you would want done to you" - that's meaninglessly egocentric if it's not what the other person wants done to them. I, for example, would much rather someone told me to STFU than smiled and nodded whilst secretly wishing I would. Most people don't want to bore others. Those that do, (or don't care), don't deserve to be indulged.

... a golden rule effort ...
it's even the more noble to do the right thing if it kills you, isn't it?

1. There is no "right" thing in this scenario. Either you spare his feelings or your own. Neither has implicit precedence.
2. It may be more "noble", but who wants to be noble and dead?

 

[Tiltyred]

You're gonna be dead anyway...

 

[MacGuffin]

Fe vs. Fi

 

[skylights]

^

I think when healthy Fe users run away, what they are attempting to do is keep from expressing unprocessed ideas that may be incorrect or may hurt the other person. They do not want to be washed over with a wave of emotion that just has to be expressed. They would like time to examine it, see if it is valid and figure out how to present that in a way that will be most readily appreciated and understood.

I think perhaps it would help NFPs if we stated straight out that we were coming back and that leaving for a little bit or distancing ourselves for a bit is not a rejection, but rather has to do with our own way of processing.

very much so

i understand the NFJ need for space so much better after reading forum comments (especially yours fidelia). the way it comes off to me (without the benefit of explanations) used to be essentially that the NFJ doesn't want me around when i disagree with them. that's part of why it comes off as somewhat selfish, i think. because it's not apparent that it's a need for time for consideration and thought unless that's voiced - otherwise it looks like the person just wants to get away from you, and that they've given up on finding a mutual solution.

and on our end, obviously it would be helpful to let you have some time and space.

[...] In all of the aforementioned cases, the behaviour is often a symptom of a deeper problem. Of course that problem must be addressed. However, giving in to the easiest behaviour at the time is not being true to yourself and it keeps you from addressing the root cause, because you are merely coping in the short term. In the example of the child, you are right that Fe users need to be more explicit earlier on rather than just getting angry once they are at the end of their string. If you want the child to really understand what is wrong with their behaviour though, it shouldn't be done out of raw emotion when you are feeling angry either. You bring it up because that is what is in the child's best interests and it should be firm but dispassionate so that they do not confuse it with being a personal issue of you rejecting them or you losing your temper at them. With sleeping in, people need to look at their routines - how are they preparing for the next morning? Is there stress in their lives that they can impact through a change of circumstances, exercise, more sleep, talking etc? Again, I agree with you that the root cause should not go unnoticed. Either extreme - soley gritting your teeth and bearing it, or doing what you are most inclined to do are not healthy.

yeah, i agree. i think this is one of those points where sophisticated Fe and sophisticated Fi end up being exactly the same - harmony with others should lead to inner harmony and harmony with oneself should lead to harmony with others. a Fi reason for disciplining a child is because they hurt you; a Fe because if you don't address their behavior they will hurt others in the future. it's actually the same reason at heart - hurting people is essentially bad. and both internal reasons and external reasons for a certain problem need to be analyzed - ideally internal analysis will lead to external analysis and vice versa. maybe we need to start at one end, but we can end up going through both required processes.

What fidelia said. I've definitely had damage caused to relationships with Fi-ers IRL because someone felt the need to unload all this stuff on me, directed at me, and I felt kind of blindsided and dumped on. In the moment, it's almost impossible for me to think about what's causing the other person's pain. I know what's causing the other person's pain, and I respect it, but I can't deal with someone yelling or having a meltdown to convey it to me. Something within me just withdraws. Now if it's something I'm witnessing with another two friends, I'm able to say to one, "Well, she's just reacting because of x. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but I think she's just frustrated..." etc. If it's directed at me, it's very, very hard for me to deal with. Like fidelia said, for you, it's over in minutes. For us, it's something that stays with us, and sometimes never really goes away, even after we've forgiven you. (And I really, really hate it when people say hurtful or exaggerated things to provoke a reaction in me.) We have to have a VERY special relationship for me to want to resolve conflicts like this on a regular basis. Otherwise, I might decide it's not worth the drama and pain. It wouldn't be an outright decision so much as a feeling of wanting to distance myself or be more casual friends or something.

this is interesting to hear. i don't want to say i'm not impacted by others being in an intensely negative emotional state, because i totally am, but i guess i don't take what an angry person says to heart as much - or at least, i take what they mean to heart, but not their exact words. emotional states actually make it easier to read people, in some ways. makes it easier to know how to help them. i've never had the same experience of emotion being unnecessary/overpowering noise - it's just like a fire alarm. kind of annoying, sure, but just means that something needs to be attended to.

question though, why does exactly what the other person says stay with you so long? this is something i don't really understand. ime, Js and TPs tend to focus SO much on specific words or phrases and not the way in which they're said, and vice versa for Fi dom/aux, and this causes a lot of misunderstanding between us. when i'm discussing a Fi issue, it's very, very hard for me to get the words perfectly right on the first try, but the emotion is always correct. so while i'm stumbling through the muddy imperfection of words (i think this translation difficulty has to do with the subjectiveness/holisticness uumlau mentioned), the other person is taking every word i say as if it's set in stone. it's very frustrating. and then if i ask them to let me work through what i have to say first, they'll complain that it's confusing that they're not supposed to take me seriously, etc... words are fluid, context-dependent, imperfect. i think with a Fi dom/aux you're just going to have to filter out exact words to a certain extent and listen to the feeling tones more. just like Fi dom/aux have to "turn down" the noise level of emotion that we pick up on and listen to your words more. let the feeling tones be what stays with you, instead of the exact words, because they're the crux of what we're trying to say.

 

[Seymour]

Just catching up on this thread, so forgive me for responding to some older stuff.

and sometimes it's something rather mean - though almost never without truth - and when it is something inflammatory, it's usually a masked desperate cry - (wow this is embarrassing to admit but) when i've said inflammatory things in the past it's sometimes because i've see the other person withdrawing and i'm angry but trying to incite them back into conversing with me, because i feel like at least if we're in contact, we can solve things together. but if they leave then there's no hope for us fixing things between us. and admittedly that's kind of terrifying from my POV (you know the NFJ "doorslam"? being on the receiving end of one of those from a significant other is like the most anxiety-ridden state i have ever been in.), but i also genuinely want both of us to get back in harmony - once i've said my peace. (and i hope they will say theirs too.)

and when i hear someone else lash out like that, i don't really think about how i need to protect myself as much as i try to fight fire with fire and figure out what's going wrong with them to make them speak/act that way. for as much as we talk about many Fi dom/auxs being selfish i feel like some Fe dom/auxs are kind of selfish in the way that they tend to run away from people when they themselves are hurt, even when the other person is obviously in a great deal of pain too. :/

I don't think I see a particular pattern in my own life of inciting or needling others to keep the contact going. Maybe it's because I'm introverted and/or a withdrawing enneagram type, but I typically want to go "offline" for processing myself.

Another motivation for withdrawing when I'm upset is that I don't want to lash out. The same things that are good for understanding another's emotional state make it easy to find emotional weaknesses and push buttons. I'd far rather avoid the damage done by a few words said in anger. I had to learn to inform my partner (for example) that I needed to take a break from talking/arguing rather than just disappearing for a bit, though. (Since withdrawing to process can be read as a door slam, instead of just a pause in the ongoing dialog.)

I also tend to withdraw if I'm in a bad mood so as not to inflict it on others. As I've gotten older, it's also become easier to stay on an even keel, and to work through things when I do get upset. I don't know if that's just general mellowing with age or something else.

So, I don't find the other withdrawing to be particularly scary. What I do fear is building up bad Fe-cred with an Fe-er because I was unaware, ignorant of the rules or just too inconsistent. Those kind of blind spots are very humbling for me to encounter.

 

[Fidelia]

skylights - I think because we put a lot of thought into the way we say things and pay a lot of attention to qualifiers and choice of words and whether or not we're invited to say things etc, we assume that when other people say certain things, they really truly mean it.

The only way we would get really blunt and even kind of mean is if the other person is really unaware and really relentless in pursuing their point or if there is a chronic and high level of frustration and it's a last ditch attempt to save the relationship by putting it all out there. I don't consciously save up another person's sins to unload on them, but sometimes if I have been very forebearing and the other person is not acknowledging that or respecting it, I will reach a breaking point where I tell them. It takes an awful lot for me to get to that point.

When it happens the other way around, I assume people are doing that for the same reason. When I find out after that they didn't even really mean those things or are feeling happy now, it hard not to feel pretty frustrated at them for just taking out their emotions on me without any regard for the impact those words have had. I wonder what other kinds of signals I am consistantly missing, what kind of a friend I am, or else what kind of chooser of friend I am.

It is devastating if you think things between you are mostly okay and then without warning get a torrent of words unleashed on you. For me anyway, I also feel an extreme amount of embarrassment and shame, as I pride myself on trying very hard to look at things from the other person's point of view and not knowingly bothering or hurting them. It makes me feel as if I have been completely unaware of the dynamics between us, or it shovels on loads of extra stuff to sort through before I can get on with giving the person what it is that they need at the time, and its hard for there not to be lingering wariness or annoyance (if it was a false alarm) even if I have forgiven them. I wonder what else there is that may come my way when I least expect it (I hate emotional surprises), or if I should tolerate being someone's emotional punching bag if they didn't really mean what they said. I do assume that anything said either in a joking manner or in the heat of emotion is the unedited version of what they truly believe about me (I don't say everything I think, particularly if it is not productive or I'm not sure it's valid or if I don't want to hurt someone I love and don't think it is best dealt with in that way) and it hurts greatly to know that I'm not safe with someone that I previously thought I was.

It's also difficult because often there is no solution in sight when a person just unloads emotion on me. I wish that they would sort through and be able to tell me what they need from me and I would do my best to accommodate and help them. Failing that, if they could have the forethought to explain that they need to emote to me to sort through it all (much like I use venting to figure out what I really think) and that some of it is just emotional noise that will eventually take the form of something more. I think that would help me to be patient and take it less personally.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh yeah - I was thinking about the disagreeing thing too, skylights. Another reason I sometimes withdraw is because I find it very uncomfortable and painful to be at odds in any way with someone I'm close to. One of the things I do when I withdraw is recalibrate and try to find where our points of similarity still are. I think Fi/Te tends to start more with points of difference and move towards similarity, so not being on the same page is not as uncomfortable of a feeling. I feel shaky and unsure if I don't know where our common ground is. I don't mind exploring differences, but I need to feel safe doing so by establishing the areas of commonality first. When someone else wants to jump straight to the areas of where we disagree, I get twitchy.

I suppose this is how Fi feels when Fe-ers want to jump in with the points we disagree with first, before everyone expressing their feelings fully and feeling understood. To us it seems more efficient to explore the stuff that's different rather than what's same. Ti feels that same insecurity with Te jumping into the differences first.

 

[Lauren]

^



very much so

i understand the NFJ need for space so much better after reading forum comments (especially yours fidelia). the way it comes off to me (without the benefit of explanations) used to be essentially that the NFJ doesn't want me around when i disagree with them. that's part of why it comes off as somewhat selfish, i think. because it's not apparent that it's a need for time for consideration and thought unless that's voiced - otherwise it looks like the person just wants to get away from you, and that they've given up on finding a mutual solution.

and on our end, obviously it would be helpful to let you have some time and space.



yeah, i agree. i think this is one of those points where sophisticated Fe and sophisticated Fi end up being exactly the same - harmony with others should lead to inner harmony and harmony with oneself should lead to harmony with others. a Fi reason for disciplining a child is because they hurt you; a Fe because if you don't address their behavior they will hurt others in the future. it's actually the same reason at heart - hurting people is essentially bad. and both internal reasons and external reasons for a certain problem need to be analyzed - ideally internal analysis will lead to external analysis and vice versa. maybe we need to start at one end, but we can end up going through both required processes.



this is interesting to hear. i don't want to say i'm not impacted by others being in an intensely negative emotional state, because i totally am, but i guess i don't take what an angry person says to heart as much - or at least, i take what they mean to heart, but not their exact words. emotional states actually make it easier to read people, in some ways. makes it easier to know how to help them. i've never had the same experience of emotion being unnecessary/overpowering noise - it's just like a fire alarm. kind of annoying, sure, but just means that something needs to be attended to.

question though, why does exactly what the other person says stay with you so long? this is something i don't really understand. ime, Js and TPs tend to focus SO much on specific words or phrases and not the way in which they're said, and vice versa for Fi dom/aux, and this causes a lot of misunderstanding between us. when i'm discussing a Fi issue, it's very, very hard for me to get the words perfectly right on the first try, but the emotion is always correct. so while i'm stumbling through the muddy imperfection of words (i think this translation difficulty has to do with the subjectiveness/holisticness uumlau mentioned), the other person is taking every word i say as if it's set in stone. it's very frustrating. and then if i ask them to let me work through what i have to say first, they'll complain that it's confusing that they're not supposed to take me seriously, etc... words are fluid, context-dependent, imperfect. i think with a Fi dom/aux you're just going to have to filter out exact words to a certain extent and listen to the feeling tones more. just like Fi dom/aux have to "turn down" the noise level of emotion that we pick up on and listen to your words more. let the feeling tones be what stays with you, instead of the exact words, because they're the crux of what we're trying to say.

I know that with a certain friend I depend on him filtering out the exact words I'm saying and instead listen to the emotion underneath the words. I don't often say (or I feel that I don't because I take great care with the words I use or I'll just stay silent until I've thought things through) exactly what I mean even if I make an effort to explain myself. I agree that words can't convey exact meaning because it's difficult to do that. Perhaps I rely on intuition from others to grasp the meaning...or trust that I will stumble along and find the words to say what I mean. I often feel like I need the other person to excuse the wrong word said here or there and think of the whole message or our entire relationship. That being said, I choose carefully the words I say and often expect that the other person will do the same. if I hear certain things being said, it's hard for me to forget them. Positive or negative. If either, and the person, I feel, is being sincere, then I will take the words to heart. If I'm in highly charged emotional situation and the other person decides to use restraint and perhaps says less than their emotions may demand (a tirade) or couches something in such a way as to not hurt me, I will always respond positiively to that. I have a difficult time forgetting something hurtful: if a person you care for can hurt you in this way once, my experience (at least with one invididual) is that they're likely to fall back into that hurtful and unproductive pattern again.

 

[Random Ness]

Question for NFs: When you get into a fight with someone, what do you do? What do you want from it? Do you want to talk things out? Understand each other? Leave it alone? Pretend it never happened?

I just recently learned that my INFP has a completely different way of coping with arguments than I do.

For me, I want us to talk about our problems and clear up any misunderstandings. The bad feelings from that argument keep coming back until I do. I want to know that either they have valid points and I should not condemn them or they are just a jerk and I shouldn't waste my sanity on them. I want to know that I've exhausted every possible tool to make amends. Just leaving an argument the way it is is unacceptable and exquisitely painful for me.

I didn't know that other people don't have this desire. My INFP refused to talk about anything with me and said it was because she didn't want to destroy our friendship. I didn't know her POV, so I thought she was purposely being avoidant and mean. Only recently did I learn that INFPs tend to be satisfied without knowing why an argument happened because they consider talking about things to be a negative waste of energy.

I admit I was frustrated because if she had just explained this to me, I wouldn't have been so mad at her, and we could have found some kind of common ground so we both could get closure. But I guess she thought I wanted the same type of closure as she did, too.

So, what do YOU do when you're in an argument with a friend? What do you wish other types would know about your argument style?

 

[Fidelia]

I identify with what you're saying RandomNess. I've found in real life and here that Fi has a different way of resolving problems, although I don't feel like I know enough to say what is happening internally for them. I just know that Fe kind of wants to get the roadblocks cleared out of the way before they can continue conversing, or else they distance themselves if the relationship really doesn't matter that much. It's like the distress caused by the misunderstanding, misinformation or interruption in the relationship makes it impossible to devote attention to anything else. I've heard Fi users say they feel like Fe lets little things linger rather than getting everything out in the open and done with. I believe we do that because when we bring something up we want to be sure that our concerns are valid and that we have thought out some possible solutions (usually which require the other person's help). Fi seems to be more of an on/off switch. It either comes out in the moment or else it gets dealt with internally. Doesn't seem to need the same external point of reference that we do to feel that an issue has been resolved. Fi users seem much better at talking it all out inside themselves. Fe users don't like not having that kind of information from the other person because it is what they use to calibrate their own thoughts and behaviours. In the absence of enough information, they can sometimes attribute wrong motives or make incorrect conclusions. I think Fi doesn't tend to understand that need because they don't process information in quite the same way. When they bring up something, it is not to either check if their own reaction is valid, nor is it to enlist the help of other people in changing the situation. (At least that's how it looks from the outside in).