• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
The thing is, Fe people seem to think that X action means Y good intention, and Fi is operating in its own way, not according to formula. Y good intention in Fi do not come out in the prescribed X way, so Fe wants to deny the existence of Fi's good intention. In this sense, Fe is more about what actually manifests on the surface, because as long as X is shown, then it's rather assumed that it's stemming from Y good intention (although other factors may prove it to be phony), and if X is not shown, then Y good intention is questioned. This is frustrating for the Fi person.

Plus, it can be apparent when Fe-ers are "going through the motions" believing their actions a sufficient concealment of their true feelings or intent. I have observed Fe-ers in conversation, displaying the finest, most congenial smiles, head nods and eye contact, coming across like the following to me: "I will look like I am interested in what 'Joe' has to say because that's what I am supposed to do here, BUT I THINK HE'S AN IDIOT AND JUST WISH HE WOULD SHUT UP." As an FYI, the caps is what an Fi-er is likely hearing you "say" too, and this data has meaning to us. Thus, Fe actions can appear contrived well beyond the necessity of social convention. Fi, at times like this, feels like a kind of sincerity filter. Believe me, 'Joe' may very well be a tool, and I probably wish 'Joe' would shut up too, and I could easily see myself getting trapped in a conversation with him, but just looking like you care about what someone has to say is not enough to convince the whole audience. Sometimes I don't think Fe-ers "get" that fact. It's the root I suppose of why some people can accuse Fe of being "fake", even though in Fe hearts I know, there often reside wonderful, pure feelings and motives.

You're right: because Fe understands intentions as manifested through "good" or "beneficial" actions, it becomes difficult for an Fe user to trust the Fi user's presence of good intentions if they haven't been putting capital into the social bank of socially established signs of good intention as manifested through "good" results of action.

Yes, and this is how Fe is thus deceived; I can play the role and do good works or what's socially expected of me, even if my heart is contrary. Fe doesn't seem to know or care otherwise sometimes, assuming more often that because I am being good my actions are coming from a good place in my heart.

Let's hope the Ni can pick up what's really true instead, to not be so deceived.

So my question is how might we bridge this gap?

It's a good question. I think we get so close to understanding the Fi - Fe divide, but bridging the gap seems elusive.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
Well, much like Te, Fe mostly cares about action and result. Of course, Fe also wants general harmony, and will do everything within reason to ensure the greater harmony of the group. Which means that there will be a handful of people who are not 100% happy or 100% heard. Fe wants willing compromise. Often, the Fe user is not getting 100% of what he or she wants, either, but knows that sometimes sacrifices must be made in order for things to function. This extends to the intention idea. Fe knows that someone might be DOING something while BELIEVING another. Sometimes that's perfectly okay in our book, and often means more because the person willingly compromised to make the other person or the group happy. Meanwhile, a person can have great intentions, but if they didn't think about how their actions might affect others, Fe doesn't care as much about intention, because the action had the negative effect that it did. Fe users usually think about how their intention will translate into action, and how that action will affect others. When others don't do the same, we find ourselves disappointed/upset/what-have-you. It seems like the other person didn't really care if they didn't think how their actions would affect us, if there are major negative outcomes. It's kind of the Golden Rule thing, I guess.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
^ Thanks Tallulah. I don't have anything to add to what you've said, but I do think I understand the nuances you are emphasizing here.

I was just finishing dinner and contemplating that if the result is all that matters in the end, what purpose then is introverted feeling after all?

Somehow, intentions must matter. A person's interior state has some bearing. If you act from a place of insincerity and it can be detected ..... ahh, I don't know. Just rambling a bit. :)

Some of this discussion is difficult to unwind for me because I am an SO dominant. I work hard to help people get along, and I can see how important outcomes are; in some ways I undoubtedly look like Fe IRL. The overlap makes it tough to be completely objective and discerning.
 

Hopelandic

Permabanned
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
232
MBTI Type
me
^ Thanks Tallulah. I don't have anything to add to what you've said, but I do think I understand the nuances you are emphasizing here.

I was just finishing dinner and contemplating that if the result is all that matters in the end, what purpose then is introverted feeling after all?

Somehow, intentions must matter. A person's interior state has some bearing. If you act from a place of insincerity and it can be detected ..... ahh, I don't know. Just rambling a bit. :)

Some of this discussion is difficult to unwind for me because I am an SO dominant. I work hard to help people get along, and I can see how important outcomes are; in some ways I undoubtedly look like Fe IRL. The overlap makes it tough to be completely objective and discerning.

I tend to be accommodating and willing to compromise. I guess you're asking a rhetorical by asking what the point of Fi is, but i'll answer from my perspective anyway :p I think the point of Fi would be intergrity to the self. Knowing "the why" and meaning behind an action, not just the what. Ne obviously is the tool.

It's interesting, what Tallulah has said. I've seen a thread on another board by an infj about caring. She asked something along the lines of, "what good is caring if you don't show it? what's the point then? it's not really caring if you don't act on it".

Wouldn't an Fe type, have to consider intentions in order to figure out whether or not getting hurt over the person not caring about the effects of their actions is really justified? how does a fe type view inaction?

See, people not caring about the effects of their actions is important to me too. But from an fi+ne perspective, I need to analyse the source to understand what's really going on and find meaning in the action.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
Well, for one thing, it's an amazing gift when it comes to personal expression and being the "voice of the people." It's what drives artistic expression and makes people distinct from one another. Imagine poets and songwriters and artists without Fi. Sometimes that expression is what overrides the status quo and creates true change. Sometimes it's very important to go against the grain and make a bunch of people unhappy. It's just not always important to do that. I think balance and discernment is important for both Fe and Fi users. We have to pick our battles.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
It's interesting, what Tallulah has said. I've seen a thread on another board by an infj about caring. She asked something along the lines of, "what good is caring if you don't show it? what's the point then? it's not really caring if you don't act on it".

Wouldn't an Fe type, have to consider intentions in order to figure out whether or not getting hurt over the person not caring about the effects of their actions is really justified? how does a fe type view inaction?

See, people not caring about the effects of their actions is important to me too. But from an fi+ne perspective, I need to analyse the source to understand what's really going on and find meaning in the action.

Well, if we go back to skylights' earlier example, she didn't intend to cause a mess for her friend by not strictly keeping her friend's confidence. She figured since the friend had told another person herself, and since the mentor had told another person, then she was probably off the hook. When the friend found out and WAS upset, her good intentions didn't count for a lot, because the friend saw her actions as disloyal. Instead of owning up to it and apologizing immediately, she wanted to explain why what she did was still okay, because she didn't intend to cause harm. From a Fe perspective, whether she intended to cause harm was irrelevant, because she a) should have kept the confidence, and b) should have realized that the consequence that did happen was a likely outcome, anyway. Her actions DID cause harm. Explanation of intentions can sound a lot like excuses and rationalizing in times like this, which further frustrates the Fe user. It's like, "You caused harm, and you still don't GET it."
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Yeah. It's like if you accidentally physically step on my toe. I'm glad you didn't come up and stomp on my toe on purpose, but my toe still hurts. If I thought you'd do something like that on purpose, we'd never be friends but just because you didn't do it on purpose does not mean that an apology is not in order.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Tallulah said:
Instead of owning up to it and apologizing immediately, she wanted to explain why what she did was still okay, because she didn't intend to cause harm. She figured since the friend had told another person herself, and since the mentor had told another person, then she was probably off the hook.

good points.

to clarify just a bit, i didn't think it was okay - i knew i fucked up, and definitely apologized - but i wanted my friend to know that hurting her was not my planned outcome, and i wanted to make it clear that a variable that i wasn't actively controlling (my shitty memory) had interfered. i should have controlled it, but i didn't, and there was nothing i could do at that point to change that. i certainly did apologize though, and i did everything i could to heal things between us.

i also didn't think i was off the hook - but i assumed there would be a sort of cancelling out that occurred, being that my friend and i had transgressed in the same way. it wasn't about me not being guilty anymore - i certainly was - but i was surprised that she was so upset because in my mind she would understand why i did what i did, being that she did the same thing too, and once she understood, that would be the end of it. it was a very Fi concept, because i was attending to our internal feelings about it, while she was concerned with the external interpersonal implications, and while i was seeking to repair what had gone astray inside, she was seeking to repair what had gone astray outside. we were both taken aback that the other person seemed to think that their own domain was more important. i was annoyed that she was being so seemingly superficial, and she was annoyed that i was being so seemingly nearsighted.

maybe i'm wrong here - Fe dom/aux, let me know - but i feel like intentions are accounted for in Fe types in Ni and Si long before the respective actions take place. the problem with P types sometimes is that we're reactionary - we more often respond to things. Js more often plan ahead - they account for things happening ahead of time. Ps have an advantage when the unexpected occurs, but we can also be blind to things that are going to be important later. i didn't pay enough attention at the time she told me the secret to memorize exactly what it was and hold it in special confidence, and that bit me in the ass later. whereas i feel like a J would be more likely to see via Ni or Si how important those details may be in the future, and treat them differently because of that. of course, if they don't ever become important, then the J wasted time and energy, but if they do become important, then the J is less likely to make the same mistake that i did. and the FJ is likely to treat people consistently in a way that reflects what they see as being important via Ni/Si, so their intentions manifest in their consistently acting in a way that directs away from a hurt like this occurring.

b) should have realized that the consequence that did happen was a likely outcome, anyway

true. unfortunately my ability to predict likely outcomes sucks. inferior Si, shadow Ni... what i wouldn't give for it, though...

:doh:
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
just want to clarify a bit - you're close, and i agree with the points you're making, but it's a bit more nuanced -

i didn't think it was okay. i knew i fucked up. but i wanted my friend to know that hurting her was not my planned outcome, and i wanted to make it clear that a variable that i wasn't actively controlling (my shitty memory) had interfered. i should have controlled it, but i didn't, and there was nothing i could do at that point to fix that.

i also didn't think i was off the hook - but i thought there could be a sort of cancelling out that occurred, being that my friend and i had transgressed in the same way. i was surprised that she was so upset because in my mind she would understand why i did what i did, being that she did the same thing too.



you guys have the advantage of Ni :) (or Si, if you're an SFJ). my ability to predict likely outcomes sucks.

Yeah, and I don't want to misrepresent you...was just trying to recall from memory what happened, and boiled it down to the broad essence.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
^ oh crap you caught me before i edited, sorry!!

it's okay though! you got the essence of it. i just wanted to clarify a few things because i felt like they were important subtleties that related to Fi reasoning. i did own up to it and apologize too, which i wanted to make clear, which was part of why i was so confused. i thought i'd done everything right by her - but it was clear that i'd missed something important. now i understand why. :yes:
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I think the point of Fi would be intergrity to the self. Knowing "the why" and meaning behind an action, not just the what. Ne obviously is the tool.

Fe users usually think about how their intention will translate into action, and how that action will affect others. When others don't do the same, we find ourselves disappointed/upset/what-have-you. It seems like the other person didn't really care if they didn't think how their actions would affect us, if there are major negative outcomes. It's kind of the Golden Rule thing, I guess.

The problem is when Fe says there is ONE way to act, when it sticks doggedly to an approach, regardless of other approaches being just as effective. It feels like a willful misunderstanding to an INFP; the person refuses to acknowledge another possibility as just as good. I realize this might seem more SFJ, but occasionally an NFJ fails to see another angle or more often misses the details that eliminated what they see as a better option.

As Hopelandic brings out, an INFP is expressing via Ne, which means MANY possible actions & outcomes are seen, and the one which seems most appropriate to the Feeling is often chosen. One downside, is the INFP often chooses the most ideal, as opposed to the most realistic. Another downside is, the INFP is not speaking Fe language, which results in misinterpretation. FeSi doesn't know what to do with any approach that is not familiar, and FeNi seems paranoid in its interpretation at times, ready to assume the worst, and doesn't even let the action play out before jumping in and condemning it, inevitably making it bad. The readiness to form judgments too quickly is a real problem.

The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.
 

Adasta

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
393
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.

I think this strikes at the core of Fe/Fi interrelation, from what I understand of it.

As an INFP, I sometimes feel repelled by Fe dominance, although I am aware that, most of the time, that was not Fe's intended outcome. As OrangeAppled notes, the problem seems to lie in the construction of plans/outcomes by Fe which only seem to have taken account of my feelings or thoughts in a very cursory way. The problem occurs due to what I perceive to be the artificiality of it all and the reductive nature of Fe attempts to identity and control all the variables, which is what the INFP necessarily becomes. It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
^^^^ OrangeAppled and Adasta, I love the way you both have articulated this. +1000.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
OrangeAppled said:
Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual.

And this is lovely re tertiary Si ... @bold ... yes, every individual becomes "roadmapped" within the larger map of their towns, counties, states/provinces, countries ... I don't have a map that only lists the town and cities. My internal map of humanity includes every little dirt road and hamlet along the way.

Each person fits within each group, and uniquely within that group as compared to other groups, and the combination of elements within each group changes the dynamics and energy of that group. It's sometimes obvious, but often subtle. IOW, I can deal with the same people uniquely within the various contexts of our lives.

What's interesting to me is that since we moved, I have been making many new maps for these new people and groups in my life. It's surprising, challenging and kind of refreshing too to be reduced to starting from scratch with such a large portion of my life. Although, people do tend to fit patterns too, so it's not quite like starting from scratch. There's an experiential resource I can tap into as well.

It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.

Yes, nice post. I would change INFP @ bold though to another word, such as "individual" or even Fi-er ... I feel uncomfortable with a single type being labelled as some constant voice of dissension.

From a mathematical standpoint, Fe does an averaging, attempting to accommodate a majority, but to my mind simply uses less variables - some it chooses to exclude, and others that Fe does not see. Personally, I do an averaging too, but the equation includes each individual. Thus, it becomes very complicated at times, weighting everything I feel is important to include, appropriately.

^^^^ OrangeAppled and Adasta, I love the way you both have articulated this. +1000.

Agreed. :smile:
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
The problem is when Fe says there is ONE way to act, when it sticks doggedly to an approach, regardless of other approaches being just as effective. It feels like a willful misunderstanding to an INFP; the person refuses to acknowledge another possibility as just as good. I realize this might seem more SFJ, but occasionally an NFJ fails to see another angle or more often misses the details that eliminated what they see as a better option.

As neither an SFJ or and NFJ, I can only speak for myself, which may be a different perspective than what you're thinking of, but I still operate very much according to Fe. Here's how I would handle a situation in which we're all trying to come to a compromise. I would listen to all perspectives, trying to figure out which would suit the needs of the most people, or failing that, the intended purposes of the group. I would realize that this means I myself might not get exactly what I need from the compromise, but that it might be better for the group overall. I will make a suggestion as to the best solution, and if that goes over well, I'll work on making everyone happy and refining the solution, possibly including a plan to accommodate other members more fully the next time. If someone pipes up with a better alternative solution, I'm absolutely open to that. Fe, for me, is not about excluding good alternative ideas. It IS, however, about making the majority of people happy, or at least being fair.

As Hopelandic brings out, an INFP is expressing via Ne, which means MANY possible actions & outcomes are seen, and the one which seems most appropriate to the Feeling is often chosen. One downside, is the INFP often chooses the most ideal, as opposed to the most realistic. Another downside is, the INFP is not speaking Fe language, which results in misinterpretation. FeSi doesn't know what to do with any approach that is not familiar, and FeNi seems paranoid in its interpretation at times, ready to assume the worst, and doesn't even let the action play out before jumping in and condemning it, inevitably making it bad. The readiness to form judgments too quickly is a real problem.

I have no problems with Ne whatsoever. I like creative suggestions. If it's mostly about being heard and exploring possibility, I'm definitely cool with that. I'm a P, though. I do think you are right about the Fe/Si thing and staying with what's familiar--I have seen that many times. I have an ENFJ friend who is VERY opinionated and decisive. You can suggest something to her, and sometimes she's fine with it and open to trying something new. But sometimes, she'll clamp down on that idea with a NO so fast you want to slap her. She's given it no thought, but she knows it won't work, and we're not doing it. To her credit, though, if she respects you, she will usually go back later when she's alone and think about it, and then come back with a new perspective, sometimes having completely reversed the earlier decision. I can't be so J about things unless I have already Ne'd the possibilities to death. Sometimes I have to shut down suggestions made by students because, though it's my nature to be flexible and I wouldn't mind accommodating 2 or 3 people, accommodating the individual needs of 60 or 80 students would mean that I would be the one stuck doing all the extra work. I've already foreseen the outcome of those suggestions, or in some cases tried them, and it doesn't work. So I have to be less accommodating in those cases than is my nature. They will have to accept not having their ideal circumstances, but I've done my best to be as flexible as I can without burying myself in the process. It's a balancing act.

The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.

I think this strikes at the core of Fe/Fi interrelation, from what I understand of it.

As an INFP, I sometimes feel repelled by Fe dominance, although I am aware that, most of the time, that was not Fe's intended outcome. As OrangeAppled notes, the problem seems to lie in the construction of plans/outcomes by Fe which only seem to have taken account of my feelings or thoughts in a very cursory way. The problem occurs due to what I perceive to be the artificiality of it all and the reductive nature of Fe attempts to identity and control all the variables, which is what the INFP necessarily becomes. It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.

This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome? Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way? This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here. What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?

I think what's hard for me to understand is that I can't imagine there ever being a situation in which each and every member of the group felt like every shade and nuance of their opinion was validated and a solution emerged in which everyone was 100% happy. Making one person 100% happy is inevitably going to make the next person 50% happy or 2% happy or 0% happy. (Also, "happy" looks weird when you type it over and over.)

Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.
 

Adasta

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
393
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome?

It really depends on the subject. I know that I can't always get my ideal outcome in every situation, but if I consider Fe's choice to be "unwise" then it may become more difficult. This is what's tricky, because it's hard to define exactly what will cause the problem!

Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way?

Yeah, sometimes, if I'm being asked to compromise myself, rather than the situation. However, what I feel is unreasonable might seem utterly ridiculous to Fe. Things like "Why don't you just forget about feeling bad right now and just cheer up, just for this evening" is unreasonable to me because it smacks of falsity.

This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here.

In short: why do any of these other people matter? This is a very broad statement and, obviously, it doesn't apply to everyone. However, in general, I would say that Fes care for others in a way which I don't and sometimes I think they care too much. Conversely, Fe might look at Fi and say they're too inhibited and too tetchy. There's the rub.

What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?

I've no problem with compromise if the goal would benefit all of the group and I cared about what was happening. A lot of the time though, Fe is trying to people-please and I'm not really interested in it! Therefore, if something happens which marginalises me, it would cause a problem.

I think the key here is that, as an INFP, I don't care about the harmony of the group as Fe seems to. If I'm upset, I don't want to be around other people anyway, so the idea of worrying about group dynamics doesn't occur to me.

Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.

Boooooooooooooo :shrug:
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
Adasta--

Thanks for your response. I feel like we're just at an impasse, though. I do understand that there are some times when the opinions of those closest to us are far more important than those of "the masses." But what about in groups that are important to you, where the individual members are your friends? What about in groups where harmony is important for the sake of staying together long term, like in a band, a family, or a marriage?

In my band, for instance, we often disagree about what places we want to play, what songs we want to play, how often we want to gig, etc. In order for us to function well, we have to realize a) what's good for the band as a whole might not be good for one or more of us individually at the time, but b) we might get our way the next time, on a different issue, because we care about each other and want everyone to ultimately be happy/heard. One of my friends in the band sometimes wants me to stick up for her so she'll have more leverage and get what she wants. But in doing so, she's negating the fact that I also have a perspective that needs consideration.

I guess I don't understand not caring about other people's needs. Paying attention only to one's internal state and not caring about the group at all seems counterproductive, to me. How does Fi get anything done if it's rejected the idea of group dynamics?
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome? Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way? This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here. What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?

I think what's hard for me to understand is that I can't imagine there ever being a situation in which each and every member of the group felt like every shade and nuance of their opinion was validated and a solution emerged in which everyone was 100% happy. Making one person 100% happy is inevitably going to make the next person 50% happy or 2% happy or 0% happy. (Also, "happy" looks weird when you type it over and over.)

Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.
Oh, this is a perfectly natural response but isn't what I imagine was intended.

I think you'll find INFPs are naturally rebellious whenever they are/appear to be told, "You feel this" - which is how Fe can come off. Group harmony is always important to us but we define it along slightly different guidelines. Nonetheless we are rather suspicious of an oppressively utilitarian approach; INFPs fear being swept up into a chorus of agreement without our consent. We are not necessarily being precious or intentionally contrary when we resist such an approach; we just don't like when there is a specific assumption made about us. There are many general assumptions you can make about the way human beings like to be treated - these don't bother us. Its when people leap to conclusions and attempt to haphazardly assign us specific characteristics or intentions by means of some social shorthand without actually bothering to get to know us first or perhaps not even wishing to.

One of the reasons INFPs are so reactionary about this is just how often people seem to get us wrong. The reticent INFP demeanour often leads people to 'fill in the blanks' to their liking. This goes beyond simply taking me as as I appear; it is making an assumption based on the way I appear. For example: "she seems shy and quiet therefore she must be timid and lack conviction and self-esteem".
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
If you saw a chess board and had never played chess before, would you point to each square and ask which pieces can move there, or figure out what each piece is and how it can move?
 
Top