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[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

PeaceBaby

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She is really quite easy to please contrary to how Fi is sounding to me in this thread right now.

Well, this is a thread of truthiness ... right? How many people do you think I am this candid with about Fi IRL? :hug:

We Fi-doms are easy to get along with ... 99% of the time at least ... so sweet and kind and nice. Really we are! :D
 

Thalassa

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babysitting? i think this is a fair Fe-Fi dividing line. Fe users tend to see universal behavior standards - so you can conceptualize "babysitting" as being a good thing, probably with rules that anyone could enforce, but to me that term seems rather insulting, as if you think you're better than everyone else because you know how we all should act and have the right to direct everyone to act your way. personally, i would prefer that you'd only babysit if it was an event you were hosting. i understand it in that case (i've hosted enough events to know :)), but if it were someone else's event - or nobody's event - i would feel that babysitting would be disrespectful to the host and to other people, in that it's an implication that people don't know how to conduct themselves in a way that is good for them, and also that they shouldn't be allowed to act otherwise.

the "baby-sitting" can be helpful, though, because there can be a person who more neutrally keeps people in the group from fighting as harshly, a peacemaker, and ...someone who helps to explain each person's side to the other...of course in that case I think of it as more of a referee

but in an event where you were a guest and someone's house and one host family member was rude to another family member and you stepped in and corrected them...well...okay..this was actually a thread on INTJforum ...if you were at someone's house and didn't know the people extremely well would you tell people within the household how to behave toward one another...

Personally, I think the obvious answer here is ABSOLUTELY NOT, and an ISFJ agreed with me. Guess who replied in the thread that they WOULD correct someone? An ENFP and an ENFJ.

And let me tell you something, I know an ESFJ who wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, either. It actually seems more Fe to me to "know better" than to correct people you don't know very well if you're a guest in their house.

Or maybe this isn't an Fi/Fe issue, but that's what this post made me think of.
 

cafe

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Well, this is a thread of truthiness ... right? How many people do you think I am this candid with about Fi IRL? :hug:

We Fi-doms are easy to get along with ... 99% of the time at least ... so sweet and kind and nice. Really we are! :D
I've actually had a hard time being fair with buying stuff for the kids because between the four of them she always acts the happiest with anything I get her. She was always giving her (and other people's) things away when she was little. And you're right -- people (and animals) just love her because she is so sweet. If I would ever mention a temper episode no one would ever believe that she would ever do anything like that. She has a much warmer vibe than I do for sure.
 

skylights

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@ marmalade - huh, well, i guess that's just specific to Fe and Fis i know. i know an ISFJ who "herds" people around. what i understood as "babysitting" is a specific type of people-directing, not in terms of just speaking up, but in terms of actively influencing people to behave in the way you want them to behave. personally if i had a serious problem with something going on i might speak up regardless of whose party it was.

you guys know i'm a fan of Fi-Fe love though. not trying to separate, just trying to clarify. it helps us all understand one another.
 

Tallulah

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Okay, this is making sense now. skylights' example was very helpful--I agree that being trampled by Fe is not ever the right solution. I think in the absence of the Fi voice in a group situation, that's the role I fill, since I speak Fe language, but there's very often some Fe user whose voice is louder than mine (my ENFJ friend, in my band situation). When the majority doesn't seem to be considering the feelings or concerns of others, and I feel like they could easily be accommodated, I'm usually the one that speaks up. Coming to a compromise that makes people feel completely overlooked will usually bite the decision makers later.

I think talking about this stuff abstractly is harder, because the Fe users are usually thinking about situations where they HAVE been listening, but there are dissenters that can't be pleased, and are attributing that to Fi. Meanwhile, Fi users are thinking of times like in skylights' example, where individuals have been trampled because the other members of the group can't be bothered, or it would make their own lives harder, and are attributing that to Fe. Like skylights points out, in real life, we're probably using a combination of the two more often than not.
 

PeaceBaby

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I think talking about this stuff abstractly is harder, because the Fe users are usually thinking about situations where they HAVE been listening, but there are dissenters that can't be pleased, and are attributing that to Fi. Meanwhile, Fi users are thinking of times like in skylights' example, where individuals have been trampled because the other members of the group can't be bothered, or it would make their own lives harder, and are attributing that to Fe. Like skylights points out, in real life, we're probably using a combination of the two more often than not.

Although I don't agree we are using a combo of Fe and Fi per se, I do agree that one would have to have insight into the typology of people involved, and try to look beyond behaviour to ascertain evidence of Fe or Fi ... it's why I try to only give examples where I feel sure of the dynamics and I think I can make a specific point.

Fe can be a loud dissenter IRL and Fi can be too ... the underpinnings of that is what's interesting to try to examine, appreciating each others POV.
 

Random Ness

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I'm confused. Do people really think nice Fe-users purposely leave people out? I always make sure all individuals are happy/participating (sometimes, for someone to be happy, they shouldn't participate).
 

Random Ness

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Psycho-analyzation help?

I was hosting a party and had planned and prepared for what I thought would be fun activities. There were two Fi users there that I know of. One of them spent a lot of time on the activities, and he didn't comment about liking or not liking them. The other one said in a whiny tone that the game was boring for multiple games. I told her, harshly, that if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate. I didn't like her attitude because 1. she's a tactful and sensitive, so such a comment was surprising, so it felt like a personal attack on my fun-making abilities and 2. it lowered the fun atmosphere (ironic since that person has Fe in socionics, which is all about atmospheres). I didn't like her behavior and left her to herself (she did, though, occupy herself). If she had simply said she didn't want to participate, I would have gone out of my way to make sure she had something to do.

Does this show Fe vs. Fi or not really?

I know one thing for sure--me leaving her to herself was my temporary-doorslam technique. When someone shocks me by doing something hurtful that I wouldn't expect them to do, I cut of all contact except forced contact with that person so I can deal with my emotions on my own. When I'm done processing my emotions, I either confront the person, or decide it's not worth bringing up anymore (in the minor example of the party, I continued to be friendly to her after the games).
 

CzeCze

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Psycho-analyzation help?

I was hosting a party and had planned and prepared for what I thought would be fun activities. There were two Fi users there that I know of. One of them spent a lot of time on the activities, and he didn't comment about liking or not liking them. The other one said in a whiny tone that the game was boring for multiple games. I told her, harshly, that if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate. I didn't like her attitude because 1. she's a tactful and sensitive, so such a comment was surprising, so it felt like a personal attack on my fun-making abilities and 2. it lowered the fun atmosphere (ironic since that person has Fe in socionics, which is all about atmospheres). I didn't like her behavior and left her to herself (she did, though, occupy herself). If she had simply said she didn't want to participate, I would have gone out of my way to make sure she had something to do.

Does this show Fe vs. Fi or not really?

I know one thing for sure--me leaving her to herself was my temporary-doorslam technique. When someone shocks me by doing something hurtful that I wouldn't expect them to do, I cut of all contact except forced contact with that person so I can deal with my emotions on my own. When I'm done processing my emotions, I either confront the person, or decide it's not worth bringing up anymore (in the minor example of the party, I continued to be friendly to her after the games).

Hee hee, that "I'm not having fun" scenario - I can understand your frustration. It probably felt like she was failing at a "duty" as a guest to at least try to keep the atmosphere civil. I'm Fi but I have had this complaint numerous times about my Fe (INTP) friend. Perhaps she is actually INFP though... Sometimes she gets into funks or starts bringing the group down and then others (like myself usually) have to start tapdancing our way around it and counter it.

For your friend though, yeah, she really didn't to play that game! LOL. Unrefined Fi without the polish of articulation or processing, it's basically the needs of a child sometime. Hey, we all have an inner child inside of us, in some ways Fi just puts the user much more in touch with them. :p I think I'm usually pretty level and diplomatic but sometimes I get this gut feeling of "yuck" or "yay!" or "boo!" and it just comes out like that. If I don't like something or I am annoyed it is very hard to mask it. Even when I try to mask it, my friends (and people I date) can tell immediately and tell me how obvious it is. Your friend probably could have articulated it better (processed that gut Fi response) but you know, she really must not have been having fun. LOL. I don't think she meant it as an attack on you at all, I'm just thinking for me, when I have those gut responses, I am so in grips of it, it's purely directed at the thing piquing me. Because her Fi got piqued, her normal tact went out the window. She could have had a ball the whole night and thought you put on the best get together ever - and that game will just be it's own separate unpleasant moment in her head.

In general, Fi users generally will try to keep it to themselves if they are in a funk. HOWEVER, people who are really in the grips of Fi won't even be aware of how much their mood or whatnot is affecting others or the group.

I told her, harshly, that if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate.

You're mean.

LOLOL.
 

CzeCze

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Psycho-analyzation help?

I was hosting a party and had planned and prepared for what I thought would be fun activities. There were two Fi users there that I know of. One of them spent a lot of time on the activities, and he didn't comment about liking or not liking them. The other one said in a whiny tone that the game was boring for multiple games. I told her, harshly, that if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate. I didn't like her attitude because 1. she's a tactful and sensitive, so such a comment was surprising, so it felt like a personal attack on my fun-making abilities and 2. it lowered the fun atmosphere (ironic since that person has Fe in socionics, which is all about atmospheres). I didn't like her behavior and left her to herself (she did, though, occupy herself). If she had simply said she didn't want to participate, I would have gone out of my way to make sure she had something to do.

Does this show Fe vs. Fi or not really?

I know one thing for sure--me leaving her to herself was my temporary-doorslam technique. When someone shocks me by doing something hurtful that I wouldn't expect them to do, I cut of all contact except forced contact with that person so I can deal with my emotions on my own. When I'm done processing my emotions, I either confront the person, or decide it's not worth bringing up anymore (in the minor example of the party, I continued to be friendly to her after the games).

Hee hee, that "I'm not having fun" scenario - I can understand your frustration. It probably felt like she was failing at a "duty" as a guest to at least try to keep the atmosphere civil. I'm Fi but I have had this complaint numerous times about my Fe (INTP) friend. Perhaps she is actually INFP though... Sometimes she gets into funks or starts bringing the group down and then others (like myself usually) have to start tapdancing our way around it and counter it.

For your friend though, yeah, she really didn't to play that game! LOL. Unrefined Fi without the polish of articulation or processing, it's basically the needs of a child sometime. Hey, we all have an inner child inside of us, in some ways Fi just puts the user much more in touch with them. :p I think I'm usually pretty level and diplomatic but sometimes I get this gut feeling of "yuck" or "yay!" or "boo!" and it just comes out like that. If I don't like something or I am annoyed it is very hard to mask it even if I'm diplomatic about it. Even when I try to mask it, my friends (and people I date) can tell immediately and tell me how obvious it is. Your friend probably could have articulated it better (processed that gut Fi response) but you know, she really must not have been having fun *with that particular game*. LOL.

I don't think she meant it as an attack on you at all or even thought of it as a reflection on you at all. I'm just thinking for me, when I have those gut responses, I am so in grips of it, it's purely directed at the thing piquing me. Because her Fi got piqued, her normal tact went out the window. She could have had a ball the whole night and thought you put on the best get together ever - and that game will just be it's own separate unpleasant moment in her head.

In general, Fi users generally will try to keep it to themselves if they are in a funk. HOWEVER, people who are really in the grips of Fi won't even be aware of how much their mood or whatnot is affecting others or the group.

I told her, harshly, that if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate.

You're mean.

LOLOL.
 

Esoteric Wench

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How Fe can effectively deal with Fi run amuck

^^^^
I think CzeCze is spot on here. When an Fi user expresses their Fi in a socially (inappropriate / clueless / tactless / honest with no fake Fe BS) kind of way, this usually has nothing to do with the people surrounding the Fi-user. Or perhaps, more correctly, if it rocks the social boat then this is not necessarily intentional. In fact, it's probably almost never intentional.

What you have to remember is that when push comes to shove, Fi is about speaking the truth. A young Fi user may not even realize why their truthiness (thank you Mr. Colbert) causes such an uproar. Your friend may have been puzzled by your irritated response. From her perspective, she was just telling you how she felt.

The above explanation, of course, doesn't excuse whinyness and immaturity. Most Fi users would not deliberately want to bring down the mood of a room full of people. For example, it is an important Fi value to me that I make everyone around me feel comfortable. So I work very hard at being aware of other people's feelings. But when I was in my early 20s I needed to practice this a lot to get it right.

Let me suggest another way you could have responded that perhaps would have satisfied you both in that you would have acknowledged her feelings (important to Fi) and still expressed your exasperation and rectified the situation. I think the key for Fe users when communicating with Fi users about an Fi driven behavior that the Fe user has a problem with, is to remind the Fi users of how what she is doing violates her Fi values. For example, instead of publicly rebuking her, you could pull her over to the side and say with empathy, "I'm sorry the game isn't working for you, but by being so vocal about it you're making it difficult for the others to enjoy themselves." I know if you had said that to me, I would have probably had to choke back my tears while I was apologizing. My guilt would have been immense. And, (I think this is an Fi thing) I would have needed 20 minutes alone in the powder room to regroup. Then I would have come out as the life of the party... determined to make everyone else as comfortable as possible.

Let me reiterate that the key points are:

  • A private reprimand. It is very easy for an Fi user to perceive that the Fe user is using the group dynamic to control them. And, it is my experience that this is a natural way Fe handles certain situations. It may seem reasonable to you, an Fe user, to do this, but you need to be aware that this is possibly the worst and most-counterproductive move you can make when trying to communicate with an Fi user. To say it is very poorly received by the Fi user is the understatement of the year. The moment the Fi user smells this, bi-directional communication is over. For the Fi user it becomes, "How dare you try to gang up on me. You are trying to control me." This diverts attention away from the original problem.
  • Refer to Other Fi Values. For the Fi user (or at least for me) there are values and then there are VALUES. Yes, me being honest about my feelings is an important value to me. But not making others uncomfortable is a far more important value. You, the Fe user, can use this to your advantage by reminding the Fi user that their behavior is conflicting with another of their Fi values. If you can do this, you'll be a black belt in Fi user inter-relations in no time.

I think Fi users speak to each other in symbolic value statements that may sound, to the Fe user, like a secret, unintelligible code. But what's really going on is Fi users referring to values (in the abstract / archetypal sense) with each other. Think of it sort of like Fi users constantly using fables to make their points. I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but maybe it will help if I tell you that I'm able to look at a situation and almost instantly crystallize it into 3 or 4 values that are in operation. I naturally (perhaps from years of practice) know which are the "Most Important" values at play. And, I work very hard to stay true to those values.

So as an Fe user, if you can figure out some of these archetypal values at play, and then refer to them, it's sort of like you're speaking Fi language. I'll get it... in a way all the finger wagging in the world won't communicate.

I hope this helps some Fe users who have asked me how to respond to an Fi user they are having problems with.

================

About the INTPs... I have several realllllly good INTP friends. But I have noticed that when they get into their "yuck, yay, or boo place" (Thank you Mr. CzeCze.) they will express these emotions at socially inappropriate times. I've never interpreted this as a lack of Fe awareness but more of a dominance of Ti-ness which can have maudlin tendencies. In other words, their Ti expressions override their social radar and they can just start kvetching in a way that it brings down the mood of the room. And, put two INTPs together that synch up their kvetching.... it is not a pretty, or pleasant sight.
 

Totenkindly

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About the INTPs... I have several realllllly good INTP friends. But I have noticed that when they get into their "yuck, yay, or boo place" (Thank you Mr. CzeCze.) they will express these emotions at socially inappropriate times. I've never interpreted this as a lack of Fe awareness but more of a dominance of Ti-ness which can have maudlin tendencies. In other words, their Ti expressions override their social radar and they can just start kvetching in a way that it brings down the mood of the room. And, put two INTPs together that synch up their kvetching.... it is not a pretty, or pleasant sight.

Well, that's definitely true.

Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]
 

Esoteric Wench

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Well, that's definitely true.

Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]

:rofl1: So true. So true. But I also love this about my INTP friends. I find it (usually) very endearing.

Jennifer, I just did a massive overhaul of my post above. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
 
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Oberon

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Well, that's definitely true.

Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]

Elder Son has a habit of logically dissecting things that Elder Daughter shouts at him the heat of the moment. The difference between them is that Elder Son wants to display why he is logically in the right and morally on the high ground, whereas Elder Daughter wants to see a smoking crater where Elder Son previously had been.
 

Random Ness

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Cool! Long replies!!!

She's done that many other times so I was questioning her sensitivity. So Fi isn't as tactful as Fe--though that should be obvious, I guess I just didn't make that connection. So she's not just mean or something--just caught up in her Fi. Thanks for the explanations!!!

I guess you're right in that Fi users need to work on noticing what their affect is on others--I'm pretty sure if I whined about games she created herself being boring multiple times, she'd be hurt, too. (And Fe users need to work on not getting butthurt when people aren't being perfectly tactful.)
 

skylights

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re party situation

DEAR GOD i tend to write a lot. condensed points:

1. your friend probably didn't mean to be so negative toward you or others - it was a personal feeling. maybe she didn't like the activity because it made her feel restricted, or put her on the spot, etc. she also probably didn't want to be left out, hence complaining instead of leaving.

2.
I was hosting a party and had planned and prepared for what I thought would be fun activities [...] if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate [...] I would have gone out of my way to make sure she had something to do.

it's a bit... well, it's like "you're going to have fun doing my activity, and if you don't, you can go away, and i will organize something else for you to do far away from me." that really doesn't sound fun to me. i think it might be a P and J thing, to some extent. as a P, i feel like fun kind of just happens. Js maybe are more interested in creating fun, which to me can feel restricting. i suspect that part of the issue is probably that she wanted to have a good time and to socialize, but your activity seemed like a barrier to fun, maybe both to herself and others.

and it just kind of seems like a lose-lose situation for her: either she has to be bored or ostracized. and yes, maybe that's her personal problem, but if she's feeling it, maybe others are too.

3. maybe she even felt like she was doing others a favor by speaking up and pointing out her opinion that the activities were boring. sometimes i'll speak up and say the thing no one else dares say, and half the room will be like OH MY GOD ME TOO. and in that case it's worth it to have said something - it's ultimately good for everyone, despite temporary discomfort.

4. i've accidentally offended others via implication too. i doubt she meant to imply you were boring. you are not your game, after all.

so i totally agree with you that Fi users need to work on better understanding the interpersonal implications of stating personal truths. no question that Fi is totally self-absorbed sometimes, and blinded by it. what i think that Fe users could try, instead of just not getting butthurt (which is hard, lol), is just to try to understand why the Fi user might have said something seemingly incongruous and harsh. like i've described, your friend was probably uncomfortable herself, plus had a sense of social consciousness where she was concerned that because she wasn't enjoying herself, others weren't either. i think that EW's idea of a private talk is good - a pointed question might be even more effective than a reprimand (sort of like a koan, thwapping the Fi user into realizing what an ass they were being). not taking Fi "truthiness" personally is something that would help, too - if she wanted to say you were boring, she'd have said you were boring, not the games.
 

Totenkindly

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Why do so many INTPs like talking about Fe? :smile:

Because for them it's like discussing antimatter, or the far side of the moon.

Revenge.
Masked as analysis.
;)


I'm still thinking a lot of stuff in this thread is part of more than just Fe and Fi. We should consider that maybe extroverts vs. introverts of either type might have similar traits. (For example, introverts really don't like being "locked into" things either, or maybe IxTx's don't like being locked into things and find presumption offensive from a more rational perspective -- "fairness" -- we don't tell other people what to do to make plans for them and violate their freedom/autonomy, how dare someone else just presume to make plans for us! And yes, it is an "offense" and often brings a kneejerk response if we've been frustrated too much in the past -- but because we typically speak of it rationally, the emotion is channeled/filtered rather than completely raw. Anyway, my point is that people can become offended by someone else's social behavior for T and "impersonal fairness" reasons, not just F reasons.)
 

cascadeco

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I'm still thinking a lot of stuff in this thread is part of more than just Fe and Fi. We should consider that maybe extroverts vs. introverts of either type might have similar traits. (For example, introverts really don't like being "locked into" things either, or maybe IxTx's don't like being locked into things and find presumption offensive from a more rational perspective -- "fairness" -- we don't tell other people what to do to make plans for them and violate their freedom/autonomy, how dare someone else just presume to make plans for us! And yes, it is an "offense" and often brings a kneejerk response if we've been frustrated too much in the past -- but because we typically speak of it rationally, the emotion is channeled/filtered rather than completely raw. Anyway, my point is that people can become offended by someone else's social behavior for T and "impersonal fairness" reasons, not just F reasons.)

I definitely agree with this.

Re. the party situations in general -- actually I think I'm hyper-sensitive to other people not enjoying themselves, and I'd probably be upset about that fact more than the fact that the person didn't want to play. I don't think I would particularly care if the other person didn't want to play along - however if the other person was really disruptive or projecting his own dislike onto the group as a whole (judging/critiquing those who ARE enjoying it), then I'd have a problem with it. But as far as the person who didn't like it? In my mind, they have a 'right' not to like it. And again - I'd probably be stressed out myself that they weren't having fun. That said - if they're not having fun at all, I'd probably wonder why they were still hanging around. Continuing to hang around being mopey (or whatever) doesn't do that person or the group any good.

Games/group activities can be tricky. I know on my end, I've always personally been really uncomfortable playing uber-extroverted games - i.e. anything having a 'charades'/acting component. I'm down with anything else, but I'll probably let it be known that I'm uncomfortable with an acting element, so that if it's a team-situation where different people can do different things, then I'll bow out of the acting piece. Or whatever. But if the entire game was very extrovert-ish? I think I'd bow out completely - even if it meant I was being a party-pooper - simply because my doing it would be an embarassment to not only myself but frankly everyone else would be embarrassed for me and believe me, I'd be doing the group a favor by NOT being on their team or playing!!! ahhahaa. I'd probably just head home or something, or else enjoy watching the rest of the people playing. :yes:
 
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