There are 4 ways to put out a fire:
1.) Starvation - removal of the fuel
2.) Smothering - exclusion of the oxygen
3.) Cooling - reducing heat, with substances such as water
4.) Inhibition of the combustion reaction - breaking the fuel, heat, oxygen chain reaction.
Where would Fi users focus on putting out the emo-fire? Where would Fe users?
Me, I would focus on 3 and 4 - I wouldn't try to smother it (#2), because I know emo-fires burn hotter when someone is trying to suppress them.
In many ways, I understand where my INFP mom is coming from (because I analyze it a ton and try to make an effort) much more than she knows where I am coming from. I told her some of the that really bothers me about our relationship over and over and over but she pretty much discounts it almost every time and boils it down to "hormones" and "tiredness" (or "he's just being a jerk because I didn't do anything wrong" or "I was just trying to help" whenever my dad gets mad). Maybe Fe seems superficial in general and Fi deep but it makes me think that it comes down to individual differences. But then again, she isn't very intellectual (by no means is she dumb) and doesn't like to analyze things. She would probably be like "you guys think too much" if she came on this site.
lol. my mom too (she's ESFJ). i mean she's really smart too, but this all would probably be unappealing to her. anyway, what's confusing to me often is that i see intention as more important than end result - because i can't control end result, but i can control my intentions. and so i explain my intentions, so the other person understands that i meant no harm to them, but then sometimes they get upset with me for trying to "make excuses". but to me it's not excuse... it's the core problem... and it's not at all to say that i'm not sorry that the end result has turned out shitty, or that i played a part in it, but i try to clarify that i didn't want disharmony. even though it happened. so i'm not trying to excuse your mom or anything, but maybe that's part of what she's doing, too - seeing it from the lens of intention and missing how her actions played an integral part in leading to a result.
Do none of you people have jobs?
freeeeeeeeeelancing
I have found that many of my F friends believe that if you just continue to talk to someone, you can eventually make some sort of connection or make up in some way. I have not had that experience; I don't know whether my perspective is Fe or simply T, but from childhood I've just had some really formative relationships where people simply were not reasonable although I bent over backwards, so at this point I'm used to seeing where things are going based on the type and degree of resistance expressed earlier in the conflict, and often I just see it as futile.
There is little to do but just suck it up... and it just makes even harder when the other person doesn't even seem to be aware of the amount of damage they can do to me on a deep level by remarks that end up seeming to mean little to them.
haha wow, this is really true for me. i always feel like if two people try to work through their problems, eventually they'll get somewhere - and it really displeases me to have bad relationships with anyone, so it's hard for me to cut people off... somewhere it bothers me because i know it's not how, in my Truth, things should be.
i also accidentally say things in the heat of the moment that are
really caustic with the intention of protecting myself, because the other person feels threatening to me, and that's a surefire way to disarm. the irony is that i'm so blinded by the need to get my point across, because i feel like there's a wall between myself and the other person that is preventing harmony, that i end up saying something that completely destroys the harmony - and, in their eyes, can destroy any chance of ever having it.
i don't really understand why anyone would want to ever shut anyone out permanently though... unless they're like a murderer or something... i feel like people should always have a chance for redemption. though i certainly understand generally keeping away from someone you don't really like.
Well, that pretty describes the reason I've been a bit emo in some of this thread. I feel like my positive goodwill and motivations are easily discredited or labeled as "superficial" because they're Fe-related in mentality.
yeah. i think it puts me immediately on edge to know that Ne is seen as superficial and quickly discredited by many Ni users, too, and from that lens i understand how frustrating it must be for Fe to be seen as superficial by some Fi users. at the same time, it's funny that you say positive goodwill, because, while i totally trust that you have that, i feel like i keep hearing in this thread from Fe users that intention shouldn't matter, only how you act. and that's an idea that's going to take me a
really, really long time for me to approach.
I'm kind of going out on a limb here by being this honest. I'm still not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I think that is more respectful to you from what I am hearing all of you Fi users saying.
yeah. it's how we communicate at the deepest level, i think. being kind and preserving external harmony drops in priority to being ridiculously honest about what you believe. it's our way of showing kindness and striving for harmony. thanks for trying to communicate the way we do.
I know you don't mean it that way, but it really feels condescending, like you have found the perfect way to communicate and you are going to teach us. I expect that similarly, we maybe make you feel frustrated in doing something that we are unconscious of. If that is the case, I'd like to better understand that. [...] I feel irked when people say things like, "So what I am hearing you say is". It feels like I am visiting some kind of doctor, not having a conversation.
tbh, active listening in adhering to a format bothers me. it's awkward as hell. i agree - i, ironically, feel like the other person isn't actually
listening, i feel like they're filling out a form. it needs to be tempered with variety and the smoothness of regular conversation.
It is important to non-judgementally gather information, ask questions to make sure we have accurately understood what was said, that we don't make assumptions and that we double check our perceptions before reacting.
When anyone has challenged your perceptions, you retreat right away to saying that it is either that they are not actively listening, that Fi is difficult to express and you took a lot of time and effort to do so, or that you see a deeper vision of the world than they do. That feels dismissive.
No one is trying to keep you from saying how you see things, or pull you back to a Fe outlook as the one right way. It is possible though that when they ask you more or challenging it, they are trying to better understand where you are coming from.
i think one problem that might come into play is that sometimes people see - or at least focus - on a different point than the one that i'm trying to communicate, which is actually great for perspective, but when they bypass acknowledging my point (or just saying they're not sure you see my point) and jump to challenging me - or, worse, not even responding (though i understand how this one is kind of different in an online forum), it registers on some really deep level that they haven't made an effort to connect with me - which, on the surface, feels like they're going on the attack - so i go on the defense, seeking for them to see my point. the thing that active listening does that i think is pleasing for Fi is that it makes the other person show that they're openly trying to be on the same page as me before moving on.
when someone go right to questioning, i can mistakenly interpret that as someone judging before understanding. i think that to me it's just not clear that they're simply seeking more information, instead of questioning my values.
I am just laughing because you're stepping on my toes too. I mean, that last paragraph, for example, I felt waves of pretention by the wording you chose. I don't think you meant that, though; it's just what it triggered when it reached me.
it felt a bit pretentious to me too ._. no offense though PB, i see how you meant it (and it was rather pleasing artisically) and i agree that it feels like Fe always wants to be in the driver's seat, even in Fi territory.
That reminds me, what if you do hurt someone though?
A Fi-user said to me (I'm paraphrasing) that Fe-users disregard what is meant (intent) and focus on the tangible (form). I don't know if "form" is the right word, but I do think Fe-users focus on the results of emotional interaction and do think the intentions of others are secondary.
Does intent really outweigh results for Fi-users?
holy crap, absolutely - at least me personally. it's the matter of control. i control my intentions 100%. my actions are tainted with other forces in the external world. thus it's logical to me that i should be more responsible for what i can control. why hold me more accountable for something that was, in part, out of my control, and dismiss what i do have control over? i understand that the result is reality, and thus in some sense more important, but i still can't totally control it.
I do dislike when I'm read wrong, aka assigned a motivation/intent I did not have, when I hurt someone's feelings. My response is to take back what I've said/written, because obviously there was a communication failure. But with Fi-users that doesn't seem to work very often, because the misidentified intent still remains and I'm unsure how to correct that. As a (weak) Fe-user it's like a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't-trap.
yeah, i've heard this a few times, and it's confusing to me because i do think intention is of greatest importance... actually i think maybe sometimes there's a value breach that lies even deeper than intention that we judge on.
for example, i recently got a very expensive dress for an important upcoming event, and was really excited about showing it to a friend. she'd gotten one a while before and, while it wasn't really my taste, it was well-suited to her. i admired and appreciated it extensively for what it was, even though it was not appealing to me personally, because she is my friend and i value her perspective. and i do find it appealing, as it fits her personality. i wasn't being fake at all.
flash forward a few months, i send her a picture of mine, which i am
so excited about, and her first response is to say that her mom has a similar dress except it's fancier and more expensive. i was
pissed off! i didn't even like her dress, but i made an effort to see it through her eyes because i respect her. her first response to this thing that i had put so much time and thought and money into, and that i saw as a reflection of myself, was to imply that it was inferior. when i told her that i knew she didn't mean it but that comment hurt me, she said that it wasn't her intention to devalue it, that she was only relating it to something she knew, but later she implied that i would get better dresses in the future. i still have trouble getting over the fact that she didn't even try to see something positive about something i cared so much about when i went out of my way to do it for her. in this case, it's the underlying sense of values that gets to me - that she doesn't care enough about me to try to take care of my sense of self and to see things through my perspective, as i go out of my way to do for her.
BlackCat said:
I always saw these kinds of things as someone seeing if their feelings are shared by others; to express it publicly. To validate their feelings. They may not feel that everyone involved really understands how they felt. Once again with the perceiver thing, always taking in information about an issue.
this is an excellent point. there's also just something slightly deceptive about going to someone in private, to me. like you can be the only one controlling them. in public, others have their say too.
First off, this is the internet. You can act however the hell you want and get away with it.
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