[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Tallulah]

At any rate, in regards to why people care how others perceive them...could it be embarrassment? Embarrassment that other people would think of them as "angry" or overly dramatic? I know sometimes I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me simply because I care about that individual's opinion of me. I wonder in this case if Tallulah felt embarrassed that the ENFP was perpetuating rumors that she might be an angry person? I dunno.

Hmm, that could be a possibility... will have to think about it.

Edit--I honestly don't think that's all of it, though it probably bothered me that SHE thought I was an angry person. I am a super-calm person, and I know that IRL people see me that way. And I knew when she told my friend that I was so angry, that my friend would know I'm not a seething cauldron of repressed anger, so it didn't concern me that my friend would perceive me that way. It really is like Jennifer said--the inaccuracy--that bothers me.

 

[Udog]

While it may feel like Fe formality to you, there are a lot of the beginning stages of establishing a relationship that we haven't even begun to do. I mean, if we knew each other in real life, I'd put us at an acquaintance stage. I know your real name, what type your husband is, what you look like, and I've seen a few of your interactions on here. That is not enough information for me to base a deep, deep friendship on.

^ thanks for that fidelia. I respect your expression and where you are. You're being honest and that's as much as I would hope for. I don't have any questions about it, because I don't want to pry further, and it makes me glad that you've shared as much as you have.

[...]

That being said, I'm not trying to skip past anything in the formation of a friendship ... for you and I, I am aware it would take a lot of time. I'm open to that though, so you can consider it an invitation you can RSVP to at any time, and I look forward to getting to know you better too, as you feel is right for you.

I'm not sure if this post is going to be 100% BS or if I'm onto something, so please keep that in mind. If I'm dead wrong here, call me out on it!

I think this is a pretty enlightening example of Fe vs Fi in action. Even in the above exchange, where both PB and Fidelia are being admirably honest, it seems to me that there is still a disconnect. (Although very possibly only a slight one.)

Fe has steps, and needs to undergo a procession in getting to know someone. It's sometimes like an elaborate dance, and each correct step of the dance works towards deeper layers and depth. On the other hand, two Fi users are more apt to keep each other on polite surface levels until they find that Fi-Fi connection that will allow them to take the direct pathway to the other person's core. (Hence the "journey" metaphor.)

With Fe-Fi, you have one person trying to build a relationship via a process, and the other trying to build a relationship by deep connection. There are numerable ways this can go awry.

So, using the above:

Fidelia is saying, "we are at a stage of our interaction where I consider us acquaintances", and seems to be saying that deep friendship, and it's associated incidental revelations, are still many steps away. Fidelia can't (or won't) give PB the deep level honesty PB desires. On the other hand, PB understands and respects this, but then offers a passive RSVP for friendship instead of re-engaging Fidelia at the level of acquaintanceship and building a friendship from there (after which Fidelia may eventually feel more comfortable opening up).

Anyway, relevance ... there's a lot of factors that go into how friendships develop and to what degree.

Even in the above example, though, I wouldn't tell a guy about the exciting changes I'm planning on making in my life just because we inappropriately oogled the same girl. It might be a start, though, cuz us guys do love our inappropriate oogling!!

 

[Thalassa]

I'm not sure if this post is going to be 100% BS or if I'm onto something, so please keep that in mind. If I'm dead wrong here, call me out on it!

I think this is a pretty enlightening example of Fe vs Fi in action. Even in the above exchange, where both PB and Fidelia are being admirably honest, it seems to me that there is still a disconnect. (Although very possibly only a slight one.)

Fe has steps, and needs to undergo a procession in getting to know someone. It's sometimes like an elaborate dance, and each correct step of the dance works towards deeper layers and depth. On the other hand, two Fi users are more apt to keep each other on polite surface levels until they find that Fi-Fi connection that will allow them to take the direct pathway to the other person's core. (Hence the "journey" metaphor.)

With Fe-Fi, you have one person trying to build a relationship via a process, and the other trying to build a relationship by deep connection. There are numerable ways this can go awry.

So, using the above:

Fidelia is saying, "we are at a stage of our interaction where I consider us acquaintances", and seems to be saying that deep friendship, and it's associated incidental revelations, are still many steps away. Fidelia can't (or won't) give PB the deep level honesty PB desires. On the other hand, PB understands and respects this, but then offers a passive RSVP for friendship instead of re-engaging Fidelia at the level of acquaintanceship and building a friendship from there (after which Fidelia may eventually feel more comfortable opening up).

I don't know if this is Fi/Fe or not (again!) I have noticed, IME, that INFJs are very guarded emotionally. That is, they aren't going to let you in easily. This may be due to the process or "steps" thing, I don't know.

I've had people IRL tell me I'm guarded or mysterious or reserved though. I'll talk about things very openly with particular individuals - and I find the fact that I can express myself in writing on the Internet makes me pretty open about things I normally might not be. I actually got really pissed at someone on-line because he presumed to know me so well that he thought he knew who I was better than I knew myself, even though I'd never met him in person.

On the other hand, it seems like I'll just pick particular people and seem to randomly decide to form a strong connection with them. But in my mind, it's not random at all. Maybe that's what you mean when you're talking about the difference between Fidelia's Fe and PB's Fi. Where as Fidelia sees it as a process, PB with her Fi will seem to randomly choose to strongly connect, but really it's just Fi's way of forming closer friendships and relationships.

I don't know if what i said even makes sense.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't know if this is Fi/Fe or not (again!) I have noticed, IME, that INFJs are very guarded emotionally. That is, they aren't going to let you in easily. This may be due to the process or "steps" thing, I don't know.

I'd expand that to IFJ. Maybe the steps are more obvious for ISFJ, but they're still there. If you don't have the right "key" / role in the relationship, you only get so far; and you still have to walk through the steps to prove yourself. They'll be very cordial, but there are still requirements to meet before getting "deep" access; you can't just leap into the core.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Fidelia is saying, "we are at a stage of our interaction where I consider us acquaintances", and seems to be saying that deep friendship, and it's associated incidental revelations, are still many steps away. Fidelia can't (or won't) give PB the deep level honesty PB desires. On the other hand, PB understands and respects this, but then offers a passive RSVP for friendship instead of re-engaging Fidelia at the level of acquaintanceship and building a friendship from there (after which Fidelia may eventually feel more comfortable opening up).

The only part I specifically disagree with is the passivity on my part. I will keep trying to engage at the acquaintance level, but I feel the blocks between us.

I recognize that fidelia is in control of how much she allows me to proceed, so my statement is more of an acknowledgement that she is driving the car here.

 

[Thalassa]

I recognize that fidelia is in control of how much she allows me to proceed, so my statement is more of an acknowledgement that she is driving the car here.

Is this an IxxJ thing, in general?

 

[cascadeco]

I recognize that fidelia is in control of how much she allows me to proceed, so my statement is more of an acknowledgement that she is driving the car here.

Is this an IxxJ thing, in general?

I can't speak of fidelia or this particular situation, but from my own viewpoint, if I want to deepen a relationship, and desire that, I will, and if I don't, I won't. I don't really see myself in the role/capacity of 'allowing someone to proceed' -- I mean, they are, after all, their own person and can do whatever they want and be as open as they'd like, or whatever. It's just that on my end, I may have no interest in reciprocating in the same way. So yes, in that sense, my own choice is thereby setting some sort of vibe as to the nature of the relationship. I guess I never saw this as something tied to any one personality type, though -- I mean, each and every one of us desires relationships with some, and don't go deep with others. And, obviously the pacing is going to vary pretty greatly from one to another; but even for myself, I can't even say pacing is that cut and dry - it's highly dependent on the other person and how the connection between us starts off and whether it flows or not. I dunno.

 

[Amargith]

I actually do agree with Udog on this. And I udnerstand PB's description of driving the car.

As much as I've learned to Fe it when I need to be in agroup or get to a goal via a group, allowing for the acquaintances phase and perhaps even final stop, when I'm *genuinly* interested in someone, they drive the car.

What I mean by that is...I tend to want to jump ahead. And I've found that what I consider to be a starting point of a relationship is for them already far into the relationship...it's only once we're at a serious friendship level, that I'll start pacing myself and testing to see if they're best friend material...even soulmate material and perhaps..(if male) lifepartner material. Since many will already hit the brakes long before I do, I usually know what I want already way before they've even gotten their heads around the potential that's there between us. And in most cases, I'm ok with way more intimacy than they are.


So yeah..they get to dictate where the boundaries go and how fast we go, since otherwise, I'd be ruining it anyways and making them uncomfortable.

 

[Thalassa]

when I'm *genuinly* interested in someone, they drive the car.

What I mean by that is...I tend to want to jump ahead. And I've found that what I consider to be a starting point of a relationship is for them already far into the relationship...it's only once we're at a serious friendship level, that I'll start pacing myself and testing to see if they're best friend material...even soulmate material and perhaps..(if male) lifepartner material. Since many will already hit the brakes long before I do, I usually know what I want already way before they've even gotten their heads around the potential that's there between us. And in most cases, I'm ok with way more intimacy than they are.


So yeah..they get to dictate where the boundaries go and how fast we go, since otherwise, I'd be ruining it anyways and making them uncomfortable.

I relate to this.

 

[Fidelia]

Udog's post resonated with me. Cascedeco describes my feelings on it exactly. It's not that I dislike being friends, but what if I'm at the top end of my capacity maintaining relationship with closer friends and I want some acquaintance friends? Or what if there are other people that I end up immediately connecting with? It still feels like it's an assumption that we're in the car together sharing the same destination. Just because I'm driving my own car, doesn't mean that she isn't free to also drive hers to wherever she would like to be. It feels like an assumption that we must be in the same car, or that choosing to keep things on a lower level of depth is somehow a judgement on the other person or on my feelings about them. Sometimes it's timing, sometimes it's having enough in common, sometimes things change along the way. It seems to me like PeaceBaby either feels rejected if I don't want to take that journey with her specifically, or that she feels like I have too many gates and sometime when I can summon the courage to let people through them, all will be well and she'll be there waiting. While I appreciate the openess, it bothers me because I still feel like she doesn't get what I'm saying.

Right now, I am browsing in the store. I want to better understand the product they are selling. I've not committed to buying at that store. In fact, I'd like to visit several different ones to see if there is conflicting information or if what one says confirms the other. I'm on a fact-finding mission. I feel like she's trying to get me to seal the deal, when buying something is not even my objective. I want to know how to relate better to Fi people that I love. I'm not asking to go on a Fi journey with just anyone, even if they're a wonderful person. That's no judgement on her. It's not about me having walls up that are hard to get through. It's just not what my initial intent is. That may change, but it makes me feel pressured and obligated, much like if the clerk were to say, "I'll just put this dress away for you in case you decide to come back and buy it". I don't want her to. It's not a bad dress. I'm just not buying dresses right now. I may change my mind later, but right now, I'm not in the market.

 

[Amargith]

I don't think PB is taking it personally

Funny...maybe other Fi-users aren't going to agree with this, but...

Fidelia is talking about how she's at the top of her what she can maintain, relationship-wise. I instantly went...'Why does that matter?'

I guess in a way, to me, Fi is about intimately connecting in the moment. Kinda like a one-night stand with a guy you really like and trust. Just..in the moment. It's intimate, intense, and soothing..but there are no other expectations after that night. There has to be trust as there's a great deal of vulnerability that comes into play. There's just that special moment you share. And perhaps, if things went really good and you both like the idea of it, you could make it a more regular thing. And from there on, it could turn into the full blown thing. But that expectation isn't there from the beginning. And neither is the expectation of maintenance. It's just sharing a really intense experience and gaining a new way of looking at things..It's enriching to both parties, but not binding in any way.

 

[Fidelia]

Wow Tallulah's post before last was pretty much all sentiments that I share. I really think what I find most upsetting is the inaccuracy. I am my ideas mostly. They are a big part of me. Therefore if you misunderstand them completely, it's going to make me feel like you really don't understand me, which makes it difficult for us to connect. That's true even about factual stuff.

For example, someone wrote up a little blurb once to introduce me to a group of people. They were a person whose heart I had no question about and whom I truly valued. After they introduced me in print(with about four errors), I let them know about 1 or 2 although I didn't want to hurt their feelings. I just thought if I were them I'd want to know, particularly if we are friends. They just laughed it off and didn't change them. I didn't want to make an issue of it, so I didn't, but I still wish I could change it, rather than having people still be misinformed.

Oh and skylights, that was a great post. Lots of stuff to go back over and answer. I will do it sometime today, but am teaching for the evening. I don't want to lose any of those thoughts though! In answer to the one thing - no, it's not that I think I'm deep and complex or that others can't handle me. I just think that Fe honesty and Fi honesty are different. I don't want to go around hurting someone with my Fe honesty, yet I am unlikely to feel truly close to someone unless I can be 100% me, even at my most unvarnished, frustrated or harsh. I don't exercise that on people close to me often, but of the maybe 4 people or so I've ever done that with, getting through that successfully is what allowed them into the very most inner chambers of my heart.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think PB is taking it personally

Funny...maybe other Fi-users aren't going to agree with this, but...

Fidelia is talking about how she's at the top of her what she can maintain, relationship-wise. I instantly went...'Why does that matter?'

I guess in a way, to me, Fi is about intimately connecting in the moment. Kinda like a one-night stand with a guy you really like and trust. Just..in the moment. It's intimate, intense, and soothing..but there are no other expectations after that night. There has to be trust as there's a great deal of vulnerability that comes into play. There's just that special moment you share. And perhaps, if things went really good and you both like the idea of it, you could make it a more regular thing. And from there on, it could turn into the full blown thing. But that expectation isn't there from the beginning. And neither is the expectation of maintenance. It's just sharing a really intense experience and gaining a new way of looking at things..It's enriching to both parties, but not binding in any way.

Really? I don't have any relationships in my life like this. In fact, it doesn't even sound appealing to me. I've had people that I've enjoyed hanging out with intensely for a short time, knowing that they aren't going to be lifelong friends, but I wouldn't share much of myself with them in that way.

Good to know...

 

[PeaceBaby]

Satine has it; no it's not personal, and yes, it is about this moment.

Although, I will pull a classic INFP here and wonder if I've done anything to have precipitated this decision to not go further. I could hardly call myself an INFP if I didn't self-analyze to see if I did something here or in the past to have found myself in this position.

And, I wouldn't really classify this as a "one-night stand" but I would say, that - in this thread, on this topic, I would go farther; so in that sense, the metaphor works. I too look for longevity and depth in relationships, but on certain topical issues, would go deep and have no expectation beyond that.

 

[Amargith]

Really? I don't have any relationships in my life like this. In fact, it doesn't even sound appealing to me. I've had people that I've enjoyed hanging out with intensely for a short time, knowing that they aren't going to be lifelong friends, but I wouldn't share much of myself with them in that way.

Good to know...

Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna go back to being strangers the next day. I'd still acknowledge your presence and smile and even treasure that special feeling you invoke in me coz we *did* share something. Something worthwile. There is respect and trust...and i will be there for you if you need help, but it's not like I wanna move in with you or make you an integral part of my life...

And in that way it's very much like fuckbuddies, or one night stands, I'd say.

And I'll share that part of me coz it makes me feel good and hopefully does the same for you. To take away, if only temporarily, the pain, sadness, loneliness, and god knows what other negative emotiosn we're bombarded with daily, and go exploring some good emotions

I might give you a tiny piece of my heart..a silly little secret about me, to show my trust, and to teach you something, either about me or about the world and *hope* you'll do the same for me, so I can see who you are..understand you better and the way you view the world.

Consider it a time spent in a fantasy world. You know you have to go back to reality at some point, but right at that point, there's nothing in this world but you and me and the world we create together

Consider it a dream...you have to wake up eventually, yes...but you might as well enjoy it while it lasts

 

[Tiltyred]

The more we talk, the more Fi seems bizarre to me.

 

[Fidelia]

Sorry, it's just not how I roll. Even the thought of it makes me feel twitchy.

If I share information for any other reason than being close to the person, it is merely to put the other person at ease or to see if there is potential for moving the relationship closer through mutual sharing.

 

[cascadeco]

I guess in a way, to me, Fi is about intimately connecting in the moment. Kinda like a one-night stand with a guy you really like and trust. Just..in the moment. It's intimate, intense, and soothing..but there are no other expectations after that night. There has to be trust as there's a great deal of vulnerability that comes into play. There's just that special moment you share. And perhaps, if things went really good and you both like the idea of it, you could make it a more regular thing. And from there on, it could turn into the full blown thing. But that expectation isn't there from the beginning. And neither is the expectation of maintenance. It's just sharing a really intense experience and gaining a new way of looking at things..It's enriching to both parties, but not binding in any way.

Really? I don't have any relationships in my life like this. In fact, it doesn't even sound appealing to me. I've had people that I've enjoyed hanging out with intensely for a short time, knowing that they aren't going to be lifelong friends, but I wouldn't share much of myself with them in that way.

Good to know...

haha.. yeah, I reacted similarly.

I think this is where my pragmatism in relationships comes out.... I'll be frank, I tend not to see the *point* of an in-the-moment intensity/sharing thing. And I'm not that interested. For me, I'm about building, maintaining, and investing in longterm relationships - relationships that I believe can last. Also, for me to want to share deeply with someone and be really open/vulnerable, or whatever, it means I'm already to a point where I want them in my life for the long run - I share *because* I value the relationship and am already emotionally or relationally involved with them, and therefore want to get closer, and hope for that to continue and intend on my end to invest in it. I am sort of an all or nothing person when it comes to relationships. And to be frank again, I *would* have expectations that things would continue on afterwards. Perhaps this is why I would be/ am quite distrustful of the more typically 'P' approach of.. ok, let's just enjoy the moment and maybe things will continue or maybe on the other hand it'll just be an intense-moment-thing and that's that.....

Basically I don't approach relationships/connections in any way remotely resembling what Satine describes.

 

[Amargith]

*smiles*

It is why I don't have a problem hugging someone I do not know when I notice they're in intense pain and they need a hug..and nobody is there for them. I'll just jump past all those social niceties and steps, to get to the point...take away their pain. And I might share something with them at that point I've never told anyone before, becoz it's what will make us connect and ultimately, hopefully, will be helpful to them in that moment.

I won't see them again after that, most likely as we are total strangers. But at least, at that point, at that time, I'm able to take away their pain and agony..and hopefully offer them something that will help them through that difficult time (especially if they have no one in their lives to turn to for this).


And PB, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason why PB offered Fidelia this 'journey' is becoz she knows Fidelia has been looking for answers, looking to understand for a *long* time. She's just trying to help you, using this method

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ maybe some of this is enneagram-related too; I wouldn't take Satine's metaphor to the extreme for myself. As an sx, Satine is primed to make those intense connections even more so.